EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Guys I am sorry if I offend  any by that but I watched some videos today and cant stand this crap!

Im not offended ;D

Shooting from choppers is a necessary part of hog control in this part of Texas, nothing wrong with it in my book.

Matadors flew their Russleville camp last year and shot 2,600 hogs in 30 days. Indian creek in Brisco county killed 1,200. What else are the farmers and ranchers supposed to do?

Silverton you are correct and I do not run land like that but the guys in the videos were jack asses guess thats what made me upset.

I think you could change the title. Plus, as dog hunters we need all the allies we can get.

I could be wrong and I am not trying to be diagreable with you Eric but I am pretty sure I don't see the guys in helicopters as allies.  Maybe landowners can see them as such but everytime I hear about them they are coming in to save the day and fix what "we" could not. 
I agree that the title could probably be changed, as much as it pains me to to be PC it is not good to insinuate a persons sexual orientation based on their occupation....

 Matt,
   On the same hand have you ever talked to a landowner about trapping vs. running dogs? I know I have.  We have the same goal in mind. Too take out hog numbers. Lucky for us not alot of landowners will  not pay the 300 plus an hour to have the helicopter people fly over. I would jump at the chance to be the shooter on a fly over.

I got motion sickness watching the video.  There aint no way in H$LL I could ride in one!

Just think what the hog population would be if all those hogs were still out there reproducing!! :o  

I would also jump at the chance to get to go on a fly over! But luckily in this part of east texas, you cant do a fly over for all of the trees, and brush, so its all up to my traps and dogs!!  ;D

I just know of a couple places that feel like the choppers take care of the problem and won't allow any type of hunting because they are affraid someone might have fun while they are doing it.  I know of one place personally I would like to run dogs on but never will be able to because they feel the choppers kill nearly all their hogs when they fly over.  How do you compete with that?  You don't!  And I used the word compete because that is what this is, I don't like it but we all compete where land and resources are available.  With each other, with other hunters, with trappers, with non hunter etc always competing for that opportunity to have a great place to hunt and catch hogs.  We may need to all play nice with one another but we are all in competition at one level or another for pigs as stupid as that sounds its true....

Matt,
  I agree 100%. Hunters out number land avail. To hunt we have to show that we can get the job done. I have picked up places b/c the land owner was never able to get other people on the phone when he called them to come out. I have also picked up land b/c other people left trash out or always seemed to bring 5 or more people out with them.

That's easy, Matt.

Just make a deal with them.  Tell them you'll come bring your dogs the same afternoon that the chopper flys and if you catch a hog, you get to hunt.  If you zero, there will be no further discussion.  That should get the place lined out for you.

I have one place that they fly each year new Rosebud.  I have done just as described above and caught hogs the same day they flew.

Bryant, there is no way I would put that much pressure on my dogs, they have enough problems finding them for fun much less with something that important riding on the line  ;D  I am still working on them though and maybe I will try to make that proposition to them and see if the will take me up on it.

Around here for the most part they are not going to do any good and throughout east texas for that matter becuase of the thick cover and dense canopy.... 

That's no problem, either...just give me a google earth coordinate, and I'll have one ready to turn loose when you come blowing by!

Do yall really think they are going to kill all the hogs? There are plenty of hogs to be hunted.

They fly my best hunting ranch every year. The hogs are just as thick in there a month later as they were before the flight. It is not affordable to fly the whole ranch. There are neighboring properties, boundaries etc...that limit where and how many hogs killed.

Depredation control in large numbers is a necessary method for many farmers and ranchers.

While the guys in the video may not have the most humble attitude...they are still hunting and doing a job with the same intentions as most hog doggers.

If we put them down and talk crap and try to believe dogging is the only method...then we are just like the morons on bowhunting website and owners of other hog hunting websites who dont agree with hog dogging.

No sweat guys, calm down.  I hope what I write here eases some of your anxiety over helos and hogs.  I have over 1,000 hours in helicopters doing all kinds of wildlife work.  Just Google my name and you will see some of it, videos too.  I also do helicopter hog control.  I know the Texas USDA helicopter team has taken out over 250 hogs in a single day.  Private helo contractors maybe more.  I have done a lot of wild boar live captures from helicopters, shooting, bird captures, wildlife surveys, moose, brown bear, seabirds, marine mammals, etc. and I am currently researching the use of helicopters for ultra low level marsh bird surveys.  I also use night vision and thermal imagery to shoot hogs.  I have been at this since the 1980's.

I know helicopters and I know hogs.  In spite of the massive numbers a helicopter shoot team can knock down in some situations, they cannot get them all.  For a comprehensive wild pig control program, you need all the tools you can get.  Helos, traps, shooting over bait, snares, specially trained dogs and more.

I have killed and caught/tied enough hogs over the last 35 years to say I stopped counting at about 5,000.  But guess what?  If I learned one thing, I have learned that feral pigs can adapt through behavior and maybe genetics and natural selection faster than any creature on earth.  They do learn to avoid helicopters very fast and then will breed and perpetuate their own kind.  Helicopters are not a panacea to pig control by any measure.  Anyone that has been in the military knows you can hear that rotor chop a long ways off well before the people in the helicopter can see you.  Ask thousands of vietnamese and afghans.   Hogs figure it out and rather than run out where you can shoot them, they crawl under a bush.  I have had big boars in excess of 300 pounds hide in a clump of marsh grass no bigger than they were and no amount of rotor wash would flush them.  We either dropped a cur dog out the helicopter on them or when safe, we nudged them with the helo skids to make them run.

In Florida I was priveleged to run dogs on ranches east of Okeechobee Lake where few people have run dogs on the hogs.  The hogs were just standing in the pastures and would move off if your truck stopped in to what the cowboy with us called "brakes" (lines of brush, palmettos and cabbage palms).  We ran our dogs on these poor suckers and had 17 tied and moved into a trailer before noon.   The ranch owner hauled them to a sale barn in Miami.  That got old fast, great for training pups, but work.  I would rather go in where they have exhausted all other methods and there are only a few remnant hogs left and use trained dogs.  My experience is that many of the last few are the big "coyote" boars.  That is the real test of your knowledge and your dogs.  

Buddy Goatcher

If I were the manager of a large property, the only way I would bring in a helicopter is if the fencing around the entire perimeter was hog proofed (if there's a such thing).  Then I would bring in the bird to wipe out the hogs inside the property.  I have seen this approach successful in ridding the property of hogs effectively.  So without the ability to keep the hogs from coming back, using dogs or flying a bird are only measures to mitigate the population. 

There is undoubtable a cost vs value that property managers will decide upon their approach to mitigate hog populations whether it is to fly a bird or allow hog dogs.  This depends greatly on the characteristics of the property.  I don't believe there is any reason to get upset at using helicopters to kill pigs.  The right to use dogs to hunt is a HUNTING RIGHT. Helicotors aren't threatening your right to use dogs to harvest pigs. For the majority, I would speculate that most hog doggers and the places they hunt will be uneffected. 

I believe that some hog doggers get into the sport and believe that because hogs are destructive, they are the saving grace to all property owners.  While evidence supports the facts behind hog numbers, destruction, and hog dog effectiveness, some hog doggers may become threatened by helicopters.  Threatened because helicopters ARE more effective at elliminating hogs and defeat the self -asserted right that hog doggers are the saving grace. 

So that leads to the insecurity question that what if hog dogging was left solely up to be classified as "sport" for havesting pigs.  Would our right continue to exist?  If helicopters came in and removed all the hogs off all the propertys that a hog dogger was hunting in a population mitigation position, and was left only the propertys that allowed the sporting havesting of pigs, could the hog dogger survive?  The cost vs hunting/harvest opportunity would begin to take a toll on hog doggers when it actually starts to effect them. While I have not personally experienced any loss of hunting because of helicoptors, I would share on the support for other hog doggers who have.  I believe that there are not enough hog doggers being effected to gather a non-supportive position towards helicoptoring that could mount agianst the reasoning for allowing helicoptoring in the first place. 

Hogs can not be totally eliminated in Texas and everyone in Texas can not afford to fly a bird on their property, therefore, there is no true threat agianst our right to hunt hogs with dogs in the State of Texas.  I am completely neutral towards flying a bird and actually only hope that one day I could be the trigger man...       

Choppers are very effective in many parts of the state but they will never get every hog, just like traps won't, nor will dogs. And they have their draw backs just like any other method. I think that most land owners understand that and I don't see why it should be a competition. If a land owner wants the most effective means of control, they will implement all three methods. And yes, I have run properties that get flown. And yes, we do catch pigs after the shooting is done. Maybe if we would not consider it a competition, and worked with the helo pilots, they would express the same opinion to the land owners they fly for, helping us get our foot in the door.

PS: Unless you get motion sickness or are afraid of heights, there is not much more fun than zipping around in a little 22 size chopper with a case of #4 or 0 buck shot and mowing down sounders. Fasten your seat belts boys, it is going to be a RIDE!

Steve

XXX2

I can safely say that I haven't lost any land to helos and I am not really worried about losing any due to the area in which I mostly hunt.  The place I mentioned I would like to hunt but don't consider it a loss since I have never hunted it to begin with.  I am not affraid of the helos killing all the hogs and I think there have been some very good points made here by folks that have experience hunting on and around properties that have been flown.  But if there is no competition call a helicopter pilot and see what he thinks about you helping him, I would like to know of one that would like "help" getting rid of the animal that he chases around for $300/hr  ;) 
I think all means are necessary to properly control hogs bla bla bla but I think it would be interesting to see what would happen on this board if say the state of Texas set aside a few million dollars to pay these hellicopter hunters to come fly your honey hole on a regular basis.  I am not arguing with anyone, just playnig devils advocate here....

Matt,
  Bump is talking about the state paying to fly over one of his spots..........It already happens. Thats life. I can live with it.

I know it is already happening, that is why I brought it up to Joe Reader on here that may not know about it and since it is brought up in several posts as an exspense to the land owner.  I think Rex has proved that he can catch a hog and there are plenty of hogs in his area with over 150 caught this year alone.  But if all a John Smith land owner had to do in say Hogville, TX was pick up the phone and call Bill the state copter pilot and they killed 2500 hogs off of hogwrekr6969's honey hole I bet he would come on here and bitch about it a little.

Justification to bitch because a higher measure of effectiveness was assurted to control hog populations resulting in less opportunity for hogdogger6969.  Sounds like the exact same bitch type attitude every rifle hunter has agianst hog doggers.  We get a taste of our own medicine.

This is nothing new its ben going on atleast since I was a kid and I am 24 now.  I've known these services to lie about number just watch the videos on the internet they shoot about 6 times for 1 hog killed and about 80% of that is shoats.  

Silverton in the case of Matador ranch if they flew 30 days and lets be conservative at flying 4 hours a day at 300$/hour, which in its self is a conservative number I've heard as high as 512$/hour.  But thats 4 hours X 30 days = 120 flight hours x 300 dollars = 36,000$ dollars.

If you bump that to 5 hours a day at 400$/hour thats= 60,000$ dollars

I would have done it for 30 thousand dollars if it had taken me 3 months and every body could come out ahead I'll give you a tail and two ears for each hog I kill you can bet 100% about my honesty.  Then again if I was charging that much money I would probly lie too....or be out of a job.

Waylon

If all the places I hunt and surrounding properties were hunted and cost and resources were not an issue....I might have a different tune.

My situation and area may not apply to others and may not apply to other areas of the state.

I just hate to see too many negative and off the wall comments about how someone does population control.

I guess my point of view comes from having a little experience first hand...(not by any means a lot of experience) and from getting on the local bowhunting forum and trying to defend hog hunting to a bunch of non hunting educated weekend warriors who know the dogs ruin their hunting and run all the the deer off.

This thread reminds me of the same thing....being a die hard in one hunting field and discriminating against another in which the person has not seen or knowledge.

This is not directed to any of the previous posts or persons....just in general.

Matt....you are way off in your numbers...150 is only what I have found. My dogs kill and discard dozens of hogs each hunt.

The numbers are probably in the thousands..... ;D

I am not offended by Mex's  post at all and I am sure he meant nothing by it when he called the guys queers,he was probably just blowing off a little steam.I havent seen the video but if they were acting like Mex said I am sure I would have called them something way worse than a queer.But after spending alot of time up north I do understand that  is probably the best way to handle the hog problem up there.Unless you have ever been in that part of the state you dont understand the number of hogs and the damage they do to these ranchers crops costing them big bucks.I cant speak for the whole northern part of the state but the area Paul lives in the hogs are totally out of control and us old hogdoggers couldnt put a dent in the population but I am sure going to give it shot in the near future.

And I also agree with Waylon...I dont think they kill near as many as claimed.

The guy in my area....they count how many shells they go through and that equals hogs.

Boy old Wendler had one hell of a good point.The numbers dont lie.

Nobody said you have to find them to count them!!!!! ;D

I'm not questioning thier right to practice hog controle from a helicopter or saying that its not a valid way of doing things.  They have as much right to be there as I do, as do the "weekend warriors".  I am all for a free market so to speak..... who ever has the best service should be awarded the right to practice it and thats the reason the weekend warriors get upset from time to time because 4 or 5 weekends a year to maybe kill one hog each time is not gonna get you a place to hunt on when dog hunters can and will do so much more.  But I am all for them having the right to hunt a hog with a bow or scoped rifle a few times a year if they can find a place to do it.  Back to helicopters... Every service I have known of or heard of has lied about numbers. Honesty is very important to me and I don't hesitate one moment to shine the light on dishonest people.  I'm not saying that they are all dishonest but 100% of the ones I've know of were.  Dead hogs dont go to heaven right away they stick around for days and weeks on end they rot and stink and leave skeletons behind...... the buzzards and coyotes can only each so many.  I've hunted behind helicopters many times and each time I look for and see some dead hogs but never even close to the ammount they claim.  Thats called lying folks and getting payed to do it and I'm all about bringing it up everytime the subject comes around. :)

Waylon

I don't see it quite the same but I see where you are coming from...

the only time I have a big problem with the choppers is when they do something unsafe.  There's one video going around that shows them shooting a couple hogs while they are running down a gravel road, and in the ditch.  That isn't safe no matter where you do it from.   In fact I'm pretty sure it isn't even legal.

Take it from a hog doggin bow hunter who has shot from a chopper..... It is the exact same concern, roles reversed. Choppers effect us no more or less than we effect bow hunters. Yet, because we do not have the experience to understand the method, we are concerned about its impact on our sport. By far the most productive thing any of us could do is learn about other disciplines, accept each for what it is, and band together to protect ALL hunting/depredation control rights as a whole.

Steve

that's a nice dream Steve but it'll never happen.  It's the basic mentality of today's society in general.  you can go on any hunting based forum and see bashing against every other method except for the method they choose to employ.  Heck, you can find compound bowhunters griping about rifle hunters.  Then you get traditional guys shooting recurves and longbows bashing on the guys shooting compound bows.  then you get guys bashing on guys that shoot animals behind high fence, or bait etc.....  it'll never end because people always want to have something to bitch about instead of enjoying themselves.  There are enough animals to go around for everyone doesn't matter the species (except sheep, goats, and some bears of course) but there's still gonna be people pissed off because they some how feel it impacts THEIR hunt negatively.  If people would quit sitting around griping about what other methods hunter's are using outside of their chosen method and spend half as much time fighting against the anti-hunting organizations, we'd be a damn near unstoppable force.  BUT, it isn't that way which is why it was so easy for hogdogging to get kicked to the curb in Sam Houston National Forest.

i'm done preaching now.

That is not the reason doggin got kicked to the curb ;)

What ranch were you hunting on?

Correct, it will never happen..... That is why I said "the most productive thing any of us could do". The rest of your post echos my point exactly!

Steve

so it wasn't because gun hunters were griping that hog dogs were chasing deer around the forest?? 

nope ;)

I understand where you are coming from. There are people always coming by with their sales pitch to the people I hunt for also... wether its choppers or one out hunting. :) Those guys are no threat to me.. definatly not enough to resort to elementary name calling. ;)

I dont worry about the helicopters too much where I live. Shoot they would have a hard time seeing a car on the road much less a hog in the woods. ;D

I used to get Ill at people that shot hogs and let them lay......but you know even with all of us hunting with dogs......we can't in no way catch or deplete the hog population in this state.  I used to catch hogs right up to Disney World's property where I am from in Florida, and they ran us out of there.......and the population declined there for a while as a result of the development.........but guess what.....they're baaaaaaack!!!! there is no way we can wipe out the hog poulation in this state..... they have 3 litters a year, will avg. about 4-6 pigs that make it, and often more than that make it.......so you take the current population of sows and do the math.......  ;D    JMO.....

Pecos Im headed to Disney World Saturday you think I should carry my dogs? ;D

LOL....a lot of red tape...but it wouldn't hurt...LOL.... I live in East Texas now but my dad and the rest of my family still live there....but they are still having problems with the hogs.....

Ok guys I have had a rough night but want to clear something up.I posted with intent to show this video.These guys are some lawyers so i thought twice.Was blowing off steam cause I also saw a video of this group releasing hogs caught in traps to their dogs and calling this dogging!This happens all the time with wifes and friends cheering on.Guess I took it a lil personal and those who know me know what I stand for,was raised and care about our rights as hunters and outdoorsmen.Sincerley MEX.P.S. ya'll say a prayer for Grandma'rushed to the er now in icu with heart surgery at 2am this am.

WOW mex, hope your GM will be ok.

man, i'm sorry to hear that PJ.  i'll definitely say a prayer for her.

PJ I am sorry to hear about your Grandma and she will be in my prayers.Heading up north in the morning and will get with you when I get back.