EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I hear all the time how well bred pups, started dogs or even older, solid, strike dogs that are sold can be ruined by their handler.

What are some things these handlers do to ruin these dogs?

i think to much hitting on a dog is a bad thing. disapline is fine just dont over do it is my thought.

I have seen some be rough with the dogs and cause them to shut down. I have taken a few from some friends who were like this and it took time to let them break out of it.

 First thing that comes to mind is the trusty shock collar, 90% of people do NOT know how to train with one, 2nd people do not give a dog enough time to adjust to them, I say give a dog atleast a month to adjust to you before making an opinion/evaluation of the dog.  

I think it has a lot to do with someone not knowing how to read a dog.  If the dog ain't hunting for you, maybe more people should sit back and think, "what am I doing wrong, could I be part of the problem".  I'm all for culling hard, but some people expect to much from a puppy or put them in situations they aren't ready for mentally or physically, puppy wise anyways.  It's more of a waiting game than anything to me.

Now started dogs, e collars do damage when someone ain't using them right.

Finished dogs- cant touch this one, not enough experience under my belt.

Okay, you asked! The number one thing I see guys do that ruins a dog is rough handle one...especially a pup. Now I will get after a dog that really needs it, but I allow a little individual expression too. Monkey hates people and won't let another strange dog in the box with him. I tolerate that, instead of beating on him for it, as he consistently finds hogs for me about everywhere I put him down. He is kind of high strung ( as are some of his pups) and they just won't tolerate a rough hand. It would ruin them.

And you have to be smarter than the dog..... ;D

Some guys are dog guys and some guys are not... and never will be, no matter how many dogs they own. Just like some guys are natural on a horse and some guys will never be good on a horse.................

over training in the pen. letting the pups bay too often for too long.

Calling the dog to you so you can beat/correct it.

Losing you temper around the dog and then taking it out on the dog.

Not consistant in training/discipline.

hunting too fast on the four wheeler and not paying attention to the dogs.
The dogs are smelling hog but you keep moving which teaches the pups to want to keep up with the 4 wheeler and not work out the track.

Pups first time in the woods and he gets hammered with the e-collar for running a deer. The pup quits hunting because anytime he gets away from the master in the woods he gets a bad pain in the neck so he quits hunting. The pup associates the pain with ranging out to hunt and not just running deer, so the pup quits hunting.

SOMETIMES IT IS NOT WHAT WE DO WRONG AS HANDLERS... BUT IT IS WHAT WE DON'T DO RIGHT AS HANDLERS...

I have been told on more than one occasion I treat my dogs too good, like pets. I have hunted with a couple jam up dogs that are house dogs by day, hog dog by night. Peaches come to mind owned by cull buck... I have been trying to correct this problem in myself for the last few months.

  Taking them home then not continuing hunting a regular schedule or taking a good dog and hunting it with a bunch of trash they think is good. Either can sure contribute to the ruin of a good one.

man im hard on my dog sometimes but all i do is yell, ive NEVER and i repeat NEVER put my hands on a dog as punishment

i can walk my dog without a leash and if he gets on someone all i do is say "HEY!" and he will come right back and sometimes i even reward him for it so he knows not to be like that, so my answer is bein to hard on a dog

Putting a dog on the end of a chain and talk bout how good of a hog dog he is until they take him off at 2yrs old and are pissed cause he just looks at em in the woods.  Put your time into your pups! If no go then C.U.L.L.

What Rueben said.

Ruben has stated some of it, but I'll make it real simple for everyone to grasp. 

BE CONSISTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't send mixed messages. 

To me, that is generally the problem.   8)

Both of these things are probably more as a result of the way I require my dogs to hunt, but two things that I've witnessed as hindering to a young dog are:

#1 - Spending the first year of a pups life petting and playing with it...basically conditioning it to stay near you, and then taking it to the woods at a year old and not being able to figure out why it won't get out from under your feet.  When a well bred pup hasn't been treated this way, it has no desire to hang around when it's time to work.  I like my dogs to have a lot of independance and not necessarily look to me for guidance.

#2 - Dumping a dog out of the box and taking off on a four wheeler or even by foot.  When I hunt, I usually stay put and I expect my dogs to move out and cover a lot of ground without me pushing them to do so.  Again, mostly due to style of hunting.

Stupidity- Ego, whatever you want to call it is the main thing that will set a good dog way back. I'm not gonna say Ruin one becasue I believe a dog that has that "want to" can come back around if put in the hands of the right person. I've heard quiet a few idiots get around a group of people and start telling that story about how they "tied their dog to a tree" and beat it almost to death because of something the dog did 30 minutes ago, usually for running a deer ,etc.. You have 3 seconds to correct a dog for doing something you don't want it to do, 3 SECONDS. After that the dog has no idea what it's getting punished for.. I've seen a few very good dogs get set back because of this kind of stupidity..  AND if you are dumb enough to tie your dog to a tree and beat on it don't be also dumb enough to think telling that to people is gonna make you look like some kind of big shot, all you do is show your ignorance..
A dog will want to please you not because he fears you but because he respects you..

X2

May I add a question?  I have two yella gyp pups bout 6 months old. They have interest in hogs but do not just go bay with the big dogs. Wuts the best next step in getting em going.

Give em a little more time. There is a world of difference in a 6 month old pup and a 10 month old pup or a year old..

Should I let em bay around the pen? And as for hard on dogs. The only time mine get a whooping is when they trash. I let em know that's not acceptable by no means. I don't see any other reason. If my wife would let me I'd have ten house dogs LOL.

10-4  let them bay around the pen. The pup will let you know when they want in with the dogs that are baying in the pen.

I dont have an opinion, but wanted to say thanks for starting this Mike. Very informative thread...

You're welcome... I figured it would be a good topic for discussion.

Letting them bay around the pen wont hurt em a bit and hopefully will get that light to click on in their head..

I think that people have a tendency to want to direct their dogs. As in they want to send the dogs in a certain direction or patch of woods or a certain field to go find a hog. But a dog needs to go where its nose leads them, not where we want them to go.  I think that if we don't trust our dogs noses, and we try to control the hunt too much, it can ruin a dog. Ive seen people put their dogs on the ground to send them out into a patch of woods and the dogs haul butt in the other direction and then the person get upset and go stop the dogs and try to force the dogs in the direction that they want them to go. But if we could smell hogs as good as the dogs, we wouldn't need dogs. JMO

Handler putting to many volts into dog
Handler sleeping in truck while dog being cut down by bad boar
Handler letting city boys take 44 mags and shoot next to dogs head while baying big hog
Handler feeding catlfish food to dog
Handler not feeding dog
Handler not worming dog
Handler not hunting dog
Handler getting divorced and selling dogs
Handler getting divorced and giving away dog
Handler letting tom dick and hog less harry borrow dog to hunt with there pound dogs
Handler running over dog because too many too brown sodas
handler no place to hunt becase cheated landowner
Handler just eat up with bumbass and ruined dog because he sooo stooopiddddd anwayslol

a dog is only as good as his trainer,time is the key word. it also helps if you got lots of hogs to.

i dont know monty i have seen a lot of dogs way better and smarter then the trainer but i know what your saying!

A lot of people expect a new dog to learn them. You have to learn the dog. They are like us not all of us like the same foods. Just like dogs may not like your hunting style. I like to catch hogs and if I have to get out of my comfort zone so I can a accommodate the dogs style I will. IMO just a lack of patience in the handler.  I think if an older dog had it he still has it. Just take the time to find how to get it out

Mike, I know the topic is what do handlers do to ruin a dog?

I think a strong "A" personality type trainer that is too strong of a leader will not have the patience to bring out the best in the dog. Especially if this person is more interested in catching hogs than bringing out the best in the dog or dog pack.

A good handler has patience for the dogs and is constantly analyzing what the dogs are doing and this handler can tell the story as to what the dogs are doing in the woods. The Garmin is changing that... the garmin is more accurate but it is fun analyzing and visualizing what the dogs are doing... :)

If I want my dogs to cast in the woods I stop the wheeler from the downwind side and walk in with the dogs and when the dogs cast in I go back to the wheeler and wait. I wait because I want my dogs to know that I will wait on them and they will learn to be thorough.

When I am hunting the dogs I am constantly looking at the dogs and watching to see what they are doing and everything is done to maximize the dogs hunting ability. I try to read their minds so I can adjust.

Again, everything I do is to teach the dogs how to hunt to the best of their ability.

If I hunt crosswind I will help the dogs if they need help to where they can pick up the scent again if needed. If the wind is channeling and they pick up the scent but lose it I will help them to get back on it.

It is a minimum amount of guidance but it is the little things that bring out the best in the dog.

And the dog must  be well socialized as a pup to bring out the very best in him/her...And it is nice to have a dog that wants to hunt.

Reuben when you say a pup needs to be well socialized, i dont know if i fully agree with you on that. I know some dogs need it but some of the best dog men that i have talk to or heard about say that they dont have much to do with the dogs while they are pups and they still end up being great dogs. Im by no means saying its not good bc i do it, but none of my dogs are by no means a great dogs, and i think this may be the reason.

Ex. my brother is totally opposite and he just feeds his pups and leave them in a pen or on a chain till he get ready to start them and most of the time his pups out of the same litter, out shine mine by a mile.

What do you think the reason is for this?

Sdillard,

It is strictly my opinion only

bad handling can be not enough socializing or too much.
Not enough makes for a shy dog and too much the dog can be getting trained to stick around your feet without the handler realizing he is training the dog to be underfoot.

The right amount to me is when the pup trusts me and is exposed to all types of different situations like riding in the dog box, not calling the pup to me but encouraging it to range out and to be independent but I know the pup will come when called. I call the pup in and pet it a little for a quick greeting and then ignore it. I want the pup to be independent.
I want enough socializing to the point where the pup is not shy.

Reuben, i totally agree with you but it just make me so mad when i see a dog that never was really messed with out of the same litter out do mine, lol. AND my brother loves to rub it in that i baby mine up here in the city and them country dogs will alway outshine a city dog lol

Good topic mike.1-shockin, beatin, or any other disipline when a dog trashes when they have no idea what they are gettin it for. 2- over workin young dogs to where they burn out. Excessive pen time, working too long in heat, etc. 3-not giving dogs enough exposure. I know this is hard to control but what gets me is when one person has 2 dogs same age and one is doing better so he only hauls that one when the other would possibly be the better dog with a little more time. There are plenty more but these three come to mind and happen quite often.   

Lack of patience, I am guilty of it as is my husband.  Here recently we find our selves calling/cutting the dogs off because we know if they make it in "that head or retention pond" we are going to be waiting hours and to me that is the worst thing to do....especially now that the young dogs are running full time.  IMO it teaches them that its OK to quit and I can see where our lack of patience  has affected our dogs dramattically in the last few months....which is something that I am working on correcting  popo 

Or those that who do not like what a dog is doing but will do absolutely nothing to correct it.  The neighbors young dog started catching by the flank and on the leg so he called and asked for advice, of which the only advice was to keep working with him and try to correct it....instead he just up and trades the dogs because he doesnt want to be bothered with it  :-\ to me that is just pure lazyness.

I think crackerc hit the nail on the head......you've GOT to be smarter than the dog....and sadly, many handlers just aren't.

I agree with most everyones comments here but crackerc gets a big fat BINGO on this one.

Other than that, this is a good thread that is well covered.