EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Does anybody own a Thoms YBMC and if so what type hunting dogs or these?

they are all the same dogs as randy wright that has the wethaford ben blood never had one my self but heard good things about them

Thanks, for the information any more would be great.

LionandBoarHunter is correct.  Foundation registered Black Mouths.  A good many carry Weatherford Ben blood, and some do not.  Several people here on the forum have dogs right out of David Thom's yard.

send a PM to grittydog.

I have 2 from Mr. Thoms, a male and female(16 and 18 mth old) and one of my hunting partners has 2. My 2 have found a few hogs. I have been working alot of hours and have not been hunting much. My 2 are short to medium range,silent and not rough. I think my male dog will get rougher as time goes by. I feel that my money was well spent. JT

ok dogs need to get them while they are young if not they might be wild.  Damn good cowdogs

hey outlaw throw them on some cows and i bet they will work.  I only live 10 miles from Mr. Thoms and many people cross his breed up and get a good dog

I've got a little male from David Tom and he's going to be a good one.  I was real impressed by my buddy Andy's dog that he got from Thom.  Andys on the board too and I think he goes by ACuegar.  I think David has some pretty strong blood.  If you talk to David you had better pack a lunch and if you go to his house you had better plan on spending the entire day. 

One of the things that David told me about his dogs that has stuck with me was that he said "I've gotten rid of a lot of good dogs"  I then asked him why.   "Because I only keep (and breed) GREAT dogs".  So that's what your paying for when you buy a David Thom puppy.   

TexasJ, What is the sire and dam to yor dog if you dont mind. JT

I believe my dog is out of Dandy and Sugar. My buddy Andy's dog is out of Hornet and Sugar.  I don't think you can go wrong with  Thoms dog whether it's for cows or hogs. There's plenty of drive in all his bloodlines.

Hey Grittydog, who are your dogs out of?

i highly recommend thoms dogs.  the one i have is a hunting machine.  he gets mad if we head home.  he will lay in the back of the box and make you drag him out.  ive never tired that dog.  he ran 17 miles one night.  he broke himself off javys and cows.  he has a strong winding nose also.

I can answer that one.  Hornet and Sugar.  I liked Andy's dog so much I went to Thom looking for the same cross but I took home a half brother...

My gyp is out of Thoms Randy (Dandys brother) and Chata. My male is out of Colorado and Gato. My hunting partner has a belly sister to my male, and a male from Thoms Hornet x High Sierra. JT

Thoms Randy x Lucys Chata
(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/grittydog/P1130203.jpg)
Thoms Colorado x Thoms Gato
(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/grittydog/P1130663.jpg)

Estabons Dogs
(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/grittydog/DSC05843.jpg)
Cant wait to see how they turn out
(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/grittydog/E-pups.jpg)

them dogs got some good leg to em.   they all look pretty good to me.

Outlaw14,
Did he get his money back or did he get more pups?

My Dandy X Sugar.  He's pretty rough with lots of drive.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2493/3744427103_58f306273d_o.jpg)

good looking dogs anyone know a man named Dudley Thoms from that area we were in the army back in 69 at Fort Bliss El Paso Texas and Fort Wachuca Arizona. He sang a lot of George Jones in a band out there

I will put my hands in the fire for my dogs from mr. Thoms!!! great dogs!!!!

I got a one year old from mr thoms. His name is Zane and he is the most beautiful bmc I've ever seen. He's my pride and joy. I've worked him since I got him at four months. He is original weatherford Ben blood. Mr thoms has gorgeous dogs and guarantees them to work. If I had had the money laying around I would get another one from him

Sound like it would be a safe bet to buy one from MR.Thoms.

i forgot to mention, my dog jefe, thinks he is a catch dog also.  the last 4 hogs he has been on got him staples.  he has no quit to him.

Andy, Why don't you post a pic of Jefe...

That would be good to see some PIC'S of them Thoms YBMC.

im hunting him tonight.  ill try and get a pic of him tonight or tomorrow. he looks like other bmc's except with a pink nose and no mask.  ill see what i can do texasj.

A couple of pics from Mr. Thoms kennels. These are the Dams and Sires to my dogs.
(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/grittydog/gdf.jpg)
(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/grittydog/ChataGypsMom.jpg)
(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/grittydog/HPIM0362.jpg)
(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn137/grittydog/HPIM0353.jpg)

I'll tell ya'll something funny about when I was there with David.  We' were out back by his kennels and he reached in his pocket to handle his money.  I've been to his place twice now and both times he wasn't shy about pulling out his money clip and flashing the big bills.  The wind was blowing real bad that day and he had a rediculous amount of $100 bills on him.  He had a puppy on a leash the same time he was handeling that money and the puppy pulled and that money started flying everywhere.  LOL.  There's one thing I didn't do in that situation and that's help a man pick up his money.  I started stepping on the money to keep it from blowing around. [in this situation, I thought it was more polite not to pick up the money, that way there was never a doubt I handeled any of the money].  

I really think he is a man in this world that is "doing well" because of a consistant income from his dogs.  From what I understand, at least 2 of his 4 welping boxes have puppy's in them at any given time.

That's a funny pic there, grittydog.  Funny because it looks like a "been there done that" type cowboy there with his dogs........until you notice the bluetooth phone dongle hanging on his ear.

How times have changed...

I have some of the same dogs, good gritty bay dogs, only bad thing I can say is some start hunting pretty late.  He does sell 50+ dogs a year, but if they are good stock, they are good stock doesn't matter if he sells 100 a year..

Really!  I'm really sorry to hear that.  I think the luck of the time you happened to go down there put you on the slim pickens of what was left from his current litters.  I still thought that little female would of turned on and bayed because she barked plenty when I had her for that short time (I just couldn't ever catch her).  Thats her brother I posted a pic of up top.  He's going to be a good gritty dog for me.  

That's going to be a pretty good road trip drive for you to take those dogs back.  Weren't you from Texarkana, something like a 11 hour drive?  So are you going to get your money back or try some other puppys?

If my memory serves me correctly, Mr.Thoms mentioned that he guaranteed all his dogs. And that of all the years he only had dogs brought back one time.  I believe Mr.Thoms described some irregular circumstances surrounding that instance.  Didn't he say [that after a year if the dog didn't work he would take it back] and that was his guarantee???

My question is if I'm mistaken or does he have a return instance higher than just one.  Seems to me there would have been more than just one dog returned after so many years of puting 50+ puppys out.  Even if you do have the strongest bloodlines that exist...

One thing to remember with the ben dogs is that ben was bred to over 30 bitches in his life.  I have no doubt that there were some females that should not have been bred.  It is my understanding that Randy and Mr Thoms do not hunt their dogs, so some of these dogs will be pasture dogs...meaning they will bay like champs and are pretty aggressive, but when it comes to the woods, they will not have what it takes, because the dogs have not been bred for their hunting ability...It is imperative that you know the hunting ability of the dogs before you buy pups (for better % of turnout)..

i've gotten dogs from david. good dogs. i use mine on cattle. my sugar/hornet gyp is as good as they come. she'll go DEEP to find cattle.
NOT a short range dog. super smart at reading bad situations. not real catchy on cattle, but reads cattle well enough to know when teeth are needed. my chata/ colorado gyp started easy as pie, at 4 and a half months, super catchy/rough, would as soon catch as bay, at 6 months i use her like a finished dog (she is definatly not finished but you can rely on her better than most broke dogs i've been around). both have a ton of bottom and were flighty as hell as pups (which i like). the sugar/hornet gyp and my male randy/coyote were a little tricky to start, i'd say 90% percent of dog people would not have got them started, but once started they never looked back. these are dogs where patience and sense definitely pays off. none of mine have been real short range dogs. the male has a little bit of bottom problems since he heat stroked as a yearling but is still a way above averge cow dog.

I can't speak for Mr Thoms, but Randy uses his dogs for finding and working cattle. All his dogs are worked, as is easily seen on his website. He will only breed the most exeptional dogs that prove themselves. They are breed to be inteligent, hard working, and hard hunting dogs. The dogs are guaranteed to work, period. If they won't work great on what ever they are put on, he will be the first to CULL when needed, pasture dogs and dogs that don't work will have no place in Randy's breeding program.

Fella's, y'all went way off track here. If y'all want bad mouth lines of dogs, do so in private.

My take got deleted 8)

Anyway, I prefer a cur dog who has been produced from hog hunters who have line bred their pups for years...I will just say it like this if mom and dad and Grandad and Grandma and so on didn't hunt hogs, and aren't line bred, I don't even want to waste my time trying them.. Life is too short to throw dice :o :o

Well, let me add this, if you get good cow dog stock from men like Ben Jordan who use their dogs on big acreage to hunt and find cows then that would be an exception....Ben Jordan and Clue Anderson use their curs for this and breed them for hunting ability.  So, dogs from this type stock will be as good as any.  I have yet to see a foundation dog not bay a hog, but have seen several (and owned some) who would not get out and find me hogs (but would eat them up in a pen)..These men prove their dogs and breed for themselves, so they typically use their best producing dog to breed their litters.  When you use several dogs as breeders, you will produce many culls...It would take you years just to get good feedback from people to see what you are producing.  I don't want to be part of an experiment, I  would like to see offspring of the pair doing their thing...

Hello Mike,

As a "customer" of David Thom's Kennels I am interested in what other "customers" responces are. While my purchase and experience with Thom's dogs have been positive I am sure that other peoples opinions could be a little different. I realize that ETHD was not set-up to be a bashing board, but it is a public forum.  And as a public forum, it provides a platform (which was never possible in the past) for "customers" to share information.  If sharing negative experiences are provided in a respectful and tactful manner, their contributions are just as helpful as the positive ones. 

I would like to use ETHD as a platform to hear what other customers have to say.  I would like the ability to cross reference my understanding from David that " of all the dogs he has placed, dogs have only come back once".  Other customers ( such as myself) can have better confidence of returning a dog after knowing there have been more than one dog returned.  Personally speaking, I paid what I considered "top dollar" ($800) for 2 puppys.  I returned one of the puppys after a month because I did not feel she was worth the money I spent (this return policy was o e of the reasons I paid the higher than normal amount).  Other people might share in my experience and gain confidence to return their dog as well.

I am very happy with the male dog I have from David.  I am very impressed by my buddy Andy's young dog from David.  I believe David's kennell operation and blood lines are first class.  Mr. Thom is also a very fine business man.  That all being my personal opinion, I believe this thread was started to inquire / share information of other people who are customers.  I hope that contributions to this thread would be allowed to be both positive and/or negative (as long as they posted in a respectful manner).     

Josh, it's fine to discuss the positives and negatives on issues... but like you said, do it respectfully. Some folks just have a hard time doing that. But that's ok, those get taken care of.

The problem on this thread is that they weren't even talking about Mr.Thom's dogs anymore... they went off on another man's line.

Wrong Mike....Both men have the same dogs and the same line..They are friends and Foundation Breeders...

DGDawson do you still have WBen dogs on your yard?

Yes, I am not downing the dogs...Great dogs...My point is that to have the best luck with getting a hog dog, you would be better off by getting one from hunting stock.  I also don't believe you can just grab any foundation dog and breed it and get great pups.  I believe in genetics, but that is pushing it a bit...I believe you should prove a stud dog in the field and in the breeding ring...

Greg,
Your so right, both men have the same line of dogs and both are TDHA members.
If you want to learn about the lines just call them but if you don't want to stay on the phone a long time, best not to call.
These two men have a world of knowledge and are willing to share.
I have a Wben registered pup that is a year old and will be working with him.
Have had other breeds of B/M and some turned out good and some were the exception.

David Thom and Randy Wright are long time breeders of B/M.
They live to work their dogs and breed to pass on what they have learned, no one breed pleases every one but like their policy, like it or bring it back.

Guys - I don't believe I was bad mouthing the men...I just don't believe you can breed any foundation dog and get all great dogs...I have talked to David, good man...I just believe that if I were starting out I would rather get my pup from someone who line bred hog dogs....I have foundation dogs in my yard, I also have non-papered hog dog blood in my yard.  I am just trying to let new hunters know that there are better options than paying $500 for a pup they may or may not turn out.  Unfortunatly, many people bond with their dogs, and after keeping the dog for 1.5 years are going to keep it.  Now, those that view the dog as a tool will take it back (evidently this never happens)...

I realize that, but this thread is about Thom's dogs from Thom's yard... y'all went way off track on Randy Wright's program. And yes, from my view point there was some bad mouthing on a few of those posts.

That's another good point, but most old timers that have a line of hog dogs... no one can get their hands on them. Unless you're a very close friend or family member, you'll never see these dogs for sale.

The only thing that I said that could be taken for bad mouthing is doubting that WB and Bounty Hunter never threw a cull....and also doubting that they could routinely run 16-18 hour old tracks..These statements can be see free and clear on wrightscurs.com...  WB was bred to 40+ females...so lets say they had an average of 5 pups each breeding.  Now we have 200 WB pups, of which maybe a 100 were males...Does anyone out there know of any sons of WB except Yellow Jacket and Bounty Hunter?  If you can breed just any foundation dog and get great pups, then why are these the only ones you hear about?  I have Yellow Jacket (imho the best blood from WB) blood and I have some culls...

That's another good point, but most old timers that have a line of hog dogs... no one can get their hands on them. Unless you're a very close friend or family member, you'll never see these dogs for sale.

True, but I have had some success in asking them if I could come hunt with them and then getting them to like me.  Once they know that I am serious about leaning dogs, I can get one or at least get a female bred. If you show up in an old timers yard (and he isn't crazy) and tell him you have heard he has great dogs and ask what would it take to get some of his blood (if he liked you) he will help you..  Most of these people just want to know you are serious about dogs and that their pup wouldn't be wasted.

That wasn't all that was said, that wasn't how it was said, and you weren't the only one saying it... now I would suggest you quit pushing the issue as it's already been resolved. ;)

Ok Mike you win....Maybe I could have said some things diff.  this is a message board and things can be written and read the wrong way.  Since you resolved it, I will try not to bring it up again.

I question whether David Thoms is an annual due paying member of the TDHA.  Typically, folks who are members are proud of that fact.  I could be mistaken, but my memory serves no recollection of David mentioning any membership outside his black mouth registry.  I know for a fact that I asked about any other involvements and can not recount any.

I question whether David Thoms had ever paid a membership due to TDHA. (You might make him some kind of member by default because he has devoted so much to maintaining high breeding standards for BMCs, but he's not driving around town with a TDHA sticker talking about how great it is to be a member.  

Dawson, do you have any pics of them Yellow Jacket dogs of yours working?

none here at work..  http://kdsblackmouthcurs.com/hunts

Some of our dogs, most have wb blood..

I want to say this... This post is not aimed at any man, breed or any particular line of dogs. Its one of those deals that if the shoe fits……
It really is this simple.. A good dog can come from anywhere.. he is were you find him. The trick is reproducing it with consistency over a long period of time, that separates the good lines from the average in the long haul There are no shortcuts to achieving that either, it takes years of work, education, culling, hunting, on and on. Most of all it takes being honest with yourself first.
Another truth is, the definition of what good is all across the board depending on each man’s opinion and criteria for what that is and what his personal definition of that is.
Another truth is, if a man (any man, any breed) says he don’t have culls, run from him as fast as you can.
One more, if it sounds to be good to be true, guess what?
 The dog world is as full of groupies as the entertainment world is for whatever reason or motive. The Internet is full of them, some wanting to ride on another mans success or reputation or to be a part of something. Others don’t really know and run with the ball. Listen to them and you hear the catch phrases and like claims made by their mentors, it aint hard to figure out where it came from and why. 
A person has a motive for what ever he dose, right or wrong, good or bad, discover what that is and you will know more truths and be better equipped with how to deal with it. Listen to your eyes, not your ears.   I can’t tell you how many times and people over the years that I have tried to go or gone to look at dogs and hunt with people, some that have been mentioned on here and been totally disappointed with what I saw or what I found to be the truth. In fact, 95% of them make some excuse and wont even take you or show you. Why? Like anything else, if you are knowledgeable enough and will be honest with yourself with what you see, you will be way down the road with getting to where you want to go when it comes to the truth.
 I did not see any of the post that apparently were removed but Dawson, I have to say I do agree with much of what I read on this at this point.  There is so many things that go into all this it is impossible to write it in one post but one of them that I agree with Dawson on is this. I have always believed, no matter the breed, if you want a hog dog, go to a man who actually hog hunts consistently and knows what he is doing and has been doing it a long time and been raising his own dogs for many years. If he can’t take you to the woods and show ya, don’t buy (forget about reputation or what you see in a bay pen, Its go find, track, stop and bay that matter in a hog dog). Same can be said for bear dogs, cow dog, bird dogs, tree dogs or any kind of working dogs. Forget the talk, the hype, the PR, the reputation, the man’s name, the breed, go see for yourself. That is, once you are educated enough you fully understand what the heck you are looking at. Don’t go once, go several times.
I also agree with Dawson on this, you bet, any man, any breed, if he produces enough dogs a year a few of them sure as heck should turn out but what about the rest of them you never hear about? What actual percentages of them actually turn out to be decent? Tell me a bout the man who is calling him decent so I can make up my mind what I think of his opinion. More over, how they heck do they really know? Truth is, they don’t. It’s the few you do hear about and turn out that keep the program alive and thriving and in some cases the $$$ rolling in.

No, we don’t sell pups, we fall into Dawson’s description of men who have raised the same line of and hunted dogs for many years and don’t sell dogs or pups. I agree with him on that definition to.
I don’t say that to mean there is anything wrong with selling dogs or pups, but, $$$ signs change people, motivate people and cloud truth to many times and that’s just a 10000% fact. Ego and power do the same thing. The truth ain’t always a warm fuzzy or kind.
Past that, what dose it all matter anyway, each feller should do what they want to, they are the one’s footin the bill.

For those wanting to find men who hold their dogs accountable look no further than Skoal and bigO...I wish I had known about them a few years back.  I would have went and camped out at their door to get them to give me one of their better culls ;D

Skoal - Still waiting for you to post on the cur board and tell us about the bunny hugging nurse :laugh:

x2

Skoalbandett, excellant post. Very respectful and 100% truthful... thank you.

skoal you hit the nail on the head

If i start a line of Ellis Curs will yall talk about my dogs this good ;) ;D  One of these days Bryant will get me one of these good bmc Hint Hint ;) ;D

skoalbandett ,

On the money.  Camp out for a while.

Mr. skoalbandit
  glad to see you are feeling well enough to give us some good feed back,  thanks for posting the truth.

Any one that would like to meet Mr. David Thoms and see his dogs work, they will be at the Working Dog Expo first week end in March 2010 and will be putting on a Demo for TDHA along with Gilbert Thompson.

The Thoms are members in good standing with TDHA and have offered to do what ever they can to help out in our trying to Protect and preserve the right to hunt and use working dogs.

Thats good to know, he is doing alot more for the sport than I am. Good looking dogs, Randy Wright has some good stuff as well I just had some bad luck with some tall stories but I think they are doing a lot of good overall.  ;)

that was the best post on the forum hands down i spoke with skoal bandit awhile back an can only wish i had the knowledge that gentelman has

I made a reply on here during the THoms Blackmouths thread saying that I purchased two pups from Thoms and that they are not making the grade and will probably take them back.  This is a true statement but to clear things up I have spoken with Mr. Thoms on numerous occasions about what the pups have been doing.  In NO way was this to be taken as Mr. Thoms being dishonest and a crook.  Mr. Thoms guarantees his dogs to work on whatever you train them on.  This means the dog is to satisfy you in whatever you want it to do, if not bring them back and he will give your money back or let you pick a different pup.  The guarantee till a year means you are to work the dogs until they are a year before Thoms wants you to bring them back.  To my knowledge Mr. Thoms has always been honest and straight with everyone he deals with.  It seems as if there are people on this forum that like to get stuff started and repeat things a little different than the way they actually heard them.  If you do not understand what I am talking about then don't bother asking, if you do know what I am implying about people calling Randy Wright to get things stirred up in order to TOOT your horn then feel free to get in contact with me through a PM and we can get things straight in person!!!  It is ridiculous how grown men like to act like a bunch of DAMN SCHOOL GIRLS!

Hey Agteach11! I'm not sure if my question got left on the previous page and just never got noticed but I was curious if the pup doesn't turn out after a year and you take it back and opt for another dog do you get another 8 week old pup or one that is firing at 1 year old?? Just curious how this whole gaurantee works out, If it was me I would be pretty let down after working a pup for a year just to have to start back at the basics with a new pup and would just ask for a refund.

dgDawsonBMCs ,   In this link you posted ,  http://kdsblackmouthcurs.com/hunts  ,     the 2nd picture from the top,  where was that picture taken ?  I tink i reconize the place.   popo   LOL   

pm sent.. I don' know where most of the pics were taken on that website, but the second pic is actually me in North Lousiana at a guy named Marty Capers place back in about 2004..  Yes, it is a 300 acre penned area...you caught me ;)..

skoalbandett

Been reading all of this and that was a great great post.
I will say this when a man starts to breed numbers of liters for money and not for himself that is when the dogs take the hit and the quality starts to fall because once the $ becomes involved it clouds the mind and becomes the focus more so than the quality of the animals he are she is breeding.  Also I will never believe any dog are any animal for that matter if he is bred numerous times has never produced a cull , don't believe it never will , its impossible just aint going to happen and throws up red flags for me .  People want to have the best but there is big differences between great bred dogs and great peforming and even more so with great producing dogs .  You can wad up the super papers, the registerys, the fancy names and all the hoop lie that goes along with them and throw it in the trash, its worthless if the dog is no good.   The eyes are the windows of the soul believe what you see with the dogs work not with his name are how he is bred are who bred him as a lot want to do these days.  I say all of this in no disrespect towards no one just from long hard experince.  The big  $ change everything.

X 2    X 2     SPOT ON

If the man is giving a guarantee and honors it then it doesn't sound like he is letting money cloud his vision. The best breeder I know in Georgia doesn't give a guarantee or trial. He sells pups for about $150 and on started dogs he gets $900 and up without a guarantee or trial. He will show them in a big pen and in the woods. All dogs are a gamble, some just better odds than others.

Thanks guys.. I sure meant no harm to anyone it was just a small part of what I believe is true and hopeful helpful to folks starting out if they choose to listen.  

Agteach11...
 I understand what you mean and I don’t think you meant any harm to the man. Truth is, sometimes the truth and history isn’t warm fuzzies. There is a long list of folks out there that when you have something to say they deem negative about some fellow or lines, well they have a hair trigger just waiting to pull it with vigor, without regard to the truth or history. It is because of some other motive or cause.
I understand you are not doing this but, for some reason some people see or in your case, think that others see the failure or success of a breeding, dog or a single dog or pup as a reflection of the entire line, their own or others worth or ability as a dog man or the worth of a breed or line. That just shouldn't be the case. Every breeder has culls and makes mistakes. Then with some breedings, a feller has some luck and yes there are a few breeders who consistently produce pups with ability. But I would tell him, a mistake or two or quit proving them and he can loose it real quick. Breed for looks and see how long it takes to shipwreck what you had. Breed for bay pen dogs and see how long it takes to loose the find and track qualities in your dogs. Breed cow dogs to work in a 100-acre pasture where he can see the cattle, then go send him to find cattle in a 5,000 acre piney woods forest and see what happens.
 It’s all part of it, they are just dogs. I fail to understand why that fact is such a contentious thing among dog people. IF we all just told the truth and admitted to having culls, breeding for different things, likes and dislikes and dealt with it properly, we'd all get further down the road with fewer bruised egos and relationships. My dad always said.. Son the truth will always set you free.. So truth is truth, warm fuzzies or not.
Guarantees:
Pups fail, breedings fail to produce what is hoped for and expected, and many people / hunters fail. Sometimes it's impossible to know which is the case. I can understand why some folks don’t offer guarantees because often times, it is not the breeders or dogs fault. Sad truth is if someone gets a cull, they often wont go back and try again. They tend to judge the man and his dogs by one individual dog or because ole so in so said so. That may be a mistake on their part. I don’t know a good dog man, a long-term successful breeder that don’t have a bone yard they could burry a semi in. I know of a very few of the puppy folks who will admit it.
The year old guarantee thing would bother me,,, contrary to popular internet opinion and claims by the snake oil salesmen, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt the vast majority of the time, it’s still guess work as to weather a dog will make it or not, in the woods ayway..
Me if I bought a pup, I wouldn’t expect a guarantee.. I’d do my homework on the man and his dogs and take my shot understanding full well the risk and or reward of my actions.. If I bought a started or finished dog, I’d go hunt with him. Not once but several times, every dog has good days and bad.

Very good point, Skoal

skoalbandit, you seem to have a very good grasp on the truth about dog breeding. I have had dogs a long time and I have yet to see ANY litter of dogs, where they all turned out to be exceptional dogs. I mean dogs I bred or anyone else's. There will always be dogs that are better than their littermates (even if they aren't top dogs). Now whether thats from breeding/training/different owners....who knows.

I 100% agree though, that if any guy sellling pups says he has never produced a cull...take your hard earned money and run away from him...fast.

Selling pups has been discussed several times on this board and I got some negative feedback because I sell my pups, when I have a litter, instead of giving them away. I see no reason why a man that has all the time and money invested in his dogs and breeding shouldn't be able to recoup some of his expenses. I raise a litter only every couple of years normally and always have a waiting list for pups. I have a list of guys wanting pups now and two are from this board.

However, that isn't reason enough for me to breed two dogs. I think this is the difference between someone who is raising dogs for money and someone who is raising them for themselves......I only raise a litter when I need dogs or when I find the right male and the right female for a cross I want to make and have to make it before I lose one of the dogs.

My JJ female (who is 6 years old) is in heat right now. I bred her to my Monkey dog once (her only litter) and those pups are 1 1/2 years old. Most are REAL rough and I am trying to breed in more bay and less rough so I won't make that cross again, unless the young dogs really turn around.

If I was just interested in selling pups, she would be in the pen with Monkey now as I sure wouldn't have any trouble selling the pups.

I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread, just saw where there was a lot of discussion about pups and money and thought I would throw in my viewpoint since I do sell my pups.

To me , selling pups isn't by itself a bad thing...but if you sell 100 pups a year........hmmmmm

No reason a man can't sell a few pups...as long as he is proving the dogs he could be able to sell a few litters and no harm done (imho)...It is when you start breeding dogs that haven't been proven to make the money....A sign to me is when someone always has pups for sale using his different stud dogs....I mean how many people have multiple stud dogs that they all think are the same?  

I will tell you from 30 years experience raising dogs that a top performing, prepotent male dog that consistently produces dogs that are as good or better then he is, is as scarce as hens teeth......and a female that fits the above is even harder to find.

And gentlemen thats a fact that NO true dog breeder will ever deny........

I am always looking for a top male cur dog to breed to, have hunted with dozens and 99% of the time I am dissapointed in what other guys "think" are really good dogs. Problem as I see it is, they have no idea what a good dog really is. Of course, my opinion is different than many I am sure, but I want a dog that will hunt, find, bay and keep bayed a hog by himself, with NO help and do it consistently.  Its amazing how few dogs there are out there  (percentage wise) that can do that....let alone produce it!

I couldn’t agree more Cracker..
If a man gets to own just one in his lifetime of as you say  “ top performing, proponent male dog that consistently produces dogs that are as good or better then he is “ he can count his lucky stars. That combination of talent and ability in the woods and breeding shed is truly rare. My family and I have been consistently using, hunting and raising cur dogs for nearly 40 years and I can basically count on one hand the one’s I have seen. But you know what, that same principle is true with many animals, Race horses, using horses even show cattle. That is just the way it is. As well bred as they may be, as well as a man may plan it, I am of the opinion when it dose happen; they are freaks they are so rare.

That problem of folks definition of “Good” is something I am very aware of and have brought up many times, it truly is all over the board. If interested in a man’s statement for some reason or for his own use, it’s dang wise to investigate the man making the statement as to his knowledge, ability, honesty and motive. I mean, If I am interested for some reason, want a pup or want to breed to a dog, let me see his definition of good at work, see if works for me.

Cracker, I see nothing wrong with a man selling pups or dogs.. It just depends on the man, his motive and the situation. A man doing what you say you are, I totally understand it. It’s when the small or large puppy mill folks, snake oil salesmen with all the false claim, lies, deception and promises about a pup come into play is when I have a problem with it. I haven’t ever sold pups but if I did and even with the ones I give away, I tell them, I don’t know if that pup with be worth a flip or not. He could or should be at least decent if given the opportunity. His mom and dad are, (we don’t breed unproven dogs) But a man don’t really even know till he sees the finished product.  I tell them we get some culls and one of our own pups could be culled any time along the way to becoming a finished dog for any number of reasons. I also tell them to forget about the 9 month old “super dog” because contrary to what many say, they aren’t gona be finished at 1 ½ or 2 years old, not a hog dog or cow dog anyway. You just have to know what you are looking at when you see it and judge accordingly all along the way. You have to hunt them and expose them consistently; there are no short cuts.  Best thing, when you go to the woods with one, don’t see and concentrate on the 2 good things you see, watch, see and acknowledge the 20 bad things you see, expect them, react to them and deal with them.


If a man wants to know if he probably has a good dog, I totally agree with a statement you made and it is something we do with every dog at some point.  The final test is… send him by himself, go see if he can consistently find, track, stop, bay and hold a hog by himself… Key word is consistently. Till then I call him decent or pack dogs if they made it that far.

Just my opinion

There's some good & factual righting here that made me think about the post I made about a nine month WB dog that I have that has a natural ability to find hogs but I want to clarify that he's not a finished dog and has alot to learn where we hunt they run bad so We'll see

skoalbandit, I think you and I are on the same page about dog breeding. I never breed a dog that doesn't perform in the woods and often times I won't even breed a dog until they are 4-5 years old. I want to see what the dog is capable of, what its faults are, etc so I can try to breed to a dog that "hopefully" can help correct what I don't like (i.e. if a dog is hot nosed I will usually breed to a dog with a better nose hoping the pups will have better noses).

Of course, it rarely works out this way, but thats dog breeding!! But I don't have "brood" females and I don't breed unproven dogs.

I hunt one dog a lot of times, or one old dog and one young dog. Right now my Monkey dog is my main dog, as my JJ female got her bottom jaw broke and I just never got my Red female back in shape from having her first litter of pups 9 months ago. She got a tendon cut in her front leg a few years back and gets gimpy after a day of hunting, so I don't push her. Both of these females were hunted pretty hard the first 4-5 years. They turned 6 years old last Oct (they are littermates). Each has had one litter and I am just waiting to see how the pups turn out.

The old Dixie female I have suited me better than any dog I have ever hunted with. She was just the complete package. Unfortunately she got cancer, had to be spayed, and I never got a pup from her. I would have loved to have had a litter of pups from her, just to see if she could produce anything close to her.

I agree that a GOOD dog is open to opinion, but if you have a top dog, I feel he should be able to hunt, find, stop, bay and keep a hog bayed alone...consistently....or to me, he isn't a top dog.

You will NEVER see me with 4-5 of my dogs on the ground...ever. I want to know what dog is finding the hogs, so I hunt 1-2 dogs max. That way I know who is doing a good job.... and who is screwing up!!

how do you get ahold of Mr Thoms? 

Getting in touch with Mr. Thoms
http://www.blackmouthcurcowdogs.com/

Just came across this post. Great info and opinions. Just want to lay down my 2 cent.


The good ones aint for sale and the best breeders aint in it for money.         

"JMO"

yes david is a well respected breeder in our orginazation cant go wrong he has been doing it a long time
 if some reason he dont have what you looking for give me a buzz I have 3 litters on the ground and many started dogs too 575 693 8491 happy hunting  ;D
steven dallas
4D kennels

Started doing what? Hog? Cow? Barking at or going finding?

Skoal Bandit Great Post!!!!!  ;) Most people that produce Great dogs or pups, I have found wont let you have any of them.  ;D They keep them for themselves and cull the rest the right way. Look how many people are tryin to get there hands on anything called "a Parker" It could be a plain black dog that's barked at a hog once but if it's a Parker its worth the world!!!! I hope one day my pups are wanted like that and have a reputation for Go Yonder dogs. I have had a few high priced Randy Wrights dogs and was not impressed. Like Skoal said there is a difference in taking a dog to a 100 acre pasture then goin to a heavily wooded 5,000 acre pasture and telling him to go Find One!!!! I have seen some Great Yella dogs off Ben or Reno but they were from very small kennels or friends that owned them. Seems like Mr.Thoms is doin it right from all the feedback on here, he sure has some good lookin dogs. Im a Hog Hunter first, I would rather be catching hogs and training my dogs then raising and selling pups.