EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

In the past 5 years have you purchased your dogs or were they off of your own stock?

I've raised my own for over 20 years. Started with a cross and have been line breeding since.

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I've bought most of my dogs. My catahoula gyp just came in and hopefully breeding to my hunting partners Mtn. Cur. So hopefully that will be the start of my own line.

Both dogs hunt and have great attributes. I've always wanted my own line of dogs and finally have a good pair to start with.

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I’ve only bought dogs, but I hope to change that soon. I have tried to learn as much as I can from people on this board, and try to be a student of dogs and hunting. My end goal is to breed a line of dogs that work for me and the few people I hunt with. My two pups I have now are the only line bred dogs I’ve ever had so I’m hoping that they will be a good foundation for me to start with.


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My Gyp(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191202/5b7ca5c7f1d98a3b01ea0bbdbe09abe6.jpg)

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Nice looking bitch Bowtech

Thanks @TheRednose, hopefully she'll take, her heats have been elusive. Barely any signs she comes in but a little spotting. Fingers crossed.

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I’ve been line breeding mine for 10 years now... 6 generations down from the two I started with.

Mike with that being said do you think that if someone got a pup off your dogs and a pup off some dogs down the road and cross them that you would consider them that persons "bloodline"? I feel there is alot of this "thats my bloodline " of dogs going around just because they've bred a pair of dogs.

No, I don’t think a one time cross is considered a bloodline. I’m really not even sure qualifies a set of dogs being considered a person’s bloodline.

Rafterbark I want to hear his thoughts on that too. I personally don't think that in that situation the person can say they have a "Bloodline". They have dogs that aren't line bred. If they start lone breeding those dogs then yes in a couple generations they could say it. But if they keep breeding those dogs but not line breeding, then all they have are scatter bred dogs. It doesn't matter if they were even registered dogs. If they aren't related then they are still scatter bred. "Bloodline" suggests gene potency. It means dogs that come with uniformity and consistency in a multitude of areas because the genes were isolated or intentional selected. That is EXTREMELY hard to do when you breed unrelated dogs. If they get 2 dogs that are related, line bred and raise a litter then again, they have dogs. It's a bloodline but it is a bloodline that they have but not their bloodline. In a couple generations down the road it becomes theirs. The dogs likely start changing in a couple generations for several possible reasons unless the original breeder is having an influence in it. JMO! Most of the folks you are speaking of either don't know the difference because of lack of experience or they are glory hounds. I personally don't care if someone tells people that the dogs they got from me are their bloodline. Mainly because those types are gonna screw them up pretty quick and it's better if everyone thinks they were theirs and my mutts aren't reflected upon negatively. Again JMO

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I agree. Its seems that because you cross a dog up and even breed some of the pups off that litter people are considering it their bloodline. No its a cross that you did on your yard is all.

t-dog  this statement right here is GOLD. " JMO! Most of the folks you are speaking of either don't know the difference because of lack of experience or they are glory hounds"

Not written as a rule anywhere but generally accepted that 3 gens after the initial outcross without any more outside influence would be a line or your strain of dogs. Not sure there even is a true definition.    I do agree with you guys that just because you raised pups at your house that they would be considered "your" "line" of dogs. They would just be dogs you had bred and raised and potentially could be where your "line" of dogs started.

He is a real scenario and I have seen it more than a few times...someone is advertising a line of registered dogs and has a kennel name...they will have 20 or more dogs at any given time...and when inquiring we find out they have 4 or 5 different bloodlines and it is normal for them to sell pups never really intending to create their own line it seems...we see the kennel name and we assume it is a strain or bloodline...

Another scenario and using a fictitious famous kennel name...

Joe Lyon passes away 25 years ago and he developed a superior line of cur dogs and they were known as the Lyonheart  curs...he had that line of dogs for 40 years and 25 years after joe lyons passed away many folks will say they have the lyonheart cur bloodline...

There may be some dogs out there that are excellent lyonheart dogs and there just might be someone who took that bloodline and took it to a higher level...

But day in and day out many claiming that they have the bloodline in reality have it watered down...Joe Lyons was well known for a reason...he had an eye for a dog that had all the qualities of a great hunting dog and only bred the very best...he also had a knack for selecting the right pups and he put a lot of time and effort in producing the very best...

I also believe three generations of solid hunting dogs...dogs that are related and produce good hunting dogs...

I do and have bred my own for quite sometime now but I don't believe that they will ever really be my own line as I have not made any out-crossess that I have bred back into the original line that I started with....at least not yet, we have 1 male dog still alive out of an outcross I made a few years back, lord willing he will stay that way until i can get him bred back into this line as he and both of his brothers were/are all above average hunters. While I have done the breeding and raising of what I have I am more of an extension of the man I originally got em froms yard...... if it ain't broke  dont fix it  ;)

I have been lucky enough to have a kennel full of dogs that I have bred and raised. I have been line breeding for the last 10 years. Part of my dogs lineage goes back to some dogs from Louisiana about 15 years ago and the rest from Georgia about 20 years ago. Both lines where already line bred. Was lucky enough to put the dogs together and have some excellent litters thru the years. They are not registered(although they could be). I don’t need papers to tell me what they are or where they came from. I don’t buy and sell dogs and don’t care to. When $$$ gets involved people tend to lose sight and focus of the quality and enjoyment of the process. Even though it’s an expensive part of my life, I try not to let money determine my actions and decisions with the dogs. Buying and selling dogs takes something away. Even though I bought my little girl a plott hound puppy last year and she does good in the woods. My little girl loves dogs but wanted one with long ears

What are your dogs Stanton, breed wise that is?

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Catahoula. But don’t let the spots fool you. They aren’t baypen dogs

Stanton just curious where or who your dogs come from in la

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It takes more than just crossing two dogs to make a “bloodline”. The vast majority have no clue of what a specific “bloodline” entails.


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Eh, a bloodline has to start somewhere. A pair of dogs, usually unrelated, worked great whether hunting, stock dogs, etc... bred, then line bred for several generations.

I consider if you line bred 3 generations you could call it your bloodline for those specific dogs. I guess I'm not one of those folk that take it seriously, most of the time if I hear that's your bloodline, it just means you've bred your specific type if dogs on your yard for years.

Some fellas think if you cant trace your dogs back 25+yrs then dont say the word bloodline. I say, dump the box and lets go hunting.

What do u guys think the best cross is a n line breeding. And what do u think about a Half brother to half sister.

Bigdog, I’ve always heard that half brother/ half sister crosses produce some good ones. I’m hoping to make that cross this coming year.

This will be my next one Mike,,, I am anxious to see if it works like some of the old timers tell me it has in the past.  I should be able to try it come this fall.. 

I have used the half brother sister cross on numerous occasions and had good results. It will often breed stronger to the common relative than his or her own sons and daughters, especially if the common relative didn't produce as good of percentages as you had expected when bred directly.

Breed the offspring of the half brother x sister cross back to the side of the common relative...the common relative is common because we all should breed to the best side...at least the side we perceive to be the best...

A few inbreedings I’ve done

https://dogs.pedigreeonline.com/millers-tug-of-yhk-wA3nWIjm/pedigree?utm_campaign=share-button&utm_source=external&utm_medium=link

https://dogs.pedigreeonline.com/yhks-allie-gator-m6ay7QHg/pedigree?utm_campaign=share-button&utm_source=external&utm_medium=link

https://dogs.pedigreeonline.com/yhks-doc-holiday-rWuZpCFv/pedigree?utm_campaign=share-button&utm_source=external&utm_medium=link


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I HAVE DONE HALF BROTHER HALF SISTER CROSS 3 TIMES . ALL THREE TIMES I HAVE TWO THAT MAKE REAL NICE DOGS . THE REST ARE CULLS IN MY BOOK . I WAS WONDERING HOW IT TURNED OUT FOR YALL PERCENTAGE WISE. ALL DOGS IN MY KENNEL ARE RELATED . I HAVE BEEN BREEDING THEM FOR 12 YEARS . JUST DID A OUT CROSS TO BREED BACK IN. 

Got a pair of males at two different yards off a half brother half sister cross with the dame of the pair being their common ancestor but the sires to both of the parents were littermate brothers, so it’s a half sibling/first cousin cross that should make some really nice dogs, they are 11 months old now, one is going to be hunted and the other used on cattle, I’m expecting pups any minute now out of the same mother as the two 11 month old males bred to another first cousin whose sire is also a littermate brother to the grandsires of my 2 11 month old males, I’m concentrating on a certain cross that clicked real good and had 100% litter turn over rate that all made well above average dogs and average to great reproducers of themselves, got my fingers crossed everything goes as close to as planned as possible these next 2-3 years...

I bred this way for 20 years with high success rate...

One of the worst things I’ve done is start over...been through a truck load of culls to get decent dogs...the dogs I have now are pretty fair maybe not as consistent as I want but have had good pups...

Here’s two scenarios...

Starting out with good dogs from good to great bloodlines and the first generation one can select for a few excellent pups...within 3 generations we can have a high percentage of excellent dogs and it can be done in less than five years...

The two things one must do in my opinion...

1. Breed the very best within the family...

2. Just as important as number 1, select the very best pups to hunt and breed...to find out the best is through testing and observing...put the pups through a scenario and then analyze what was seen...at least keep 4 pups and then cull down to two pups if keeping one...it gets to the point that all 4 are good and that gives you more options...



Second scenario...

Starting out with scatter bred dogs will be a challenge...

Meaning there will be lots of variation in the pups...
Takes longer to establish your line...
And, our idea of a great dog is not the same as other dog breeders standards...
So...the second scenario can really suck...

I tell y'all something I've seen over the years. It's natural and common sense to a degree. Say I have two full brothers or two full sisters and one is exceptional and the other is a good dog but just not quite the dog the other is be it build, performance, etc. Everyone is gonna want to breed that exceptional one, and they should. BUT, I've seen too many times when the lesser of the two was actually the better producer. I've seen it in dogs, game chickens, and even homing pigeons and horses. Don't be too quick to discard or shy away from the lesser dog. If they are a cull then by all means don't breed it. You have to breed to dogs that are out of consistent, high percentage litters. One good or great dog out of a litter, no matter how great it is, isn't worth breeding to if all the litter mates are sub par. The odds are stacked against you and the odds of that great dog reproducing itself are extremely low. This is in scatter bred dogs and tight bred dogs alike.

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T-Dog, that’s exactly what I’m doing when my older female comes in heat. She’s a littermate to my old Dum Dum dog. He was the best dog I’ve had and I planned to start my line off of him. He was one of 3 litters out of the same two dogs and every single puppy out of those 3 litters made a dog. There was one dog out of all of them that was semi open. All the others were 100% silent and straight catch. All but 3 of them have now been killed. There are a few people that bred off of them, but not in to the family and was a wasted opportunity in my opinion. Around me nobody line breeds or really understands it. Everybody takes a good dog to another good dog, then takes a puppy to another good dog that’s unrelated, and so on and so on. Since I first got my hands on that line I’ve wanted to use it as a foundation for my own dogs.

I never considered breeding the female because she wasn’t nearly the dog her brother was. She used to be a really good dog and then got to the point where she was more of a help dog. She would let her brother strike the track and then she would run with him. Very rarely will she strike first. But I have one female that’s off of her and my dead catch dogs littermate brother. I can’t judge the success of the whole litter because it was an accidental litter when I was overseas and my uncle was keeping her. He had drug issues and I later found out wasn’t taking good care of her or the puppies and all but the one I have died. The one I have is hell on wheels when it comes to a RCD. So I believe that this older female will actually throw puppies that are better than herself, and I believe that they will be very high percentage litters based on other dogs from that blood.


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T-dog...you are right in both ways...scatterbred has a higher probability of greater variation...line bred and inbred has a lot lower chance of variation...but a breeder must be consistent in what and how he breeds his dogs within the family...

An extreme example of line breeding and inbreeding can include an English bulldog and BMC cross and that produces variation because of style of breeding within a family...that in my opinion gives it a bad name...

When I bred my old line of Mt curs they were tight bred and I only bred the very best within the family and the dogs hunted harder, faster and became grittier as more generations were produced...

I once bred to a smaller gyp that tested pretty good as a pup...she consistently rolled out alone as a 3-4 month old pup so I kept her...she was a lighter cream color and was not going to be over 37 pounds or so when grown...so a friend needed a strike dog and I gave her away at  6 or so months old...when I dropped her off we made a hunt and right off she treed a coon and went on to make a good dog...

I lost my main female so I called my buddy and it just so happens he had to stop hunting on account of personal issues...I pick her up and breed her to her grandfather...the smallest puppy, a female reached 45 pounds and was heck on wheels...I kept her on account she looked to be perfect in every way...maybe too much hunt and no quit And grit to spare...I bred her to her father who was also her grandfather...the pups produced were pretty awesome...but too much grit in my opinion...

I tried to only breed the very best but my logic told me that that little female wasn’t my cup of tea but...everything inside of her was...there was never any doubt about that...

Outcrossing would have been my last option...

Fixing to start this fall working towards my own family of dogs. The line I’ve been focused on trying to revive the last 3 years, died with my pearl and boo dogs this year. That strain of leopard is gone. Luckily, I have a breeding pair of what I believe is a female that’s ALMOST everything I want a dog to be, and has proven she can raise a litter of pups, and she can pass her genes on at a high percentage(1 litter). And a Male that isn’t too far off of her. They are both products of relatively tight bred dogs. though from entirely different families of dogs, they are similar in almost any way you could compare them, the female is just a tick above him in most skills. I’m after stock sense, and a sharp mind above all else.

  To the guys like Cajun and Mike and Thomas(I know there’s plenty more of y’all on here) that have something that they can really say is theirs, they have the dogs they set out to have and create years ago. I probably respect that above all else in the dog game. Cause for as many “big time hog hunters” as I know, must of em ain’t got anything I’d own. And the few that do, usually got nothing more to do with them dogs than being lucky enough to own em.


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Man slim I hope you have better luck with the next litter. I really thought you had it going your way once you managed to get them grown. Reuben, I have what I call to sides to the little family of dogs I hunt. One gyp in the pedigree is really what the difference in the two sides is on paper. But, there is just a little difference in them even though they are about 95% or better  identical in every way. Depending on what I want to increase on or decrease as to who I breed to who. Originally, one old male was what I was trying to duplicate. I've always appreciated being able to look at an animal a see that it was out of a certain line, be it dogs, horses, or chickens. The consistency says that the breeder at least had some sort of standard, the eye to see it, and the ability to produce it. Over the years I've I allowed myself to breed myself into a corner with my family of catch dogs by not producing enough of them. Trying to find and out source to help revive it has been a challenge to say the least. I might find a specimen that I really like in most every way, but when I probe a little deeper, there's no consistency. One is short and stumpy while one is tall and rangy, one is layed back and the next is a crack head. To me this says the line isn't very concentrated or the breeder doesn't have a standard or goal in mind. Even if the dogs are full blood this or that, breeding dogs out of that sort of thing is like breeding cross breeds. Uniformity is more than just cosmetic.

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10-4 on that...I do believe you and I see it about the same way...