EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

i am looking at one to buy and i was wondering if any of you guys have any and have been hunting with them and have noticed any advantages and or disadvantages....

Pup or older dog?  Tell me how it's bred, and I can probably provide you with a little more info on what to expect.  Are you getting the dog from a breeder, or someone that just has the dog for sale?

As far as advantages or disadvantages, I suppose it just depends on what your looking for.  Foundation dogs are an extremely versitile, extremely intelligent, and proven bloodline of dogs.  As quoted from Randy Wrights website, "We have dogs in 45 states, Canada, and Mexico, being used on stock, big game, predator, varmints, blood tracking, search and rescue on humans, decoying, trap lines, farm and ranch and protection, family dogs and so much more."

I have several myself, and there are other board members here that hunt them as well.

My buddy has to pups out of that bloodline and they are the hardest hunting dogs I've ever seen st that age. Great intelligent dogs.

I've got two dogs out of the ben line, I like them, they have a good handle, they hunt hard, and have a lot of bottom.

I've had papered weatherford ben, ladner and carnathan blackmouth curs.  All three were medium range dogs that hunted hard and bayed.  The ladner was open on track but hunted the hardest.  The carnathan was a nice red blackmouth out of his lightfoot male, a real nice dog that I wished I never sold.  The ben female I liked the least but I don't believe she was a good representation of the breed. Test them out first.  You can't hunt papers.

The ladner dogs were originally bred as tree dogs, and as such are much more likely to be open mouth dogs.

I got some of the pups out of Matts TaterxBrandy litter and they have all performed 100% for their age only eight months old and shining bright.  I researched some on the Ben bloodline before finding some dogs to work with and when Matt had these pups for sale i jumped on them.  I would like to find a female in the future with more of the Ben blood in her and hopefully get some good dogs going. 

Bryant how many Ben dogs do you have?  Do you know of anyone who has these dogs and breeds them with consistancy for working ability?  I would like to look into them some more myself.  Thanks

Shylar,

I have three...two older males and a gyp that just turned a year.  The gyp is hunting out better than any dog I've started, but doesn't have the intensity on a bay I would like to see quite yet.  Funny thing is, she will eat a hog up the few times I've had her in a pen.

I was talking with Randy the other night and telling him about her and what he told me made good sense.  He said, "Bryant, what you have to remember is that these dogs are highly intelligent.  She works harder in a pen because your right there with her and she knows that what she's doing is pleasing to you.  When in the woods, she's on her own and experience and confidence will get her to where she needs to be.  If she's hunting, running with the older dogs, and showing independance your 75% there."

As far as breeders, I know several here in Texas.  You can start with Randy Wright (who actually had Ben and was the first to linebreed his genetics) and work from there.  If you would like contact info, send me a PM.

          who bred weatherford ben?

i beleive w. ben came from ben jordan in eastern ok.

Heres a good little writeup on him

                 Weatherford's Ben

Owned by: Randy Wright

Weatherford's Ben world champion hog catch dog, world champ cow dog, world bench champion, hall of famer, to date has
produced the only world champion other than himself. Has produced many other hall of fame dogs and is the nations
number one all time producing stud dog for this breed. Of the top ten stud dogs of record most carry Ben genetics, some are
sons, some are grand sons, and one is even a great grand son. As a matter of fact there is only one top ten stud dog not
carrying the Ben genetics.  In Randy Wright's humble opinion Ben was the best cow dog he ever saw until his son Wright's
Bounty Hunter got old enough to show his stuff. Hunter works identical to Ben in that he is a rock solid catch dog that even
hard core bulldog men can admire, and have. LOL A cold nosed wide hunter that proved he would rather pass out baying
cattle right next to water than look out for a drink an leave his work. Now that's desire folks and it don't come easy you gotta
have it in the genes so you better start with it right up front or your playing catch up. Ben was 65 pounds in working shape,
produced heart, intelligence, drive and desire. Bred by Mike Bauman in Oklahoma Ben was fawn yellow, black nosed, long
legged, deep wide chested, high tight flank, long body. Was known to have been placed on a 24 hour old track of some rank
Braford brush cattle which he then trailed 6 miles or so bayed, an settled to be penned. Ben was known to have a slobbering
glaze eyed focus on a bay, really worked a front end lead but had the intelligence listen, and so do his pups given the right stimulation an training.  This ain't a flaming advertisement just some truths about an out standing line of working dogs and what kind of things you can expect when you make a move towards the Foundation Blackmouth Cur for a working breed. There were 40 + litters off Ben all turned out to be above average for the most part, he has pups in 43 states, doing a wide range of different tasks showing the breeds
versatility, there are 18 different breeding programs using this blood in the states an one in Canada, most are stock
working or professional hunters. Folks, facts just can't lie!

(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii193/ShylarB/Ben1-343x506.jpg)

http://www.blackmouthcur.com/pedigrees.htm#Bullet

Ben was bred by a guy named Mike Bauman in Oklahoma.  The sire and dam were "Bauman's Ben" & "Bauman's Bonnie".  The sire to Bauman's Ben was "Jordans Henry"...thats the Jordan connection.

Here's a link to Randy Wrights website.  Not much there, but he mainly put it up due to requests to see pics of his Foundation dogs.

http://www.wrightscurs.com (http://www.wrightscurs.com)

Here's a couple more pics of Weatherford's Ben that Randy had sent me quite a while back.

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee138/bdavis1476/Dogs/weatherfordsben.jpg)

i stand corrected, he was descended from some of ben jordans stock

 so Mike Bauman bred weatherford Ben out of his dogs that were bred by Jordan,Johnson,and Nutting.got it! thanks ya'll.

    are these guys on too they got some good looking dogs

Just for kicks...here's a couple more websites which have info on Foundation Bred dogs.

http://members.tripod.com/tlscurs/ (http://members.tripod.com/tlscurs/)

http://www.yellowblackmouth.com/index.htm (http://www.yellowblackmouth.com/index.htm)

http://social.southrivercurs.com/ (http://social.southrivercurs.com/)

http://www.blackmouthcur.com/high_on_the_hog_kennel.htm (http://www.blackmouthcur.com/high_on_the_hog_kennel.htm)

http://www.bayheadkennels.com (http://www.bayheadkennels.com)

http://www.blackmouthcur.com/Hog%20Island%20Kennel.htm (http://www.blackmouthcur.com/Hog%20Island%20Kennel.htm)

http://www.blackmouthcur.com/Big%20sky%20kennel.htm (http://www.blackmouthcur.com/Big%20sky%20kennel.htm)

http://www.blackmouthcur.com/Snow%20Hill%20Kennel.htm (http://www.blackmouthcur.com/Snow%20Hill%20Kennel.htm)

http://www.blackmouthcurcowdogs.com (http://www.blackmouthcurcowdogs.com)

        thanks i thought black mouth curs had black on there mouth these dogs look like all yellow dogs and i saw some dogs with cut tails is that for working cows or something

Both light and dark mask, lined eyes and lips...doesn't make a difference and a single typical litter can include both.

Tails aren't docked, but natural bobbed tails were heavily bred into the foundation genetics.  Both tailed and bobbed dogs can and will appear in same litter.

the lighter masks and pink noses are due to tight breeding , short or bob tails you wont find in southern bmc s

                                                                     bryant do you know whewre a guy can look up pedigrees ?

The bobbed tails were pretty much only bred into the Foundation dogs.  The theory is that a bob-tailed dog which never learned to rely on the tail for balance makes for a quicker, more agile dog.

There is no place to view pedigrees other than some individual websites that have them posted of their own stock.  If you have a question about a specific dog, give Randy a call.  Most likely, he will know off the top of his head and if not he has access to the registry.

thanks bryant, i agree on the bobbed tails ,i used to always dock my pups.  it seems it takes em less time to get their tale in gear that way.lol.    m,y point really was  ,  and its just my opinion from observation and conversation that the souythern bmc was bred more for treeing than some other bmc lines . i figure there is more hound in some of those lines  than in the straight cow bred lines. therefore they wont register em if they haveshort tails, thats just my figurin , but im not an expert.



                                                                                              y all know what they say bout ass ump tions

Bryant,
i'm confused about that how are natural bobtails bred into foundation genetics,was it from the parents before them,or at randy wrights breedings?






jdt,

      i had a dog that was a black mouth and it had pit in it and it had a pink nose.it was a red nose pit crossed over a BMC.





Bryant,
so cutting or bobbing the tail makes them a better dog?







jdt,

    they bred bob tail dogs in the foundation genetics but won't regesiter the bob tail dogs as weatherfords ben dogs or foundation dogs in the regestior





can anybody understand this,help please i'm really confused. ??? ???

Both my Ben dogs have bob tails...folks always ask me if they were born that way....

tusker, if i am correct,  the southern blackmouths have tohave long tails to be registered. that is a different registry than the ben dogs. lot of cowdogs tails are docked so they wont collect borrs , thorns , cactus spines and sling them into their sides . some dogs are born bobtail or half tailed.

I'm not really understanding what your asking in a couple of your questions, but let me explain this and hopefully it will help.  

When I refer to "Foundation Dogs", I'm referring to dogs that are registered with the "Foundation Black Mouth Cur Breeders Association, or FBMCBA".  This is only one of several registries that allow participation and registration of Black Mouth Curs.  Dogs carrying Weatherford Ben genetics are typically registered through FBMCBA although many are also double registered through other registeries.  When a registry is formed, certain criteria are established which can or may not be specific to that particular registry.  Some will recognize a certain expressed trait, while others might consider such trait a "fault".  FBMCBA dogs are not limited to one particular bloodline of dogs (Ben), and individual dogs can be registered but the criteria is very strick and only certain bloodlines might be considered.

Registries have somewhat gotten a bad rap over the years because of those people who simply believe that because they hold a paper on a dog, that the dog is automatically superior.  While to some extent this indeed may be true it is only because of the breeding behind the dog, not the paperwork.  Nothing is foolproof.  A registry really serves no purpose other than to provide lineage information....basically the same information that many people who have raised a particular bloodline of dogs may have jotted down somewhere or even in their head.  The advantage of the FBMCBA registry over some of the others, is that it is a small registry and most breeders know one another and for the most part breed for the same working standard.

Now, as far as the bob-tailed gene is concerned you're going WAY back, and honestly I'm not sure which dog originally introduced that into the breeding program.  I do know that several crosses seemed to prove to those breeding this trait that it was beneficial and therefore actually became a specifically bred trait.  I personally don't have enough experience to have an opinion one way or the other.  I'm working my first bob-tailed dog now that just came a year old and I will say that this dog is the quickest, most agile dog I've ever owned.  When she runs and moves, it almost appears her feet never touch the ground.  She can be running full speed in one direction, reverse her direction and be running full speed the other way almost in a flash.  The reason??...I would hate to speculate.

Personally, I've only been messing with and researching these dogs for about two years.  I stumbled on a dog by accident and was so impressed with this dog that I had to find out more.  This dog was two years old and had never been out of a residential backyard when I got him.  All it took was taking this dog to the woods, showing him that cows were NOT okay to mess with, and honestly within a month he was striking and baying hogs.

Hope this helps.

Here's a picture of the first hog my dog struck and bayed which was basically my first experience with this bloodline.  He's the dog on top, and I believe this was his third or fourth time ever in the woods.  When I saw the potential in this dog, I sent him down to Douglas Mason's because I wanted a BUNCH of hogs put in front of him REALLY fast.  Douglas was actually working the dog for me when this picture was taken.  A man from Houston hunting with Douglas that morning made him call me and wanted to buy the dog.  I still remember Douglas calling and saying, "I don't think you will...but I gave the man my word I would call."  The only thing I wish I could change, is that he's extremely rough, and tends to get cut more often that I would like.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee138/bdavis1476/Dogs/sam1.jpg)

Bryant,
Do you know who and why the Foundation registry was started? I cant seem to find much information about it. JT

good question gritty dog. id also like to know when he was born and when he died.( weatherfod ben )

      which brings me to this question?Who did Ben Jordan get his dogs from that all these great BMC's came from and from where?

well this is what mr ben told me. he was born in 31 , he married the youngest of 6 sisters from a well to do family . the older girls when married were given so many acres so many cows, hogs mules etc etc. by the time they got married times were tight  mr. jordan and his wife got 250 sows and a pair of cur dogs. ( he said he had to work for his ha ha )
             
                                  he gathered hogs by driving them to pens just like cattle until the 60 s when he said they started getting too much russian in em.  he was a prca pickup man for years.    he still has alot of dogs, in his mid 70 s he runs cattle on 62 square miles of land and does about all the work himself.

                                                  when my buddy was there lookin at dogs they bayed up a group of cattle, mr ben pointed at a cow and said " i aint seen that cow in 2 years, i thought she was dead" lol . his dogs for the most part are not as rough and are not as big and pretty  as the wright bred dogs, but they will hunt and they will stay bayed.

        at blackmouthcur.com is a good article about the origin of the cur

The foudation registry was started in 1991 and was originally formed with the strictest breed standards ever written or implied for any cur breed.  The goal of the registry as written was, '...to preserve, promote and protect the original Black Mouth Cur Breed."  I'm not sure who was the original founder.

Weatherford's Ben was born 10-1-1988.  I'd have to look back, as my mind is blank on date he died.  He was actually the 80th dog registered through FBMCBA.


Ben Jordan had an influence in Weatherford's Ben, but several other established bloodlines of dogs were used in the formation of the registry.  Red Burkhart's dogs as an example.

Since that time, several other established bloodlines have joined.  A couple of examples would be Butch Arnold who began breeding and working his own line of dogs for his personal use around 1956.

i have a 1 1/2 old gyp that came from Ben Jordan anyone know anything about them?

Weatherford's Ben world champion hog catch dog, world champ cow dog, world bench champion, hall of famer, to date has produced the only world champion other than himself. Has produced many other hall of fame dogs and is the nations number one all time producing stud dog for this breed. Of the top ten stud dogs of record most carry Ben genetics, some are sons, some are grand sons, and one is even a great grand son. As a matter of fact there is only one top ten stud dog not carrying the Ben genetics.  In Randy Wright's humble opinion Ben was the best cow dog he ever saw until his son Wright's Bounty Hunter got old enough to show his stuff. Hunter works identical to Ben in that he is a rock solid catch dog that even hard core bulldog men can admire, and have. LOL A cold nosed wide hunter that proved he would rather pass out baying cattle right next to water than look out for a drink an leave his work. Now that's desire folks and it don't come easy you gotta have it in the genes so you better start with it right up front or your playing catch up. Ben was 65 pounds in working shape, produced heart, intelligence, drive and desire. Bred by Mike Bauman in Oklahoma Ben was fawn yellow, black nosed, long legged, deep wide chested, high tight flank, long body. Was known to have been placed on a 24 hour old track of some rank Braford brush cattle which he then trailed 6 miles or so bayed, an settled to be penned. Ben was known to have a slobbering glaze eyed focus on a bay, really worked a front end lead but had the intelligence listen, and so do his pups given the right stimulation an training.  This ain't a flaming advertisement just some truths about an out standing line of working dogs and what kind of things you can expect when you make a move towards the Foundation Blackmouth Cur for a working breed. There were 40 + litters off Ben all turned out to be above average for the most part, he has pups in 43 states, doing a wide range of different tasks showing the breeds versatility, there are 18 different breeding programs using this blood in the states an one in Canada, most are stock working or professional hunters. Folks, facts just can't lie!


Just some info I found

yeah  ,   nothin is 100% . but if your buyin pups that line gives you a lot better odds . some of them are too ruff  , but i can always back a rough dog off easier than i can  make a chicken do something  he dont wan t to do .

can anyone tell me about the Ben jordan dogs???????

man...i went to wright's webpage.   

those have got to be some of the prettiest lookin BMC's i've seen.  good lookin dogs.

E-mail Clue Anderson @  ja@crosstel.net  he can tell ya all you want to know. Tell him I sent ya.

all of this is really fascinating.  i like looking at lines like this, nice to be able to talk to a breeder and know pretty damn close to exactly what you're gonna get out of a certain breeding.  instead of, well the momma and daddy both hunt good.  i mean no offense to anyone but i like to know a little more about em than that.

I bought a registered BMC pup in February that is double bred Weatherfords Ben I think he is something like 35% W. Ben or somethin like that....hope he makes a good dog...I can tell he is gonna be a big dog he is only 3 months old and towers over my other 2.5 month dogo pup and is about the same size as my buddy's 5 month old plott pup.

well i have not been hog hunting long but from my experience the BMC (weatherford ben bloodline) has been some of the best performaning dogs i have seen hunt thus far... weather its a BMC or a BMC crossed with something else
wish mine was still living he seemed to be a dern good intellegent dog before we had a little accident >R.I.P. RIVER<

I owned AJR Tyson for a while and was not impressed with his drive. He was a real dominant dog and spent more time on the ground trying to fight than hunting. In his defense I got him with some age...could of been his raising...I don't know.

i have a weatherford ben grandson that is 56% weatherford ben on 33 crosses.  he is a pink nose bmc.  he is coming on a year and has lots of drive.  he rolls out like an old dog.  he gets to a bay like an old dog.  i started him about a month ago and is getting better and better every hunt.  i have high hopes for this dog.  my future dogs will come from the same breeder.  very impressed with his dogs.

the yeller dog in the pics is a young dog that i got at 6mnths old and had ben blood in him. the first hog i showed  he caught and was harder to break than most bulldogs.  he was finding hogs byhimself at a year old. really gritty. i lost in hunting(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc308/joeboared/102_0852.jpg)(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc308/joeboared/102_0860.jpg)

NUTTING IS THAT BO NUTTING FROM MIDLOTHIAN TX ?? I KNOW HE HAS HAD BLACKMOUTHS FOR MANY YEARS

All of these world ch etc,etc were with in the same registry and not open competition to all yellow dogs or cur dogs in general correct?  was he competing against bulldogs for his world hog catch ch?

Not knocking the dog or the line but w/ so many produced why do we not here more about them?  I had a few when the registry started that didn't suit me and one that did.Is every one who posted that had these still using them? 

I did not hear of any ben dogs at the cattle dog trials in Oklahoma recently.

hype?

 

Don't know anything about the competitions, but I'm sure it would be like anything else.  Depends on whose eye is looking.  What suits one will not suit another.  That's just the way it's always been, and way it will always be.  I've read about some of the so-called tests and how they do their "boar" testing or whatever....such a joke.

Some love these dogs and some claim nothing but culls.  Neither side will probably ever change the others mind.  Same old argument, different day...blue pit vs. black pit, catahoula vs. black mouth, dogo vs. ab....etc, etc, etc.

No, but Ben came from dogs that were at the bay event..

Contact bob cox curdogcox@yahoo.com or cell 817 360 4685 he has the tightest ben breeding i believe is possibble if not its in the top 2% no b.s. I am amazed when i see his dogs that dont know anything hunt like a finished 4 year old dog and its only there 2 or 3 time in the woods unbeleiveable work ethic wtih john wayne ross on his waiting list for a pup...thats the man who registers bmc's in texas.

FYI Not the highest possible, but probably the highest % living. (pretty high%)  I know Bob and he has a 75% Ben Male dog, he is one of my partners (kds Blackmouth Curs).. John Wayne Ross is the president of Southern BlackmoutH Cur Breeders Association (SBMCBA).. However, most of the Ben dogs are registered through the Foundation Blackmouth Cur registration (Founded by Randy Wright)..

I know kory, bob,donald, and have met Jake in lousiana a time or two. Good fellas (except kory  ;D) I am still teaching him a bunch of stuff and he is hard headed so it takes him longer--lol. Who are you, and how long have you been with them? My name is grant. I was over a bobs last wk and he got sams brother ruger sired by tank they are some good looking dogs!!!

I know this is gona start something.

I don't think you see a lot of them around because people don't want to pay for them. The puppys with the right breeding and confirmed genetics are not cheap and most of the hog hunters I know are cheap as hell when it comes to buying puppys. People talk about them being good or bad, culls or not, but fbmcbo breeders like Randy have a 100% guarante on the pups that they sell. If they aren't what you want at a year he will refund your money or get another pup to you. Not going to find a more honest and strait up man that will stand behind his breeding and dogs.

You could not have said it any better AnthonyB!!!! You are right on the money. 

Gregg Dawson...I guess I have been with them for about 2 years or so..I am down in Southeast Texas (around Beaumont), so don't get to see them much..We get to talk dogs every now an then on the phone though...Good luck with Kory, he is a tough nut to crack..

Oh, bobs told me about you he said your like a mad scientist when it comes to line breeding and genetics. he said you have studied all the books etc. and i believe was telling me that a line bred dog thats a cull will throw more good dogs than a scatter bred dog who hunts well but his lineage didnt. What kind of books? I am interested in that stuff.

Some of the genetics books are pretty good, but most are just recycled trash, but there are two books I would recomend.   The Walk with Wick books by John Wick (Volumes 1 and 2).  He is a coon hunter, owned a dog supply company for several years and has bred and trained coon dogs for over 40 years.

Mad scientist is probably right, cause it will make you go crazy.   

What will truly make you crazy is when you try to explain line-breeding to Kory...as in good verses bad. I like to put a scatter bred dog into my lines every once in awhile, some do some don't.  The ben line is like every line of dogs out there, some are good, some are bad, and some are great.  Alot depends on what you are looking for in a dog. Good blood lines are important, but so is the working ability of the dogs you actually breed. Grant, sometimes when you try the impossible it really is impossible. If Kory calls me mom and I won't try to straighten him out you might want to admit defeat..lol

Yep...Kory is a great guy, but he has his theory and you can't change it..I think what he doesn't realize is the dogs he has seen that were scatter bred actually came from good/great lines of dogs (hence two linebred dogs together with concentrated genes on both sides)...However, I want to see what those F1 pups produce without taking them back to one of the lines...I have also told him that breeding good dog to good dog you will lose most of what you started with in a couple of generations.  Not only that, but how can you determine what you will produce?  could be anything...I personally want to be able to know what to expect from a breeding (as much as I can anyway)...