EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Do you think breeding a littermate brother and sister is too tight?

I know it will bring out the faults of both. I am planning on keeping the whole litter.

The goal would be to keep the best two out of the litter. And perpetuating the line. However I am willing to cull all of them if it does not work.

I would rather breed father or grandfather over female 1 or breed mother or grandmother over male 1 but that is not possible.

What do you guys think? Is it a waste of time and $$ or should I just look for an outcross.

look up linebreeding in the search box..there have been tons of threads about them..take sometime and look through them. some real good stuff in there..

Please list the top 7 pros of the dogs you breed to get them. Also list the top 7 negatives of those dogs as well. Are the parents related at all. Are they the same breed, or are they purebred at all. There are no right answers to my questions, but the truth will all add into the equation.

Top 7 pro

Drive ( willingness to find hog/ to please) whatever you want to call it.
hunt
nose
range
smarts
build
Grit (not too much...not to little)

top 7 con
Dad
Indepent where he would not hunt and stay with another dog.

he's dead and I cant still hunt him ;D real con

Mother

Hard to break from cows! Fault in my book but not in others
Would mouth very, very, very little as she got older behind a running hog

Dad is BMC mom is Leapord. Not related at all. Yes both purebred. Dad is linebred through his breed.

If they both turn out as good as either parent I would be happy. I am shooting for better.

I know all about it. You just get very conflicting thoughts from oldtimers and breeders alike on what is too close.

Bingo, just knowing that they are litter-mates is not nearly enough information.

If they are an F1 outcross, you can probably do it with no real risk. If they are pure bred dogs with low coefficient, more risk. If they are the product of an already established line, more risk still.

No matter the situation though, what is the harm in trying if you are keeping them all and culling honestly?

Coming from two lines of totally unrelated stock, and assuming that they turned out exactly like I wanted, I would do it in a second.

and cull hard...

The first thing to remember is you cannot fool mother nature. I have found that bad traits will occur more frequently than good traits.

Also some dogs are prepotent and some dogs are not. A certain dog might be super double throw down bad to the bone. That dog might not be able to produce jack. Some dogs work very well bred to a certain dog and bad bred to another dog.

Look for a dog that is a proven producer. In bird dogs a female that is a producer is called a "blue hen". You can breed a blue hen to just about any kind of dog and get something. Breed her to a great producing male and you have a rubber stamp producing good pups.

Horse guys have already figured this out. Great producing females are highly coveted as they should be. If you can get hold of that great female that can produce guard her like your sister's virginity.

Absolutely! But there is only one way to find out....

No doubt about it. You will never know unless you give it a try.

I bred one of my bird dog bitches to a really good male one time. The one I kept was worthless. She would not hunt to the front and I got rid of her after about 2 or 3 times in the field. I will not fool with a dog that won't handle. Several of the other pups in that litter were very good. In fact one of them won puppy and derby of the year for region 7 (Texas). Another one went over to Alabama and won quite a bit over there.

I bred my two best hog dogs and had 8 pups of which 7 died from mastitis. The one left looked great and I really worked with him but he just did not have it and I got rid of him. Who knows--he could have been the best I ever owned.

some lines can take a breeding that close and others cant you will find out alot about your dogs when you cross that tight, and it may work, i would say its worth a try if you are wanting to reproduce a certian individuals traits.  good luck

You said it right right there... :)

My sister has a gyp that is the tightest breed dog of my line the little gyp is just a nice dog!!She was the only puppy in her litter I was going to do away with her and my sister raised her!! After watching her work as she got older I said lets breed her!! I took her to three different outside dogs and all three litters she had atleast 2 pups that had 6 toes on one foot!! Breed to yellow dogs the pups would come out like a spotted hound!!With maybe 1 yellow in each litter!! I would take the yellow pups and raise them! I do not on any of them to this day so that should tell you they did not work!!When they got to a mature stage they would just go crazy!!
But in your case it might work!!I have seen it work in another case but there was only one pup raised out of that litter and it was a good dog!!

I am no expert on this and have not bred my own line of dogs for years like some of these guys on here, but we have a family of coyote hunters up here named DEE who have raised July hounds for over 100 years, Grandfather passed down ect. ect.. They have never bred outside there own yard except 2 or 3 times in all those years, I have personly hunted with them all my life, none of there dogs have ever been retarded, deformed, had 2 tails or anything like that ever. The only problem they ever ran into according to them was some male dogs would go steril earlier than normal, that is it. In those cases they would outcross and then not to total 100% outcross dogs. What they did and still do produce is July hounds that catch coyotes and breed true to type and form, My neighbour has the same Game Chickens on his yard as he had when he was 16 and he is 77, same breeding style. If you want either peoples number PM me and I'll give it to you and you could talk to them more in detail. Not saying anyone on here is wrong, just what I have seen in person

I modified to add this: Google and Look @ the New Guinea Singing Dog, believed to be a dog breed with zero outcrosses for 6,000 years due to it's isolation on the island of papua New Guinea. I think culling or natural selection in the singing dogs case is what really makes the difference if you decide to line/inbreed JM 2C

if  you took  2  rabbits  out  of a  40 acre  block and  could  test  to  see how  many times  they are related what  would  you  think the  out come  would  be ...... if  you  have  problems  already  in the  line  it will  or  can  show ....  most  people  think  the  dogs  will be  some  kind  of  freaks lol ......i'd  bet  most  of  my  line  bred  dogs  are  more  tightly  blooded  than   alot of inbred dogs ....

these  three  picture  top  is  my  old  blackie  dog second  is  JR .....blackie is  great grandpa top and bottom and the father  of  JR ....... shad  is  third out  of  jr and queen  .... blackie  is  great  great  grandpa  twice and granpa once  on his  top  side and is  also great  great  grandpa twice and  grandpa once on teh  bottom .......and  i  just  bred  shad   to  his  momma  and  she  is  blackie top  and  bottom several times .....


do  you see  anything  wrong  with   those  three  dogs ...?


(http://parkercurdogs.com/picture_of_old_black_and_me_with_evadale_barrhog.jpg)

(http://parkercurdogs.com/jr22.JPG)

(http://parker.websitetoolbox.com/file?id=1015394)

That is what has worked for me. You just have to be honest with yourself and only pick the very best. When you outcross you really aren't outcrossing because you breed to some dog that is somewhat related that looks and hunts similarly to your dogs. Then you use the offspring because the bloodline has been freshened up enough with out changing your line of dogs... :o

That rabbit thing you just mentioned I have been saying for years. Wild animals don't care about brother, sister, mother, or father. They are oppurtunistic when breeding and sometimes it's the strongest males will breed. Mother nature culls harder than most of us do and she only looks at the bottom line. The offspring has to be smart, fight off parasites and predators, or larger predators, as well as any disease that comes along. The few that survive are resistant to all of the above. It doesn't mean that all will survive but enough will to carry on the species. If they don't overcome they will become extinct.

Then if it is a prey type animal it needs to be alert and fast to survive amongst its natural enemies.

If it is a predator it needs to be fast, strong, and smart enough to catch its natural prey to survive.

Mother nature culls hard to ensure that only the very best are left to reproduce thus ensuring the survival of the species.

By the way, That is some fine looking Parker curs  you got there Larry.

Both are F1 outcross. Both are almost 3 years old and both proven.

The only reason I am contemplating it is I have yet to find an outcross that I would not be giving up something. Be it hunt, bottom or nose.

These are the only two left out of that litter. Out of the 6 that were hunted regularly all turned out above average. Thanks for the info.

Do it!

I breed Triggs for coyote & field trial  & hunt hard in the winter & have placed at the national level. I normally have two litters a year from my best stock & run them all so I can judge results of the breeding program. Many people do believe in line breeding at that level. Sometimes I have seen very experienced breeders who do breed say sister on brother & have sucess the first time, then the time or two they breed the offspring they get into trouble. It sometimes seems they are very good or maybe totally useless or anything in between. I personally dont believe in it & feel why should I do it. They say that if you do that, then both parents had better be very very good because of the likely hood of bad traits being emphasized. The one thing it does is give you unblieveable consistency, good or bad. This is fine if you have a purbred line with a history of conistency but when you are crossing two different lines where does this come in. Thats mine opinion anyway for what its worth.  I do have experience with breeding other livestock as well. I do know that if you cross two different breeds, be it dogs, cattle, horses or even chickens the first cross is usually very healthy & often very tough. I think the fact that they are completley different genes means they seem to get the best of both, thats my oppinion anyway.

when you breed bro/sis you are not linebreeding on a target individual...

you are linebreeding to every animal in that matings history equally...

one pup may pull traits from sires 8th generation, another from his mothers 3rd generation, so on and so forth...

it's a total crapshoot... be ready to cull...

one pup may pull traits from sires 8th generation, another from his mothers 3rd generation, so on and so forth...

it's a total crapshoot... be ready to cull... ???

As opposed to outcrossing where your pups may be pulling traits from only God knows where ;D IMO and that's all it is outcrossing on a regular basis is the biggest gamble you can do, and I will bet my last dollar more good lines of dogs have been lost that way than any other single problem in dog breeding, lack of culling or " barn blindness " being a close 2nd, but to get back on topic, my vote is this.  If both dogs are exactly what you want to reproduce go for it, if not look elsewhere

here is my 2cents you can do it but i don't think your consistency will start factorin in til a couple or more litters are produced for the fact the the grandparents were not kin at all which would mean you were startin your own line and it would call for lots of culling i mean anything you don't want would need to be gone cause if its not chances it will show up more and more i say do it see what will happen cull hard if it works good deal

It's not rocket science...

Experiment until you find what you want, then line breed the  :-X :-X out of that, then cull ruthlessly until you've fixed type, then cull/refine until you've removed the major faults. By then you'll be 90 years old and can only hope that the next generation won't squander or abandon what you've spent your whole life building.

Hybrid vigor and in-breeding depression are very real, but they are also very over-blown. I don't understand why horsemen and houndsmen keep having the line-breeding/out-crossing debate. Line breeding is the only way to create reliable/predictable type, period. Intra-breed-out-crossing proponents like Pat Burns conveniently forget that they can get a lot of jam-up dogs from out-crossing now only because of all the hundreds of years of selective line breeding that went into their hounds/terriers/bird-dogs before they were even born that created large pools of prepotent stock among various breeds/types from which they can now "out-cross" <sigh>. It's like a trust-fund baby that thinks you don't have to work hard to be wealthy... he forgets that his granddaddy had to work hard to make all that money.

I believe there is lots of truth to what you are saying. Part of the breeding problem IMO is that we as humans have a wide range of ideas as to what a good dog is or what a good hunting dog is supposed to look like. This is one reason we have such variation in hunting dogs.

Then you have the folks that breed brownie who doen't hunt or bay but the sire was a decent dog.  To me we should never do this but I have been guilty of it but only because I knew the line of dogs and the negative was minor. I also took into consideration that even though this dog was not of the best quality it was not an outcross so that was my logic as to why I did it. I have inbred and linebred to get where I wanted to be quickly but knew I couldn't make a mistake when culling.

I do not understand totally the genes as far as dominant and recessive but I do know that a lot of the hunting qualities in a dog are from recessive genes so when you outcross in another type of dog to the line we work so hard to establish, it is very possible we lose all what we have bred for for many generations in that one outcross. I believe this happens because a lot of the negative traits come from dominant genes. I know we can get the hybrid vigor but even that should be done with a not so distant relative.

each set  of  dogs  is  going  to  breed  different ....you  can't  just  apply  what  you  have  read ......it's  all  what COULD   happen if  you  do  this  or  that  breeding ......there  is  NO  doubt if  you  like  what  you  have  line  breeding  will  benifet  you  even  if  you  have  to  cull  some ..... its  perty  simple  pick the  best  dog  that  suits  you  and then  line  breed  back  and  fourth  pooling  his  or her  blood  til  you   get  some  consistant  results ....... it  is a  process  for  sure ////

Good responses,

In k-9 genetics dogs can pull from any dog in their ancestry. Thats why you can have siblings that dont look alike. To lessen the number of factors closing down on and isolating desirable traits will produce the most predictablity. Mad man experimental outcrosses is like throwing puzzle pieces in the air and letting them land wherever. You have the right idea tryin to keep em all. You would have to cull the undesirables otherwise you'll be locking that in. If they are not closely related beyond the parents somoeone would need to try this anyway. If they are closely  related in the bakground be mindful of want your locking down with those two.

yeh, i understand that, he is not going to be line breding till he makes a few more breedings back into theses 2 dogs. but if he is wanting to reproduce the traits of those dogs parents how else are you going to do it with the other dogs dead and gone.

Chance, was the odd color comming from the outside dogs as in the one you bred to being not of your line?

No I knew the history of all them dogs I breed to they were all yellow dogs and produed good pups before I breed to them!!I'm not sure why they spotted up but firgured it was from a gyne that was clashing with how tight breed she was! This gyp is breed way to tight!! I breed another gyp on purpose full brother to full sister!!Had a pair of the pups raised them to a year old and was hunting them they were goofy but hunted good then breed accidently to each other there was one pup my sister got her because she did not want me to do away with the pup!!So she is truly double inbreed and will flat work a cow!!But her bell don't ring all the time!!That is when I decided to breed her back to an out side male!!It never worked!!

I'd say go ahead and do it Lynel, if you are going to keep the whole litter might as well do it and see how they do!