EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

When Ricky Driver snuk Blondie in to that ranch in Huntsville and bred her to Big Boy, he had no idea what he was about to set in motion. No other cross of any breed can claim as long a line of top dogs as this cross. He only let Blondie raise three pups. Leroy, the male was only bred once and the female Jenny was bred three times. Ben Jordan, James Camp, Clue Anderson, John Gay, Randy Wright, Skoal and myself's dogs all go back to that cross. There are many more out there. All we can take credit for, is keeping the blood line bred and trying to keep it like we got it. These men could own about anything out there, but this blood is the best they could come up with. If anyone deserves the credit, it has to be Ricky.

Ha Who owned Big Boy? How was he bred? When was this?

In trying to make a long story short, I failed to say, he was told when to bring the female and what gate to go to. they didn't won't anyone to know they bred an outside female for someone. They didn't wont to make a habbit of it. This was back when good blood was closely garded.

okay, sorry I read it wrong and remove my previous statement. I have heard good things about some of those dogs, and would love to hear more details about the years invested in preserving the lines that are still being used today.

Ricky never would say. He told some people that Big Boy was a prison dog. I talked to Chance Ward about it and he asked his uncle. This is what we came up with. A man named Bill Bay worked cattle for the prison and ran cattle on some prison land and owned a dog named Big Boy. Chances uncle said he was a Woodruff dog. Chances dogs also go back to some Woodruff dogs. Ricky made this cross about 1975.

I personally know Bill Bay, an elderly man who lives in Madisonville.  He leases a big place that joins a place I have permission to hunt and he gives me permission to hunt it.  He runs cattle all over that part of the world.  Wonder if it is the same Bill Bay??
Matt

Yeah I have heard of Bill Bay. I think my dad knows him. I have hunted the Woodruff Ranch with Jean Stokes and Curtis Bennett sever times. Hell of a ranch. What color was Big Boy? Was he a yellow dog? I guess this is before the black curs were developed around that area? Thanks for the info.

Very interesting bigo! My hats off to all of you men for keeping a blood line like that bred and keeping it like you got it. Thats a hell of a big credit in my book!

Bigo,

If you don't mind post on here why this was a great cross and what this line of dogs were known for.

Thanks

 ;D

X2......this is very interesting to me, guys I'm from Alabama,....not much info on Texas dogs floating around here. Sorry that I'm so far behind the curve on this, but I ain't gonna learn it any sooner. Thanks

Ya I'm interested in Big Boy too.. Yellow dog or out of the black stock woodruff?? I've got 11 pups on ground now that go back to woodruff dogs! And I agree, hands down the best dogs I've seen and ever heard of.. That line is natural

BigO....I'm sure I have told you this allready but I know of a dog from that area called Bigboy back in that timeframe or a little earlier (the 50's).  If it was around 75' when that happened then the time frame would be off for it to be the same dog.  But you know how things like that go.  Sometimes I can't even remember what year the dogs I currently have were born.  I can't imagine trying to remember something that happened 40-50 years ago.  There could be +/- 10 years error in the memories of one or both stories and if thats the case it could be plausable.  Then again its probly totally different dogs.  I do know that the family who this particular Big boy dog belonged would fit right in your story when it comes to the part where, like you said, the good stock was kept closely guarded.

Waylon

I think it is important to consider, there are untold numbers of people out there who have bred, hunted, use and own good dogs of all breeds who have never signed on a computer. They are people most have never heard of much less know their stories or history. I think there is much of the history of different dogs lost forever.
I know this is true with at least the line East Texas line of Blackmouth cur stock dogs that Bob’s speaks of. I have heard it said these type of dogs and the people who have had them for years, revolves around a “ culture”, or a type of person. I believe that to be true. In my view that is why it has been a dieing breed, that culture is dieing.

The line bred dogs that Bob speak of I can only say this: If I could have found in the last 30 years or do find, a better line of dogs when the tail gate drops I would own em and it wouldn’t matter to me what color or physical characteristics that came with em. I am not talking about one or two dogs, I am talking a family of dogs that have it and produce with consistency the traits and characteristics necessary for the job. I think you will find every individual who has raised, owns, hunts and used this line-bred line of dogs all these years feel exactly the same way. These dogs are a tool to many of these guys, you can bet if a better tool was out there and they knew it, they’d own it.    
 I am not talking internet talk, For one example, I am talking drop the gate, send em, expect them to go find, bay and pen cattle and hogs in 80,000 acres of free ranging rough country with no fences and they have done it for 30 years, generation after generation. I will guarantee you, that takes a dog most have never even seen. That man is still alive and works cattle every day. He was a world champion cowboy back in the 50’s. Some may find it odd that not a dog one that man owns was ever been registered. He will tell you right quick. “ They can’t read”. But you could bet the farm, he knew what they are and they are bred straight and right.
 Since that Ricky Driver breeding, all of this hasn’t been an accident. It is due to the efforts of those kind of dedicated men doing and breeding as they have. These line breed dogs continue to produce those kinds of dogs today. These guys aren’t puppy mills, dog peddlers or promoters, they are dog men.
Bob didn’t say this but I will. The only time Leroy was bred was to Liz, a gyp owned by Bob’s dad. Funny story about that was: Bob was trying to breed Liz to a dog he had. The dog wouldn’t breed her so Bob talked his dad into letting him take Liz down To Ricky’s and breed to Leroy. I wish I had known then what I know now standing there looking at a wad of yellar pups and listening to my father in law talk about them. I had no idea what I was looking at. At least two of the pups in that litter along with Jenny (Leroy’s littermate) became the foundation of it all, Bob’s “Punch” dog and Ben Jordan’s Henry dog.  

Is any of this to say they don’t get culls? Nope, you could bury a 40 ft trailer in that hole over the years of the dogs that didn’t meet the grade for one reason or another. I have only heard of one line of East Texas BMC dogs where the promoter makes the claim of no culls. In fact I know of only one line of ETBMC dogs that have been heavily promoted and advertised period. I will let you decide why he did that. In my view it is a shame he didn’t line breed because he started with a well-bred dog. Most of them I see today are culls in my opinion.
I personally know of no other breeding  anywhere that produced like that for that many years and continues to produce to this day. I doubt Ricky knew what the results would be. The one thing I know he knew was a good dog and good bred dog. He was a good cowboy and dog man with his own 40’ hole in his back yard...    

skoalbandett,

You and Bob should write a dang book and I aint kidding! It would be a great read to start with but more importantly, a needed record of history, and a valuable source of information!...........Don’t make me beg cause I will!

X2... I enjoy reading you and Bob's posts about the history of those dogs.

 They really should write a book, they are a wealth of knowledge on cur dogs and other breeds as well. I enjoy hearing everything these fellas have to say about dogs and you can take it to the bank that its all true.

  Thanks guys but I couldn't write a book of any kind. lol .. I sure don’t have the skills to do that.
 I have asked Bob to write a book for several years now. He is a good honest man full of knowledge and many years of experience with these dogs. He’s know many of the key players and he’s watched many a deal go down over the last 50 years.. It isn’t likely he'd ever do that. For one thing He knows if ya tell the truth you are gona make some enemies and make some others defensive as blue blazes. He aint about that or peein in someone’s cheerios.
It would be interesting if someone tried in earnest to do that some day. A history book will be hard to write though. To start off with, the truth is nobody knows where they came from, when or what made them. All ya got there is opinions. Further complicating the deal is the fact these different lines of BMC dogs can be so different they might as well be different breeds. That’s a pretty rough start to the book to write the factual history of a breed.
I think any body deciding to do that would need to visit with lots of old timers to write a book like that. Might ought to carry his lie detector machine with him if the truth matters.     Some you'd get the straight scoop as best they know it, some others have questionable motives.
I don’t think a book should be written without including the thoughts and knowledge of some of the young guys who I think are on the right track and doing a good job with ETBMC dogs. Young guys like Chance. From what I know and see, I think he is the rare breed out there today when it comes young guys. He is of the “culture,” goes about it right and is dedicated and serious about what he is doing.  He is the kind of young man the future of these dogs depends upon. My hats off to him

Meanwhile, think I will just to my best write a story or two once in a while when something interest me... lol

One thing about a good book is that 50 years from now it becomes the bible as to where the dogs came from and who did it. Sometimes it seems like the real person behind a great line of dogs is in the background and doesn't get the credit they deserve. That old saying  "The Pen is Mightier Than the Sword" is so true. The book needs to be as accurate as possible and not biased.

It is obvious that these breeders you are talking about created a breed within a breed because people still remember these dogs...We need more breeders like that right now....

Skoalbandett, I appreciate you elaborating on this subject for those of us that are fairly ignorant of the details of these ETBMC dogs. I'm in awe of any dog breed or line within that breed that is outstanding in their ability to do their given job. I've hunted with dogs since I was a kid and hearing this story from you was quite enjoyable for me. I would certainly love to see any book that you and your friends could come up with......I'd be one of the first to buy a copy. Please feel free to expound on any of these topics that you feel lead to.....I, and I'm sure many, many of the hunters on here are all ears.....once again, thank you very much.

That’s an interesting thought about creating a breed Reuben. I can understand how someone might come to that conclusions but I respectfully don’t think it’s an accurate statement.
 None of none these guys created these dogs, meaning the East Texas Black Mouth Cur dog. We got em from the get go like they are. Yes, over the last 40 or 50 years through careful selective breeding, proving and culling some of these guys have maintained they as they were and hopefully improved performance in them in ways, but none of us that have them created them. We cannot take credit for that, men long before us deserve credit or are responsible for that. In fact if you had talked to old timers 30 or 40 years ago who were 80 years old then, you’d find they couldn’t take the credit for these dogs either. They only carried on with them and many of them did the same things we are doing today.

To the feller that I received an email from that is thinking about writing a book. This may be a good place to start.

With the 4 or 5 different lines of BMC dogs still around today, I don’t think you can write a single history of the BMC dog. I think it would have to be 4 or 5 different books all within one binder. Each different major line of dogs has a different history, different people and different story.  My advice is to talk with as many major breeders and men using each line of dogs as possible. (Remember to take your FBI lie detector machine with ya..lol)
The current different lines I am talking about are:
L. H. Ladner line.
Howard Carnathan Line.
J. D. Howard Line.
East Texas BMC line.
Art Lee line. (I think he deserves it. He is the only man to breed and show a BMC world champion tree dog in OPEN competition at the world hunts. He is number one man in the number of BMC dogs qualifying to be hunted in the open world hunts)
 
I left Weatherford Ben lines off the list because if it weren’t for the ETBMC line, specifically the Leroy x Liz cross mentioned here, Weatherford Ben would not exist. His story can be told under the ETBMC section.
I left Mr. James Lee from Mississippi off because I only know of 3 dogs of his breeding left alive today. He basically quit breeding years ago. This man had a monster impact on BMC dogs for years, but it a well kept secret by those that benefited from it. A friend of mine has a tape recording and written notes from him we got when we made a visit to him before he died several years back that should be included in the book. Same for Mike Lott, he has a big impact for several years down in Mississippi but no longer breeds dogs. Some of Mike’s accomplishments and part of his story could be told in the Art Lee section. 

Might as well throw in the Cat Cur(Leopard) and Cracker Cur dogs as well since they also have long history on Cows and hogs and make it a Working Cur History.  Cary Lightsey(Lightsey Cattle Company in Florida) would be a good guy to speak with about the Cracker Cur history.

Yes Sir Mr. bulldogger the list would get much longer if cur dogs outside the Black Mouth Cur were included in that history Book. It would take many more chapters I am sure.  

Thanks Firemedic.. I am thankkful you enjoy it.

I left a name out of Black Mouth cur folks that would be a good one to talk to.

Dr. Charles Long
Professor and Resident Director, Animal Breeding & genetics
Texas A& M College of Agriculture and Life Science at the research center in Overton.
Dr Long worked with Dr. Harrison who bred many a blackmouth cur dog. Dr. Long also breeds some Black Mouth cur dogs.