EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

How many of yall have had a curr gyp bred to a cur come out with a pink nose black mask pup or just a pink nose pup, I know thier is a pink nose pit line but Im talking a line of curs that is long but every now and then throws a pink nose pup.

Some of the weatherfords Ben dogs come out with pink noses and dusky masks or no mask. I almost bought one but decided to go with my gut instead.

iI have seen a few bmc and some kemmers as well.

I know of one lady who used to breed curs here in Fl had some with a pink nose.  The gyp she had came off of the ben line.

Ive seen several pink nose pups and grown dogs all were BMC or Cat's. Sometimes it will change when they get older. Ive been told it was from real TIGHT line breeding. My Catahoula is papered and he has a pink nose and is a red leopard. Its not a bad thing at all, as a matter of fact all the dogs Ive seen with pink noses were good hunting dogs. Consider yourself lucky are they papered? do you know the bloodline?? Sometimes people will take a cur and cross it with a gamey red nose to add grit  and the pink nose comes but that is not the same thing I am talking about.

Matt

some of my bmc come pink nose. there grand dad was pink nose. he was ladner bred.
(http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/montybennet/06-23-11_16361.jpg)
(http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/montybennet/06-23-11_16351.jpg)
these yellow dogs iv got also have weatherfordben in them to
(http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/montybennet/02-16-11_15391.jpg)
there litter mates.

I was going to ask if it was associated with the Ben dogs, we had one that was off some "Ben dogs" here in town that had a pink nose.

I seen some pics of some pups on another forum off of the Scout dog that were pink nosed with the light masks.

(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu277/tnhillbilly/BMCpups021.jpg)

First one I ever owned

I"d never seen it until I made  a real tight breeding and got a couple . Then I started lookin around and seen it's pretty common .

Yeah michelle mears had some dogs that i think had ben lines too them, her Kat? gyp had a pink nose and i think scout was related to her.

This is my catahoula I was talkin about. He is over a year now and its just as pink. He's making a good dog, I hope he will throw a few offspring like him.


(http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n495/baynslay/Hogs/bubbba.jpg)

I was told by a "HALL OF FAME FBMC BREEDER" that the pink nose comes from the dogs being bred so tight.  I personally have no idea why and could care less but that is what I was told.... ;)

x2 thats what I heard also

I wouldnt doubt it, the dog we had was ill built and you could tell he had probably been bred with $ in mind but he would get after a hog as long as you dumped it out in front of him....he went hunting one night and never came home.

It's nothing more complicated than a simple recessive gene...

Dogs don't need to be bred "tight", "inbred", or "linebred" to express a recessive gene.
Both dogs need to be carriers of the gene to express it in a litter of pups. Pink nose bred to pink nose will produce an all pink nose litter of pups.

I guess I am a little behind on the grand sceme of things when it comes to papered dogs but I have to ask what is the definition of a HALL OF FAME FBMC BREEDER? Sorry just struck me funny aint trying to be rude just curious.

Also I have known several people that have and hunt the pink nosed dogs and they are as you say usually top notch not downgrading them a bit. But just wondering at what point do you quit referring them as a blackmouth since they aint got no blackmouth and will repeatedly throw other pink noses. LOL (Just pokin a bit) :laugh: I will have to say they usually prove themselves as solid. MONTY I HAVE SEEN YOURS IN ACTION!!!

YBM I think he was being sarcastic..  ;)

Gotcha..thats what I figured but I was allowing room for my ignorance as well. LOL thought they have came out with a ranking system like the post summary here!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 :-X :-X  ;) ;D

X2 I wish more people could understand this.......

I understand that it's a gene, just like glass eyes or leopard color, but if you only breed dog with pink noses your still doing a form of "tight" breeding. Thats what line breeding is keeping the gene or trait very close to try and repeat it. Most ppl do this based on ability but same goes for breeding for color and even if you do breed 2 pink nose dogs it doesnt mean the whole litter will be pink noses. I dont see any Rottweilers or Dobermans with pink noses. It has to be a gene mainly in the Ben bloodline somewhere.

Flbaynslay, please research genetics.

It is NOT a gene like glass eyes or leopard color.

It is a recessive gene.

Ok I see, so any dog no matter breed with this "recessive gene" can get a pink nose???? I must of misunderstood

Ok now im confused.  A recessive gene is a gene right?  ;)  Now the part im curious about is this.  If you began breeding cats for example (since they are more common with glass eyes and leopard color which was the example used) that dont have glass eyes or leopard colors to like dogs and began culling the dogs that came out with either glass eyes or leopard color and only bred the ones that throw dogs with out the eyes and color would you not essentialy change the genetics you were breeding and now the glass eyes and leopard color would be recessive?  Now this being the case if you only bred dogs with pink noses to the like and culled what didnt have pink noses etc. etc etc.. wouldnt you again change the genetics you were breeding, kinda like people have done over the decades to get what they wanted? 

Owl i did that with absolutely no researching of genetics so if im wrong please let me know where i should research to better understand what your sayin.  ;D

Please reconsider your tact, if you tell someone to "research genetics" you should validate your opinion with scientific evidence. Glass eyes and leopard coats can also be recessive genes, I have owned several catahoulas that the general public would think were underfed black labs. ;) any trait that didn't come out in a particular dog but was present in previous parentage is currently recessive. Remember, AA Aa. If one dog carries aa and the other carries Aa or AA what happens?

Any dog with that particular recessive gene, regardless of breed, will produce it when bred to any other dog with that particular recessive gene, regardless of breed.

Blue eyes is a recessive trait in people.  Just because you are blue eyed doesn't make you inbred.

May be different in Florida though? I don't know.

OK HOLD IT RIGHT THERE!  You make a retarded statement then blue eyed people in Fl are inbred??  WTF??  Im a blue eyed floridian as is my son and I TAKE SERIOUS OFFENSE!!!

This is how it would break down, say B is the dominant gene for black nose, and say p is recessive gene for pink noses. You would need both recessive genes from the parents to have a pink nose

Both parents carry recessive gene
Bp X Bp = BB- black nose
              Bp- black nose
              Bp- black nose
              pp- pink nose

One parent carries recessive gene
BB X Bp = BB- Black
              BB- Black   BB does not carry gene for pink nose, you cannot breed anything to him and get a pink nose
              Bp- Black  
              Bp- Black   Bp is a carrier for recessive gene

pp X Bp = Bp
              Bp     1/2 black
              pp
              pp     1/2 pink

BB X pp = Bp
              Bp
              Bp
              Bp     Whole litter would have black noses, but would all be carriers of gene
              

No, he said it is not a gene LIKE glass eyes or leopard color.

DAMN John!!!! I knew they were teaching you something down there in Gville!!!!!  ;D I get it now.

Im still not sure about that OWL, I have never seen a Rottweiler or many other breeds with pink noses. I know theres always the exception that one dog out of the litter comes out looking totally diff. I believe this recessive gene is only common in certain breeds as in Cats or BMC's. Clearly Owl is the master of genetics and a brown eyed Texan who's jealous of blue eyes and Floridians.  hahahaahah  :D

Matt, all he is doing is making a generalization, it doesn't matter what breed, what kind of animal, what kind of plant. In genetics if two organisms that carry a recessive gene reproduce roughly 1/4th of the offspring will be double recessive and the offspring will show this in their phenotype.

OWL,

    Two of your twelve posts have had rude remarks. A third and you can find somewhere else to post. ;)

My serious question is I can live with and justify the pink noses in a litter once every other couple decades or so ;) but what makes their tails fall off in certain Hall of Fame Lines??? :o Still havn't figured out how to captain a vessel without a rudder! ;D

I see what you mean John it makes sense when you put it that way and Yellow I couldnt agree more lol But I do know a bobtail yella dog with a pink nose may be the best lookin dog around  ;D

I think that is called mountain cur.lol or just the foundation  breeders lie I knew didn't  have any Bob tails. But they were making  a living useing there's dogs not making  a living  selling  them.

Linebreeding / Inbreeding / Tight Breeding or whatever you choose to call it NEVER CAUSES such things as pink noses, bobbed tails, rear dew claws or anything like that.  BUT...by breeding tight you are essentially narrowing the gene pool which will result in recessive traits (already present in the dogs) becoming more common in the phenotype of the progeny.

You can cull for a specific trait and over time have that particular trait evident in all offspring, however that does not change the fact that the trait is either dominant or recessive.

Bryant thats what I was thinking I just didnt know how to put it. Thank you,

Perfect form, thank you sir. Im on myphone driving and couldn't have handled that with the finesse you did.

OK guys, there has probably been more study done with labs and their colors, Black, yellow and chocolate than any other dog.

If you want to boggle your mind, read this

http://beulahland.tripod.com/coatcolor.htm

I got started reading about it when I had 2 black Labs throw 6 yellows, 1 black and 1 chocolate in a single litter. THat link will tell you how many of each color you will get when you cross a gyp with these genes with a dog that has those genes. Pretty cool stuff.

And also in yellow lab there's  a version known as a Dudley that has the recessive genes that cause pink noses and eyes. This is the way chocolate labs are, but when the recessive meets a recessive, you get Dudleys.

I am no geneticist , but I do know there are dominant genes that leave their mark either single or in pairs. White is the dominant hog hair color. I learned that in Ag and I crossed a york boar on several different colored sows and while the skin may be colored, the hair is white. Go to the county fair and look what color a York/Hamp cross is. White hair with black spots on the skin.

With recessive genes there has to be a pair for it to take over.

So if you are line breeding dogs with pink noses, it stands to reason that there will be pink nosed pups.

I have never studied up on glass eyes in dogs. It is probably interesting since you get 1 glass eye, 2 glass eyes a half glass eye. Its not by chance per say, but I guess it is by chance of what genes pair up.

BobbyB, I believe the gene for glass eyes would be a linked gene (on the same chromosome) as the merle coloration and probably also the deaf/blind issues that go along with the double recessive merles.

I have formed an opinion about extreme breeding like the english bull dog or a real tight bred family of dogs for a particular trait or traits. Quite a bit of these traits usually are recessive because they are not what you call the norm because they have to be bred and selected for that purpose. This is why when bred to another breed or strain that is not tight bred for those traits that you lose quite a bit of those traits because other dominant traits will pop up.I am not saying this is fact just how I have understood or percieved when it comes to breeding dogs.

I have read enough about genetics to get confused... ??? ;Dso I try to keep it simple. Stay within a breed and strain that is somewhat tight bred and breed for perfomance and function first and let color be further down the list.

It seems to me that once the traits are set to keep them that way we have to breed within that strain or breed or all can be lost if it is a small family of dogs. A good example would be by breeding a redbone hound with a blue brindle plott hound. The redbone comes in red, maybe different shades of red but red. After it is crossed with the plott...what color would the pups be??? ???

 I have seen quite a few red or liver colored cat curs with pink or liver colored noses as well as red dobermans.

I bred a real tight line of mtn curs and never bred for chocolate and I got 2 pups that were chocolate about 15 years apart...they had the liver or pink nose.

It is possible that when we see a black nose that it is really a dark dark pink nose even though it looks black to the average person but when it comes to genetics it is a pink nose.

I do know that a dog can appear to have a long tail but it can be missing one vertabrae and so it is really a bob tailed dog when we are talking about genetics...

I have a son from Kat and Justice I believe it was her last breeding hes pink nosed 70lb. dog Scout is my dogs older brother.

This turned into a great post!!! Learn something new everyday  ;D

On the subject of genetics, I have a natural bob tailed Brittany. Just barely a stump. I was told to never breed 2 natural bobs together. I researched it and its called the death gene. If you breed 2 natural bobs, the pups will have intestines missing, spine can stop short, just all sorts of bad crap happens. But as long as you breed a long tail and a bob tail, its all good to a point. Bonnie has trouble with loose stools and I found out even bred like she is, the stomach/intestines can be just a little off.

Her first lit8er of pups had tails that ranged from full length to half to 1/4 to a tiny bump. Genetics can be interesting and weird at the same time.

Always heard they were good dogs.. Wouldnt mind gettin my hands on a tight bred one..  Pink nosed or not  ;D

Bobby,

I tried to breed away from bob tails but they always were there with the mtn cur. I never kept a natural bob tailed dog if it was less than 3 inches or so. I only bred one if it was a top dog in all the other areas but the tail had to be at least a quarter length.

Reuben, what was the reasoning for not keeping the bobtails? Preference or what?

SFBoarBuster,

There are 2 reasons why I stayed away from the real short bob tails. I read where some of these dogs are short bodied and long legged which makes them not run very well. It is kind of like a Hackney horse that prances. The front foot picks up before the rear foot steps down otherwise the rear foot will step on the front foot. This causes the horse to prance and this could happen with the dogs. I didn't have that problem but was aware of the possibility.

The second reason is what BobbyB was talking about. If you breed too short of tailed dogs together we can have pups that have intestinal problems as well as spinal bifida. I had some dogs with 4-6 inch natural bob tails that were fast and had lots of endurance.

I have been told and have read that some pups have been born to a pair of natural bobs that were not developed from the flanks back. It is supposed to be pretty disturbing to see.

Scout is out of Justice & Kat.  My buddy owns Scout. He's 10 years old has cancer & still catches like a bulldog. If he's baying it's a rank hog.

I had a littermate brother to Justice. He had a pink nose and was as rank as a cur dog could be. He almost never barked. That line of foundation dogs were some of the roughest I have ever seen. I know Jeremy hopes they are all that rough!  ;)

Do yall know if anyone is still breeding that line of dogs?  I heard there wernt many of them left.

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5069/5629030398_dbb933ce21.jpg)

This is Jefe..great hog dog...he was just bred to another linebred female and she threw out 2 pink nose pups...Very excited about all the puppies.  Both are hard hunting dogs.  Jefe started of rough, but learned his lesson, how he bays loose until the catchdog catches. 

Jerryg

Jeremy just had a litter from Scout & a gyp that's related to him. They are supposed to be bred pretty tight.

Jeremy use to have some of the best dogs around. I know he's been ready to pull his hair out trying to replace what he had.

Jeremy use to have some of the best dogs around. I know he's been ready to pull his hair out trying to replace what he had.
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I know the feeling...

i had 2 females and a buddy of mine had male off of michelles last breeding they are both gone now but were to of the fastest agile bay dogs ive ever seen i was lucky enough to hunt with her and her dogs before she passed and kat and justice one word to describe wow

(http://i1102.photobucket.co[IMG]http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g448/bigcutters4/IMG00219-20110111-20221.jpg)m/albums/g448/bigcutters4/100_00022.jpg[/IMG]these 2 yealla dogs are from michelles last breeding also the brindle is out of her croc dog

(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g448/bigcutters4/th_IMG00219-2[URL=http://s1102.photobucket.com/albums/g448/bigcutters4/?action-view&current=100_00022.jpg][IMG]http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g448/bigcutters4/th_100_00022.jpg) (http://s1102.photobucket.com/albums/g448/bigcutters4/?action=view&current=IMG00219-20110111-20221.jpg)0110111-20221.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

these 2 yealla dogs are from michelles last breeding also the brindle is out of her croc dog

I had my Cur jump my pit,  i had three pups one red female one brindle male and pone black male exactly like gator dog. My cur dog is catchy> but n
kowns when to bark>. i wish he had more bark!

Here are some picts of several pink nosed dogs that I have or had and a litter of pink nosed pups(in which case both parents were pink nosed).  Like was previously said though, its only a recessive gene, which when you line breed, had a greater chance of showing up.  I personally like it and have breed for it, however its just a personal preference, nothing special about it.
(http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa480/jawaters/Pups%20-%20Scout%20x%20Josie/IMG_0947.jpg)

(http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa480/jawaters/Pups%20-%20Scout%20x%20Josie/IMG_0944.jpg)

(http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa480/jawaters/May%202011/IMG_0653.jpg)

(http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa480/jawaters/May%202011/IMG_0656.jpg)

(http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa480/jawaters/May%202011/IMG_0652.jpg)

Thanks Jimmy!  Good thing I started with a head full (of hair) cause I'm not done pulling yet (getting closer though).  Coy has turned out all right and I'm keeping one pup out of each of the two litters off Scout (one of the gyps is Coys sister).  There's still a lot TBD but things are at least moving in the right direction.....

Ryan, are you from ftmyers? I'm from lehigh. I used to breed those ben dogs for like 8 years. All my dogs came from a guy named tubby "Fred Riley". They had no papers but he said they were bred tight to a dog named bullet or silver bullet from tampa. Anyhow they always had 2 or 3 pups that were rednose in each litter and they seemed a little shy but had good range. They always made excellent hog dogs.

yeah im from ft myers but i work in lehigh.

You hunt with billy?

Jwaters do you have Scout? I saw Scout at Jims place like 2yrs ago he told me he was selling him. I got a male from Justice and Kat he turns 6 in Nov. What i believe was the last litter from them 2 dogs. Glad to know someone is trying to keep that strain going. Good luck!

Billy who?  I know a kid named Billy that runs dogs, but ive never hunted with him. may be the same person. 

Billy love. Was just curious, he always talks about his friend Ryan.

yeah i know who he is.  ive run into him a couple times while im working, we shoot the bull for a few minutes but nothin more than that. I dont hunt with him.