EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I know this goes in the dog doctor section but I am needing a large number of opinions and this is the place to go to get eyes on the subject.

I have a pup that was born on May 6th that has me puzzled.  When they were 2-3 weeks old they whole litter had a bout with Coccidiosis and I hit them with albon and it cleared right up.  About 9 weeks of age I had gotten rid of all the pups but her and her sister and she started having a loose stool and losing a little weight.  I hit her with albon again but nothing.  After a few days I carried her to the vet and they ran a battery test and the only thing that showed was Coccidosis and they told me to continue albon for 14 days.  I did that and the whole time she has not made a turd.  I have fed her raw meat which she loves and continue to do so.  She has a good appetite, drinks water well and has energy ad the desire to go like I really wan to see in a pup but she looks like hell to put it mildly!  She will be 13 weeks old on thursday and I am at a loss.  I love the pup and how she acts but I don't know what to do for her and I cant help but think this is going to lead to something else she wont be able to shake and death.  Anyone ever dealt with this or something similar? 

She is the red pup...
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f277/matt_aggie04/76e6cee9.jpg)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f277/matt_aggie04/b2f4cb91.jpg)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f277/matt_aggie04/b6f6bce8.jpg)

What and how long ago did  you worm her with?  Have you given her yogurt for a week straight?

I have wormed her every two weeks since birth and sometimes more frequently than that.  I have used Strongid T and Safe Guard.  She also tested negative for any worms when I took her to the vet.

 as cutter bay said, i was gonna ask the same thing. not insulting ur intelegance, but r u sure she has'nt pooed yet? she may be eatin it, i hav a common name calld to dogs, a turd hound b/c he will 8 out of 10 times eat his own poo but i know he has pooed and have watch him lay it on the ground and turn around and eat it. i would like to know how to stop him from doin it.

She would need a straw.....I have all my dogs off the ground on wood and her stool like about like chicken broth.  I am not talking about yogart type loose stool I mean very very watery.  When she goes number 2 it looks like your pushing water out a syringe.  I am going to get some probiotic today to put on her food as well but I was hoping the raw hamburger meat would have enough bacteria in it to get things working again but no such luck.  

matt has it had any blood in it

Matt when you get tired of her just send that scawny thing to me, I might not can fix her but I think if she does make it through she will be a tough little girl with all the right tools to be a realdeal hog dog.

No sir, I paid an extra 40 dollar to have her checked for parvo too and it was clear.  She has also had two rounds of shots by now.  My vet has even suggested taking some stool samples and sending them to A&M because she really doesn't have an answer either.  If she was down and not real active I would have already put her down, that is how bad she looks.  I just don't have the heart to quite on her since she is so acitve and full of energy.

I have also tried to give her immodium with no success and I feed her free choice dog food and a pound of hamburger meat a day, she would eat two pounds I think if I gave it to her haha.  I may have the only dog with IBS haha

Maybe she built up an immunity to the Albon and it's not working... take her to Doc Merry. ;)

This is whatI would do to the puppy.  First I would take her off the raw meat that sometimes leads to lose stool.  Then i would start feeding her a dog food that is high in fat like 15 or 20 percent maybe even a little more than that.  Start feeding her a pound or two a day.  If she gets the squirts again try spectam scour hault for pigs on her or even the clear injectable.   

It sounds like you have done all the usual things to cure most problems with pups. I would feed her as much as she wanted to eat every day and if she doesn't put on some weight in a few days I would try getting a second vets opinion..

x2 If she makes it she will be a very robust dog!

Matt, I think Cutter Bay is on to something with the yogurt! I have had a whole litter of pups with the same issue and nothing would help. I had already figured they would all die because the vet visit had me completely discouraged.
I had a lady that has run a dog rescue for over 25 years tell me to feed them plain yogurt for a week. All she said was that it usually straightens there tummies out. I thought “what the heck” and tried it. It worked like a dream! Within two weeks they were completely healthy and back to a normal weight. I feed it to all of my pups when they scour up or cant put on weight and it always works.
I am not sure why or how it works but the live cultures in the yogurt seem to kick start the good bacteria of a dogs digestive tract.
The pup that was worse off than the others ended up being the biggest and the best of the whole litter and one of my best all time dogs.

It’s worth a try anyway. ???

I went by the vet and got some probiotic powder and I remebred I had some frozen George Forman grled chicken in the freezer. I came by and fed her a chicken breast and a daily dose of that powder so we will see if that helps. I am going to get some plain yogurt as well since from what I understand you can't give too much good bacteria. I really think it has to have something to do with her digestive tract. 

Matt,  the Ninja's words are good advise on yogurt. I should add though, it will make her ears low set, as well as make her open on track.

Oh heck, the last part was a lie. Good luck with her. I'd call her nails. She'll be tough as one if she makes it.

Matt I agree with with the yogurt. Somthing is going on with the digesting of food so the bacteria in the yogurt should help this. We will send a bill at a later date.LOL

I was going to ask about Parvo too. I have seen it show positive on a coccidia test..... Or maybe that was the other way around, but I don't think so.

Could it be a negative reaction to the parvo boosters? They are a modified live virus (I think) which, I would assume, could have taken hold of a poor immune system weakened by coccidiosis and show a false negative.

That is thinking WAY outside the box, but I agree that yogurt would be worth a shot. Maybe all she needs is a little digestion help to counteract the result of coccidiosis.

I have read more than I care to about Coccidosis as a result of this pup and everything I have come across says that after two weeks of albon the good bacteria is all but gone in a pups digestive tract.  For some reason when she had this second flare up it has just been twice as bad but I can see if there was a compounding effect of the Coccs and the lack of bacteria where she has gotten this poor.  I think the next week of chicken and yogurt and powder will tell me it is something I can fix.

  Give the pup panacure or valbazen for five days. Make the dose a little smaller than what you would worm with. Mix some butter milk with the yogert and mix it with her feed, all she will eat of it. I've had this clear up some very sick pups that were doing the same as yours.

Matt,

Had the same problem with some pups a while back.  I gave them clavamox and an anti-diareha medicine( your vet will know the name).  Took them off of the high protein diet and gave them beef flavored canned food mixed with regular puppy chow and it was cleared up completely in 72 hours and noticed a difference in the stool within first 24.  They also were checked for parvo, coxcidia, etc. and came up negative.  Gave them that anti-diareha medicine three times a day and antibiotic twice a day.

Joey

From what I've read about the effects of large doses of anti-biotics on dogs.....I'd say that she has some sort of systemic yeast infection. I've never feed raw meat,.....it may be the trick, however it seems that it might be hard to digest for a young dog with a gut that isn't working properly. If you are in favor of feeding some sort of dog food, I'd suggest a high quality puppy food and the yogart or some sort of probiotic as previously suggested......as for what probiotic....I take Align, get it at Walmart....it's been a life saver for me.....smoothed out my old gut like a charm. Good luck whatever you choose.

I use Probios for cattle or horses, it is like the gel version of yogurt and alot less of a mess.  They also have probiotic pills in the pharmacy section called Lactobacillius that are good too.

I had this same issue with our litter from Christmas, I put them on Albon with no success so I wormed them every other day with Valbazen/Ivomec and put them on a new dog food (4Health Puppy) .... then I put them back on Albon (generic mix your own) for 14 days and they FINALLY came out of it, I was on the verge of throwing in the towel because they looked terrible and smelled awful but when they came out of it they shot up like little weeds but I think they might be a little stunted from the Coccidia.

I do not give Parvo shots anymore as I have seen some react to it and still get Parvo so I just quarantine them until they are 16 - 18 weeks old in the big puppy pen.  I think we may have given them one set of shots at the husband's insistance and if I am not mistaken that is when all the issues started so I am not sure that they didnt get a weakened immune system from the shots and then maybe picked Coccidia up instead ???

Best of Luck with her!

The probiotic I got was a Purina brand formulated for dogs but I am gonna give it in the morning and the yogurt in the evening. 

I had a problem litter a few years back my dane had a litter of 14 she developed mastitus in one breast and apparently only 4 of the pups fed off it. all four were screwed up real bad and died after i tried everything under the sun. the vets all blamed it on the mastitus. ya might check your gyps teets for any hard knots. just a thought. hopefully its not that. good luck with her.

i am having some issues and was looking through the dog doctor forum and stumbled on this thread that i commented on and was just wondering what happened with your pup matt...?? i have a pup that is pooping through a screen door

Matt's on vacation... it may be a while before he sees this.

 I havent read thru all of the replys so someone else may have already suggested this but have you thought of giardia? Its very hard to detect usless it is in the right cycle.  I read where Panacur is the only treatment that works.

 Introduction to Giardia Protozoa
If I had a dime for every email I received about reoccurring loose stools or constant diarrhea, I'd be able to buy a winery in the south of France. It is a frustrating situation for small dog owners, so you can imagine a giant breed with loose stools is no fun at all!

Honestly, after skin issues, diarrhea seems to be the next biggest challenge for pet owners. It is especially so for those who have adopted a rescue dog, or purchased a dog from a "less than desirable" kennel situation or pet shop, or purchased a dog that has been under great stress before coming to your home.

If it is a young puppy, Coccidia is often the problem and easy to find in a fecal test then treat with Albon. Coccidia stools have a very distinct sour smell to them. In older puppies and adults Giardia Protozoa is often the culprit, and it is next to IMPOSSIBLE TO DETECT because you have to catch it just at the right cyst cycle, or it is not evident there is a Giardia problem.

If it were me I would simply forget the testing and worm with Panacur wormer (info below). Nothing else works for Giardia, and Metronidazole and Flagyl only stops it for a short time, then it returns. Plus dogs that have the potential for the MDR1 mutation gene (Collies, Shelties, Aussies, etc. with the merle gene should not be given Metronidazole or Flagyl).

Dogs with access to lakes, ponds, standing water are more prone to getting Giardia but if you have a problem with more than one dog and you have a well, I would certainly have your water tested for it. Giardia is now a relatively normal organism in the digestive tract and when under stress it becomes problematic.


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Before you do you worm with Panacur for Giardia, also need to investigate the possibility of another organism called Clostridium difficile - detailed info in this article - Seasonal Diarrhea.


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Giardia Protozoa is next to impossible to find in a stool check. For some dogs loose stools are due to over feeding the dog, try cutting back a little for a couple of days and see if that makes a difference. For some it is a digestive sensitivity so a change to a better brand of dog food ,this could take care of the problem and adding a good probiotic daily, even if it is on the food already can make a big difference.

When your dog is on an antibiotic, understress or being wormed. It is very important to use a combination probiotic product that has some beneficial bacteria in it that are microencapsulated so they release down into the lower digestive tract.

After all this has been tried and it still continues...then it is time to worm with Panacur. Most dogs with a loose stools end up being treated repeatedly with Flagyll or Metronidazole, but is only temporary, it just does not work and the dog should not be left on an antibiotic for a long period of time, this is not the best choice for the dog as it destroys the beneficial bacteria of the gut and compromises the immune system. Long term antibiotic use also leads to systemic (whole system) yeast/fungal problems.

It is a very frustrating problem for both vets and owners. Giardia is a problem to young dogs due to the stress their body's are under during those first few months of development. Giardia is an enormous problem with rescue dogs because they have been neglected and compromised on many levels before they get into a foster situation.

I can NOT emphasize enough that giardia tests rarely find this parasite, because the cyst cycle of this organism it is next to impossible to find. I tell my puppy buyers to forget the testing and just go ahead and worm with Panacur under the guidence of their vet. Right now, it is the only thing working with success, but it has to be used twice.

Worm for a 4-5 day cycle - mix in their food, then worm again in another 11-13 days and they MUST be on a probiotic at the same time. Yogurt will not do it. It is not powerful enough to reseed the gut. Your vet will give you instructions on worming according to weight etc. Giardia has become such a big problem in this country, that I was asked to develop a support feed program to get the giardia dog back on track.

I copied  and pasted this.
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Here's a home remedy to help stop loose stools. Mix canned pumpkin in with pups food. Use the creamed pumpkin that dont have all the sugar and stuff in it. Usually helps
Also, i had something happen to a litter just like this. They were climbing out of the 10' tall whelping box at 3 weeks old and eating momma's poo. Started getting coccidia symptoms, treated them with albon, no help. Wound up they had a bactererial enteritis, a stomach infection from eating momma's poo. Put em on cimetiedine  cocktail to ease stomach symptoms, and metropanizole for the infection and cleared it right up. Dont know if this applys to your situation, but give the pumpkin a try and see if it helps

after your done with the medicine, I would quit feeding raw and quit giving any medicine.
Just let her eat as much dry puppy food as she wants.
Do that for a week and see what happens.
Some pups dont take well to the raw meat especially if she already had some digestive issues.
Let the medicine and raw food clear from her system.

Matt's pup is still making it, she is growing, still has watery stool but growing and eating, although her eating habits are extremely picky. She has no desire to eat dry dog food, and she will shrivel up before she eats it. However Some brands of canned food and raw she will eat with enthusiasm.  $10 bags of Waggin Train chicken jerky is her favorite, macraoni & Cheese, raw chicken, hamburger, mighty dog country chicken bacon & egg, and Raw Eggs, won't touch a cooked egg
Way more brands that she won't eat such as Lamb & Rice, To say the least she is a very finicky eater.
The good news is that she is easting and growing, although you can still see her ribs, she has even started getting her adult teeth and she is very active and playful, not dehydrated at all and has even bayed the hogs a couple of times. Its gonna be tough to get her back on regular dog food, but right now she will eat three chicken quarters a day so until her own immunity kicks in she can whatever she wants

That is real good to hear!!  Sounds like you are taking GOOD care of her.

I have a Brittany that went thru the same thing . A friend that studies all things dog told me he had some type of worms. I looked back but couldn't find which, but think it was whips.

Anyway She told me to dose him with the goat Safeguard 5 days running. I did and he cleared right up. I'll get with her and verify the worms.

Update - as of Yesterday the yella pup started getting sick again, would not eat. Today went back to the vet.

The vet found that due to the chronic illness that she had developed Intussception basicallyy in a nut shell the intestine had gone bad and turning on iteself. Only cure at this point was surgery which the quote he gave me was way riduculous, I have another vet that would have been half the price but he was out of town untill Monday. The end result is that the puppy was euthanized to prevent any more suffereing.

I am pretty upset to let her go, it does not take long to get attached to one that has the will & heart to keep on fighting for its life and keep up a great energetic attitude and still bay pigs when its dying from the inside out. RIP Lou-Weeze

aww RIP Lou-Weeze. She would have been a good one.

man i feel bad for bringin the thread back up. sorry for the loss.

my pups just had the squirts from the weening process the vet charged me a butt load of cash to test for everything he could test for and they were negative on everything..... i wish i would have waited another day because the are pooping just fine now, i wanted to catch it early if something was wrong though.

hey mAN I  had that happen to me last year an old man told me to feed them pumpkin pie filling out of the can to make them put there wait back on an it will make them putt on wait pretty quick

Aw man! I was hoping she would make it. She sounds like she was worht the try.