EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

When I was introduced to hunting hogs with dogs the guys I hunted with had all closed mouth stuff and couldn't stand an open mouthed dog.  Now these same guys all have some open mouthed dogs.  We have had no trouble finding hogs with either.  The number of hogs we catch has been virtually the same.  What are the advantages of closed mouth dogs?  Anybody got any proof to back up their opinions or is it what your guessing? 

No open dogs for me... no doubt they push hogs... especially on small properties.

I like a dog to be closed mouth unless it is looking at a hog. Then I know that there is a hog to be caught. A dog that is open on the track barks when it smells a hog. Maybe the hog is there and maybe it isn't. In my oppinion, most dogs that are open are colder nosed dogs and they could be barking at a hog that is long gone. I could be wrong, that is just my oppinion. Our curs will only find a hot track and will not open up unless they are looking at the hog. Its just the way that we hunt. There are many different hunting styles. One isn't better that the other, you just have to find one that suits you.

Noah; What type of country do you hunt?  I hunt in NE TX.  It is super thick with lots of cover hogs feel comfortable in.  We have not really seen any difference in what we are catching.  Do you think geographic region/terrain may play a part in if and how far hogs are pushed by open mouthed dogs?  Do you have any particular instances open mouthed dogs pushed hogs?

Stalking ,Trapping and chasing them with dogs I have learned pigs are extremely smart animals and I have no doubt if me walking up within eye or ear range will cause a pig to run that a pig that knows the sounds and movements of a dog will also run. If someone were coming after you would you rather them sneak up or talk aloud while coming in?? For my survival I hope they are screaming and flailing through the bush!! I also teach my dogs to honor each others bay and if I had a open dog barking as he ran a trail it would mess up the rest of my pack really bad! I have never kept an open dog long enough to compare the results! Just my opinion!

A friend and I were discussing this topic today.   You guys say that a open mouth dog pushes hogs....Do hogs not know when silent dogs are trailing them after they have been jumped???  Hogs are going to run regardless most of the time.  The ones that keep running have dogs that are chasing rather than biting and making the hog stop and fight.  Open dogs DO NOT push hogs.....hogs that keep running have dogs that are not getting the job done!!  Just my opinion

I hunt all different types of terrain in FL, mostly thick river bottom, swamp land type stuff... the thing that makes the biggest difference to me is that all these hogs are under intense dog pressure from all directions... being as smart as they are, being caught a few times and released... a hog knows to head for the hills at the first bark.

I've seen hogs slip as far as a half mile away just from a dog barking at a cow in the pasture... they know what's about to happen ;) ;D

I'm of the "stealth attack" approach.  Hit 'em hard and fast before the know whats happening!

I can take my quiet dogs and hunt a thousand acres all day long, take an open dog and the hogs would be run off the property in an hour.

Gentlemen we have a winner!

I like close-mouth dogs to run hogs, just personal preference, but I ran open-mouth hounds for coons when I was younger. Difference being when I coon hunted the dogs barked on trail to get the coons to tree, now that I hog hunt the dogs run silent to get close enough to shut them down and bay, so I can catch em'.

A hog being chased by a closed mouth dog will not run as far as one that can hear the dog on its ass and as far as a hog that won't stop for a dog being the dogs fault I think both of you need to keep discussing.

I agree with 1/2 this statement: if hogs are running once a dog has jumped them then you are right! the dogs are not getting the job done! but if you turn your dogs out and they strike a track that is an hour old those hogs are say 1000 yards away, the hogs familiar with dogs on them hear the dogs, they start running straitline. By the time the open mouth dogs cold trail 1000 yards those hogs have a huge headstart and you will never bay those hogs. This doesnt happen with silent dogs. JMO Ive hunting hounds a long time

Without going into a page of detail, I run a mixed pack of open and silent dogs.  Sometimes I feel that the barking pushes the pigs and sometimes it doesnt seem to, sometimes that cold hound nose picks up tracks in hog scarce places that the silent dogs cant take.  It all seems to equal out in the end though.

There is a difference between a good hog hound and a barking babling idiot of a hound. ;)

Please explain what you mean Big Aina.  What do i need to keep discussing.  One thing that has not been stated is the fact that there are different types of open dogs.  Some bark every breath, others bark when the trail is hot, others give mouth every now and then.  Are we talking about any dog that gives mouth before they see the pig pushes them or only the ones that bark every breath on track

I have a lot of experience hunting hogs at night with a bow.  I have had a couple instances where I had hogs close that hauled when they heard a 4-wheeler several hundred yards away on its way to pick me up.  I know hogs are super smart and they understand that certain things mean danger.  I just don't feel like they leave the country when they think danger is on the way.  I believe they head to their security cover, wherever that might be.

I dont think we need to confuse a silent dog with a hot nose dog! There are COLD NOSED hounds that are silent

verry true.  I just tend to associate hounds with being open and curr type dogs with being silent.  Used to own a verry nice little plott that was silent.  

MY BAD. O0

When hogs have been dogged they will leave the country when they hear a dog comming if you dont believe me come up to north texas and hunt with us. Im a hound guy and I love a good race and I promise you a long nite in my neck of the woods

I feel the dog should only bark when the pig is stopped, ass to the ground and wanting to fight other then that it is unneccessary and counter productive. What I meant by keep discussing is at first read over of your comment I wanted to say you should keep logging hours of hunting and put yourself in a fEw moRe of theSe situations but I am nowhere near the level of "experienced" and am working on not judging other peoples methods and beliefs. If you keep discussing the subject and gain a few more guys knowledge of past experience with hogs running from just sound (before being bumped) you will see the common factor is the pigs run. I have no doubt you still catch pigs with open dogs but I know the experienced ones reaction! No doubt!

I also forgot to mention I walk hunt every time with a very close range pack and if the dog takes more then ear range to get the hog stopped I don't answer and they get called off and my dogs know this! 1000 yards through the forest is way to far to let the pig run!

Big Aina, how much experience do you have with running open mouth dogs?  Pigs will sit their ass down and bay for an open mouth dog as well as a silent dog.  

Raider, How do you know the pigs are leaving the country, have you seen them actually leaving??

Well looks like you dont like to be challenged but to answer your question YES! when I follow a pack of hounds 6 or 7 miles I call that out of the country! I do agree that open mouth dogs will sit a hog down! but not when they have a one hour headstart.

It has to do with hogs exposure to dogs. The more hogs are exposed to hog hunting with dogs the more they learn to associate the bark of a dog with hunters.

You maybe can get away with open dogs on a big brush ranch that gets hunted a couple time a month, hunt a grain field several times a week and it probably won't work too well.

Pertinent story to the subject... a mnth ago I actually went deer hunting on the property we've dogged for the last 2 yrs.... now no one shoots hogs on this property, so the only fear these hogs have are of being dogged...

I got in my treestand and got settled... meanwhile, my buddy was getting in his stand on the far side of the property(up wind of me)... moments later it was like a stampede of swine :o  .... first a small boar came streaking by... visibly scared out of his mind...then a pack of 5, then 3 more.... and these hogs weren't just trotting... they were hauling ass.... straight line, headed for the next county!

All this, from just winding a guy getting into his stand... "smell a man, hear a bark... dog's gonna be chewing on my ass shortly... I better get the heck outa' here! ;D" ....sound or smells, they learn real quick what's up.

Raider, What style dogs do you run?  Are they close range?  How long will they stick with a track?  

Big an b, I only have a few years under my belt.  Since we've had the Garmin and we can see what the dogs are doing, we've watched the open dogs on track and they show the hogs they are trailing staying in a relatively small area (3/4 sq mile), although the track itself may at times be long.  

Oh Raider....I love a good challenge when they come about!!!  I agree that there are pigs that run when they hear dogs bark or 4 wheelers crank up.  I have hunted all over the Sulphur River. That is the way it is there.  But these pigs are not running straight line. I just dont think many of them actually run straight line for 6-7 miles.  I simply asked you a question about if you had seen them run out of the country.  Alot of people think when a pig runs it is running out of the country.  Most times they are running a tangled track to try and loose its pursuers.

all of our strike/bay dogs are half hound half cur, anybody that has hunted with us will tell you we have medium to long range dogs, I have a dog named Clay that will be baying that hog until you get to him, he is the kind of dog that will bay a hog and you can go to town get you a #4 at McDonalds come back and he will still be bayed. He has not been gritty at all until recently, I have seen him bay a 25 pound shoat but two weeks ago he caught about 125 pound sow, had her by the butt and she was sitting on his head. We hunt some tough places and are usually on our dogs with in an hour but I have left Clay bayed for as much as 5 hrs

I agree with that...especially on the Sulpher River bottoms, they dont have to go that far to get away. If every track was a hot track I would like nothing more than to hunt a pack of good fast open mouth hounds the problem is in most of the places we hunt open mout dogs lead to a long day or night.

Agteach11- I have seen 1 pure Plott hound that my uncle brought in from Texas(owner said he wasn't open!) get let out from the truck and open from the second the tailgate dropped and run about a mile loop open the whole way with 3 dogs following behind confused as sh*t only to come back around and be tied back in the truck for the rest of the hunt! Then we took the same dog on another hunt and after doing the same open loop and coming back was sold to a guy for breeding purposes for 1/8 of the cost that it costs to get a dog here from Texas.

 I also have had a friend or 2 bring a dog that would yap when chasing and seen the hogs run like something was on its ass and it knew it!
 Then I have seen where a dog would let out a random bark when crossing a trail and my dogs would rush to him thinking he had a pig in sight and then return to check in with me and by the end of the hunt my dogs weren't answering the dogs random barks or when he actually had one  ( That didn't go well for him) and wouldn't answer till they heard the pig blow or take off .

 I have no doubt an open dog can get r done but from my experiences I stick with the dogs that are silent unless the pig is stopped and it needs you to bring the gun.

Well here's my .02 -

MOST of the people that I've personally heard bash open mouth dogs have been guys with very little experience hunting.  They're usually heard the phrase from someone else and pass it along.  I am not directing this comment on anyone on this thread so don't take offense to it.  I get irritated however to hear these generalizations about open mouth dogs because there are so many factors to consider.  First, you can run hogs off small properties with silent dogs too - been there done that.  Go ahead and say my dogs aren't rough enough that's fine, but if you've been hunting long enough you know you can't catch them all.  Secondly, Noah's right as you can bet your you know what that if a place has been dogged too much that an open trailing dog will run them into the next zip code a lot quicker - no arguement there.  But we also have to remember that a hog's sense of smell is excellent and can also catch a wiff of a silent cur and run like hell.  Third - if your dogs are running to a trail bark and not a bay, then you have not put together an effective pack.  Hunt them together long enough and they'll understand each other.  The last point I'd like to bring up is a dog that opens when the bay breaks.  I know some guys that hate this.  What I cannot understand is how these two scenarios are different: You've got a bay, get the hog under control and your dogs roll out and bay another.  Do hogs stand around and wait on a bay but only scatter when a dogs chasing them and barking?  I do have proof on this as I have caught multiple hogs at a time with dogs opening in pursuit.  Doesn't bother me one bit that they open as it helps me and the rest of the pack locate them quicker.  TRACK SPEED is the key here.  The dogs I am referring to in this case are silent trailing dogs, only opening up when they make eye contact with a hog and staying open until it's harvested.

I don't know it all, my dogs are mediocre and I love hunting - as well as a good debate based on experience.

I have never hunted with open hounds other than a Jagd terrier !!! He could sometimes get it done but what usually happened was the hogs would hear him coming and run like hell. I personally saw hogs run ahead of him after they heard him bark. From talking to people the only way you can catch a hog with open hounds is if the hogs stops. I guess maybe some really fast hounds that can close the distance and/or run him till he is tired. I have heard too many stories of hound hunters having races that last for hours and hours. One guy told me his dogs would run one off of a 25000 acre plantation. On small porperties that ain't good. I personally don't have thousands of acres to mess with a hound. Big properties I guess they are fine. Small properties no.

QUIET DOGS = SHORTER HUNTS   ?
OPEN DOGS = LONGER HUNTS      ?

I just don't like them.  Also most of the open dogs I've had people bring along are open trailing on trash.  Gets pretty annoying.  I don't like making a lot of racket out in the woods.  Just enough to get the job done.

I have some yipping little baxtards. I really dont like when they bark and prefer a silent dog and do agree that it is best to have silent trailing dogs. I think it is more likely to make hogs run and push them quicker if a dog is barking behind them. That being said....I typically have short hunts and catch a good many hogs.

Stealth and scent (wind direction) are very important factors of hog hunters. I dont necessarily believe that hogs run because of open dogs....I think it is from years of being hunted by dogs...open or silent. Hogs just learn to run. Once a silent dog bays...he has become open and hogs within hearing distances run. Some run and stop at short distances and some make a steady run for long distances.

How well/fast a dog can track and abilities to stop and hold the hog is the issue...IMO.

BigA wrote

"Agteach11- I have seen 1 pure Plott hound that my uncle brought in from Texas(owner said he wasn't open!) get let out from the truck and open from the second the tailgate dropped and run about a mile loop open the whole way with 3 dogs following behind confused as sh*t only to come back around and be tied back in the truck for the rest of the hunt! Then we took the same dog on another hunt and after doing the same open loop and coming back was sold to a guy for breeding purposes for 1/8 of the cost that it costs to get a dog here from Texas."

What in the world does that have to do with the question at hand. Sounds to me like you made a bad purchase and then passed on a cull for someone else to deal with.....there is a huge difference between a babbling idiot which you had and a dog that opens when it gets scent.

The thing is it really does not matter if a dog is open or silent. The good ones can get it done regardless

I have both open an silent dogs i have taken my silent dogs out and they ran a hog a mile and caught it an the next time i went hunting i took some of my open dogs and caught one 20 yards from the truck on the same ranch that i have been doggin for 18 to 19  years and my dogs can runwith the best of them. My point is i think it all depends on the hog alot of the hogs in my area travel quite a ways and when you get on them they are goin back where they come from and they are not goin to stop till they get there dont matter if you have a dog chewing on there nuts are not. My hound crosses only barks if they are right on the hogs azz and running with there head up not with there head down trailing on the ground they are not barkin a mile behind them i do belief if a dog is blabling on trail barkin behind or barkin out of place or cold trailing a hog that been there 5 hours ago yea you are goin to hav a chase and a long night. JMO

Agteach asked me what kinds of experience I have with Open dogs and I stated every experience I had off the top of my head and from that I have built my opinion that I will stick with silent dogs. Whether you like my opinion or not I will still hunt the way I do, I suggest you do the same! Good luck!

We have watched hogs avoid dogs from helicopters and also ran hogs with radio collars on them.  In general, it is 50/50 if they line out and leave the county at first bark.  I am amazed at how many move ahead of barking dogs, but just enough to hide here and there, playing cat and mouse.  It does not seem to matter if the hog is dog wise or not, the strategy they use to evade dogs is not always "line out and leave."  Wild hogs are the most successful survivor on the planet, except for maybe roosterroaches (note: the auto censor on this board will not let me use the 4-letter word ahead of "roach" for a common bug - puts in "rooster" instead --- interesting!  popo)  and man.  They did not earn that distinction by using only one strategy to avoid men with dogs.

I was a dyed-in-the-wool silent cur man for 20 years.  As of the last ten years, I  have seen some semi-open curs and pure hounds, as long as they are fast on the track and willing to bite a departing hog on the rump, do as good on packs of dog wise hogs as any silent dogs, maybe even better.  But where I hunt, if your dog does not go over 1,000 yards, even a mile after a hog, you will never get one.  Why?  Because as of the last five years, they have removed over 200 hogs off this small place with 100% silent dogs.  That is 100% silent full pitt bull RCDs and pitt x BMCs.  Anything that does not run here does not breed its own kind.  The runners that are left breed more of their kind.  They hear a 4-wheeler, hear a horse snort, smell a dog , hear a dog, its a race from the start.  No easy hogs left.

Well played Lionandboarhunter- all depends on the hog! I think that sums it up well, and in my opinion I agree. And I have owned both....hounds for coons, curs for hogs, BUT I have caught hogs with both and been burned with both, all part of the game and all comes with the territory.

I think it truly depends on how fast the open dog runs a track. If he trots along opening his mouth every step then he's not needed.

Sounds like the people on here are using the hogs as an excuse to reinforce what they like in a dog.  The others are saying it confuses them and they want to know that the dog is looking at the hog before he opens.  My answer to all of you is stick to what you like and get to know your hounds.  If you cant tell if your dog is bayed or tracking you should either pay better attention to your hounds or get a Yorkie and stay on the couch.

Claudine322- When you spend $1500 on a dog that is supposed to come from bay competition champion lines and then another 1200 for quarantine which means you wait 180 days after you pay for the dog just to have it reach and disssapoint, You have to recollect your losses one way or another! Here in Hawaii our hunting REQUIRES a cross bred dog so if by bringing the pure Plott here doesn't work there is always someone waiting for the "Champion" blood to hit the islands so that they can mix it into their line for added nose.

As far as me getting burned by his offspring, If that dog was actually chasing a pig I would have been alot more impressed then I am with the pure bred Plotts and would probably have some of his blood mixed into my pack today.

 If you don't mind spending $2700 just to CULL it feel free to contact me and I will send you a "Champion finished main helper dog" with my personal gaurantee that it will eat and crap in your yard daily!

What he said......

Fellas if some of y'all can't post without throwing your smart a$$ comments in... then don't post at all. Share what you know, what you've learned, your views and leave it at that. There's million different ways to do things and everyone isn't going to agree with everyone else.

There's been a lot of that going on here lately. It's getting old and we're getting tired of it. The smart a$$es are about to be culled. ;)

I've hunted both silent dogs and open dogs. I prefer silent dogs but I hunt regularly with some guys that hunt plotts.. I think a silent dog gives you an advantage at one crucial point in the hunt,  at the very beginning before the dog finds the hog. When the hog does not know yet something is after him. I think a silent dog has an advantage at this time and will sometimes bay a hog that an open dog would not have because the hog heard him coming. Now once the hog decides to run, he knows something is after him and he's gonna run either way.
I prefer silent dogs but I know for a fact you can catch hogs with either.. A lot of people don't like hounds just because somebody else said they don't and neither I don't think have hunted with a good one. There are just as many sorry hounds as there are sorry cur dogs. The majority of the hounds I've hunted with were sorry but I've also had the pleasure of hunting with a mighty good one. She was 30 lbs soaking wet and I had as much faith in her as any other dog.. I still prefer silent dogs but I know there are some real good open dogs that are not just running around in the woods barking at anything they smell. There is a difference , just as there is with cur dogs.  Some dogs bay hogs and some don't...

 Matt, reading your post made me think.  You think open dogs are more likely to end up in a gators belly?

Yes I do..

Jagdterriers are not open mouth hounds.  Some are open on track, some mostly silent and some totally silent.  I have nine and they are in the last two categories. In fact I have never heard of an open mouth jagdterrier, except for some very inexperienced posters on another board, making overly broad statements from have hunted with one Jag, one time.  A green Jagdterrier is highly likely to run on open trail mode, but they, like curs and a few hounds, learn to shut-up to catch up.  I have hunted with many curs that are more open on trail than Jagdterriers.

JSH stated it earlier TRACK SPEED is where its at.  Hogs can only run all out for a short while, then tire fast.  If a dog lets them trot and walk, and their trot is about 15 mph, that hog can hold that pace for all day.  But a dog that puts just a little more pressure, so the hog has to break out of that trot every so often, it will tire and bay up.  Then if the dog tries to catch the hog or attack too hard, its off to the races again.  However, if the dog bays it ata reasonable distance it might stand there all day.  If it goes to break bay at a walk, the dog has to hit the back end to out it back into standing mode.  Sometimes if a dog is too hard on the back end, it makes matters worse, and the hog is running again.

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Well said. I too agree with the running and endurance of a hog.

I'm with agteach on this one. I have ran with both and from my experience, if they're going to run they will run, doesn't matter. I believe a lot of times a hound will be running a 5 hour track, and people say "they're pushing the hog" when in actuallity, they haven't even caught up to the hog that is 5 hours away.  I have silent dogs, but to me the sound of an open hound is awesome. I do agree that closed mouth = short hunt and open = long hunt though. I think most open dogs have colder noses. I said most, not all. JMO

my son is a dyed in the wool plott man.  I have plotts too, but they are for special hunts, most the time I use silent curs and terriers.  He would rather run one hog 3-4 hours then catch it and let it go, rather than catch 5 hogs in the same time period with silent dogs.  He is not alone in that regards and catches some quality boars.

I have found most of the hounds (my experience is mainly with plotts, and one walker, and one bluetick) chase hogs too far when they are under 3 years old because they are not fast enough on processing  a track.  When they get older, things get much better, because they are faster.  I shorten my hound chases by tossing in jagdterriers, but even then a 2 mile  to 7 mile race and a 2 hour plus bay is not unusual.  I have been in trouble a few times because of those dogs!   popo

My philosophy is (even though I love hounds) the only reason anyone runs anything else is because there are not enough good curs to go around.

Hunting in Northern Polk County, Florida with opened mouthed dogs growing up in the '80's was a good time.....we would cut the hounds loose and listen to the race for what seemed like hours....as Mickey Mouse and his gang began to develop more and more to the South...those races got shortened by security guards and Game Wardens......(because those hounds can't read signs when they crossed the fence on to ol' Mickey's place.....) So then we went to closed mouth Curs.....and they would bark only when looking at the hog.....and those long races turned into quick catches......and rarely a Game Warden..... So I do have proof to back up my statement....  ;D

Pecos21, What kind of hounds were you running back in the 80's and when did you go to the curs?  What line of curs do you run?  Do you think the length of your races in the 80's with hounds as compared to the current races with curs has anything to do with the fact that there are many more hogs now than there were in the 80's?  What is the makeup of a typical hog in your area?  Around here we had very few feral hogs until around 1990.  That's when they really began to take off around here.  We still have a good bit of Russian blood running around here.  In the mid 80's a guy in town decided he would start raising Russian hogs, so he bought a pen full of brood stock.  His pen didn't hold them for long hence our Russian blood.
     The dogs I hunt with are not wide open.  They will bark on a super hot track and after they see one, but don't just bark without purpose.

Goatcher, What line of curs do you prefer and why?  What line of Plotts does your son run?  When you were feeding the Jadgs into the hound race did you have any trouble with your bay dogs getting cut up?  What makes a hound slower on track?  If a hound nose is on average colder than a cur nose would it make sense that a colder nosed hound may be slower on the track than a cur because the hound is overwhelmed by the amount of scent on a hot track?

We used Running Walkers (foxhounds) down in Central Florida. And the hog population down there has always been large as long as I can remember. My dad ran hogs with dogs in the 70's and they caught lots of hogs. When I switched to Curs, we used Florida curs and Leopard dogs (they were the bigger leopards with the jugheads not like most of the NALC stuff today). I now run a variety of cur dogs. At this moment I have a Campbell Cur and an Outlaw Cur x Catahoula cross.

 The hogs we had where the Pineywood rooters... decendants of the hogs the were brought to Florida by Ponce DeLeon. They had long snouts big teeth and could run like the wind for a long time. But when cornered they would fight. That is the reason I think the Cur dogs did so well because they caught them off guard. So the hog would back into a palmetto head and fight. That is reason I think I have success now...we have a lot of Russian blodd around Van Zandt County, TX. I am not sure how long hogs have been in this area. I moved here in '97 and was hunting them then.

Pecos,  So you are a Texan!  I live in Cass county about 35 miles NE of Longview.  We have a bunch of runners up here, but most of them eventually bay.  Most of our hogs don't seem to leave the country regardless of what type of dogs you run on them.  Most seem to run around in the same area (at least thats what the dog tracks on the Garmin would indicate).  Sometimes up to 7 miles in a 1 sq. mile area.  We have had big boars seemingly intentionally run the dogs through groups of hogs for their own self preservation.  We've had big boars watch quietly as we were hobbling other hogs.  Jumped them laid up in thickets and button willows until you nearly stepped on them on the way to a near-by bay.  We have had times we've had hogs that simply stayed too far out in front that we didn't catch up with.  We have not had a time that I can say we ran them out of the country with open or closed dogs. The last couple hogs we caught bayed up within a mile of where we turned out.  One hunt was a couple hours long and one was about 30 min (would have been about 15 min, but had to drive out of the way to get to where the dogs were).   Some of our hunts last 5 minutes, some 4 hours.  I think regardless of the type of dogs folks run they have all had these short/long hunts.

i  have  hunted  with both  open dogs and  silent  dogs on coon and  hogs ..... i  have  owned  3  different  enclosures from 50  acres  to  100  acres  and  i  now  own  one  300  acres ..... the  open mouthed  dogs  run  the hogs  alot  more  than the  silent  dogs  do .... no  doubt ....  but you can  have  great  hunts  with  both ...... just depends on the hog  you get after ....

Outlaw14slayer

The curs I like fit the Parker Cur model, but I have never owned a full Parker.  I am starting to hate the NALC bay pen stuff.  Some of my friends have them and they fight a hog well, but a 6 month old jagdterrier will out hunt most of them.  I was a bay pen judge over 15 years ago when it all started and I had no idea back then how that nonsense would ruin the world of woods dogs.  My old line of curs were from cowdog lines off the NB Hunt ranch.  Mostly BMC, but they mixed in some leopard catahoulas.  I now have a good  brindle long-legged female, about three years old from Mississippi lines, she is not high energy, but just drifts way off, sometimes a mile or more and ends up where the hogs are.  Totally silent.  I am no expert on curs, just I have caught a mess of hogs and have great memorys with the dogs over many years.  I am very partial to cur x hound crosses, and find 25% redbone or plott in with 75% cur to be my best dogs and the best dogs owned by others I have hunted with.  I currently do not have any mixed breeds.

Between my son and I, we have 5 plotts.  Three of those are from Orval Robert's breeding, fine legged, 35 to 40 pound females built like running fox hound types.  They are not rough at all, but have stick and good noses, and hustle.  The other two plotts are the big old boys, the big game strain from the breedings by Mike Cauley (Bayou Cajun) and Trey Love.  The male is catchy, more than twice the size of the Robert's plotts, and I try to run him alone because he is slow and catchy, while he is still young and learning.

My son has the two blue plotts from Roberts.  I had two black ones from same litter, but gave the slower one to Joey Young (JHY).  She might not make his standards.  But she has found and bayed me a few.

I did not notice more injuries after the jagdterriers go in, until you mentioned it!  Dang, you may be on to something there.  Last spring we had a nasty boar bayed several times.  My son turned in a jag and we got three dogs cut and my cur almost got gutted.  And right before last Thanksgiving we had to leave the dogs and drive around a big bayou, took 2 hours, and my favorite plott Ziggy got cut, as well as all three jags by a 350 pound barr hog that ended bayed in a ditch.  The blue plotts did not get cut.  However, most the time we do not get hurt dogs, we just catch the hogs.

You said:  What makes a hound slower on track?

I think many things, the first is stupid.  The second is youth and inexperience.  I think gamey hounds realize they are going too slow and eventually get faster because they want the game.  Sissy hounds stay slow their whole life because they like to chase, not catch up to dangerous game.  But your theory (above) is also a major factor.  Maybe the most important one.  I notice when my cur runs with the hounds she runs head up and off of the actual track 50 t0 100 feet.  The hounds run the hog's hoof prints.  When they get close to the hog, the cur is 100 to 200 yards ahead of the hounds.  But that was when the hounds were young, now they are so fast none of the other dogs can keep up.  I have a jagterrier that ran with the hounds when they were slower for 5-6 miles almost every hunt.  Now even she cannot keep up for very long.  

I was given a plott puppy by Orval Roberts in 1997.  I started her behind a good silent cur dog, so she had a handle like a cur, and was only semi-open.  My son got a big old cold nosed blue tick hound, Roscoe, as a pup a year later.  The blue tick and the plott eventually became a team.  He would rig strike off of an ATV, she never did.   He would run a cold trail from the day before that she could smell, but she would not line out on.  But when the hog turned on the track or made little loops like they do, Roscoe would scrub the track there for an hour if you let him or even worse, back track.  The plott would figure those things out in a second and they would be off on the right track again.  The plott was the fastest track processor I ever hunted with, she could track on a dead all out run, she just did not have the cold nose of that blue tick.  But sometimes she was running a line so fast, she would overshoot it and the slower blue tick would find the turn first.  He started out his career fairly mouthy, in fact I would complain to my son about that a bit.  But eventually he learned to shut up to catch up and they both made quite the pair for a few years.  Roscoe got killed when my son hand caught a big toothy boar with just those two bay dogs on it.  As he rolled the hog, Rosco piled on and took a tusk directly into his heart.  Roscoe was an example of what you stated, he was so overwhelmed with processing scents, it slowed him down.  I think real intelligent hounds get over this over-stimulation and learn to process scent very fast.  I believe curs are as good as they are because they are smart dogs, maybe more intelligent than most other breeds.  But they too can have their contrary ways.

Goatcher, Thanks for all the good feedback!  Have a great Christmas and good hunting!   

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And I also have mediocore dogs and they will bark on a HOT track meaning if it breaks or is right in front of them .          From My experiance ,  If on a dogs intial seeing a hog bays or even barks at him on first sight and then the hog breaks . It doesnt matter if the dog is silent or open because the hog knows a dog is behind him already.  And beleive me a hog can hear a totally silent dog behind him. Have seen it several times.  The hog can hear the brush and leaves comeing in behind him.   Just from some of my experiance.  I dont mind a dog that barks a little after the hog breaks .  Kinda helps the young dogs go to em and makes em want to stay up with the older dogs.  As opposed to the young dogs only going to a bay an then learn to be a  " Me Too " dog .  Which wouldn't last long at my place. I don't need any help dogs.  I want all my dogs to want to find the own hog or run with the pack .

i agree track speed is a big factor with open dogs. i think in addition to that, an open dog should focus on the hog he started, to tire him out, rather than bouncing from hog to hog througout the hunt.  if he keeps switching hogs, they're always fresh.

ive only heard of a couple dogs that'll stick with the same hog til the end.  ya'll ever hunted behind one?