EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I'm wondering why we call them help dogs instead of culls? I have one that falls into this catagory and the only reason I keep her is as a pet. She's my truck riding buddy, I don't hunt her anymore and I'm getting her spayed so that she can't create more of the same. I am just wondering why we hunt dogs that can't do it all on their own instead of culling them or finding them a non hunting home. Opinions anyone?

I used to have some help dogs ;)

It takes as much to feed a good dog, as it does a cull.

That's why I said I used to have some help dogs... ;D

I am only going to speak for myself.
I have some dogs I call help dogs, they don't hunt as hard as my other dogs. They are usually stay closer and usually the rougher of my dogs. I call them help dogs, because I expect them to go help, not that the better dogs need help but I want them to have help, fresher dog, that will honor the dogs bay when others dogs may all be split on their own hogs.
I don't wan't my dogs all split in 4 different directions but if they do my "not so independent" help dog will honor, rather than trying to run its own hog.
You can call mine culls if you want but if I thought they were culls then they would be culled.
My help dogs can and do find their own, but not as high a chance when I have some of my others on the ground.
So each to his own.

Your help dogs are probably better than my main dogs, so I'm not knocking anyones dogs! If it can find and bay it's own pig it isn't a help dog to me. There will always be dogs that just hunt better than others and will consistently out strike them.

My help dogs are also rougher so I'm in the same catagory as ugly dog but I'm not breeding them either.  Also it is hard to go buy all strike dogs unless u have a breeding program u have to go with what u have.

I will give you a for instance, and several people on here have seen my Buzzard dog, he stays within eye sight of me if were are driving ATV, he usually running beside me. If he winds something he is gone, if he hears something he is gone, he is really fast and will be too another dog in a flash. He is not busting tail full speed the whole hunt like some of my dogs do, so when the strike and a race might begin, Buzz gets there and is fresher, with alot of stamina.  He acts like a pet that wants to be under my feet 89% of time. The times we are driving and he heads out, he either winded or heard another dog, I trust him. We stop and we wait, I can trust him before the Garmin knows whats going on, I guess he "Helps me too".
Now October 22, this same dog, winds across an open pasture and when he was going away from us in the opposite direction we were driving, at about 180 yards and too fast too be trailing, all other dogs are the other direction, I knew he was about to find his own at 280yds he started baying, within 10 more yds the boar was caught and over. Because he does not really leave my sight, and he is usually not the one finding the hog, although he is capable, he is just not going to outwork my other dogs in the looking through the brush I only call him a help dog, most people would not own him because he stays too close to me.
Truthfully, I would not sell him even if someone was waving good cash under my nose, because to me he serves a quality purpose.
I opnly need one dog out finding the hogs, unless we have alot of help, I can only catch one hog at a time anyway.

Krystal,

   Is Buzzard a super short range dog, or a help dog?

Do you remember the little cat gyp, Lupe? To me she was a help dog.  Always honored another dogs bay...Never bothered to find her own hog.

I guess a lot of it depends on each individual's definition of help dog. My gyp will wind or run a track if the hog is within about 100 yd. If it's not that close she comes back to me. I've seen her jump a hog out of a pool, chase it into the woods and give up on it within a couple of minutes. If there is a bay she will go to it and bay like crazy and catch anything small. She just doesn't hunt and doesn't really run a track. If it's bayed she will "help". If it's already bayed then the other dog or dogs don't need help, just a cd. Like I said, not looking to start trouble or rag on anyones dogs, just curious. I'm new to all this, so I'm just forming opinions, which is why I asked the question.

I would classify her as very short range with no bottom.   ;)

     You may as well ask the question why do people use them "Yappy old Hounds" or why poeple use dogs with "tons of bottom" or why "Yella" dogs.  It is all a matter of what you like and how you like to hunt.  The way I learned to hunt was with one sometimes two "find" dogs and two or three "help" dogs and a catch dog.  I liked this style of hunting so I adopted it.  When hunting this way, the "help" dog is just as much important to the pack as the "find" dog.  Over the years and hunting with about three maybe four other people along the way I have come up with a hunting style and dogs that suit my personal preference.  Are my dogs better than anyone elses dogs?  Probably not.  Hell, they aren't even as good as my wifes.
   I understand the reasoning behind your question.  The way you prefer to hunt is to have your whole pack "gone and looking."  That's great!  If this is what you like, hunt that way and post many pictures and stories of what your dogs have done.  I have even read stories on here where trail barking hounds have caught hogs.  If that's what a man wants to feed, then by all means feed em (just don't bring em if you're gonna hunt with me!).
   With all of this being said, I have never bred for the purpose to get a help dog.  They are usually accidental breedings.  So, in my scenario, "help" dogs are not culls they are a part of my hunting style.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

That's funny Thomas, you referenced yourself and used the word style in the same sentence...  I bet Krystal would beg to differ.  You and your neon yellow shirt ;D

That's why I asked is to get ya'lls opinions. I'm all ears and like to hear everyone's different methods for catching hogs. Like I said, I'm new to this, I've been hunting with dogs for less than a year, so I'm still figuring out what I like and don't like. Happy hunting whatever your preference is!

Levi, No offence or arguements taken.

Chris, you are right about the Doggie & style thing. But about Buzz, I don't think the dog can trail his own food bowl, I can count on my fingers the amount of times this dog has struck and bayed in front of my other dogs, and frankly you have seen him, and doubt you would feed him yourself, his main purpose to me is to get to the other dog when one opens, I call him "Help" I jokeingly say I am bringing my strike dog because others think I am nuts when this dog is jumping up wanting to be petted acting like a retard, and well you know we like to be sarcastic. I know i never have to go look for my dog when I am ready to go to bed! ;D he is not a "good dog" by anybody's standard but my own.


Doggie you are right about my dogs being better, Love Ya!

Chris, I got all the style in the woods.  I wear an ETHD t-shirt and jeans when I hunt.  I am surprised you didn't bring up my hat that I covered in hunter orange duct tape to hunt in the forest.  That is called trend setting.

Uglydog-    I love you too but my dogs are easier on the eyes!  ;)

i have a dog that falls into the help dog category but only at times.  I have a really rough blue lacy that when i have my main strike dogs on the ground he will stay close to me/the truck and will honor a bay and he either bays super tight or will catch if he feels like it.  However, if i am running a long night or one of my strike dogs get hurt he seems to know when they are not on the ground and will go out and hunt and strike just as well as my best strike dogs.  Its seems like he knows he can depend on them when they are on the ground hunting, but he also knows that when they are not hunting he has to do it himself.  He is a help dog as far as i am concerned but i can't get rid of him for the simple fact of if my others get hurt or cut up i will have nothing and he can fill the spot no problem.

Amen.  I had a big ol cur that stuck by my side.  When he left it was on.  He would never out work my lead dog, but I would watch him wind and then take off behind him.  His nose would go straight up in the air like he was lookin at the stars.  I think he could do it, he just never did.  Why do all that running when somone else can, right?

Aren't all Lacy's just help dogs?   :D

My first strike dog was like that when I hunted with other people.  He would stay by the four wheeler.  He knew that the other dogs were out working, why should he?  It would hack me off.  But as soon as he was with his dogs or the other strike dogs were put up, there he was, right back in front.  I really think there are some balls to the wall dogs, and then there are some really smart dogs.  Take it how you want, but I really liked my smart dog.   Work smarter not harder.

Some dogs may be alittle better in certain areas that others arent.

For example, you could have a "help" dog that may not be able to find a hog as good as the others, but may be better at working the hog and getting it to stop, once the others strike it.

 I bet you wish you had that kind of "help" dog when Red and LJ couldnt get that good boar you been getting on to stop!  ;)

Everybody wants a dog that can do it all by their self, but not everybody has that kind of dog, so alittle "help" is needed. JMO!

I like the Question Levi... I've wonder as well?   CULL or HELP Dog and why do i need one?  MY dad is over looking at my dogs couple weeks ago,he's 77 and says " When me and your grand dad use to hunt rasorbacks, we use redticks to bay'em up and all the cur dogs did was follow the hound and chew on the hog till we got there"....... Now after i picked myself up off the ground because in my 44 years only hunting my dad did was from from a deer blind!!. We discused how they hunted and what i got from it was the number of help dogs you want or need is dependent on how big a hog your trying to catch, So can a strike dog and catch dog shut down a real rank big boar, or would it be better to have a strike dog,2 rough help dogs and a catch dog to get the job done??    Oh yeah now after more hunting and fishing trips than i can remember with my dad, I find out I'm a third generation Hogdogger and didn't even know it!!!

yah i think they were breed to help a certain breed out..  what was it i forgot.  oh yah those florida blueticks.  That is why they call them blue lacy's.  Always carrying blue"ticks" on there backs.  :P ;D

Somebody's jealous.   ;)

Hey, yall fellas play pretty.

i have a full fledged strike dog  always huntin an then two comin up with him  i say the 2 r help dogs cuz bones always strikes the hogs an if they r not with him they r on their way quickly  but i wouldnt trade either of em for a finished dog  the way i see it is they havent started huntin yet  they may or may not in the future  only time will tell  but to me help dogs r dogs that will help the strike dog but not hunt on their own yet  i see help dogs as dogs in training  ill never buy another finished dog  no pride in that  ill train my help dogs till they learn that i want them to find the hogs too

To me a good help dog is not a strike dog but a dog that runs with the pack and is good about stopping the hog. Instead of having a 2 or 4 hour race these type of dogs will stop the hog within 1 mile if they can catch up. These are not running catch dogs but extra gritty/rough pack dogs.

It is kind of like a football team. It takes different types to make a top rated team.

I had 5 to 7 what I considered to be top strike dogs that would hunt as a pack or by themselves and I caught lots of hogs with them but sometimes it was a good ways to the bay. A friend of mine uses several of these purebred dogs but will breed pit, cat, bmc in about half of the pack. He catches as many hogs but the races tend to be a lot shorter because of the pit blood.
His pack dogs vary in hunt, some have a lot of hunt and then others don't hunt but run with the pack and help stop a hog.

I wouldn't keep a pack dog that can't find a hog.

I would keep a pack dog that will hunt if if it isn't a real good strike dog as long as it helps in making the races a lot shorter.

As the population grows and the hunting land gets devided into smaller tracts then it only makes sense to start breeding strike dogs with the same traits as a good stop dog. I have had dogs with lots of grit but I have seen pack dogs that were way better at stopping a hog.
I used the words "me too dog" and "pack dog" I reckon it is another way to say help dog.

I can see why people would need a combination of dogs or help dogs to get the kind of results they are looking for to put an end to a hog.

I can also see why they are the 1st ones culled or sold as "help dogs" once they have a dog or dogs that do it all.  ;)

There was a time when all of my dogs were help dogs. Loose just one out of the pack and I couldn’t buy a hog much less get one bayed.

We call them Me-Too dogs. They run around behind the dogs that are doin all the work hollerin me too, me too...
That or blueticks..  :laugh:
But seriously they are good to have now and then like what was already said when the dogs have been bayed for a long time or running a long time it's good to have a dog that will go in and help. Or on a big hog it's good to have a rough me too dog that will help catch with the bulldog. Or when the other dogs are cut up and cant hunt..  I don't keep any because I only have 6 kennels..

Guess you was typing while I was Reuben, we call them me too dogs too..

 Help dogs with me will only live for 18 months  ???

I have three cat/walker cross dogs that are litter mates two males one jyp . The males will strike but the jyp stays back until she winds from the rig.She may not leave out with the others but when she does theres a hog.Help dog maybe but still a good one.

Well as for me....I have 2 dogs, that's all I want. One is a strike dog, the other a help dog...I like 'em both and can kill hogs with them alone. They both hunt hard and are close/medium range dogs. The help dog goes just as far as the strike dog and has found a hog on her own, but just doesn't do it regularly. Sometimes they're together, sometimes not but either will set the woods on fire getting to a bay and both will catch if they think they can handle it. I don't have the ability to hunt hogs every day I want to, just don't have that many around where I live, therefore I can't hunt enough to have all strike/find dogs, wish I could but I can't. You guys that have hogs right near you that you can hunt daily are sooooo dang lucky, thank the Good Lord tonight for that resource, wish I had it.

I have a full balls to the wall hog dog that will out strike anything i got off of the hood. He has a nose like all get out. I use to run all my dogs on the ground and he "lightning" Would behind the truck. He had never struck a hog ever but he would always go to the bay. Well One day I was just tired of him running behind the truck and not hunting and was going to sale hime to a guy the following week. I loaded the dogs for one last hunt got to the spot. Let all the dogs out to hunt got into the truck and heard a dog back up. I noticed it was him and i just said, leave that piece of trash back there. Well about five minutes later he got on the cab, Then on the hood.I had had at the time red blinking lights on all my dogs and could see the strike dog out there about 250 yards or so. Well he stuck his nose into the air off of the right side of the truck and started running back and forth on the truck. I stop and he rolled out to about 500 yards and bayed up. The rest is history. This is not a story about a dog that was young and all the sudden turned on because to this day no matter what dog or if by hisself he will not leave the truck to hunt on the groung. And to most this dog would be worse then cull. The dogs that are lots are calling cull may be very good dogs just not your style of dogs. He to most hunters would be the biggest piece of trash in the world, but to me he is amazing. I have hunted with many of people that there dogs were out 350 to 400 yards on the ground and he will roll off the hood and outstrike them. So would that be cull to most of you ground hunters i would say so, but really the dog had a hidden talent that took time to show.

I have a dog (Bushwhacker) I call a help dog.  If I cast him alone, he will range out around 500 yards (in no sign) and then come back.  But if I cast him with my "Sassy" or "Rip" dogs, he will stay with them, even if they go 2 miles.  He will always be at the bay, he's not going to get too rough and bust a bay, he's just an extra hand.  He can find his own hog, but if you put him with a couple more sure-nuff long range strike dogs, he will roll with them.  If he's with better dogs than himself, he doesn't try to outhunt them, he's content to let them take over and just packs up with them.  Now I call him a "help-dog" because he's not the calibre of my other dogs, but he can find his own hog, stop it and bay it.  But like somone else said earlier, I don't have to worry about him splitting from the other dogs.  By definition he would be considered a decent strike dog (500 yd range, can find his own hog), but to me he is a help dog because he's simply helping out better dogs.  I could probably cast him by himself more, and make a better dog out of him than what he is, but I don't get to hunt as much as most folks, so I take the "A-team" every time.  I only have 4 dogs to hunt, and he is the 4th best, but he is very valuable to me if I have a female in heat or a hurt dog.  I don't need 4 dogs that can find a hog, I only need one dog to find it, but I do want extra dogs at the bay.  The reason I like him is because he is NOT too independent.  He fits my pack and is part of a team.  I could take him with some of the guys around here who hunt "muffler sniffers" that you can always see, and they would think he's a "go-yonder" dog.  What I'm saying is "help-dog" does not always mean cull.  One man's cull, is another man's help-dog, is another man's ACE strike dog.  I guess it comes down to what your standards and expectations are.           

He would definitely not be a cull to me. I love rig hunting, just not that many places to do it where I hunt.

Thats just it mr chainraited! He would not have been cull to you or now me or other rig hunters. But to most who never rig hunt. Just ground hunt or hunt off 4 wheelers i think he would be and i could see why. My point is just because a dog will not go out and hunt 500 to 600 yards and hunt does not always mean they are cull or help dogs. thay may be amazing dogs like he is to me. Just you have not found that out yet. Its all a matter of style and opinions that make a dog cull or help i believe. If it was not for that one day that dog would be long gone and i would have never known he had it in him. The guy i would have sold him to could have told me that and i would have called him a liar. I  have taken other dogs from other people that they say there just a help dog. I get them to working off the truck and they make jam up dogs. IF a dog can wind a hog will initiate a bay he is a hunting dog in my catigory. Ever body has got to have some dogs that are better than others and generally strike more hogs than the others. SO what if one dog strikes a hog over another hunting dog and them dogs then go to the bay TO help him are they HELP DOGS? Are would say no there just not as good nosed of a dog as the other although there still hunting. But they still hunt! Just not as good nosed or not as hard of a hunter. I have been with lots of people hunting and everyone has a BEST dog. HE generally strikes the hog although all the dogs are hunting. But in the end THey are all at the hog that he found. They came to his hog that he found over all the other dog. They came to HElP him with his hog. Are they help dogs? Not to me just not as good of a dogs or CULL? They would not be to me. Just not as good of a dog. This is all just my opinion.

What it basically boils down to for me is, does the dog consistently produce hogs? If I take a dog hunting and he can consistently produce hogs in some way shape or form by himself then I will feed him..  ;)

Some good responses. Which brings me to another perspective on it. I don't "breed" for help dogs, they are what they are, dogs pick the job they want to do and to what degree they perform, and I have only a few that are what I call help dogs, I have "alot" of dogs. When I have a one or two certain dogs on the ground all the other dogs jobs are going to be "help" because if they out work or strike those certain dogs, I will be surprised. However my Buzz dog is only brought along as a "help" dog job in mind, and those few times he out struck the others I was definately surprised.
I will say with confidence, that Buzz is not a whole package kind of dog, as with most all dogs they will excell in certain areas better than others, I know if I took just this dog and hunted him, I would have to change the way I hunted, I would have to make the wind direction my number one priority, and pay close attention that when he started throwing his head up to shut it down and give him some time and he can find and bay and might catch it too. I have had this dog break off from a pack of hogs on his own and stop and bay it, I watched without a catch dog, I alone tried talking him into catching the big sow, she would break and he would hit her in the ham and she would bay a few more minutes, and again break, I was trying to keep up and when she went up over the ridge with him dragging, I went to the to p as a fast as I could as he was baying again. Then when she madea  mad dash he hit her a few more times and she did not stop she was in open pasture and headed for the river. The next time He hit another gear and grabbed her ear and MADE her stop, as he did not let go, SDhe was caught and under control, all out in wide open, luckily one of the guys on horseback got there before me out of breath could. The sow went over 200lbs on the scale. So some might call him a running catch, and at times that is what he does "catch" but other times he will bay, so He does not qualify as a real catch dog.
The whole Running catch thing is another subject that has way too many definitions, and can get heated in a hurry also.
Here is the thing, this dog does not go to a bay and break a hog, where  as many other dogs that are this gritty are known to do. I can't remember not one time that this dog made it to a bay or was at a bay from the start where a hog got away. I know there are several times he has not got all the way there and it broke and we did not catch a hog. There was several pages of discussion awhile back about dogs that "shut them down" or "make them bay" alot of good points made and discussed.There is a fine line between a dog that is gritty/rough and one that will break a bay or push a hog. I am not saying this dog does any of that but my experience tells me, that so far this dog makes it to the bay, he is going to help hold the bay until I can get a read deal catch dog to him.
He does not qualify as a strike dog, can't really call him a catch dog, not sure he will bay, so the term Bay dog is out, but consistantly he "helps" get the hog to its final destination, which is "Caught", therefore I feel HELP DOG is the best label for this particular dog.
 I feed him and will continue to use his retarded acting self as long as I can. I have had several that were over the top rough, and this one has a certain finesse, that makes me appreciate him, when others similiar I would not keep on my yard. I have no intentions of breeding this dog, although he has sired one accidenatl litter, I kept one of the pups  for myself and he is not yet a year old but already finding hogs in the training pen, but not confident enough to stay with one when it breaks, we will see how he does with some more age, if he takes after his daddy I will most likely keep him on as a replacement for his daddy, But I do not actively go out seeking dogs with this talents, when they turn up and they suit me they have a home with job security.

Sounds like you have yourself a good help dog there. :)

I Have 3 help dogs right now but thay are young and I do not want them to be just help dogs. I keep taking them hoping they will be good dogs to me one day. I am the type that I don't want another dog going into a bay if other dog or dogs already have it bayed. All i have ever saw from this is a busted bay. To me if a dog has it bayed they don't need any help. Just something to catch it.

 My definition of a good me too dog is a dog that runs with the strike dogs and is rougher than a rough/gritty strike dog but is not a running catch dog. This dog will keep the hog from breaking or from running too far because he will shut it down. Most of the time this dog will not make a good strike dog but is an asset to the pack because this dog is a major contributer when it comes to stopping and catching hogs.

I always here this. If one of my dogs have a hog bayed i dont want another bay dog to go to it cause all it does is cause a busted bay. Are they telling me that when they have 4 to 5 dogs on the ground they all find the same hog at the exact same time? Cause how in the heck if you got dogs running on the ground can you prevent a bay dog from going to another dogs bay. It sounds to me if that is the theory or fact then you better just run one bay dog. Im not saying i no this or anything cause that is not my way of hunting, If my one strike dog dont catch with the help of the second one they are catching. Its no more playing when another dog arrives. Thats why i dont no what its like to have another dog go in and then both bay.