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Title: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Circle C on August 02, 2010, 08:42:05 am This crossed my mind the other day...
Let's say I am out hunting on some property that I own, or lease, and someone steals my dogs. I happen to catch them in the act of loading them up. Can I shoot them and cite the Castle Doctrine? For discussions sake, let's say they are unarmed, except for a hunting knife on their side. It is dark outside. I have told them that the dogs belong to me, yet they continue to load them up, and make an attempt to leave with my stolen dogs... Are my dogs "property", I feel certain that if they were stealing a saddle, I could shoot them, but what about a dog? Change this scenario to witnessing someone stealing dogs from your kennel, at your residence? Can you shoot them then? Quote Texas Castle Doctrine or Texas Castle Bill or Texas Castle Law Below is a copy of the Texas Castle Doctrine also known as Texas Castle Law or as Texas Castle Bill ______________________________________ AN ACT relating to the use of force or deadly force in defense of a person. BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS: SECTION 1. Section 9.01, Penal Code, is amended by adding Subdivisions (4) and (5) to read as follows: (4) “Habitation” has the meaning assigned by Section 30.01. (5) “Vehicle” has the meaning assigned by Section 30.01. SECTION 2. Section 9.31, Penal Code, is amended by amending Subsection (a) and adding Subsections (e) and (f) to read as follows: (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor [he] reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor [himself] against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor’s belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor: (1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used: (A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; (B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor’s habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or (C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery; (2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and (3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used. (e) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before using force as described by this section. (f) For purposes of Subsection (a), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (e) reasonably believed that the use of force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat. SECTION 3. Section 9.32, Penal Code, is amended to read as follows: Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another: (1) if the actor [he] would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and (2) [if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have retreated; and [(3)] when and to the degree the actor [he] reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: (A) to protect the actor [himself] against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or (B) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery. (b) The actor’s belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor: (1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used: (A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; (B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor’s habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or (C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B); (2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and (3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used [requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the time of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the actor]. (c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section. (d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat. SECTION 4. Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, is amended to read as follows: Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY [AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE]. A [It is an affirmative defense to a civil action for damages for personal injury or death that the] defendant who uses force or[, at the time the cause of action arose, was justified in using] deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9 [Section 9.32], Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s [against a person who at the time of the] use of force or deadly force, as applicable [was committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the defendant]. SECTION 5. (a) Sections 9.31 and 9.32, Penal Code, as amended by this Act, apply only to an offense committed on or after the effective date of this Act. An offense committed before the effective date of this Act is covered by the law in effect when the offense was committed, and the former law is continued in effect for this purpose. For the purposes of this subsection, an offense is committed before the effective date of this Act if any element of the offense occurs before the effective date. (b) Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, as amended by this Act, applies only to a cause of action that accrues on or after the effective date of this Act. An action that accrued before the effective date of this Act is governed by the law in effect at the time the action accrued, and that law is continued in effect for that purpose. SECTION 6. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007. Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Miller Lite on August 02, 2010, 09:04:42 am Sir i come from a military family and thats when i was told to put two in the chest in one in the head its worse to shoot someone and not kill them these days as it is to kill them i've heard my grandpa talk about cases where people got caught breaking into someones house gettin shot then sueing them i personally think that is just ridiculous and im with you 100% shoot em i can't stand a theif they are like snaked to me only good one is a dead one
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Rockin-P-Ranch on August 02, 2010, 09:11:26 am Dead men tell no lies
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Rockin-P-Ranch on August 02, 2010, 09:37:38 am I have been sitting here thinking about what you have just posted Chris, and I feel it all comes down to this. Is a dog,saddle,horse,or big screne tv worth a persons life.Not only that but can YOU live with the thought of taking a life for any material thing. I know that the law gives use the wright to protect what is ours.But stop and think if you can live with what you have done.Now please dont think of me as a person that would not protect and keep what is mine because believe me I will. And protecting your life and your family is somthing completly different.All Im saying is be prepared to deal with the thought of it.
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Circle C on August 02, 2010, 09:43:51 am Mr P.
My question has more to do with, is a dog "property" that can be protected citing the castle doctrine. With regards to dealing with the consequences of taking a life. I hope I never have to deal with that, but if the time comes that I fear for my life, and I am armed. You can bet I will soon know what it feels like to take a life. I don't know the answer to if a saddle or dog is worth a persons life, but I would like to know if there is any legal backing, should the situation ever arise. As I sit here typing this, there is a loaded lever gun about 6 feet from me, and a loaded pistol less than 2 feet from me. Additionally, each vehicle has a loaded gun, as does my Mule, my house, and my barn. BTW, I also have a fire extinguisher in each vehicle, house, barn, and office Call it being prepared.... ;D Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: DangerZone on August 02, 2010, 10:01:51 am Hey circle I ask your ? to a former law officer and now constable freind of mine for a long time now. and he said that castle only portect you from prosecution from the thief or his family. the interpetation of porperty would be up to the judge more than likely, there fore pretty much in the state of texas the only way your NOT gonna get prosecuted for shooting someone is for you or your family's live to be in danger. he has allways said if something like that happens, be the victme, be remorsefull ,and be sick, say's even seasoned officers sometimes get ill after a shooting. and none of that-- sob deserved it, or i'd doit again.
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Derek on August 02, 2010, 10:13:31 am What if you kill him and the court decides you're wrong?
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: USHOG on August 02, 2010, 10:21:39 am then you go to jail
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Circle C on August 02, 2010, 10:28:48 am Quote a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor [he] reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor [himself] against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor’s belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor: (1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used: (A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; (B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor’s habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or (C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery; The bold print is what I think applies here. If I catch someone stealing from my home, I can shoot, and be protected from criminal and civil prosecution. Same as in my vehicle, or place of business. Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Circle C on August 02, 2010, 10:30:25 am After additional reading, I don't think Castle doctrine would apply to protecting your property on a hunting lease for example.
I still wonder if a dog is property, as applies to Castle doctrine. ??? Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Bump on August 02, 2010, 10:33:21 am Fill them full of holes. My dogs life is worth more than a thiefs. Guess I may be different than some people....but just like dogs....some individuals need to be culled as well.
Everyone is different. If you can handle the thought of taking the life.....think that depends on the person. It wouldnt bother me. I think this all depends on the situation and how the law enforcement see the situation. I would make sure the guy had some sort of weapon lieing next tim him though. ;) Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: charles on August 02, 2010, 10:43:50 am i hav pondered the same ? that u r askn C. since i dont hav a child that lives with me, i think of my dogs as my children but wondern if the law would see it the same way. i wouldnt hesitate agin to shoot some1, let along stealn somethin that i hold dear to myself. u could always plant a throw down knife and claim self defence, as lnog as there is only 1 side to the story and that be,u the shooter.
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: DangerZone on August 02, 2010, 10:58:11 am it's the ( with force )= gun,knife,crowbar.bat,ect... he's armed and your if fear for your life if you donot let him do any of line (c) or else... real life example --he knocks on the door ,you answer, he pushes his way in yall fight, he runs out and you tell the wife to call the law, you run after him with a bat, you catch him half way out the driveway and knock him on the head, police come take you both to jail,. both get aggivated assult because when he fled you went after him,..and became the aggesore....had a freind in just this situation with his wifes stepdad. the police were appoligising to him while they were cuffing him saying ( if you would have just stayed in the house and called us got your gun and protected you family )
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: dub on August 02, 2010, 11:13:13 am It is simple you can use deadly force when you are in fear of your or someone else's life. But there is no way to know what you thinking. So would a reasonable person in the same situation be in fear of their life? It is a very long discussion but only use deadly force if you really are in fear of your life and then protect innocent life.
But you can detain a person for law enforcement. You can use force necessary to detain them. That does not include deadly force! But you can flip em and hog tie em. I detained one individual and law enforcement took their time giving him any attention or putting him in a comfortable back seat. They thought it was really funny. But do not get yourself in trouble. You can be rough after all you have not been trained and do not have handcuffs. I was very inventive but effective. Oops did I break his nose? Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Maver!ck on August 02, 2010, 11:21:15 am ....some individuals need to be culled as well. now that is just funny right there! I'm with you Chris, it would be interesting to know how they would interpret 'property'. Another angle to look at it, if they did interpret your dog as 'property' then how does that play out in all the other laws regarding your pets? something to ponder. Once they classify it as one thing, it could affect so many other laws that contradict how a pet is classified, as livestock? as means of income? and so on. Now as to how i'd handle it, i would fire a couple of warning shots, most likely, unless they were just plain ignorant, they wouldn't continue loading up my dogs, if they were, i'd start taking out tires lol, then if they were dumb enough to fire back, i wouldn't be warning anything with the next shots ;) it would fall under that self defense one ;D Maver!ck Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Monteria on August 02, 2010, 11:31:58 am It is important to note that the Castle Doctrine provides a defense to prosecution, not a guarantee of autonomy. It may provide the protections required to secure a no-bill decision at grand jury, or it may result in indictment, depending upon the circumstance. If an indictment were handed down, the doctrines interpretation by a judge or jury may or may not provide for successful defense.
Property is any physical or intangible entity that is owned by a person or jointly by a group of persons. The doctrine gives no consideration to the value of property being protected, that I am aware of, so lets look at the individual scenarios that you gave. 1) I think that there are far too many variables and circumstances to expect a no-bill based only upon the rights provided by the doctrine. That being said, and assuming that malice intent were not a factor, I would assume it to provide you with a stable defense in court. 2) The dogs are not only your property, but also on your homestead. I would like to think that in such a scenario, the doctrine would provide strong enough protection from prosecution to guarantee a no-bill from Grand Jury. The type of property being threatened or stolen should be of no bearing on the facts of the case, or interpretation of the law. Steve Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Derek on August 02, 2010, 11:32:57 am Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: sgt.davis on August 02, 2010, 11:35:51 am Before you can shoot someone your life has to be in danger and they have to have 3 things. Intent,ability and action. As much as I agree with shooting any kind of thief ecspecialy a dog thief. I dont think a judge would see it the same way we see it. I think a good country ass whoopn would make a good statement and I think it would be a lot easier to justify. 8)
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Monteria on August 02, 2010, 12:08:24 pm Before you can shoot someone your life has to be in danger and they have to have 3 things. Intent,ability and action. As much as I agree with shooting any kind of thief ecspecialy a dog thief. I dont think a judge would see it the same way we see it. I think a good country ass whoopn would make a good statement and I think it would be a lot easier to justify. 8) I am sure that this could be easily confused if you are not in Texas. But if you are in Texas, you should read and familiarize yourself with the Castle Doctrine. Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: sgt.davis on August 02, 2010, 12:13:59 pm Ya im in Oklahoma.I forgot yalls laws are different.
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: catchrcall on August 02, 2010, 12:31:33 pm For the guy stealing on my lease, I probably wouldn't have to shoot him. i could just shoot his truck and my dogs would scatter like roaches when the light comes on. Ever since a dove hunter peppered my kennels last season they are gunshy as heck. But seriously, if he's anywhere near that cab, or it's dark and I can't clearly see what he's got or what he's doing then he had better get real compliant real quick. guys standing by cars not listening and me not knowing what's in there makes my agent orange act up.
For the guy stealing from my kennels, I'll tell him this. I have seven dogs. Six are friendly, one is extremely touchy about strangers in his kennel, and it's not a warning type of dog. I know which one it is. You may figure it out if you choose. i will come down and pick up what's left at my leisure. I would say that here I have viable concern for mine and my family's safety, and if that dog don't have hold of the thief, he's gonna get shot. Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: james.frankovich on August 02, 2010, 01:10:01 pm Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: rdjustham on August 02, 2010, 01:14:35 pm Im not from texas and have never been there, but FL was a castle state util recently. What that meant at the time is you did not have to retreat from your home when force was used against you. Now if your in a parking lot and in fear you can use force to protect yourself and others. In Fl This still DOES NOT mean you can use deadly force to protect property. As it relates to the Dog question a Police K-9 handler can NOT use deadly force to protect his K-9 partner.
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: aladatrot on August 02, 2010, 01:58:37 pm I need to find the case that supports it (recently decided court case in Texas), but a dog was not only found to be a person's property, but also to have intrinsic value.
Last year, I had a lengthy conversation with my State Senator about this very subject. I walked away from the conversation with the understanding that his interpretation of the law allows for the use of deadly force anytime you feel that your life or safety is in danger. The illustration used was that if someone is in my barn taking something, I walked out onto my back deck, and he turned to face me at which time I thought I saw a weapon, I am within my rights to shoot. His rationale was that when the perp turned toward me, I thought he had a weapon, and could have been about to shoot me. I was defending my person and my home. The last time I thought I had an intruder I went out in pursuit with an unloaded bb gun. I still maintain that the first time I ever shoot my revolver will be the day I find out what it's like to shoot a person. If I ever have the occasion or desire to shoot it, then my life must be in danger and I will shoot to kill. I keep it in the truck within easy reach, but I have a personal dislike of hand guns. I hope I never have to use it. Cheers M Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: cantexduck on August 02, 2010, 03:14:00 pm I will not take a life to stop someone from stealing one of my dogs. Not worth it in my mind. But I couldnt shoot an un armed person if they were taking off with my dog. Couldnt shoot someone for breaking into my truck. If the person is tring to come into my home, then we will have gun shots.
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Miller Lite on August 02, 2010, 03:30:31 pm I will not take a life to stop someone from stealing one of my dogs. Not worth it in my mind. But I couldnt shoot an un armed person if they were taking off with my dog. Couldnt shoot someone for breaking into my truck. If the person is tring to come into my home, then we will have gun shots. Lol You wasn't raised in south east texas haha damn near every gate in my neighborhood has the "trespassers will be shot surviours will be shot again" and we dont dial 911 we reload our 12 gauge i live in a pretty decent neighborhood so the theifs and meth heads from across the tracks come to our neighborhood and steal out stuff hell i was changeing my bearings on my truck left my tires off over night in my own yard come home the punks stole two rims and tires a fishin pole a chain saw and a pair of lacross rubber boots ... anyone messes around in my yard i gotta 2 3/4 slug that says they WILL lose a leg if they are lucky Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: cantexduck on August 02, 2010, 03:57:21 pm Groves, Texas. Yeah that isnt SE Texas.
A fishing pole,rim or even a truck isnt worth a human life in my eyes no matter if it a meth head or not. Drugs make people do bad things. Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: djhogdogger on August 02, 2010, 04:06:28 pm Im not sure what i would do until the situation arises. I like to think that i would try to hold the person at gunpoint until the law arrived or maybe shoot their vehicle if they tried to leave. But I wouldn't shoot someone unless I felt that my life or the life of a family member was in danger. Because i would weigh it out in my head...is it worth spending the rest of my life in prison. Because depending on the judge and jury and what attourney you can afford, there can be many different outcomes. There are no deffinates in law. :-\
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Miller Lite on August 02, 2010, 04:07:29 pm Groves, Texas. Yeah that isnt SE Texas. A fishing pole,rim or even a truck isnt worth a human life in my eyes no matter if it a meth head or not. Drugs make people do bad things. We've had stuff stole out of our yard 6 times since we moved here since 97 .... we dont tolarate a theif ... your right drugs make people do bad things but if they are stupid enough to go in a marked yard with tresspassing signs all over it .. they are dumb enough to get shot they came on my front porch to steal my chain saw and everything they are very lucky just two of my rims and tires cost 1500 bucks a fishin pole was about 50 a chain saw was about 150 and my damn rubber boots were about 30 lol add that up and tell me you wouldn't blow a foot off a crackhead toatin your stuff off Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Rockin-P-Ranch on August 02, 2010, 04:16:02 pm If you have been there since 97 and know you have aproblem with that kind of thing,Why in the world would you leave things like that just laying around for someone to see and pick up????
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Miller Lite on August 02, 2010, 04:21:34 pm my house is 3 acres off the road and surrounded by woods i shouldn't have to worry about some punk toatin my stuff off where i come from if it isn't yours dont touch it and they had to come looking for my stuff its not like it was in plain sight for the whole world to see considering you can sit on my porch and can't see anyone on it from the road they stumbled across a jackpot and took it and i got burned thats why everyone in my neighborhood has come together this year and watches each others stuff hell i had a guy a mile down the road from me have his four wheeler stolen out of his garage with the door shut punks throw a brick through the window an opened the door and loaded his stuff up found the four wheeler about 5 miles away they rode the piss out of it and cut all the wires it was a brand new honda rancher thank god for insurance lol
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: warrent423 on August 02, 2010, 04:36:02 pm I consider my dogs to be my property, regardless of what any law may say.
You can steal anything you want, from anybody you want, just don't let me catch you stealin from me. Back home in Florida, dog thieves are drug from their vehicles, beat beyond recognition, and left for dead. If he is stupid enough to point a weapon, he is fired upon with the intent to kill. Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Miller Lite on August 02, 2010, 04:36:30 pm Just so yall know i did not mean and disrespect its just how i was raised i supposed i was raised by veterans so i guess i kinda think like them everyone has there own point of view and im not sayin i'd kill them but you best belive they may walk up here but they will be limpin off lol
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Miller Lite on August 02, 2010, 04:37:02 pm I consider my dogs to be my property, regardless of what any law may say. You can steal anything you want, from anybody you want, just don't let me catch you stealin from me. Back home in Florida, dog thieves are drug from their vehicles, beat beyond recognition, and left for dead. If he is stupid enough to point a weapon, he is fired upon with the intent to kill. x2 Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: grunterhunter8 on August 02, 2010, 04:47:22 pm Chris, yes your dogs are considered property. If this senario is at night time, you can use deadly force. If it is day time, I don't think you would be justified in using deadly force. I was taught (this is directly from my notes) that in Texas a person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect his property to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, theft during the nighttime or criminal mischief during the nighttime, and he reasonably believes that the property cannot be protected by any other means. Also, a person is justified in using deadly force against another to pervent the other who is fleeing after committing burglary, robbery, or theft during the nighttime, from escaping with the property and he reasonable believes that the property cannot be recovered by any other means; or, the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the property would expose him or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. (Nighttime is defined as the period 30 minutes after sunset until 30 minutes before sunrise.) I believe your scenario describes Theft and deadly force is only justifiable if said Theft occurs at nighttime. Now if they try to steal your dogs from kennels on your property, this might be considered Burglary, in which case you are able to use deadly force day or night. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Circle C on August 02, 2010, 04:51:31 pm Grunterhunter8,
Thanks, That is the type of info I was looking for. Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: BigAinaBuilt on August 02, 2010, 05:22:56 pm Shoot low! ;D
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: gottagettem on August 02, 2010, 07:30:31 pm if i raised the dog then its my property... and hes a dead man....i .do repos.....and talk to cops alot... they always say that if u shoot someone... u better have a good story to go with it.... and that is the only story to listen to...the other person... cant speak a word....and as long as u can prove its ur property... then the dead person WAS in the wrong.... but in the woods... they are going to have to find the body first....wink wink.....there is so much land in the country.... just know what u are doing... when u do it..... but a dog to me is like a kid.... i have to protect them and watch out for them to........one shoot one kill... closed casket for their family.. unless they want to see the hole in is face....
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Miller Lite on August 02, 2010, 07:37:11 pm if i raised the dog then its my property... and hes a dead man....i .do repos.....and talk to cops alot... they always say that if u shoot someone... u better have a good story to go with it.... and that is the only story to listen to...the other person... cant speak a word....and as long as u can prove its ur property... then the dead person WAS in the wrong.... but in the woods... they are going to have to find the body first....wink wink.....there is so much land in the country.... just know what u are doing... when u do it..... but a dog to me is like a kid.... i have to protect them and watch out for them to........one shoot one kill... closed casket for their family.. unless they want to see the hole in is face.... hehehehe great minds think alike but i'd still rather blow a foot off so they have to live with the fact that they tryed to steal like in india an stuff like that you steal you lose a hand you steal again we'll hang your a** capital punishment is not wrong in my eyes if you mess up enough screw sending them to prison then in the end your still paying for that person Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: MachinesOldLady on August 02, 2010, 08:03:49 pm If you're going to shoot someone and use the castle doctrine you'd better be sure to have good enough legal representation to prove your case. The guy that shot the thieves that were robbing his neighbor had a huge fiscal drain. You can actually pay yearly for an "insurance" type policy that helps you out in any firearms case, but outside of that you'd better be ready to pay alot in legal fees to prove you were within your rights to shoot and kill a person (Edit:over property alone).
At least that's what we were told in our concealed carry class. I can replace a lawn mower, but I can't replace one of my dogs. I don't think you could legally shoot someone stealing one of your dogs unless it was on your property or out of your car. That doesn't mean you couldn't prosecute them successfully for stealing your dog, only that deadly force is not legally permissible in those cases other than what's covered by the castle doctrine. That said, aim for the mo-fo's car. Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Miller Lite on August 02, 2010, 08:06:23 pm hehe or get you a handy dandy boar spear and jump out the bushes like a wild banchee and see if they dont shyt thereself ...
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Circle C on August 02, 2010, 08:12:54 pm I think Joe Horns case was unique. He was protecting his neighbors property, not his own.
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: dub on August 02, 2010, 08:55:18 pm Castle doctrine only applies to the duty to retreat. You may not like what the guy from Oklahoma said but he is right. That is the basic legal guideline. You are not judge jury and executioner as much as I think it should be allowed. Because before in addition to what said about intent, means, and action they would sat you could have retreated to avoid deadly force. The castle doctrine says you have no duty to retreat in your home. It is basic 1L stuff. If you do not know what 1L is then do even think about arguing any legal matter. The whole thing in Texas is a reasonable person would have been in fear for their life and that is a matter for a jury to decide! Do you know what a criminal defense lawyer would charge to defend you? So even if you do not get convicted you will be broke and in debt. So if the D.A. would not shoot you better not shoot!
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: MachinesOldLady on August 02, 2010, 09:03:42 pm I think Joe Horns case was unique. He was protecting his neighbors property, not his own. Yes, but the castle law protects your neighbors property too. If I asked you to keep an eye on my dogs while I was gone and you saw someone stealing one out of my yard you would be within the castle law to shoot them. My point was though that when it's just property that's involved that you'll have a harder time proving your need for deadly force than when you are physically threatened. If you're going to go that route you should be prepared financially. Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: RockinW on August 02, 2010, 09:40:33 pm aint it a shame that we have to worry about the legalities of protecting ourselves and what we've worked for ? whats "right" and whats "legal" often dont have anything to do with each other.
it's my opinion that i'm not the one who should wonder if a dog, saddle, fishin pole, etc. is worth a life... that is a question the thief better ask himself Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: slimpickins on August 02, 2010, 10:17:50 pm Dub, the "duty to retreat" portion was removed 2 or 3 years ago, as it pertains to the Castles Doctrine.
If in your home, car, etc. you don't, WON'T, for many of us, have to show retreat. I'll support this with facts when I get to my PC in the morning. Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Miller Lite on August 02, 2010, 10:57:49 pm aint it a shame that we have to worry about the legalities of protecting ourselves and what we've worked for ? whats "right" and whats "legal" often dont have anything to do with each other. it's my opinion that i'm not the one who should wonder if a dog, saddle, fishin pole, etc. is worth a life... that is a question the thief better ask himself that aint no shyt i agree with you 100% Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: huntermand02 on August 02, 2010, 11:35:59 pm When I got my CHL the instructor ( was joking ) but he told me the guy seid he was going to kill me and I believed him!!
but as far as some one loading dogs and I was armed call the cops and shoot a tire or two it will take them a while to change it and there on your property so all is fair game I dont care if there a theif or not it would be dificult to live with takeing a persons life that did not try to take mine of someone elses Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: rdjustham on August 03, 2010, 06:53:43 am Just wanted to say it again, since Fl removed the "must retreat" from it self defense laws, i hear all the time "ill just shoot them". YOU CAN ONLY TAKE A LIFE IF YOURS IS IN IMMINATE DANGER. What you guys need to "memorize" is "SIR I THOUGHT I WAS IN IMMINATE DANGER OF DEATH OR GREAT BODILY HARM!!!!" not, that SOB was stealing my dogs. No state in this country (even texas) sorry, is going to allow you to kill a person for a dog, tv, truck rims etc. and i wouldnt want to be the one who ever tries it out over stuff in the yard.
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: dub on August 03, 2010, 11:35:30 pm Dub, the "duty to retreat" portion was removed 2 or 3 years ago, as it pertains to the Castles Doctrine. That is what I was saying. No duty to retreat. But there must be a threat to life for self defense as any "reasonable person" would see it. If you believe lasers were going to shoot out of his eyes, not reasonable. But any little pansy can sit in a courtroom and say you could have retreated. That was just too stupid. So they removed the duty to retreat. But shooting a thief is limited and a fuzzy line I would stay away from.If in your home, car, etc. you don't, WON'T, for many of us, have to show retreat. I'll support this with facts when I get to my PC in the morning. But if they get lost in the woods rolleyes Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: hogdoggerdude14 on August 04, 2010, 06:10:32 pm i knew sum 1 would bring up the castel laws
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: TX HOG on August 04, 2010, 06:25:25 pm i wouldnt be asking anyone on here if i had the right to shoot someone. id ask a judge, lawyer, or da...... the people that will decide your fate after you pull the trigger
Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Miller Lite on August 04, 2010, 06:26:24 pm i wouldnt be asking anyone on here if i had the right to shoot someone. id ask a judge, lawyer, or da...... the people that will decide your fate after you pull the trigger Dont pull it ... squeeze it Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: rdjustham on August 04, 2010, 06:39:43 pm i wouldnt be asking anyone on here if i had the right to shoot someone. id ask a judge, lawyer, or da...... the people that will decide your fate after you pull the trigger How bout the guy that puts the cuffs on you?? id ask them first, we have to be as up to speed if not more than lawyers, They get to look for case law for loop holes not the black and white of it. And if it does happen i GUARANTEE those responding WILL be pointing guns at you. And god forbid its a jumpy rookie Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Monteria on August 04, 2010, 08:11:38 pm Just wanted to say it again, since Fl removed the "must retreat" from it self defense laws, i hear all the time "ill just shoot them". YOU CAN ONLY TAKE A LIFE IF YOURS IS IN IMMINATE DANGER. What you guys need to "memorize" is "SIR I THOUGHT I WAS IN IMMINATE DANGER OF DEATH OR GREAT BODILY HARM!!!!" not, that SOB was stealing my dogs. No state in this country (even texas) sorry, is going to allow you to kill a person for a dog, tv, truck rims etc. and i wouldnt want to be the one who ever tries it out over stuff in the yard. Just to stir the pot....... Precedent says otherwise...... Google Joe Horn. Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: rdjustham on August 04, 2010, 08:14:05 pm Just wanted to say it again, since Fl removed the "must retreat" from it self defense laws, i hear all the time "ill just shoot them". YOU CAN ONLY TAKE A LIFE IF YOURS IS IN IMMINATE DANGER. What you guys need to "memorize" is "SIR I THOUGHT I WAS IN IMMINATE DANGER OF DEATH OR GREAT BODILY HARM!!!!" not, that SOB was stealing my dogs. No state in this country (even texas) sorry, is going to allow you to kill a person for a dog, tv, truck rims etc. and i wouldnt want to be the one who ever tries it out over stuff in the yard. Just to stir the pot....... Precedent says otherwise...... Google Joe Horn. Last thing ill say on the subject, Good Luck Title: Re: Shooting a dog thief? Post by: Purebreedcolt on August 04, 2010, 08:17:10 pm In the woods no I would not shoot them but would pepper their vehicle low or hi to miss the dogs but at my home the only way they would leave is in a body bag
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