EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Not really but it made you look.

    Alot of hunters spend ALOT of money and time into a deer lease. Say you spend 2k per gun and then add up the corn,feeders,stands and time. Before you know it it are 3-5k into it. Just because it illegal doesnt mean it wont happen. If a hunter is sitting in his stand watching some deer feed and a dog runs out causeing the deer to flee. They are going to be up set. I sure would be. I wouldnt shoot a dog but I would do my best to catch it and have a talk with the owner. The 2nd time the dog would be handed off to the animal people if it was the same dog.
     If deer hunters are in the woods then why hunt a place next door? Doe and spike season is still on and MLD is open to the end of Feb. A landowner has all rights to shoot a dog that is bayed on a hog, right or wrong it is in that dumb law they passed last year. I understand that dogs cross fences, it is up to us as the dog's owner to not put them next to a fence while deer hunters are out.
  Just because it is agenst the law to shoot a dog running a deer doesnt mean that it wont happen because it happens. You would be suprised at the comments made on a hunting site that I go to alot about dogs at feeders. If your dog ran in front of them while on stand they would let an arrow loose.
   Dont rely on the law to protect your dogs, remember that deer hunters are still out.

I shot a dog at my deer feeder............ you aint right...lol made me look. ;D muzzle season is over next weekend where i hunt and i cant wait...

I don't want my dogs around guns and do not run them during the day during deer season. I would like to know what legislation that lets someone shoot a dog baying a hog. I will be in my State Rep's office tomorrow if it is true but I need facts. I will be meeting with my State Rep within a few weeks so please let me know about the law.

the g w were i live said it is a felony to shoot a dog, just hunt at night its better theres no bull number 2 out there after mid night

The precedence for this was set by Bueckner v. Hamel in 1994, http://www.animallaw.info/cases/caustx886sw2d368.htm. "Texas law allows persons to kill without liability dogs that are attacking domestic animals. However, the attack must be in progress, imminent, or recent. This defense does not apply to the killing of dogs that were chasing deer or non-domestic animals.

   This past year(cant find the law right now) that made hogs the property of the owner of the land where they are. Does that make sense?

If I had 5 grand in a lease that means I'm huntin horns.Someones dog is goin to the bone pile and QUOTE ME!

It is illegal to shoot a dog for baying a hog. Baying is not damaging to livestock.  I have paid 3-4k a year and not shot dogs when they ran by and when I was paying all that money the biggest problem I had was the cow man feeding his cows while we were there hunting. Driving right in front of the stand that he knew you were in etc. I don't think I know of a good reason to ever shoot a dog that is baying livestock or wild game for that matter. Unless the dog is actively trying to hurt/kill family or livestock the gun is going to stay on safety.

The rights to private ownership and use of animals differs depending on whether the animal is considered to be wildlife or livestock. As both feral hogs and Russian Boars are considered to be livestock in Texas, their ownership is generally assumed to belong (de facto) to the private citizens who control the land that they inhabit (Texas Legal Code, 1993). Differing opinions of ownership for the hogs results in management conflicts; these may be both inter- and intra-managerial among production units.
http://agrilife.org/texnatwildlife/feral-hogs/economics-and-human-interactions-of-the-wild-hog-in-texas/

   Best I could find right now. I remember someone(maybe Silverton) posting about how wild hogs now belong to the land they are on. If so a landowner can protect the hogs on his property. Curs baying and biting at the hog would be considered attacking to most people. Wish I could find that post.

That is the case? You need to read it again. Wild pigs are not domestic animals. It clearly says domestic animals can be protected. Therefore if someone shoots a dog baying a pig will face criminal charges and civil damages. Go read the case. The shooter was charged and convicted of cruelty to animals and lost in in the civil case you cited.

If I from east TX whom never sees deer pays that and a trophy of a lifetime was about to be taken and a dog just ran him off,well I really probably would not shoot.And I mean 170 class!But someones ass may get whipped bottom line and I may have a new strike dog!

This guy shot the dog over a deer and lost in every way. Learn to read cases.

I just want to know when I can send the bill to my neighbor for allowing his hogs to come plow my hay field in the last few weeks!  I find it hard to understand how the land owner is responsible for an animal that you cannot contain. I think they should have thought longer on the classification.

AMEN!

Oh, that was an appeal wanting the amount ordered to be paid in criminal court to reduce the amount of the judgment in civil court and the amount was not reduced. You will see the hunter was ordered to pay actual damages and punitive damages. That means he was punished in criminal court and by the civil court. $1,450 actual damages and $2,500 punitive damages that is $3,940 just in civil court plus the $375 from criminal court. The dog owner got $4,315, The hunter also had to pay criminal fees plus attorney fees. Shooting dogs is expensive. This also shows that if someone shoots your dogs you should go after them in court. It sends a strong message!

Wait! $4,315!!!! I have some dogs I should run during deer season! Shoot away sucker!!

 That was the case posted to get deer hunters to not shot a dog. Not the one I was looking for that shows hogs can belong to landowner. Done looking for tonight. I am sure someone will read this in the morning and post the law I was looking for.
 Matt- I agree. Dumb law and your point was brought up many times.

My understanding is that feral hogs in Texas are classified as exotic livestock. And in Texas exotic livestock belong to the owner whose land they occupy, unless tagged or branded. I think it is the states way of not dealing with the damage caused by hogs....
I don't agree with shooting dogs for messing up a hunt, nor do I agree with hog doggers running in deer season bitching when their dogs get shot... both side need to show some respect to fellow hunters

Thanks Chris I'm just a lil bit more on the raw side but thats where I was tryin to head.

Good post Matt

I don't blame someone for being upset when a dog or other interuption ruins a deer hunt.  But Deer lease money only gets a person deer hunting rights.  It does not entitle a person exclusive rights to all activities on the property during deer season.  No matter how much money you pay.  If during deer season, the land owner wants to let his brother hunt squirls with squirl dogs, pen his cows with cow dogs, or kills some hogs with hog dogs, or drive by my stand to feed his cows then he has every right to do so.  He even has the right to shoot a deer.  After all, it is his property and unless a lease specifies exclusive deer hunting rights, the leasee does not have them.  So I don't see any reason to btch about it.  If you don't like to spend that kind of money then keep it in your pocket.  Most land owners think of deer lease hunters as a dime a dozen.  Its pretty easy to replace the ones that cause too much trouble.  That being said.  Its the responsibility of every party to get allong and show respect for each other.

Waylon

Yes hogs belong to the land owner. You must have land owners permission to remove them. But wild hogs are not domestic animals. Domestic animals are the only animals you can protect. The dog must be imminent threat to a domestic animal or a real person to kill the dog. If the farmer has domestic pigs and your dogs bay one then he can shoot them but not wild pigs. The pig is owned by the land owner it is currently on. So if your dogs start after a hog and the hog crosses a property line you have to call the dogs off. You can remove your dog but not the hog without the land owners permission. But it is not domestic. The difference about the hog belonging to the land owner is unlike deer. Deer belong to the State of Texas. If you build a high fence the State of Texas can go in and remove the deer. It happened recently. But the State of Texas can't go on your property and remove wild hogs. So you can fence and raise the best wild hogs all day long and the state treats them as property but if they cross the fence too bad.

Dub, you missed the point. A landowner or its agent can protect exotic livestock. If the neighbors dog gets on our ranch and goes after the axis .......... hog is the same thing.

If the axis jumps a fence does it belong to your neighbor?

My understanding is that an unmarked axis belongs to the landowner(whose land it is currently on), just like any other exotic animal, including hogs.

yes sir, if my axis jumps the fence on to your land, it is now your axis until it comes back.  unfortunately, that means just like a landowner could shoot a dog for baying an axis, he can shoot one for baying a hog since they are now classified the same. 

that site is horrible about dogs.  I've got a running list at home of the guys i see on there that talk about dog shooting all the time.  I can't wait until one of them calls me to track a deer so i can tell him I don't track for dog shooters.

I like this quote...........

I will be in contact with my State Rep for other stuff. I will ask him to have is office look into it.

 I have never shot a dog for treaspassing on our property. I see dogs cross our pasture all of the time. But I have shot dogs for chasing my horses, coming on our property and growling, and also dogs that come up to our house and are starving and covered in mange because its the humane thing to do. While Ive never had a dog chase a deer while i was deer hunting. If it ever happend, I think that I would try to catch the dog and file a law suit against the owner of the dog for any expenses that I feel the dog caused, including the cost of my deer lease because while accidents happen, the dog owner in my oppinion is being negligent. I don't ever want someone to shoot one of my dogs, but they are MY REPSONSIBILITY and it is my job as a dog owner to make sure that they never get in a situation to be shot.

This topic is touchy and I can see both sides. IMO If a deer hunter shoots your dog; do what you got to do as the deer hunter has already did what they felt they needed to do. Both sides need to think about the implications and consequences of their actions and be prepared to deal with them. No point in talking / typing about it.

If a dog bay's a hog under my deer stand I am going to get down and catch the hog!LOL

amen!

 yaw have all touched on leases and private land. what about public land? i agree with not running dogs during daylight hrs for the respect of deer hunters during the season, but i dont have a wart on my butt the drips gold and cant afford to pay 2k+ for a lease to shoot the legal limit of deer when some public land offers the same quality of deer unless the landowner is power feeding the deer. since the state says feral hogs are an exotic and belong to the owner of land where the hog is residing, then what about corp land? in the law then the hogs would belong to the federal government since COE is federal, but lets say corp land belongs to the state, does the state now own the hogs? why is it we look at dogs as less human, when they feel pain, ecitement, sadness, depression and most feelings we as humans feel, they just speak a different language just like people from other countries? a person who shoots a man/woman's dogs should be held to smae standards as shooting a human b/c of the time and money the owner has in the dog, its the same with kids. how much do we spend on our children? my dogs are my kids since my son doesnt live with me, but i still support my son in more than just child support. we spend to much money on both kids and dogs to have some trigger happy/pissed hunter to shoot them out of dispite or b/c he/she didnt identify his target before releasing the bullet. 

Chris's replies are correct. Feral hogs are exotic livestock and they do belong to whoever owns the land they are standing on, provided they are not tagged or branded. A land owner may shoot a dog that is attacking, has attacked or is about to attack exotic livestock. I would assume that a dog bayed on a hog would meet the "attack' threshold. A caught hog would definitely meat the threshold.

A land owner or leasehold may not shoot a dog for trespass or running or disturbing deer, but they will. We as dog hunters have got to protect our dogs by not putting them into a situation where they can be put in harms way. Its very bad PR for hog doggers to have dogs running through land that we do not have permission to hunt.

This is one of the main reasons we lost the dog hunting in SHNF (hog dogs being run in the forest during deer season). Also deer dogs have just been banned from Kisatchie National Forest (Louisiana), one of the main reasons for the desision was because of deer dogs running on to private property and negatively impacting the use of the Forrest by other users. We as dog hunters have got to make sure that we keep our dogs on the property we have permission to hunt.

Thanks,
Paul T

Charles, we don't want dogs to have rights. That is the top of a slippery slope.

Here is another scenario and is really the way it goes. My friend calls me and tells me to load my dogs; there are hogs in his hay field. So we get there, turn dogs out, hit a hog that runs four fences south onto another property. Now does that hog belong to that land owner or the one where we started the hog??? Same scenario with one of his cows, which can and does happen, does the cow now belong to the other guy???  If your cow gets out and causes property damage you are liable!!!!!!
 Land owners need to look at the avantages of having us hog hunters !!!!!!

Each time a feral hog crosses a property line it changes ownership. A branded/ tagged cow never changes ownership, a cow is livestock and different laws apply.

 Im not saying dogs should have rights, but we spend a lot time and money on them, the crime for killing/shooting 1's dog should hold the same as shooting humans. Go shoot or assult a police dog, you will be arrested for assulting/ killing a police officer. Its the smae thing as our dogs. police dogs aint no better than our dogs.

Sam Houston National Forrest DO NOT ALLOW ANY HOG DOGS ANYMORE, as are some of the other public lands, and more are adding to the list of NO HOG DOGS AT ALL

My point is that the hog came from the other guys property to damage his hay field ,when we put dogs on the hog it’s going to run home . I know the laws but this needs to be changed so the people with hog problems can actually do something about it. I don’t know of any one with dogs that won’t cross fences and can be called off  quick enough to prevent them from crossing in to other property. 

Just brand or eartag em all before you release them.  ;D

In a situation like this you need to get permission to hunt the properties that the hogs might be crossing. The landowner with the depridation problem should be able to assist you with this if he knows all the surrounding land owners. It would be prudent to get either hunting permission or retrieval rights on all properties that your dogs could end up on.

its always happened and its going to keep happening if you turn your dogs loose especially during deer season in the daylight hours on a place thats small enough that you know your dog might end up crossing a fence then you are taking a chance that your dog might get shot point blank thats the way it is so if you dont wont that to happen dont turn them loose.   

texasbowhunter has the most dog killers of any site i have ever been on, lol I offered a $1000 reward for anybody killing any dog on our ranches and burying it.  Its a shame this attitude exists, wish it go away but too many city peeps in the country hunting now days just dont get it.

I'm confused ??? ??? ???
I thought hunting was supposed to be an enjoyable, fun, memory making experiance..... All I ever hear from "hard-core" deer hunters is whine whine whine.... The dogs are messing my hunt up, the hogs are messing my hunt up, the hogs tore my feeder up, the land-owner drove by, the winds blowing :'( :'( :'(. I mean, every excuse in the book to why they didnt get that buck AGAIN this year. Reminds of me of the "hard-core" golfers.

If you have a problem with hog doggers then take it up with them, not the dogs that are out there simply doing what we ask them to do. Seems to me like the mean kid that likes to poke sticks at innocent animals never actually grew up. How can you have so much hate that you would shoot an innocent dog for walking through your hunting area?

I can understand shooting a dog for running someone's livestock, farm animals, or trying to hurt a person. But just because you were sitting in the stand and he walked by??? CMON!
Just my two cents, and I couldnt imagine how I would react to one of my dogs getting shot by someone in a stand. He and I just better hope we dont have to come to that one day.

I would like to add, that I would never dump out on a lease during deer season or close to where my dogs may cross a hunters path, but sometimes things just happen. 

 

 ;)

This is where I disagree for what they have done! Outlaws are outlaws! The same night hunting poachers that hunt deer in the SHNF Hunt them on private land also but they don't stop deer hunting in the SHNF! Look at the difference in people caught with Illegal deer and dogs crossing fence's!Way more!
They need to start catching the bad rats and deal with them not punish the good ones!
All they hurt is the good one's because the bad one's are running the fire out of it and I know it for a fact!
I got sent 2 picture's on my phone just this week from 2 big hogs that got caught out of the forest!HMMM

   Your words- they are the problem. Turn the poachers in then. Become the solution.

What do you do if you report them! There is no proof! The picture's they can say they caught them anywhere!
 A warden can go talk to them and that is it do you really think they are going to say yea we were huntin there!

I know of a Buck that was reported that was shot at night in the forest and they told the gamewarden they killed him off there lease! The warden told them that he was going to keep his eye on them!
These guys have been reported many times but never caught as they can get back home before they can catch them! They also run no collars on there dogs!
We are alittle different here as subdivisions are all around the forrest!