Hog dog-ology

[T-Bob Parker]

Let me start by saying thank you to each of you, I've been pretty lonesome on this particular Trip out of town and all the good debates have kept me from going stircrazy!!
Also, opinions vary, so let's not get bent out of shape over this thread, as I've said before, my grand daddy told me "if everybody liked the same thing as me your grandma wouldn't never get nothing done"


So. Several recent posts have all sort of eventually meshed together in my head and made me realize that most of the arguments between different folks here lately have all boiled down to standards and wether or not you'll compromise your standards.

Im no dog man, and I'm really not even all that bright, but there's a few things I see as basics when it comes to hunting dogs an I'd like to deal with ONE AND ONLY ONE OF THEM.




Striking.


To me, and it's possible I'm wrong ( but I'm not  ) ANY dog that is said to be a hog dog finds it's own hog. I'm not talking up and coming pups, I'm talking grown dogs. They should be able to find a hog on their own. To me this is the basic of basics and y'all all know it is or you wouldn't be doing "mock hunts" with your pups

I see and hear and read of a ton of folks who are breeding their only strike dog to one of their "help" dogs. I also see alot of folks on the dog trade saying "I need a female ____ cur or____ hound or ____terrier" and the best I can figure is they have a dog who may or may not be a strike dog and they assume that bingo bango presto chango they can add some "breed" to it and they'll have "jam up" dogs?? I believe this BECUASE when I first started that's what I thought too.


I say all that to ask y'all, why on earth would you breed ANY dog that can't AT LEAST find it's own hog in hopes of making a litter of dogs that can?

 Or

Is it that you WANT a whole litter of help dogs? And if so, why do you want them?

[T-Bob Parker]

Let me ask another question to spur some discussion since y'all are being awful quiet and I've still got a few hours before I get home.

If you had a hound who had never found and treed a coon, would you call it a coon dog?

If you had a heeler who wouldn't go pester a cow, would you tell people he was a cow dog?

If you had a lab who wouldnt go into cold water and fetch a
Duck, would you brag on your bird dog?

If you say, well obviously, no. Then why would you call a dog whos got no desire or ability to do the basic function that everyone wants, a hog dog? And why would you breed it?

[Shotgun wg]

I personally wouldn't breed any dog that I did not see as top notch. In my opinion all dogs should be able to find their own hog. In most cases when the situation pushes u to not be able to run ur best dog another will step up. I have seen what was bought as help dog turn into a strike dog. To me some dogs are just better and tend to start more often than others. I can say each one of my 4 dogs will start a hog. I know this because I tend to watch my garmin a lot when trying to get on a hog in order to see who starts it and in what order they line out.

I have seen instances where it took a while for the next dog to step up as primary and some slow hunts were the norm for a while.

I came from the deer dog world and u had ur main strike dog and a lead dog. It takes both if one didn't hold both spots. The others would strike also but it wasn't a race till that lead dog opens up.

[jagdtank]

i agree and my dogs suck totally and completely.only got a pup and a peaner that has some potential. I've bought alot of dogs and tried breeding a good dog to existing dog..... sucked also. sucky genetics is the stronger everytime i've tried.I'm buying genetics for now on and only breeding the best to the best out there that i know of that also has verifiable genetics. It's a waste of time and money to buy pups out of a buddys crossed up dogs without knowing the line and how they work. I could have payed eight grand for a strike dog and been way ahead.Only dogs i've owned that was really good was jagds and they were good because of their foundation breeding and natural abillity testing. my new lead dog hopeful is a bmc from donald breckenridge and he's 10 months old and only got in on three bays and opened bay with lead dog on two. hes only been hunting 6 times or so total and went and found hogs by himself thursday while the older dogs stayed underfoot and sucked and tempted me to cull them right there! he's always caught with the other dogs as well. I personally don't care if it takes me a couple years to save the money I'm not buying or breeding a deck stacked the wrong way again! even if the pups are free because i crossed mine and a buddys dog or if I buy one for fifty bucks because by the time i raise them and put all that time into them trying to change bad behavior brought on by genetic tendency I could have for the same money bought a dog that would have done all those things naturally from the start for less money and been catching hogs instead of training dogs not to do whats bred into them and having high blood pressure brought on by a butt sniffing mutt.If average dogs throw a  real good dog it's a freak but when they come along from years of purposeful genetic mixing it's expected. makes since to me . So i guess my point is, im not crossing two dogs again just because i need a cheap dog. I'de rather start with deaf dumb and blind foundation bred dog as breeding stock than two freaks with nothing behind them.  I hate driving long distances to hunt just to lead them to the hogs.jmo

[BRK]

without going into to a long explanation, what is your thoughts about breeding a strikedog (male) to a known producer of strikedogs (female)?

[Easttex91]

without going into to a long explanation, what is your thoughts about breeding a strikedog (male) to a known producer of strikedogs (female)?

X2 with the female being from proven lines but an unproven individual

[T-Bob Parker]

This is where it comes into play that I said I'm not very bright and didn't claim to be a dogman, BUT, since BRK said she's a known producer of strikedogs, then she is proven. A proven producer.

As for me, I would personally be very reluctant to breed an unproven gyp even among the lines I like simply becuase i feel performance is the goal. But what do I know, I can think of one fella we all envy who I've heard does exactly that with his crossbred bitches and his dogs are among the most elite in the sport fr what I've seen heard and read. He's obviously doing something very right and I'm obviously not yet.

[chads7376]

Here is another conundrum.... Finds their own hogs....? That phrase in itself needs to be defined here. Are you walking, driving or dropping your dogs within 100 or even 200 yards of said hogs? To me that is not a dog finding their own hogs. That's a dog being fed hogs and darn near any dog that will bay a hog can do this.

I got in this debate in another thread but I guess I see things different than a lot of hunters out there....

So to answer your question I will not breed a dog that cannot TRULY find THEIR own hogs...

[hillbilly]

without going into to a long explanation, what is your thoughts about breeding a strikedog (male) to a known producer of strikedogs (female)?

Lots of people breed good blooded gyps that have mever been hunted and get good results

[Bowtech99]

Talking about standerds, I expect even my pits to take a Hot track and find a hog. Anything less will get them culled. My Standerds for my Hounds and curs are even higher.

Gotten rid of 3 Within past 2 months that weren't up to par.

[Cajun]

To me, breeding a dog that cannot find or strike it's own hog is like going backwards. You might luck up but for sure the chances of getting top dogs is nil. It is hard enough getting top dogs from top dog breeding. There are so many variables to make a top dog & if you have the right gentics, you need the exposure & hunting that is required to make a top dog. Good dogs dont get made on a chain or in a pen.
  Other then people running rcd's with there strike dogs I just dont know many peoplle who would hunt with help dogs other then young & upkeeping youngsters. I must be wrong because the dog trade if full of them but how often do you see top strike dogs for sale. If people would cull them, instead of breeding them you might see a difference.
  On anotherf note if T Bob does not mind why is it so hard for that super dog to reproduce itself. One of the most famous crosses in Plott history was the Butch x Jill cross(weems breeding) According to the man that trained Jill she was just a avernot age dog but when bred to Butch, she reproduced well above the average to great dogs. Both parents were linebred & related.
  I think the biggest problem is kennel blindness & the I would rather breed one of my dogs then go down the road & breed to old so & so top dog. I just cannot understand this concept.



r

[jagdtank]

always breed genetics to genetics not dog to dog. just my last two cents on the subject.

[KevinN]

Here is another conundrum.... Finds their own hogs....? That phrase in itself needs to be defined here. Are you walking, driving or dropping your dogs within 100 or even 200 yards of said hogs? To me that is not a dog finding their own hogs. That's a dog being fed hogs and darn near any dog that will bay a hog can do this.

I got in this debate in another thread but I guess I see things different than a lot of hunters out there....

So to answer your question I will not breed a dog that cannot TRULY find THEIR own hogs...

No need to define that term....it's basic and there is nothing really there to debate.

Walk hunting, roading, hood hunting, casting....it doesn't matter "finds their own hogs" means the same in every instance.

I think your more referring to the range of a dog and that reflects on hunting style.

[chads7376]

Here is another conundrum.... Finds their own hogs....? That phrase in itself needs to be defined here. Are you walking, driving or dropping your dogs within 100 or even 200 yards of said hogs? To me that is not a dog finding their own hogs. That's a dog being fed hogs and darn near any dog that will bay a hog can do this.

I got in this debate in another thread but I guess I see things different than a lot of hunters out there....

So to answer your question I will not breed a dog that cannot TRULY find THEIR own hogs...

No need to define that term....it's basic and there is nothing really there to debate.

Walk hunting, roading, hood hunting, casting....it doesn't matter "finds their own hogs" means the same in every instance.

I think your more referring to the range of a dog and that reflects on hunting style.

Disagree.... Say joe blow takes his dogs to the woods. He walks said dogs around a couple hours til they stumble on or jump a pig... Now, did the dog find the pig?? Heck no. Human took the dog to the pig.

Yes range is in play here but I have personally hunted with a few people that think said scenario was in fact a dog finding a hog. To me thats no different than walking your dog to a pen with a hog in it.

Just my opinion but I wouldn't breed a dog that's chillin at my feet all day until a pig runs out in front of him/her whether you want to call that "finds their own hog" or not.

[T-Bob Parker]

I think it's a fun topic, so by all means, take it however far you want fellas.

But as far as chads "conundrum", I didn't get into specific prejudices, I only wanted the basic of
Basics to be established and hopefully understood and agreed upon by all who read this. You can breed to your own prejudices but there needs to be a base point.

[halfbreed]

  so chad what you are saying is YOU have no use for a short to medium range dog that checks back in periodicley  when in no sign  . and actually hunts with it's owner instead of blowing out and hunting for it's self .  I walk hunt my dogs and we will  [ stumble ] up on a hog every now and then . but this is what I prefer and demand in a dog , I will cull a get gone out of the country dog . I spend my time hog hunting not dog hunting  .  different strokes for different folks but I have of yet had to point to a hog and say there he boys go get him  lol   well there was that one time but that's another discussion   lol   hell what was the original topic  i'm getting olg and forgetfull i'll have to go to the top and re-read it  .

[chads7376]

Let me clarify again. I have seen way too many times a man telling me his dog is sure enough a hog dog but yet this dog literally stays 20 feet from you until another dog barks or you stumble on a pig. Said hog is 50 or even 100 yards in the brush and even I can here the hog and the dog goes to it. Call that a dog finding a hog if you want to.

Halfbreed, I don't like a dog to leave the country either but I will just sit and wait and let them work in every direction before I go on down the road and drop again and repeat the process. Sure they come check in but not every 3 minutes after a 50 yard dash. I don't have the luxury of driving the places I have to hunt and I darn sure aint walking them for no reason so I count on the dogs covering the country.

So yes different strokes for different folks.. LOL

[chads7376]

Let me say this too, I am far from an experienced dog man. Hell I'm still green. So I am not trying to come across as something I'm not. But I think I have the bar set higher than a lot of folks I have hunted with...

[Shotgun wg]

Here is another conundrum.... Finds their own hogs....? That phrase in itself needs to be defined here. Are you walking, driving or dropping your dogs within 100 or even 200 yards of said hogs? To me that is not a dog finding their own hogs. That's a dog being fed hogs and darn near any dog that will bay a hog can do this.

I got in this debate in another thread but I guess I see things different than a lot of hunters out there....

So to answer your question I will not breed a dog that cannot TRULY find THEIR own hogs...

My guess is u run long range dogs. I do not. I road mine. I expect them to wind and if we cross a track I expect them to go with it. If I stop they should hunt the area out to around 300 yards. I know in some places a man can see that far but if it is pine thickets u can't. On farms I hunt this range will cover 90% of the fields.

[halfbreed]

  ok I see what you are saying now for a minute I thought you were talking about walk hunting and short range dogs . even a short range dog better cover some brush while I stand still and wait .