EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

curious to see whos breeding catahoulas that can do it all. and by that i mean, find thier own hog and catch it with out  a catch dog? but still has enough sense to back up on really rough hogs. gritty cats with brains and drive.

whos breeding them and what bloodlines are best for this style of hunting?

thankyou!

i have a new line of cats crossed between speck and cawliga supposed to do it all. ;D

coyote76 wrote-  curious to see whos breeding catahoulas that can do it all.

If you ever find that line let me know, I never did  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

hahah yea hopefully they will. just tryig to find some more!

what should we call this line john?

you will be the first if and when i do!  ;D

Koyote76, The type of Catahoula's you are asking about will probably come from cow dog lines that have been selected to work cattle. This type of dog has a brain that is wired in a different way than most straight hog dogs. Cow dogs are selected for working cattle in a herd, this herd may be three or three hundred but the theory is the same only the number of dogs working increases with the number of cattle. What these cow dog are trying to do is put all the cattle they can find in one tight bunch and hold it together at all costs. When they have a herd together and settled they will/can relax. Their brains are programed to not tolerate an animal outside of the herd, and they will exert maximum pressure on an animal that leaves the herd or will not join the herd.

What this means for a cow dog is that they bay a herd with a lot of circle, they should never stop running around a settled herd and be relaxed and never bite anything. When a single breaks from the herd they hit high gear, their bark rate will double and they will hit that cow hard, biting at every opportunity. This heavy treatment will continue untill the cow returns to the herd. But, (and this is what you are talking about in a hog dog) if the cow does not return to the herd and bays up to fight the dogs (just as a single hog would) the dogs will work and spin the cow untill they can catch. They will stack up on both ears, jaws, and elbows just like on a hog. One of three things will happen. The cow will give up the fight and submit but remain standing, the dogs will pull it to the ground, or the cow will shake off the dogs and run back to the herd.

Cow dogs generally have very clean holding style. They are catching cattle that weigh 800 to 1,500 pounds. If they are going to survive very long they need to grab an ear and stay tucked back at the cows elbow especially on horned cattle. If they get out in front they are going to get hit with the flailing front feet of the cow and knocked to the ground. The cow will then gore them, smash them with her head or try and crush the chest cavity with its knees and brisket. A dog that will catch and hold a 1,000 pound horned cow will catch a hog with out even thinking about it.

How this relates to hog hunting, and your question, is that when a dog finds a single hog, there is no herd for that hog to join that will offer protection from the dogs. Therefore the dogs are programed to catch and hold the hog untill the hunter arrives. I breed a a line of Catahoula's that I use mainly for cattle that work on hogs just as you have described. A pair of them are going to catch anything that can't kill them, that's usually means over two hundred pounds with good teeth.

I hope that makes sense and it is the reason I would suggest you look for some rough cow dog stock for dogs like this.

Thanks,
Paul T

man that is the best sales pitch i have ever heard.... ;D I want one too.....

Thats no sales pitch, its just the truth. 

You have a way with words silverton!! I'd sure like to see some of them dogs work one day!

this was pretty much my point too.... no disrespect ment silverton

I'm not sure what line of Catahoula she came out of but my Catahoula/Whippet can do it alone when she outstrikes my other dogs or if I run her alone. My other dogs "weight limit" is a little higher then I like but she has been backing up at around 150.
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g90/bigainaboi/HogsNDogs/DSC03696.jpg)
11 months old

The two older fellers I hunt, All they run is Catahoula and they will find bay and catch there ass off. We rarely use catch dogs in my area. The line is mainly from Camp-a-while and these two fellers have has this line for about 20 years now. Best dogs I have every hunted with. All the good hog hunters in my area run Catahoula as well and they come  from Camp-a-while and Wager and about 90% these dogs I have seen the same results and the other group of hunter run whatever free and I ain't joking, So its easy to see whats good and not lol. But just about every Catahoula I've seen here in my area is what your wanting. Here is a picture of these two gyps I just got from those older fellers. There about 9 weeks old now and there already look promising.

(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w195/TCPVince/2209b10a.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w195/TCPVince/744158c8.jpg)

If I ever buy a catahoula I would buy one of these, a line of dogs that is proven to trail and bay and stop/catch a hog. :)

Ill take one too!!  :)

after talking to silverton on pm a few times last night i realized this was a pretty $hity thing to post.
I wish I had the time to devote to my dogs and to their training like he does. he has some fine dogs...
 :-X

I have never met Paul in person.  I have never seen his dogs work first hand.  That being said, Paul is a true dogman.  He is not out to fluff anything or anybody up.  I take him completely at his word.  Hats off to you Paul for being one of the "true" gentlemen left out there.   :)

Paul,
Just curious on your opinion on this. But the same fellers I got my two gyp out sell a lot of litters to cow guys cause they work well, like you explain but my question is how come when some don't work out to be a hog dog there great cow dogs? I know in every litter not all the dogs will be the best but just about every dogthat didn't work out for them or the few that they got from another breeder how's turn out to be a great cow dog.

There is as much difference in cow dogs as hog dogs. Some cow bred dogs just don't crave working hogs. Some don't have the "hunting drive" to go deep and find hogs. You can have a nice usable cow dog that doesn't have much hunt because you are taking the dog to cattle and then he goes to work. I would be interested to me to watch a dog like that work and try and understand why that dog didn't make it as a hog dog.

I ask a lot of my cow dogs. The best of the best that I raise will always be outstanding "go find them" dogs. The dogs that can't quite make the cut (because of style) will almost always make really nice hog dogs, for someone else......so I am used to seeing the opposite of what you are talking about. My only guess would be a genitic preferance for cattle over hogs.

A top cow dog has got to do about three times the tasks that a good hog dog does and style is much more important with a cow dog. Three examples of that would be natural handle, constant circling on a settled bay, and leading out cattle that are being driven.

A dog handlers job is to help the dog find the work that they can excel in and let them work. If we are trying to put a square peg in a round hole we are not doing the dog any favors. I don't want to be good at fixing square pegs, I want to breed better round pegs.

Thanks,
Paul T

I am no Cat breeder but working dog is a working dog! I feel that some take to a cow better than others because they feel like they are working for you a cur dog will work harder and longer cow or hog if they feel like they are doing a Job for you! Just watch your dogs work and not let them know your there then walk up and let them see you show up the dog will work stronger and harder! I feel like some dogs when they are working cattle and feel that this is what you are asking of them then they just take to it better! I have seen dogs get to a bay on hogs in the woods and stop baying just cause they ain't sure if that is what you want them to do!! But put them on cows let them know how good they are doing then take them back to a hog hunt and they will stay hooked! JMO

I agree with CWARD on this one, I dont care what breed of dog that you are working with, the dog has to know that he or she is doing just what you want them to do. But with that being said the family of dogs that you use must have that drive and want to bred into them. I have not seen any Cats or Leopard dogs in my part of the country in years that were worth feeding. But I have a lot of respect for Silverton and his line of dogs. They are the right kind from what I have seen and heard about.

Thanks for all the input. I like to understand and hear other peoples opinion to only better myself and my dogs. And I know what you mean that dog has to have it in them to hunt and you can breed two ofthe best dogs together and doesn't mean all of them will work or etc. I've learned that all the years with horses. 

Rockin P
Well in my arena out of the hunters I know or have met I can count on my two hands that I've seen them use bmc or plotts etc. Where I'm at people use catahoula or they use free dogs that are mix with anything and everything  or border collies and etc. Yes I don't know how many guys try to train border collie to hunt hogs which ones to it's own. But in CA there not a whole lot of good catahoula breeders and if there here they are maiming show dogs that have no hunt.  But all the old fellers use catahoula that they have had for years and all the other in my area have bought there pups and gone from there. I got a buddy down in Texas Scott and he tells me all the time down here catahoula suck cause there so many and they have breed all the hunt out of them. In CA it's hard to even find a catahoula.  But he's had good luck with wager line this last few years. When I started I've been hunt around and with catahoula so I love the way they work. I haven't been around much black mouth or etc so can't say anything about them.

There are just as many sorry BMC as there are Cats! When people start saleing dogs then the culling stops! Its hard to put a dog down when you pay $300 to $500 a pup for it! But when I send a pup away I say right off the bat if he don't work then you know what to do with it!
Now there are some hunting breeders that give a garentee on there pups and if you take it back to them they will do away with the dogs if it is a cull!!You can probally count on one hand how many breeders that do that! This is JMO on why there are so many culls verse good dogs!

Cward
I agree with you 100%. It's just like I know some breeders that if they get a def dog or blind they still sell it. I'm sorry that dog should be put dog that a mess up on the breeding. And like you said I know of two guys that will take a dog back if it does work and 50/50 change it was the hunter fault on why the dog not working. And if you can't cull the dog then atleast fix it so you can't breed it.

Paul,
   
   Not too long ago I remember reading about your line breeding project with cat x plott crosses.  Are these dog being used on cattle? If so, what were the cats lacking that the plotts might bring to the table?

Chris,

Those pups have worked out very well on cattle. But I use them differently than the straight Catahoula's. I use the Plott crosses only on truly wild cattle that are not dog broke and are being caught/roped and shipped. The Plott crosses have a better nose, more bottom, and are louder. Their down fall as a straight cow dog is that they don't handle well, don't have as much circle, and don't lead out.

My straight Catahoula's have far better style with a lot of circle, lead out well, and handle. I use them to work/pen cattle as opposed to just catching the wild ones.

That makes sense...I can see where the range and lungs would really help in big country.

On a different subject:  Are you using your Border Collie in the pens with the cats too?  I had the pleasure of watching an awesome collie dog work last night. She is a cow dog by trade, but she was put on sheep last night to help turn on a BC pup. She was bred by a man named Travis Smith, from a town called Arnett in the panhandle of Oklahoma. I'm trying like heck to buy her, but I just don't think I can afford what it would take to own her. ;)

I am using my BC quite a bit. He is from cowdog stock (double bred Turk) with a lot of bite bred by Mike Eslick in SW Oklahoma. I use him as a pair with another BC one of my hands has, or use him with my Catahoula's depending on the situation. He also loves to work a hog, stock is stock to him. When you are in the cow business it pays to have several different weapons at your disposal, so to speak.

i  was lucky  to end up with one of pauls  plott cat crosses and i  couldnt help it when i got him i had to seee what he would do on some catte  most the cattel we raise are gentel and feed sack broke  most never seen a dog and   i think it was just boring to him they just bunched up to protect there babies  now on hog  different done a good bunch of staged hunts with him and  once he lines the track out  his track speed is  as good as any cur i have ever hunted with  i have a cur that hardley ever puts her nose down  just winds  and he will  finish a track faster then her  5 out of ten times its a fun race to  watch   that being said his handle likes alot but  me and the dog are working that  out but theres no doubt    there are lots of little thing i  have picked up about this dog that honestly make me think less of mine i have raised paul  breed working machines when he bred them  i never meet paul but just from owning this dog i know what he expects and it is more then just finding pigs and barking at them   thanks again paul for floyd

I agree. We sell all our pups with a "Hunting/Working Guarantee" if by 18 mths they do not perform to the customers needs, I state, i will take the dog back, work it with my team..If it STILL shows no drive/hunt then it's either spayed & given away (or kept by owner) or terminated. Then i supply the customer with another. If it does work with my pack then the customer has some handling issues..IMO.
To date it hasn't been needed!

I have somelines from some camp-a-while x's and some conch's lines amongst some other less popular lines. The camp-a-while mix seem to work the air (scenting) better & the conch's lines are better finders on the ground.
I'm currently researching a new gyp to import to Oz next year!  So this topic is of great interest to me!  ;)

Outback
I had gotta a gyp from Johnny wager and he wanted me to try her out. She was 2 years old and never was hunted many once or twice. She had been a chain all her life basically. So he sent her down I try for months to get her to work in the wood. She just won't go to bay or anything. I throw her on the bay pen look like she had work hogs all her life! But in the woods different story. So in stead of sending her back I got her fix and gave her to my parents since there dog had just died. So I can say he stay behind his dogs and his guarantee cause he sending me a new pup in the next couple months.

What new line are you gonna use if you don'timd asking?

Here's a Salty Dog that my uncle is working with right now.
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g90/bigainaboi/HogsNDogs/Saltydog.jpg)

Where I'm from, If money or property is exchanged between two men for a dog, and that dog doesn't make a hand, payment in full is returned and breeder is given option to reclaim the dog before it is culled, unless of course, the dog attacks or bites someone. This would result in the immediate cull of the dog.

A few hog dog breeders that I know including myself have a theory as to why there used to be so many catahoulas and black mouth curs that wouldn't hunt very well in the past.


We believed that most dogs in those days that were used as cow dogs, worked cattle close at hand and a dog that ranged very far was undesireable in most cases because it was hard to handle and also there was a possibility that it could be shot at the neighboring ranch for running cows.. In just saying that that says a lot about those cow dogs. If the dogs were used to windmill/work cattle including driving them that is great and when a cow breaks the dogs put enough pressure on it to bring her back is even better. However, some of the desireable traits for a cow dog are not so for a hog dog. For instance what I just mentioned about some cow dogs does not prove if the dog has a good nose or if it has the inclination to run a track very far or if it will range. If these dogs didn't need these traits to be a cow dog then these traits were passed on to the pups. This doesn't mean that some of the pups wouldn't make a hog dog but I think the percentage of getting good hog dogs from these dogs are a lot lower than getting hog dogs from proven hunting lines.

A big game hunting dog on the other hand is bred to hunt and produce game so we believe that those differences come in to play. It just makes sense that proven hunting dogs will reproduce a higher percentage of hunting dogs.

Nowadays there are a higher percentage of BMC's and catahoulas that hunt because they have been bred primarily for that purpose. JMO

I haven't yet decided TCB-Vince.
I have been talking, emailing & facebooking various breeders & owners for a few months now. Trying to get some continuity in names etc. A few names are starting appear more often than others.....ie-
Doug Mason, Tuskahomma, Wager, Wises, SwampPop & Facahatchee to name a few atm. Some of these people are easier than others to get a hold of. But i'll keep trying. I want this import to be spot on!
Camp-a-while comes up a bit (some of my dogs have some camp-a-while blood pretty close) but there is a couple of recently imported dogs from that line. I would prefer to be able to broaden the availabilty in OZ not suffocate it with lines already here!
I would happily take any further suggestions....I guess that's were this thread is heading any way......
 ;D ;D 8)

 What line of Catahoulas ------ Well thats a no brainer  MINE  of course
 
 All BS aside we hunted hogs for the last 10 yrs with these Lee bred dogs and yes  they find bay and catch  and never owned a catch dog til last year when we bought a dogo /ab pup from Bar - M  and a dogo gyp from  USHOG   and the only reason for that is so we can hunt my old dogs Trippz and Queen and send in a lil help if they need it
 We will normally hunt 2-4 grown dogs and about that many  young dogs ages from 10-11 months to 18 months old depending on the dog.
 our dogs are the bigger bred catahoulas  with Trippz being around a 100 pounds and Queen and the gyps going around 60 -75 pounds
and these dogs learn to work as a team and all will honor a bay  and are like a mob of gators when time comes and its all in..  and  yes we lost dogs and yes they get some pokes and and rips thats just part of the world we are in. All of our dogs are part of the family and
are very loyal. and dont think for a moment they wont double back and bail my butt out of a bind.   they will in a heart beat and have

Now we have had black mouth curs that would do the same and in my eyes was just as good as any catahoula on our yard and we have had some hound cur  crosses  that would burn up the country but they were used for more open country and as cowdogs as Silverton boars stated 

I do beleive that a catahoula and most cur dogs  need that bonding  with thier owners and have to trust in thier owners to
get the best bang for your money and have proven this time and time again, That dog wont hunt if he dont like his owner
its like us  we dont work as good if we dont like our boss
 and Yes  we still back our dogs up with your money back  if the dog isnt  working out for you at 18 months
  my ramblings and my words
   Dexter 

I agree with Silverton on his opinion about the cow dog lines. Although none of the dogs I hunt have been bred for cows in over 12 years it seems the good ones always take to cows right off the bat.. The first thing I do with my pups is take them down the road to a buddy of mines house and let them see his cows. I can tell a lot about them by how they react to the cows.. 95% of the time if they like them cows they will like a hog..
I went huntin about 2 weeks ago on a place where they have 200 or 300 cows on about 2000 acres and the cows just roam the whole place . My Rain dog bayed and I went to her and she had about 100 cows bunched up. When I got to her and she saw me she got all excited and started circling the whole herd and lookin at me like HEY look at what I did, you could tell she was proud of herself lol..
In my opinion it's not so much the "line" of dogs that makes a good "line" , it's the person breeding that line..
If that makes any sense..

It makes perfect sense to me!

I have also seen the same thing with the well bred mtn cur pups, they will bay cows at a young age. They might not have the natural ability for cow work as a well bred cow dog pup but they will bay tight.

I read a story in full cry where a professional big game hunter said that if his hound pups didn't bay a cow that he would cull them because he had learned that his bloodline of hounds, the ones that showed a high interest in cows were usually real gamey toward any game he trained them to hunt, and he also said that they made the best hunting dogs.

My buddy got a gyp out of salty and she his top dog


Your right about it's hard to get a hold of a lot of these people. If you want Johnny Wager number pm me and I'll give it to you. 

You already have some good info, alot of the registerd Cats are bred for Bay trial competition and loosing the drive to hunt, they will bay the hair off a hog, but take them out of that element and they do okay, but don't have what it takes to make the complete package of a dog.

I am not a breeder have only raised one litter of registerd stock for myself but have been hunting with other peoples for over a decade now. I finally found some that I liked enough to raise some for myself. I have been starting and hunting dogs for other people for a little over two years now, and have found some solid bloodlines from getting to work with those dogs from the start and see what they have as a natural instinct and not what has been conditioned.

what I have and like for their intellegence, and level headed workability has a mixture of TxMason, Sam Mason, Facahatchee one one side the other side is Riverbottom/Cowhouse, that includes Wager/Sam Mason stock.
I really like working the RiverBottom bred dogs because they are quick & eager to catch on and want to work.

I have also seen several pups that came from Dexter (confetti cathoulas) that were hard workers with good noses.

I can vouch for Paul's knowledge on what a cowdog is supposed to be.  I had the Smoke bitch on trial as a hogdog.  She wasn't exactly what I needed for a hogdog (with the terrain we hunt) but we used her on cows and she would flat-out burn a pasture up and bunch a set of cows in a hurry with the perfect combination of grit and FINESSE,  and STAY HOOKED.  A real solid cowdog, by anyone's definition. 

G'day Koyote
Good question and interesting reading.
Here in Australia we were lucky enough to have a pair of Camp a While dogs imported a few years back to show us what a catahoula should be.
The dogs here before could find and stop but the Camp a While bred dogs do it better and some places here there's that many pigs it doesn't matter what dog you have as you can drive up to the pigs and drop the dogs on them but other places it's harder and the better dogs shine.
Seems to be the norm to expect the catahoula to find and stop till you arrive isn't it?
What I'd like to know is which are longer range dogs/hunting lines as my gyp will go 3km on a fresh scent and hold a boar bailed till the other dogs and I arrive, she's a special dog though and I'm lucky to be owned by her.
Hopefully her pups will be as good.
Cheers

Great stuff Wolf
3k's hey? How do you hunt? On bike, car or foot? Wouldn't like to be running after my dogs 3k's away on foot! Especially in the rough stuff- (Is that mountain country?) I'm not that fit though  ;D
The camp-a-while lines are quite reputable that's for sure. Definitely a good start to the lines over here  in Oz.
Hopefully they can be bred right. They also seem to do well in the show arena! Very versatile! I also have some predominately bay pen lines that have adapted to the woods very well! Guess the woods dogs lines a tad further back also have an influence  :D  Versatile once again...Guess that says something for the breed!
I myself have finally decided on a new line that i'm sure will help improve the quality of the Working Catahoula in Oz! YES, i have learned alot from my previous imports & have now only settled for what i can gather as arguably the  most respected line of working Catahoula i can find in the USA! If all goes well, i can't see the need to go through the import process again.........

Well with the impending import into my kennels this topic was followed with interest by me. After many messages, emails & phone calls backwards & forwards i finally have chosen where my next Catahoula will come from!  :)
I happy to say Mr Douglas Mason will be sending a female from his current litter over to Australia next year to me. She will be hunted & i'm sure you guys will be seeing lots of pictures of her with some Aussie boars later next year.  ;)  Thankyou Douglas for selling me "Mason's HOPE".
I would also like to thank Paul for his influence, help & friendly words & advise by phone & messages. Also to the numerous people on this board that helped me with info gathering & contacts.
YOU ALL HAVE BEEN VERY KIND & HELPFUL - A credit to you all!
 ;D ;D 8) ;)  

Well Outback cat, sounds like you talked to the right people and did your research well! My money is on your dog turning out to be a fine one and I look forward to seeing the pictures of the pork you put an end to with her.

Best of luck to ya!

   I’m breeding a line of cats out of my hunting partners’ old cat cow dog. He was a special dog ,very intelligent  and handled cattle with finesse. This dog had a handle like no other ,even while working cattle he would listen  to commands. He would catch and hold a calf or cow when asked and let you rope it even if you had to rope over him. I have a direct daughter from him that is a finished hog dog. I raised a litter out of her and my red bmc strike dog. They are six months old and hog crazy!! I am going to raise dogs with intelligence and hunt. I think I have it ( maybe ).

hi all im from aus i was wondering if all your cats are registered

I'm happy to say also I picked up my first Cat from Mr.Mason out of the same litter goin down under.He is one lil fiesty dude thats for sure.He is black and tan with a lil brindle.Gonna be big and way diffrent personality from the hounds for sure.Good luck.

River bottom catahoulas - kris banik has awesome working catahoulas

Mr. Mason is a fine fella and has top notch dogs