EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Just curious as to what they are used for i heard some buddys of mine talking about getting one.

generally used for hog doggin in australia. Finder/holder type of dog. I doubt you buddies could find any with hunting lines in the US. I dont think that they are even a recognised breed. Probably gonna have to have one shipped from Australia. Thats gonna be a pretty penny and a pain in the a$$

Ive hunted behind Bull Arabs in Australia.

I was pretty impressed with the dogs. These two dogs seemed better at sight hunting than trailing but I only had one hunt with them and couldn't evaluate the dogs like I would need to in order to give you a decent run down on them.
Those dogs found and caught several good hogs for us that morning and did it all including catching on command. The hogs were between 120 and 200 lbs and I was pretty impressed with how these dogs handled them.
They look like some kind of Great Dane, Dogo cross to me but I couldnt tell anything about the breeding.

I would try one if I could get a pup from those guys.

Check out "Brian Niels bull Arabs" they are purty cool looking dogs. I think they used bull terrier, German wirehair, Dane and mastiff?  just the Ozzie's version of cur dogs but more sighthound than scenthound.

Here ya go,i was going to bring a breeding pair back with me at christmas time but the shipping time and fees were a pain in the rear,i like em!
(http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu59/roos_01/CIMG1366.jpg)

Good looking dogs.

Not to be a pain or know it all, but for that much money you can make your own. No tellin if the dog is gonna turn out so why go thru that much trouble. The recipe is already over here. Just my opinion. :P

You would be in a whell chair by the time you crossed them up enough to get the right mix.If you started from cratch.Look how many generations of men it took to get the dogs we have of today.

THE ONE ON THE THE TOP ROW FAR RIGHT IS A GOOD LOOKING DOG! WELL PUT TOGETHER

All the Aussies I know are very good with dogs!

if you don't mind me asking how much does the shipping fees and documentation cost??  i'd like to get a good staghound or bullygrey cross from over there.

Chris did extensive research on this breed including speaking to some guys that use and raise them down under. The dogs were reasonable, but after shipping and quarantine, paperwork, etc. we were looking at having nearly $3500 in a pup that may or may not work.

Imo, a pack of greyhound/pit or greyhound/ab crosses would serve a similar purpose. Probably a mix like 1/4 greyhound would be nice.

I got to use my greyhound on three hogs this weekend. A big sow was leaving on a cur dog puppy who was trying to get it stopped on his own. Sent the greyhound from about 600 yards of open pasture. She ate up the ground and in no time flat had hit the sow and spun her around. Then the greyhound helped bay with the pup. On a smaller hog, she would have caught and held but what I love about her is that she knows when to back up and bay. If you bred in the slightest percentage of pit, the pups would probably be 100% catch.

Cheers
M

Throw a little lab in there and maybe they'll drag one back to the truck  ;) I'd pay 3500 for a dog like that!

It will take a while but there are folks in this country trying to breed a similar dog. I myself plan to breed my dane/pit to my stag/dogo/ab if all works out. Might breed in a bird/bull cross to the mix to add some nose and hunt.

 Whats wrong with the tried and true dogs already in the states. Sounds more like those designer dogs you see everywhere, add some yorkiepoo for attitude and a little chiweenie for bottom LOL.

I agree with what you are saying about tried and true to an extent. I personally own two cur dogs and a pit in addition to my greyhound (who is admittedly a novelty). That said, "tried and true" came from someone crossing this dog on that dog until they got animals they felt were fitting their style. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, but I have never been able to use a cur dog for the job that my greyhound does for me. There are fast, long legged cur dogs out there, and we have owned some good ones. However, I have not seen one yet that can get there like a greyhound. Greyhound has plenty of drawbacks, so I can certainly see wanting to breed thicker bone, more "hold", stamina, and a nose or a desire to use the nose. They have been trying like crazy to get me to breed my greyhound to Clifford - catahoula/ab catch dog. I guess it all comes back to finding the dog that fits one's personal hunting style.

The guy I got my greyhound from used to hunt the heck out of a miniature schnauzer. Said it was an awesome strike dog.

Cheers
M

How differnt are these bullrabs vs the stag x bull crosses some use here? the few I know of that have some of the same blood as Cliffods bulldog side are sure nuff dogs.

G'day,
I am no authority on bull arabs but I might be able to fill in some gaps. They originated through crosses of German shorthaired pointer, Eng bull terrier and greyhound, Bloodhound and I think Eng pointer were added later. They have been around as a type since the 1970s but it was some time after that that they settled into what you see today. They are not a kennel club breed but the bull arab men are working towards that recognition.

I have only ever seen one work, they are more popular in other parts of Oz than my home town. The one I saw work was a 12 month old pup called Bucks bred by a respected hunter and dog man Lee Payne. I don't know Lee personally although we have chatted on the computer. I'll try to post some pix of the pigs he catches.

I know Brian Neal but not well yet. He is a well known name in Oz dogging circles and some swear by his dogs and others don't like the bloke. He's never been anything but helpful and respectful to me so I haven't got anything but positives to say about him. I've never seen his dogs work but there is ample evidence on the Oz sites of his dogs catching plentyu of pigs.

The dogs are designed to be finder holders, the same as most Oz pig dogs. The one I saw at 12 months was happily a one out dog that could find well on the ground and off the tray (rig dog?) Beautifully made animal.

I know most of you guys hunt differently to us preferring specialist finding dogs and seperate holders so the bull arab might not be what you are after. If you want an all rounder though, they might be the ticket.

I hunt my own line of dogs so I haven't got into them but if I had my hunting life over a few times, one of those lives owuld be spent with bull arabs. A man called Peter Paulsen has provided pretty well all the current bull arab stock in Oz after getting original dogs from the dog trader who first did the cross and made up the name as a sales tool.

So that's what I know about them So Brian Neal, Peter Paulsen and Lee Payne would be the three best known breeders I can think of.

As to whether or not it's worth getting one over there, that would be a matter for you guys.  Blokes out here import dogs from overseas just to see what will happen and it's a lot more expensive bringing in a Us dog to here than the reverse because of the rabies etc you blokes have. Our quarantine is super strict.

Anyway here's a pic of Bucks at 12 months with owner Brett...

 

(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9505/northaug2609am.jpg) (http://img43.imageshack.us/i/northaug2609am.jpg/)

I hope to one day have some dogs similar to the bull arabs.I don't want them to do all the huntin though prefering my curs to do that.  I prefer them to be more of a RCD that will hunt with the curs and catch whatever is found. Right now I have 3 large dogs, a AB/PIT/POINTER  male, PIT/DANE male , and STAG/DOGO/AB female. Maybe breed in a good pit/pointer cross into the mix. If anyone is interested in doing some crosses in the near future send me a PM and we can go from there.

Dem are sum big dogs and sounds like they are purty smart,,cross em up with a BMC and I wonder what you would get?

a slower dog. 

Ned,

you're right in the fact that not many hunt in the same style as you guys do.  I just started getting into the Ozzie way, i was a bit skeptical at first but man, it really is effective here.  And i was certainly surprised at the amount of nose a great dane actually has.  I plan on starting my own cross here but am seriously thinking of importing a couple dogs one of which from Mark Simpson or you friend David Wilds.  i really like that DanexDeerhound cross dog.  Soda i believe is her name.  David did say he was gonna cross soda over another Bull Arab to try and reproduce a dog like his Max.  Tried to jump on that but he doesn't think he's gonna have any extra pups because he has a few guys waiting in line already. 

That is likely to be the case but sometimes things happen. Often it's a matter of just getting to know the guys more and beeing patient. I'll talk to a few people...
Cheers.

Great thread. I thought I read on here somewhere that most of the mods dismissed the idea of the RCD as just a fad or a death sentence. Shocking to here that yall are talking about clifford over a greyhound.

I don't know that I have ever read a mod on here badmouthing a RCD, hell I have had some, and still do. ;)

I guess I missed that part too?

In my opinion, most of the country I hunt in a RCD is a death sentence... there's no way to get to them quick enough. In the thick stuff they can't move... you better be right behind your bulldog when it hits. My opinions are based on what i've lived and learned over the past ten years after hunting with hundreds of different people and dogs.

And who might you be... since you obviously know my dog?

I think maybe 5 weeks ago the whole forum was swamped with RCD stuff dog trade, dogs on hogs... every Johnny come lately was posting an RCD thread or ? And you gave an answer just like that one, not a bashing comment just stating the fact that running a RCD can be a liabilty... I think that's what he was refering to. Btw I agree I recently lost my job, got rid of all luxury dogs and tried to hunt my old cat one out TERRIBLE IDEA

to clarify things, I am the one that wanted to cross clifford on foxy,the greyhound. If we bred the two, I planned on keeping all of them and running them as a release at the first barkk pack of catch dogs. I won't run rcd's by themselves though, because I am not sold on the idea of a solo catch dog being caught in a rose hedge thicket.  As it is, we did not make the breeding, and I probably won't do it in the near future, as I have a couple pups coming that will require my attention ;D

Am I right in my assumption that bull Arabs are sighthound type dogs? I have noticed a lot of Australian photos where dogs ride hoods til the hunters spot a pig.  That's basically what I tried with gator a few weeks ago and though it worked well twice the third time he ignored the little pig at the feeder and made a 1/2 mile beeline to a bad boy and niether he nor the boar made much noise and by the time I got to him we were all three tuckered out. In theory I would love a bad ace bull Arab but wouldn't they require daylight and open country?

nope, the vast majority of the australian pig hunters breed for nose first and everything else last.  bull arabs are no exception. i'm sure Ned will chime in on this.  they're riggin those dogs just like guys here do with cur dogs....  letting em wind off the truck.

Correct. We all want nose dogs. Bull arabs are finder holders. Same as our dogs. We also expect our dogs to grab the biggest available whether it's seen or not. There's lots dogs can do if they are bred right and given the opportunity. We have a real crossbred culture here and it tends to release traits that you might not otherwise see in the original parents.
Crossed danes often have an excellent nose, and (don't laugh) crossed English bullys will show remarkable noses. Ours are predominantly wolfhound bully bred down in size but they can find like mad. We mostly hunt steep stuff with blackberries and other scrub so you often have to belly crawl to get to the dog and the pig. The finds can be close or over a mile from the jump. We have one dog, sometimes two loose on the truck and if they wind em they just go and grab it. If the dogs are very good they will grab one each.
RCD as you call them can definitely get cut up or killed but it happens surprising infrequently. Some of that is one or two dogs tend not to trip over one another in the hold and can position themselves better to avoid the drama.
That's the experience here anyway.
Cheers.

so not to high jack but..

Ned,

How often would you say your dogs get hurt i mean..... it's a pretty low percentage like  number of hogs caught to a dog getting injured. 

just trying to get an idea compared to most bay dog hunters.

Ned,

What size dog do you find make the best finder/holders? I realize that holdind style keeps them from getting cut but how tall and how heavy to best controll the larger hogs?

Thanks,
Paul T

Sorry for the delay guys, I missed the questions.
First one first, they will often get little skin rips or small punctures but injuries that require staples or stitches let alone the vet are surprisingly uncommon. Our dogs are not terribly stylish in working a pig, they just smash into them head on if the pig is standing or run beside them and grab if they are moving. It might be that the country is different (although we have blackberries and other tangled stuff that increases risk of injury) or it might be the lack of other dogs bumping into one another. I don't really know and don't know how it would relate to the US situation.
Maybe one (proper) boar in 20 might produce a stitchable wound. Real injuries, life threatening could happen on the first boar you see but maybe one in 50 really cut the dogs up. We dont (and the bull arab blokes) don't religiously go one out on boars but most don't go with more than two dogs because it ends up a bit of a tangle.

On sizes, anything from 25 kgs to 40 kgs will do the job but ideally I like the 30 kgs range (a kg is 2.2 pounds) so a b it better than 60pounds. Height, I'd be guessing, I'll measure some of ours. For us it's not so much the size of the dog as it's will and athleticism.
Cheers.