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Title: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: hogdoggintn on September 02, 2010, 12:55:04 am I was reading in the "catch dog and culling..." topic, and it got me wondering, what is the longest that anyone has had a catch dog to hold a hog before?
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: jhy on September 02, 2010, 06:28:35 am My bulldog Catch has held a good boar (250+) for nearly an hour in the July heat until I got back with a gun. He took 52 pokes and never let go until that 350 carbine dropped the hog. Ideally they should hold until dead
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: bulldogger on September 02, 2010, 09:09:11 am Wondering why you didn't grab the hog up and get catchdog off. Was catchdog not able to stay secure and it was too risky to leg? Longest mine has stayed on one was about 15 minutes in which it took awhile for us to cross little lake and get there. Was only about a 175 pound barr. I prefer to let catchdogs go closer to bay so I we can get there quick to seal deal.
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: Bump on September 02, 2010, 09:21:02 am I dont know and dont want to find out. I prefer about 10 seconds.
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: djhogdogger on September 02, 2010, 09:26:03 am I've never timed it but like bulldogger stated, we try to get there as quickly as possible. How long can a catch dog hold is one of those questions i hope we never have to find out the answer to. Now one time it took us longer than usual to hack our way into a bad thicket to get to the hog after the cd caught and though he was still on the ear, he was really over heated and we almost lost him.
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: Cutter Bay Kennels on September 02, 2010, 09:31:08 am My bulldog Catch has held a good boar (250+) for nearly an hour in the July heat until I got back with a gun. He took 52 pokes and never let go until that 350 carbine dropped the hog. Ideally they should hold until dead What? Why? Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: roughdog on September 02, 2010, 09:35:08 am iv had my rcd be cought for an hour or more before i could get to them and they where fine just tired as hell but still catching when i got there on some big hogs not pigs they just kill them and go get another one lol
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: dub on September 02, 2010, 10:17:13 am In a perfect world I would expect em to hold till they are dead. But like I expect them to hold forever I believe the dog should expect me to bust my butt to get in there to get that hog.
Title: Re: Post by: BarrNinja on September 02, 2010, 10:54:04 am Sure is a lot of debate on CD's latetly.
"how long will a catch dog hold?" The short answer...........As long as it needs too! That being said, in my opinion, most of the time, "as long as it needs too" shouldnt be long at all. ;) Title: Re: Post by: t.wilbanks on September 02, 2010, 10:58:28 am most of the time, "as long as it needs too" shouldnt be long at all. ;) X2!!!! Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: cward on September 02, 2010, 11:19:10 am My bulldog Catch has held a good boar (250+) for nearly an hour in the July heat until I got back with a gun. He took 52 pokes and never let go until that 350 carbine dropped the hog. Ideally they should hold until dead What? Why? Because I was not there!!LOL J/k Nija hit the nail on the head!! Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: BIG CHRIS on September 02, 2010, 11:26:07 am Sure is a lot of debate on CD's latetly.
"how long will a catch dog hold?" The short answer...........As long as it needs too! That being said, in my opinion, most of the time, "as long as it needs too" shouldnt be long at all. x3 Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: DangerZone on September 02, 2010, 11:49:42 am I'm just asking??? But why would you need a CD if your gonna shoot it? I've only been Hoggin for a couple years now and haven't gotten a CD yet, I lost the first dogs I bought in a highway accident. But they were catahoula and would bay them up and we would shoot the hog at that time I felt I had no need for a CD. My young pack that's training right now I intend to be rougher and will have a CD but i don't intend to shoot over them?? I'm just asking is my thought process wrong here I'm not as expiranced as some of y'all at hogs and dogs ?????
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: BarrNinja on September 02, 2010, 01:33:08 pm I'm just asking??? But why would you need a CD if your gonna shoot it? I've only been Hoggin for a couple years now and haven't gotten a CD yet, I lost the first dogs I bought in a highway accident. But they were catahoula and would bay them up and we would shoot the hog at that time I felt I had no need for a CD. My young pack that's training right now I intend to be rougher and will have a CD but i don't intend to shoot over them?? I'm just asking is my thought process wrong here I'm not as expiranced as some of y'all at hogs and dogs ????? Its a fair question. We are all wondering Im sure. ??? Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: M Bennet on September 02, 2010, 04:14:35 pm HE SHOULD HOLD AND TIL HE DIES, IF HES GAMEMEE JUST REMBER THEY MAKE MORE
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: DangerZone on September 02, 2010, 04:19:09 pm I was just wondering why shoot a hog with a good catch dog locked on it? take out any margin of error and shoot it point blank and the dog is still gonna suffer from being so close to the muzzle.....step back and take aim ..BANG.. and dead catch dog.... I could be wrong, but it doesnt seem logical to me.... Even with a loose bay dog there's a chance of the dog getting shot .... and we all know how hard a really good dog can be to find. JMO :-\
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: Mike on September 02, 2010, 06:24:05 pm Let's try this again.
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: jhy on September 02, 2010, 06:59:21 pm Here is how the situation went down. I was hunting by myself one morning at my buddies farm because no one would get up to go with me. I got my buggy stuck in the creek so I began walking back to his house. I let the dogs down and took the cut vest off of my bulldog. All I had seen was small tracks in the area so I wasn't too worried. I didn't get far and my cur and jagd started baying in a briar thicket. I assumed it was a shoat so I sent my bulldog in. When I got there it was a 250+ boar. I legged him and tried to throw him but the briars wouldn't let him go over. I didn't have a knife so I tied his back leg to a sappling and had to run a mile back to the house, get a buggy and rifle. I hauled but back and shot the thing at point blank range. It was my mistake, but I did the best that I could do. It's not easy to throw a big hog like that in an east Texas wildcat thicket by yourself.
Joey Young Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: make-em-squeel on September 02, 2010, 07:06:56 pm I have had my dogo gyp hold for close to a half hour a few times (25min.), not real sure how long she would...in my opinion i would want her to let go before she heat stroked but hold til death from injury. I hope i never find out how long!! its never a good situation when one of my cd's hold for more than a few min.'s
Had 1 pit and was around one of my buddies pits that drown on a hog that drown...not a trait i thought was cool.... To the post above I think it is the exception to the rule and not hte norm... most cds could not hold an hour in july heat without dying in my opinion, probably in winter but again hope i dont ever know Hunted with a fella that worked his pits out by making them stay caught for a half hour once or twice a wk. That would be great exersize if i had the set up...poor hog Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: BIG BEN on September 02, 2010, 07:14:32 pm This is just my opinion 1) A catch dog should stay caught until its last breath 2) A catch dog should only be caught for a few seconds to a couple minutes before you get there 3) Its a dumb a$$ move sending a catch dog from over 50 yards to a bay.
All these types that will send a CD from 500 yards out are not very smart in my mind and dont give a crap about their dog, the dog shouldnt have to worry about self preservation thats our job and we owe that much to our dogs to help them out and get in there as soon as possible. Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: DangerZone on September 02, 2010, 07:56:50 pm Hi , JHY ... I ment nothing to your handling of your dogs,, I was just asking ... And I've been right there before as well, The want to gohunting or fishing can get you in to deep real quick. I got stood up at the boat dock one time by two buddies and decided to go by myself almost lost my 4yr old son , my boat and my a$$ to bad weather ..... So you know I wasn't judging just asking. Danny Ward
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: Scott on September 02, 2010, 08:17:05 pm in my opinion i would want her to let go before she heat stroked but hold til death from injury. Unfortunately, those two actions are mutually exclusive.... Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: make-em-squeel on September 02, 2010, 08:35:17 pm in my opinion i would want her to let go before she heat stroked but hold til death from injury. Unfortunately, those two actions are mutually exclusive.... I guess thats true, but it seems I have seen a few dogs i think would let go before heat exhaustion set in or before they drownd in water but would never let go from being cut! I dont know ,,, ideal world /dog. Come on guys 90% of the post have nothing to do with how long a cd could hold a hog if it had to...thats the reaso for the post! Not til it dies, how long could it hold a hog before it died!! My guess is 30 min to an hour .. more in the cold less in the heat Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: outlaw on September 02, 2010, 08:40:05 pm most guys that have been catching hogs long enough carry rope with them.i hunt a lot by myself and a peice of rope can be your freind.if u cant flip him ,leg him and get your dog off.you can always usually get help to get a good size hog out of the woods.
Title: Re: Post by: Reuben on September 02, 2010, 09:06:34 pm Sure is a lot of debate on CD's latetly. "how long will a catch dog hold?" The short answer...........As long as it needs too! That being said, in my opinion, most of the time, "as long as it needs too" shouldnt be long at all. ;) The Ninja said it best. I believe it is the best answer... As long as it needs too but shouldn't be long... :) Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: S_J_KENNELS on September 02, 2010, 09:24:44 pm I have had them caught for over an hour before. Had 3 catches at one time and had to track these up. IMHO the catchdogs better stay caught till either I get there, or death do they part. I don't care how far out I turn them loose from. They better catch and hold till one or the other happens. Everybody hunts different and everybody has their opinion on these things. However saying folks that turn loose from a long distance don't care about their dogs is in most cases wrong. A catchdog or any dog for that matter can be killed as soon as they get to the hog no matter how close you are. You can be 10 feet or several hundred and have it happen. I turn loose from the truck as soon as I hear a bay. The last catchdog I lost died this winter at 15yrs old from old age. Guess we don't take care or care for our dogs since we turn loose from any distance. No matter how far it is, but you can bet your ass I am running as fast as I can behind them to get there. Also one of the reason I can not stand having one catchdog on the ground, and ALL my dogs better latch on as soon as the catchdogs hit. Also any catchdog that is worried about self preservation should not be hunting. Again my opinion.
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: HogzgoneWild on September 02, 2010, 09:43:14 pm Mine are taught as long as needed, but the shorter that time is the better. But thats my job and responsibility to keep that time as short as the situation allows.
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: hogdoggintn on September 02, 2010, 10:18:18 pm Only two or three people have actually answered my question. The purpose of this topic was to get a specific event in which your dog has had to hold for an exceptionally long period of time. I know that ideally a catch dog will hold until death. I like to read your hunting stories so that is why I posted this topic.
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: BarrNinja on September 02, 2010, 10:45:13 pm Here is how the situation went down. I was hunting by myself one morning at my buddies farm because no one would get up to go with me. I got my buggy stuck in the creek so I began walking back to his house. I let the dogs down and took the cut vest off of my bulldog. All I had seen was small tracks in the area so I wasn't too worried. I didn't get far and my cur and jagd started baying in a briar thicket. I assumed it was a shoat so I sent my bulldog in. When I got there it was a 250+ boar. I legged him and tried to throw him but the briars wouldn't let him go over. I didn't have a knife so I tied his back leg to a sappling and had to run a mile back to the house, get a buggy and rifle. I hauled but back and shot the thing at point blank range. It was my mistake, but I did the best that I could do. It's not easy to throw a big hog like that in an east Texas wildcat thicket by yourself. Joey Young I figured there was a good story with your other post. Anybody that has been hog hunting long enough has had things similar to this happen to them I would think. I know I have. I thought I was going to be clever and release my CD on a small boar that broke out of the woods right on top of me one day. She was a fast CD but not fast enough. I misjudged the angle I thought the boar would make and they were off to the races. Vested CD and all! We caught up with them 1.2 miles later where they caught and drowned the hog in a deep slew. My CD was fine but I was lucky it wasn’t hot. Yeah, I have made some bone headed moves also! Lessons learned from mistakes are lessons learned well! Stories like yours are the kind of stories people can learn from. Thanks for taking the time to share it with us. Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: jhy on September 03, 2010, 07:33:26 am Yall, are making me come clean and my ol lady better not read this post.
Yes, I had a lead and hobbles and I was able to tie one leg to a tree, but with the briars so thick I couldnt get around the hog to get the dog and I dont know many people that would have stayed in there on their hands and knees fighting this hog for as long as I did to get him tied to a tree. When I say thick, you folks in east texas know exactly what I am talking about. Had to crawl in and then crawl out. I agree shooting a hog point blank is a bad idea, but at that point who gives a flip when you have to run a mile or so just thinking about your dog getting killed. I actually went out to catch a small shoat to show/impress some Cougars from Dallas that I had been playing with all weekend. So yall made me dig up the pics of this hog and Catch. Just for the record, Catch has more heart and brains than any catchdog that I have ever come across and there are plenty of folks to back that one up. Heavy Jeep Blood! The hog, Catch, and I. (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/jhyjr/CatchandMarshallboar.jpg) The dummies that didnt get out of bed (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/jhyjr/dummiesandmarshallboar.jpg) The Cougars that I went out to be the "GREAT WHITE HUNTER" for. Something about an older woman just drives me crazy, especially when they are millionaires!!!! :) (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/jhyjr/girlsandboarmarshall.jpg) Joey Young Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: chainrated on September 03, 2010, 10:50:33 am As fas as how long a catchdog would hold if you never went to him, there are so many different factors that come into play that would be a hard question to answer.. But like I said on the other thread, I would EXPECT the dog to hold as long as his body would allow..
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: hoghunterdfw on September 03, 2010, 11:01:37 am this thread reminded me of a BIG huge dogo Kevin A once had that broke out of its pen to catch a big boar that had escaped or some story like that. If I remember right he told me he found them both next to each other at the bottom of a creek, dead or near death from heatstroke (either way they both died) cause I guess that dogo did not want to let that hog go. Not sure how long they were caught but from what I heard it sounded like a pretty long time.
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: chainrated on September 03, 2010, 11:12:28 am this thread reminded me of a BIG huge dogo Kevin A once had that broke out of its pen to catch a big boar that had escaped or some story like that. If I remember right he told me he found them both next to each other at the bottom of a creek, dead or near death from heatstroke (either way they both died) cause I guess that dogo did not want to let that hog go. Not sure how long they were caught but from what I heard it sounded like a pretty long time. Must have been a mean hog to have drug that dogo down in a creek and killed him.. :D Just messin with ya Kevin, lol.. Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: coyote hunter on September 03, 2010, 11:22:39 am my bro n law sent his old pit 1000 yrds or better she was caught for over an hour and still caught when we got there if that helps u any theres no exact timeline for an answer to this question different dogs/situations/weather and terrain all factor in
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: raider54 on September 03, 2010, 03:01:28 pm My bulldog Catch has held a good boar (250+) for nearly an hour in the July heat until I got back with a gun. He took 52 pokes and never let go until that 350 carbine dropped the hog. Ideally they should hold until dead What? Why? I think I will try to pass on the OVERHEATED DOG and the 52 pokes! O0 Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: kevin on September 03, 2010, 03:25:33 pm this thread reminded me of a BIG huge dogo Kevin A once had that broke out of its pen to catch a big boar that had escaped or some story like that. If I remember right he told me he found them both next to each other at the bottom of a creek, dead or near death from heatstroke (either way they both died) cause I guess that dogo did not want to let that hog go. Not sure how long they were caught but from what I heard it sounded like a pretty long time. That was Bo. I don't know how long he was caught. It was in the high 90's that day. The hog was probably 350 ish. He had 3 1/2 inch cutters. The boar got out of the pen and went up by the dog kennels. Bo jumped the 6 foot kennel into the one next to his and flipped the latch. When I found them they were both heat stroked, I don't know if he quit because he wanted to or not. I just know he was alive and you could touch his eyeball and he wouldn't blink. He died shortly after. I figure being that he couldn't even close his eyes he probably couldn't catch anymore. Matt, no prob. I live in the real world. I know they are far from great. I just like them. Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: Reuben on September 03, 2010, 03:29:57 pm That was Bo. I don't know how long he was caught. It was in the high 90's that day. The hog was probably 350 ish. He had 3 1/2 inch cutters. The boar got out of the pen and went up by the dog kennels. Bo jumped the 6 foot kennel into the one next to his and flipped the latch. When I found them they were both heat stroked, I don't know if he quit because he wanted to or not. I just know he was alive and you could touch his eyeball and he wouldn't blink. He died shortly after. I figure being that he couldn't even close his eyes he probably couldn't catch anymore. Matt, no prob. I live in the real world. I know they are far from great. I just like them. [/quote] Sounds to me like he was a very good catch dog. Too bad he wasn't found sooner. Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: chainrated on September 03, 2010, 03:32:25 pm Any dog that will stay that long is what I would call a catchdog ..
kevin, we gonna try to plan a trip back out to Texas. Get up with me and let me know when you can go.. Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: Bump on September 03, 2010, 04:06:27 pm Only two or three people have actually answered my question. The purpose of this topic was to get a specific event in which your dog has had to hold for an exceptionally long period of time. I know that ideally a catch dog will hold until death. I like to read your hunting stories so that is why I posted this topic. This topic really seems pointless. Your asking for something no one should do or know why they would do. Atleast I have no idea why someone would time how long a dog would catch. Aside from a few accidents and misfortunes like Joey or Kevin had....asking how long a catch dog can hold in a hunting situation is like playing russian roulette. Anything over a few minutes is way too long. Although there are certain circumstances where a hog breaks or somethings happens and it is unavoidable. Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: Hogboy on September 03, 2010, 04:33:10 pm Rex is correct about the unavoidable and hogs breaking. We had a big hog break that was in the wide open as soon as we let the catchdogs loose from less that 100 yards. When they got half way there the hog broke to a rose hedge ball that was BAD. We tried from all side to get in and couldnt. We had to chop our way in there and use the buggy to knock some down. By the time we did get there all of the curs had quit and were laying around the outside. There were two catch dogs there on the verge of heat stroke that were nose to nose with that hog. They all three were in a stair down panting and if the hog would move, both dogs would catch untill they would give out again. Luckily we kept a thrid catchdog back and he closed the deal when we got in there. I think the hog was glad we dispatched him as well. It was a bad situation were it got hot, it was the 4 or 5th hog of the morning and the hog broke. Things happen, but I was glad those two bulldogs worked together and took breaks or we would have lost two good ones that morning. And that ordeal only took about 20 minutes. That is more than any dog should be asked to do in my opinon, because I am like most of you. I dont want to find out how long one can.
RJB Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: raider54 on September 03, 2010, 08:21:47 pm This is just my opinion 1) A catch dog should stay caught until its last breath 2) A catch dog should only be caught for a few seconds to a couple minutes before you get there 3) Its a dumb a$$ move sending a catch dog from over 50 yards to a bay. All these types that will send a CD from 500 yards out are not very smart in my mind and dont give a crap about their dog, the dog shouldnt have to worry about self preservation thats our job and we owe that much to our dogs to help them out and get in there as soon as possible. 50 yards????????? you just called a bunch of people on here a dumb a$$ Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: brw7979 on September 03, 2010, 08:26:16 pm I think he should hold on as long as it takes. It could take a few seconds to an hour. You never know that just when you let the CD's go if that hog is gonna break and then you'll sometimes have your cd trying to catch up to the bay dogs and get caught when they stop the hog again and it could take awhile before you get there.
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: Caney Creek Hog Doggers on September 03, 2010, 09:46:18 pm I run 2 to 4 cds when we hunt depending on the location. I usually let 2 go to the bay but if need be I can let more. I have had cds hold on for tops an hour, we hunt all year long and seem to not have a problem with cds over heating cuz there locked on. In my opinion running at least 2 is better than running just one so you don't get one dog in a bad bind, I know every body hunts different and most ppl run one cd all I am saying is I haven't experienced lots of problems with cds holding a hog for extended periods of time!!
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: raider54 on September 03, 2010, 11:14:40 pm Rex is correct about the unavoidable and hogs breaking. We had a big hog break that was in the wide open as soon as we let the catchdogs loose from less that 100 yards. When they got half way there the hog broke to a rose hedge ball that was BAD. We tried from all side to get in and couldnt. We had to chop our way in there and use the buggy to knock some down. By the time we did get there all of the curs had quit and were laying around the outside. There were two catch dogs there on the verge of heat stroke that were nose to nose with that hog. They all three were in a stair down panting and if the hog would move, both dogs would catch untill they would give out again. Luckily we kept a thrid catchdog back and he closed the deal when we got in there. I think the hog was glad we dispatched him as well. It was a bad situation were it got hot, it was the 4 or 5th hog of the morning and the hog broke. Things happen, but I was glad those two bulldogs worked together and took breaks or we would have lost two good ones that morning. And that ordeal only took about 20 minutes. That is more than any dog should be asked to do in my opinon, because I am like most of you. I dont want to find out how long one can. RJB Im all for the CD that backs off before he dies of heat stroke but a few weeks ago you would have had several on here tell you that you should cull the 2 taking a break! I believe there was one post on here that had the opinion of who cares thats why they make more CD'd Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: Scott on September 04, 2010, 07:00:58 am "Im all for the CD that backs off before he dies of heat stroke but a few weeks ago you would have had several on here tell you that you should cull the 2 taking a break!"
Opinions vary....but, I'm sure that those "several" are still out there and that their opinion, most likely, has not changed. Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: grizz07903 on September 04, 2010, 09:32:11 am i expect my cd to hold as long as it takes for me to get there.
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: raider54 on September 04, 2010, 01:50:57 pm "Im all for the CD that backs off before he dies of heat stroke but a few weeks ago you would have had several on here tell you that you should cull the 2 taking a break!" Opinions vary....but, I'm sure that those "several" are still out there and that their opinion, most likely, has not changed. No Doubt Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: T-Bob Parker on September 04, 2010, 02:22:55 pm i dont know if the length of time they stay cuaght is of any real importance to me, as long as they are cuaght when i get there and dont let go until i break them off.
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: hogdoggintn on September 06, 2010, 10:43:30 pm Only two or three people have actually answered my question. The purpose of this topic was to get a specific event in which your dog has had to hold for an exceptionally long period of time. I know that ideally a catch dog will hold until death. I like to read your hunting stories so that is why I posted this topic. This topic really seems pointless. Your asking for something no one should do or know why they would do. Atleast I have no idea why someone would time how long a dog would catch. Aside from a few accidents and misfortunes like Joey or Kevin had....asking how long a catch dog can hold in a hunting situation is like playing russian roulette. Anything over a few minutes is way too long. Although there are certain circumstances where a hog breaks or somethings happens and it is unavoidable. Thanks Rex. Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: T-Bob Parker on September 06, 2010, 11:04:30 pm yeah, well said rex
Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: raider54 on September 06, 2010, 11:51:02 pm Well, just wanted to share this with everyone been workin on a new CD line and came up with layla went out and got caught tuesday night a week ago had a hard time gettin to her, the bottom line is she was caught 12 days and seemed to suffer no Ill effects.
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r123/raider54_photos/UltimateCD.jpg) We have her breed to a big Dogo right now pups will be here Oct 1st but back to the thread 12 DAYS!!!!!! Title: Re: how long will a catch dog hold? Post by: hogdoggintn on September 07, 2010, 12:08:50 am WOW!!!!! :o
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