EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

So... most of the experienced hunters I deal with prefer a catch dog with a bit of brains...

The "camacazi" style is fun to watch,  but misses often and usually gets a good face shot in the process....

Add just a touch of "sense"... and that dog suddenly thinks about the best angle to properly hit a hog, minimizing personal risk, and optomizing grip placement for best control of hog... 

Who wouldn't want that??

Why would I want a dog with the mindset to run hisself into a brick wall... over and over again... "just because he's bred to do it"?????

Sure he's tough, sure he'll die right there tryin'... but does it really help me catch more hogs?   No.

Dogs like this get their teeth knocked out, cut to pieces, and just generally don't last too long...

I'll take a catch dog that has the ability to learn...."think" .... and "listen" when instructed.  Doesn't mean they're any less hard... just with a little added intelligence...

To each his own,  but that's what I appreciate... along with most other dog men I know with way more experience than myself....

 ;D Amen to that! Preach it loud brother!

well as long as they catch its all good lol

i'm still learning(i do have my likes and dislikes and i do have my opionions), but when you say kamikazi style do you mean grab the hog anywhere?

i personally don't need a dog to roll a hog when they catch. i actually like a dog that kinda lopes in and about 1-2 steps out loads it's hips and punches the hog(kinda like tackling..if you just run up out of control you normally miss...but if you come in under control and load at the right time you make a good solid tackle). long as the catchdog hits the head of the hog i'm good. i prefer ear, but i've seen a snout cd that basically shuts off air through the nose of the hog by burying it in the ground and their biting strength.

if a hog breaks as the cd is comin in i definantly like for that cd to hit another gear and grab an ear to shut it down...although if the hog breaks bay i really would like for my baydogs to hit that ass end to make that joker spin enough to let that cd get there and get to the ear...

To continue with the NFL theme... ;D

What's the best hit you ever remember seeing?  Was it a ball carrier trying to avoid an oncoming defensive player?....

OR, was it a ball carrier that was "completely blindsided" by a suprise tackle??

When a hog sees a CD coming in on him hard and heavy, he's gonna be prepaired for that hit... a dog with the sense to loop and come in from behind is much more effective statistically.

This dogo I've been working with is straight, head on, "K"amikazi.... sure is fun to watch him steam roll a hog.... always seems to hit a hog skull to skull....makes a hell of a "crack"  ;D....but I fear he's gonna lose his teeth if he doesn't get a little smarter....

I could understand where your coming from more if you were talking about one out dogs. I expect my baydogs to hold the hogs attention. Its not a one on one thing. I know with our baydogs most of them are not rough but they hit most hogs about the same time as a catchdog. Plus where we hunt there is not much line of sight. Its so thick all the dogs and hogs are in close quarters.

if you know you dog will make a b-line to the hog, is it possible to ease up to the hog from the side so as to help the cd out?

I could care less how the dog gets to the hog, we don't catch too many out in the open anyway...seems to always be in the thick stuff. Their job is to catch and stay caught until removed. The essence of a bull breed (AB, APBT, Dogo, etc.) is heart....quitting or backing off and baying is not an option and unacceptable in a bulldog. The dog doesn't have to be a kamakazi style dog to be a bulldog...it just has to have heart!



I do have a question about those catchdogs you described with sense...what do they do when the hog is bayed up in a washout or blown over tree when they have to go through the hogs wheelhouse to get him caught?

Noah, I couldnt agree with you more! BUT!!!! I believe you are asking for the Hoards to turn Thier catch dogs loose on you for making statements like this.....lol I have good friends that pride themselves in having a catch dog that will hit a hog on a dead run! I have a friend that tells the same story every time he has a new audience, that story is, his pit gyp was the best CD ever! Because!!! get a load of this, she went out in a tank and drowned locked on a big hog, but she never let go!!! this is his finest hog hunting accomplishment. I have watched this dog catch dozens of hogs, she hit them like a freight train, the first time, the second time, and sometimes she actualy caught them on the third try!!! but once she did get hold of them, she wasnt coming off! and once you and your friends finally got her loose it took the whole crew to drag her all the way back to the truck, the entire time she was trying to get loose so she could go back and eat the hog......This was the best catch dog HE! ever saw......NO THANKS!!!

Good question, unfortunately, those "sensible" CD's will usually try that head on shot if it's the only one available.... it's my job as a handler to not force them to make that decision... i.e. bumping the hog out to a more desireable catch location...

10-4 Noah.

Just another quick point...just because the dog has no reverse or quit to 'em, doesn't mean it doesn't have handle.

Ha ha! I’m going to sign up for the Choir! :angel:

Absolutely, work with what you got, as smartly as you can!

Not sayin' I haven't been around some jam-up Kamikazi CD's... because I have... and they done good.  Just have to be way more careful with them...

I remember getting several knocked out cold before I figured out why "not" to turn that type of dog in head on... ;D

I completely agree!

Noah, I am like you i would rather that cd to tip toe in there and get the job done ..My buddy has a gyp that does just that, kind of like a cat, but I tell you what boys I will leg a elephant that she is caught on and I aint seen her get shook off yet cuz it aint no guessin where she will be, she knows where she is going to catch at and she takes the right way to get there...

Noah, I am a dog guy. I dont care if its a rabbit, coon, squriel, or hog dog. I have owned them all at one time or another. I was a very serious coon hunter several years back and had the wins in the big hunts to prove I was a competative handler. After I read your last post I realize you are one of those rare "DOG MEN" You approach each situation with a strategy. I used to spend every weekend of my life competing against guys like you. I found out in those days I could have the best dog in the hunt and get smashed by a lesser dog with a great handler! I think with alot of hog hunters its ALL about catching the hog and not necessarily about the hunt. I just read a post on the Catch  Dog thread going around right now. One member asked another "If they see a hog on the side of the road, stop and cut thier dogs loose on it" he says if they do not bay that hog they should be considered CULLS!  I mean no disrespect to that ETHD member but! just because you Physically SEE a hog does not necessarily mean you are going to catch it! there are so many factors involved and I wont even get into them. I believe most here employ strategy to some point, I mean we all know to hunt into the wind (I think). but how far do we all take that strategy? Only a real Dog man would think to bump a bay to offer better situation for the Pack or the CD. I believe most would just send in thier "Bullet Proof and expendable CD" because "THATS HIS JOB" ???

I agree Noah, I like a dog that drops low and side steps the charge and hits the ear with out all the impact. The dog has got to be able to spread its front legs and elbows wide and get its elbows down near the ground and come up for the ear. Long neck helps quit a bit (my Dogo has a 7" neck). I do not want any hesitation, I just want the dog to adjust its body to give it the best cleanest line to the ear and miss the head to head impact if possible.

 I do believe that a tight  full cut vest does impede the maneuverability of some catch dogs. It might not let them do much more than run straight in and hit. Do y'all think that is true or not?

raider 54, great post ;D

Anyone that thinks their dog is bullet proof has to be from a different planet. Anyone that considers a catchdog expendable doesn't have a clue and I have zero respect for those types.

Silverton, I'm with you on the vests...you've got to find the right one for the individual dog.

raider54 you are referring to me and i take no disrespect to your statement as i have hog hunt long enough to know that just because i see it doesn't mean that we will catch it...i'm not that naive. you obviously didn't read the sentences previous to that...i stated that the dogs hauled butt down the road and never FOUND a hog. i'm sorry maybe i'm expecting to much of my dogs, but if i see a hog my dogs should be able to wind the hog and at least run the track to that hog. the hog may break and run and my dogs may not be able to stop it i understand that...so when you go on a traing hunt with some of your well started dogs..say the hog is like i said 30yds from the truck, do you keep the dogs that can straight to that hog and get to baying or do you keep the ones that are running 100yds down the road "searching" for a hog? i think we would all keep those dogs that went straight to the hog and went to hammering away...again i didn't say to catch that hog i said the dog never found the hog nor tracked the hog...THAT is what i said...

and yes i am one of those people that will try to manuever my cd or the bay so that it is easier for the cd to get there. to me depending on the type of cd you have depends on how you release them to the bay. if it is an older experienced cd that does as we all said we like then i don't mind releasing further out as i know this dog will take the right track to catch the hog. if i have a younger cd or a bline cd i want to see the bay then move the cd into a position to where they can be successful in catching the hog...

I understand what you are saying! Point taken, but in that scenario, it is possible they may not strike the hog! I have seen on many ocassions a coon cross the road you stop turn the dogs out and they never strike it! Im talking about FINISHED dogs! I dont know why? its just happens sometimes. But you are right, what do you keep? You keep the ones that are doing the best. There are so many opinions among hunters on this site, that other catch dog opinion thread has just gotten so rediculous. I just cant read it anymore. I believe in culling dogs but honestly if we followed some of the standards some claim here dogs would be on the endangered species list.

you make great points...on the other thread he just asked two questions and most only deal with the first..no one really responded to his second question..no one really flat out stated if his standards were below most people or equal...i know you have recently been in a similar situation so you have first hand knowledge...

as far as the culling part to each his own, but the only way to get top notch locked in traits is to cull hard. the pit bull is what it is today because they culled VERY hard. any bad signs at any age and they were culled, it was just that simple. when i say they culled hard, i personally know of people that had to cull a dog then go and cull half his yard because he based his yard on this dog. when the dog quit he had to take his breeding in a new direction he didn't want any quitters in his line..THAT is the only way to truly have top notch dogs...not everyone is willing to do that, i understand that. but like i said the pit bull is what it is today because people culled dogs hard because they new it was for the betterment of the breed...i was schooled in breeding by the older timers in the pit bull world so when it comes to culling i was taught to cull hard...VERY hard...hunting dogs is a little different so my opinions aren't always supported..lol.. ;D

One thing I have noticed over the years with "catch dogs" in general is more hog hunters actually "trying" to breed catch dog.
Quite a few are trying to breed better ones. :o  
Nobody I knew of 20 years was breeding dogs for the sole purpose of catching hogs much less trying to breed better ones! Im sure there were a few out there but not many and I sure didn’t know of them.
All the focus was on good hog dogs. Curs mostly with a few cur/hound crosses.  Bulldogs were literally a dime a dozen 20 years ago. Hell! They still wonder up in my yard!

If a bull would just catch a hog 25 years ago he was a keeper as long as it didn’t try to catch your horse or one of your kids. A good catch dog, meeting any of the standards being debated on this board, were pretty dang rare 20 - 25 years ago in my opinion!
Kudos to the catch dog breeders and I mean it!

Now since yall are breeding better catch dogs these days I,ll take one with a dash of brains please! I got money and kids for trade! ;D

Nothing but "good" comes out of these “catch dog” debates as fair as I’m concerned! No matter what your opinion is, everybody is thinking about catch dogs standards. Even me!

i love sports as you can tell with most of my analogies..lol...but this game is like football...20-25yrs ago there were only a couple of kids coming out of high school running a 4.3 -4.4 40yd dash. now a days each state is loaded with them..the game changes and anty is upped. the hogs get smarter, faster, and rougher. so the catchdog/baydog has to evolve with the hogs...

Now everybody think about everybody else perception and definitions here.

You all can think you are on the same page sitting behind a keyboard, but when you see the same dog in action you might all think yall were talking about alot different dogs.

I have watched these links videos and seen other peoples dogs work and come away with a totally different opinions, as I am sure that  my Smoochy walks on water, and the rest of you may think I would be better off with one of those poodles. I like what I like, and you don't have to feed it, vice-versa

in the end who cares what everybody else feeds and brags about on the internet, as long as you are doing right, not harming anybody else, and can look yourself in the mirror.

I was asked by someone today, since I am one that advocates a thinking dog, what I thought about some of these discussion about catch dogs as of recent. thinking about some of the events from the past two years, if I don't know a dog or its background, and someone tells me its caught hundreds of hogs, instead of taking the word on it, I am gonna ask a few more detailed questions. One being are you counting the fetus' in the sows belly? How many of those hogs were over two hundred pounds? how many dogs were also caught on the hog? How many hogs has the dog caught all by itself without any help, over 150lbs, and did you see it hit the hog, or when you got to there hog your dog was hanging off it?
Big difference to me these days when some one tells me the dog hits/catch hard, ect, ect, ect, I almost need to see it to believe it, cause too mjany times my definitions of  caught hard and the next guys are two totally different things . Think About It

Almost forgot - "Don't call it a catchdog until you have seen it ride"

I agree with ugly dog. Good post .

A few points: 1. good post ugly dog, 2. For deusc24's... if you see a hog and the dogs dont bay it up...not often but happens what do you think about when a bay breaks and the hog puts the slip on them never to get bayed again?? cant get a hotter track than that and it happens to everyone sometimes.

3. A smart cd that wont drown in water to stay caught or stay caught in hot weather for an hour while you get there if the bay breaks...does not mean it isnt HARD! A small dose of self preservation in a hard bulldog is Great to have

4. In 4 yrs of using catch dogs the first 2.5 i only had/used hard core short big headed pits, manuevering for a clean catch and then holding clean or not fighting a hog was not in there vocabularly. The past yr and a half i have been behind some quality AB's and Dogos (not saying a pit cant do it I just never owned one) that side step grab the ear and then get body to body with the hog and relax down on thier elbows, they rarely get cut and even though they wont drown under water or wont heat stroke out there is no question that you can leg any hog behind them and will not let go when your about to get there, even though they may fall out after the hog quits moving due to exhaustion from the heat etc. So I am saying i had the til death attitude until recently that i have seen a touch of sence (not to much) my experience has made me wiser  ;D And i listen to guys like Silverton Boar dogs, that would due us all some good  ;)

A lot of people would cull my ridgeback he don't run in and catch he runs in and when the opertunity arises or the pig tries to run he catches and is on for good.  I don't mind that and even like that I don't like stitching up dogs lol know it happens but dtill don't like it when it is my dog

These threads just keep going round and round...bottom line...feed what you like. It is evident that folks have different standards...some more rigid than others. As long as you can live with your standards that's all that matters.

I also prefer brains in my bulldogs, and they seem to have it in the woods. The only problem is that I honestly couldnt tell you the last time that I saw a bay that i turned my CD on.  If the hogs around here see us or hear us they head for TX. I would like to see how my dogs approach a bay, because I would like to be as careful as possible.

I love a smart dog. I have always said a smart cur dog will bay you a lot of hogs. I like a smart bulldog also and have had the pleasure of owning and hunting with some my buddy's have owned that were as smart as they come in my opinion. They would listen like a kid, never have any problem with dog or human agression, sit back and be calm after they were broke off the hog and the hog was tied. And even ride the 4-wheeler right beside a caught hog and not act stupid. And yet I have never seen one of them quit a hog or bay. Once a bulldog bays he's no longer a catchdog to me.
It would be nice to be able to send your catchdog in to and ideal bay in the open everytime but it's just not possible. Noah I completely understand about busting the hog out and getting him in a better place to catch if that's what you wanna do. But around here  you would only get to catch a hog about 1 out of a hundred trips because if you bust him out of the briar patch or thicket he's bayed in he's not gonna stop till he gets to the next one, if he ever stops again at all, which is highly unlikely most of the time. A lot of times you only get one shot at a hog and you better have a dog that you can depend on to catch when he gets there. I don't have a problem with how anybody wants to hunt or what they want to feed and if it works for you that's all that matters. It's just that around here you won't catch many hogs if you have a bulldog that bays or if you started busting hogs and waiting till he got to an ideal spot to send your catchdog. Trust me if it was I would never send another bulldog in to a briar patch or thicket or a deep creek.  :laugh:
And really I mean how smart could any dog be that will catch something that weighs 5 times more and has knives hanging out of it's mouth? Anything that will do that has got be pretty stupid . :D

Chainrated, you bring up a great point, we dont have palmetto groves here in north tx, We have alot of people come to hunt with us from south or west Tx. It seems all of them want to walk in with thier catch dog close enought to see the bay and that just doesnt work here. You will blow out 90% of the bays if you even try. We cut our CD's loose before the hog gets a chance to see or hear us comming

Well I guess I am fortunate to have 2 of the best and smartest cd's around.  When Pedro and Chief hear a bay they set up a job briefing and risk assessment.  Hell I have even seen them dig a tunnel to a boar bayed in a washout, just to sneak up from behind!  I love my wonder dogs!

 ;D... put me down for two pups.

   :laugh: :laugh:
I'd never take them dogs hunting again. I'd cut thier hair , give them a bath and send them to work..

Around here walking in close enough to see a bay is not even a thought. If you got that close you might as well be ready to piggy back the hog because you would be right on top of him.  Every now and then you will get lucky and get to see a bay..

 :o If they are efficient in Microsoft Office programming (primarily Word and Excel) I want to hire them right now!!!!

Sorry guys, they have a full load of work right now.  Cleaning kennels, watering, feeding, etc...  Earning their keep ;D ;D