EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I've heard that if you really want your dogs to be the best of the best, they shouldn't be handled too much and not shown very much attention.

From my experience, my husband and I have plenty of dogs and we coddle them, too much I'm afraid sometimes :p However, when they need to, they give it 150%

Take example A

(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l586/muddogkennels/Primooooo.jpg)

 LOL....we spoil our cds pretty bad. We also show our bay dogs lots of affection but maybe not too much when we are starting them out. I feel like if they are your best bud, they don't want to get out and hunt with the other dogs, they want to hang out at the four wheeler to be with you. But once they are hunting really good its a different story.  :)

x2

Absolutely x2

I wish more people would socialize and play with their cur dogs as pups. I've meet too many that are skittish shy and take over 10 mins just to catch. These dogs were never abused physically or verbally just seems like they were left in a kennel and not handled until they were a year old and now they act like a wild coyote. You don't want them so familiar with you that they always stay close and are wanting to look to you to see what they need to be doing but for petes sakes at least play with them enough that they aint afraid of a human and have somewhat of a handle.

You can love on catch dogs as much as you want!

X3

 THats what I used to think but we have a dog that has lots of potential. He has struck his own hogs and is very gritty but he just wont range out because of his desire to be near my husband. We leave him at home now and he is our yard dog. Its very sad because he could have been a good dog but we treated him like a pet from day one and now thats what he is.  :(  But you are also right about not letting them be wild like a coyote.

Swine Goddess do yall run exclusively jagds? Petting Jagds in a necesity IMO if you want to have a realtionship with them, they are not like other breeds of dogs. Where did you get your Jagds from? Are they bred for Baypens ?

yep theres a fine line between not enough and too much when it comes to affection ;)

Our jagds are from a kennel called cooldog kennel. My husband bought them from the kennels owner David Mangrum. He turns out really great dogs. We have other breeds besides jagds, plotts, cur, pitts, and a cat. But the jagds are my favorite but dont tell my bulldogs :p We run our male jagd in both the woods and bay pen, but all of our dogs are both ways, minus the pitts.

I've seen plenty of dogs that are like that, but most of them are just genetically skittish. It doesn't matter how much attention you give them, thats just how they are.

ya some dogs are just born skittish seems like, i have one that was raised here petted and never beat and is still skitish been that way for years

that the same David Mangrum that breeds all those Plott dogs? Does he ever get on ETHD?
Nice looking dogs. you got any pictures of the hogs you caught with them? I should ad this to your other thread, you asked people to post of their Jagds lets see some more of your dogs.

x2, I like a dog that trusts me but when it is time to hunt the dog is out hunting.

I like giving just enough attention to the pups to keep them social and not shy. I never really call the dog to me unless I need him to come for a reason but it must know to come... and comes because the pup or dog trusts me.

Our dogs are friendly that we can pet and play with them when they are at home but they know when your hunting or in the baypen, you do your job and you will get cuddled and played with afterwards

Yea thats the same david mangrum that breeds the plotts not to sure if he gets on here or not i have his phone number if u need it.

Does he live right outside Alvin on 6?

ya thats him a real good guy with real good dogs he only sales dog an pups on here so when u see "cdr" our cool dog ranch dog for for sale there good dog hes probable just making some room!

X2 I met him awhile back and could not remember his name for the life of me. Seemed like a good feller. Nice lil set up as well.

Here's my theory and has seemed to work well plenty of attention to 4 to 6 months old when they are started on hogs/woods time.  Then not much other than feeding till they are going good then back to attention because by then they know what they are in the woods for.  Sometimes I think I still give too much attention to them everynow and again will see them look at me with a "what do I do look". On their face and this is the time to ignore them and make them figgure it out.  Think this is where some go somewhat wrong is too much instruction in the woods.   

all my dogs slept in my room, some on the bed some under it. i feel you hunt as a pack you should act as one , when i would step out in the woods they are gone but when im at home they stay by my feet

While mine dont sleep in bed with me, I have the same concept with my dogs, I do not pet bay/strike dogs in the woods and dont really pet the catchdogs, after the hunt they will get attention because they have done what they were suppose to do

My style is socialize the pups to the point of being able to handle them. I ususally drastically drop personal contact with them after that point and let them absorb themself with their peers or adult dogs to attempt and establish a pack mentallity. I usually attempt to kennel pups with older pups already working or finished dogs if they are not to agressive in the attempt to build bonds. Affection after that point only comes when they accomplish tasks or milestones but I still keep it to a minimum. If they are injured they get VIP and full affection until recovered and back in running order. When I retire a dog to stud or full retirement they get affection every day for the rest of their life along with all the perks....running loose, ect.. My view has always been the same.. Hunting dogs are a tool that I utilize for working ability only. I do not raise mine as pets in any sort of way, thats what I keep a seperate pet dog for the family that can be as worthless as it wants. My belief on this matter is perty simple, this is an addiction to me personally and I cannot afford to keep a tool that does not produce up to its own worth. It also desensitizes you as a handler for the inevitable that everyone will face if you stay in this sport long enough. I have lost to many over the years to take that kinda hurt built from a close personal bond with each dog. I lean toward the views of the handlers on here that choose to distance themselves from their hunting dogs because as stated above I don't want them hanging around wanting lovin in the woods. ITS GAME TIME OR GAME OVER!

This post is in no way a jab at the views of anyone else just my own personal way of training.   

I understand and respect everyones different style that is what keeps it interesting in here   

I haven’t read the whole thread, BUT WILL, I gotta get to work, but I will throw this thought of mine, if it has been already said I apologize.

 I pet ALL my dogs often, BUT I am a bit of a stickler in the woods, I DO NOT like my dogs petted while they are working--- I could be wrong BUT I was taught it teaches them to stay close instead of ranging out ---NOW--- after words while they in the box or at home I like kids to play with them and I like them to COME TO ME WHEN CALLED that takes a considerable amount of interaction on my part, so they learn to trust me and that it’s OK and GOOD to come when called. 

I enjoy ALL ASPECTS of dog care, breeding, hunting and training and that also includes affection which in my personal opinion is an integral aspect of training.

My girl babies are catch dogs also plays fetch with my female. My big pit is a big baby at the house but once I back my truck up with the dog box on it. It's like a switch gets turned on. So if your dog is game it doesn't matter how much u baby him his gonna be ready do roll when u load them up. Like they say when the tailgate drops the bullnumber 2 stops. They either have it or they don't. If he don't want to go hunt out it's cause he just don't want to that's jmo.

X2
 I bring all my dogs in the house at one time or another, and want a dog that will call out and come when called  I hunt alot by myself and want a dog to like me and will give it thier all and bail my my out of a bind if need be
    my .02
 Dexter

didn't want to say it but this is true...if the dog has hunt it will hunt no matter what but I pretty much agree with Yellowblackmask...the main thing is to make sure the dog is social towards family.

That about sums it up for me.  My working dogs are my working dogs.  The kids occasionally mess with them a bit at the kennels, but for the most part it's hands off.  Over the years I can probably count on two fingers the number of dogs who were handled as pets that impressed me as hunting dogs.  I've also been personal witness to PLENTY of well bred dogs that I feel were screwed up royally due to too much handling.

Btyant,

is it too much handling or could it be the wrong kind of handling?

examples of what I mean

calling the dogs and petting them and the dogs are being conditioned to pull off the track.

The pup is winding a hog but the handler is not paying attention to what the pup is doing or doesn't have a clue. The handler calls the pup and sends him ahead of the wheeler. To me, the pup is being conditioned to not be what he could be...I see this often and this is why one pup can shine with one handler and not the other...in this case the handler should stop the wheeler and give the pup a chance to work out the track. The pup needs to know you are hunting with him and he is not just having to worry about keeping up with the handler. Of course there is more to this but only a few examples.

ALLWAYS SHOW AFFECTION TO  YOUR DOGS ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY DO THE RITE THANG

X3... seen way to many people get attached to their hunting dogs or try to turn their pets into hunting dogs. First time something bad happens, that usually ends their hog hunting career.

Reuben,

The "too much handling" I speak of occurs before the dogs/pups ever hit the woods.

Lots of people can't stand having cute little puppies around without wanting to continually mess with them.  I don't see cute little puppies...I see future jam-up hunting dogs.

If you prefer shorter range hunting dogs and like them to stay somewhat near, I don't think it makes so much difference.

i love on mine from day one and they hunt just fine  for me. a dog thats going to hunt will hunt a dog that wont wont

 X2

Some of the best, long range, hog finders that I have ever seen didn't care if there was a person hunting with them or not.  I lean toward the dogs that really don't want your affection, but will let you put hands on them if you want to.  I like dogs that load in the truck to go hunting and load after its over, the only time I handle them is to put tracking collars on them.  My two young boys feed them nearly every day and pet every one of them and the dogs as well as the boys really enjoy it.

 Doing the petting and stuff at home is fine. I just don't understand why anyone would be hugging and petting babying the dogs out on the field, if u do well then I don't know if u should be out hunting lol. After a catch I tap my dogs and the head and say good job boy or whatever. I don't get down on my knees and start hugging them for catching a pig.

 One thing that Ive noticed about dogs is that  they all have very different levels of independence. Some are born leaders and some are very lowly and dependent on their leaders. The dogs that have low self worth and are always looking for leadership are the ones that need less interaction with people, and more interaction with other dogs ....I think. Because once they see you as the leader they want to be up your behind. So yes, some dogs do well with lots of attention while others do not. So this subject isn't black and white. But just to be sure, we don't over do the attention until our pups are getting out and hunting well.

PERFECT, Couldnt of said it any better myself, Im glad there's someone out there that shares my thoughts..

And again guys my post is not to call anyone out on their personal views or beliefs, so please nobody take that as a jab at your way of training. But as stated above especially on the building a close bond with your dogs. I speak from personal experience on that issue due to having done that very thing and then going through the pain of loosing a dog in the field when I first started out.

Everyone is wired different and can handle a situation different. But I would venture to say everyone that has extremly close attachments to their dogs cannot just deal with the situation on the spot and move on accordingly to finish out a hunt without litteraly coming apart or having a major hangup that effects the current situation you find yourself in. I know the answer that everyone will usually give due to not wanting to be thought of as a begginer or whatever, but everyone take a minute to consider how many dogs you have PERSONALLY lost in your hunting career and how it effected you (Not some buddies dog). If you can can keep your hunting dogs close close as part of your family and have lost numerous not just 1 or 2 but 20 or more and can keep going in this game without hesitation you are way ahead of where I can stay mentally.

I may have came out as a cold hearted individual to some about my dogs, but is truly further from the truth. I care a great deal about them and provide everything that they require. Again when they get cut down I realize that is a situation I placed them into and react accordingly providing VIP service to them for their sacrifice. I havn't retired many dogs just an unfoutunate part of this game, but the ones that do make it continue to live a life of luxury because they have earned every right from me to be spoiled.

To everyone that can accomplish these feats and continue to operate at full capacity you truly have my respect and should be proud because you are a very strong willed individual or a lucky sucker that time may prove to reveal a harsh reality in the end.

Truly I wish everyone the best of luck with your program and will say it to everyone "If it works for you thats all that truly matters".

Myles

I socialize and handle pups like crazy, because it works for them.  
I pet dogs on the head when we catch a hog because they work for me.  
That's really all the affection they get.    
I only pet the house dog to impress my wife. ;)

I think many people think about but I did not see it. For me it is control and me being in charge of everything. That includes affection. I lost a good guard dog to a lab because they all wanted affection. I do believe the dogs need affection. But I say when and how much not the dogs. I will go out and give affection. I say the dog's name and that is the only dog I will pet. If a dog jumps on they will get shoved back hard. I call each dog one at a time so each gets a turn unless they are not waiting their turn with dog patience. They get excited but should wait. If they won't wait I put them in a kennel and then pet the other dogs one at a time. Then the next time I start with them and see if they turn off when told. It is the same reason I pet them when I give them food. I expect them to let me touch them any time. My dogs don't sit, stay or roll over but they know I am in charge.

i've said it before i'll say it again . back in the day's of ol are hunting dogs were as well the family pets and household gaurd dogs . every dog i plan on keeping and putting my time into is welcome in my house for a while to learn me and bond with me and after that at spaced out intervals cause i cant let them all in at once and as a result of much affection and bonding i don't hunt with my dogs my dogs hunt with me . i'll only have a dog that hunts medium range and if nothing there check back in and i decide to go further or go someplace else . i have never in 45 some odd years had a dog that wouldn't hunt because of being to overly socialiezed. and after all i am out hog hunting and not dog hunting. i'll take my dogs out to the pond and play fetch in the summer months and as well be exercising them i will never walk past one of my dogs and sling em feed without stopping to scratch there ears and talking to em thats the way i been doing it since my first little rabbit dog back in 1962 my best beagle was my mommas house dog talk about spoiled !! and he led the pack in anybody's company. coon hounds hog dogs or what ever ain't no differant just my 25 cents worth.

This thread has had excellent posts/responses.

A well bred dog will hunt and I don't believe too much affection will keep it from hunting. A so so borderline dog might be affected but this kind of dog will be on the replacement list first chance I get.

My dogs are all raised inside til they are 3-4 months old. My bird dogs love attention more than any dog I have, but when we hunt, they are all business.

Blade will walk up and fall over wnating his belly rubbed with my foot, but when we turn him out, he is out and about. Same with all my dogs. The young dogs hang around but in my eye, because they are not sure what they should be doing.


We lay rub one's head when he is on the truck, but when they get put down, that stops. When I call them to the truck and we load them, I will pat them on the side and tell em good dog, but that is about all the attention they get in the woods. At home, Its whatever I feel like, belly rubbing, head and ears, whatever.

I have asked this and have seen it come up several times. I also asked the folks that wanted my pups how much attention they would get.

Raise and hunt yours your way and I will do the same for mine. But I really dont see how it can affect a dog  and would even suggest if the dog continues to hang around, it may be a bit short on drive.

myles I fill the same way it very well may not be the best way but its the best for me.
And I also figure that's the reason I didn't get a pup from Bobby b he ask me how I show affection to my puppies I told him the same thing, but all is good I no the game and what works for me.  No hard filling with anyone on here and not a jab at bobby just seen his post above.

I always enjoy these discussions. They usually turn up very interesting or very productive ideas. I truly believe there is no right or wrong way...just your way if it works. I enjoy the debates even if there are two totally different sides that wont give on either. At the end of all these posts we are all here for the same reason. ....Birds of a feather flock together...

A man that does not leave himself open to new ideas is realitively stuck in his own ideology and thus for cannot continue to learn anything else.

Great post guys keep it going.

There are a lot of good/great ideas, and opinions on here, just like there are a lot of good owners and good dogs that respect one another. Whatever works best for you and your dogs, has got to be good for all of you. Too bad our government can't learn from such simplicity.

Actually I had 16 people wanting one of 10 pups. I decided to just keep one and let 9 go. You were about 13 on the list. The way you described to me how you raise your pups didnt play into it . If there had been 13 pups you would  have had one. I was actually wanting one or 2 to go to guys like yourself to see how being raised differently would make the pups turn out. But I did the same with these pups as I do with my Brittanys. Pick in order I am contacted.

One of the biggest draw backs to being close to your dogs is when something happens to one of em, it tends to hit you a little harder. I know everyone feels bad to loose a good dog regardless how it was raised, but for me at least, it is just a little tougher.

It all depends on a guys definition of a hunting dog.  I'll talk about "Strike Dogs".  Some won't label them a good strike dog unless they leave the truck running and don't come back until a hog is found.  You know, lots of range and bottom.  Some folks are ok with strike dogs that hang around close, within 20 yards and never leave.  It depends on your hunting style.  I think this quote is right on.


"As for the long range strike dogs".  More than not, if you want the dog to stay close then you put more of a "handle" on him.  If you want the dog to leave out then you build a working relationship with him.  I've never had a long range jam up dog that once he was finished hunting that he was hard to catch.  The only time those dogs are hard to catch is while they are hunting.  One of my training secrets for a strike dog is, while they are hunting hogs I do not teach them the command no or stop or any command of that kind.  If you turn mine out you can not call them back for awhile.  I was once told by a partner of mine that a good find dog is like a machine.  All he needs is someone to turn the button on and let him go.  Thats what I prefer in a find dog.  My experience with them is they, will reach a point to where they don't care it they are petted or not.  Only when they are fed and after the hunt.  Yeah its agervating to try to catch a dog at the truck that wont come to you, but Ive seen several that instead of loading up they will go back to the woods and hunt.  I tried bringing the hunting dogs in the house and they crapped on ever thing they could.  They chased ever cat I owned and chewed up all the legs on the chairs.

It just depends on your preference and hunting styles.  More than not.  If you want the dog to stay close you baby him more.  If you want the dog to leave out you build a working relationship with him.


A hog hunter has to understand that most of the hogs now days act different from the hogs in the old days.  The hogs now do not bunchup and and their running distance has no bottom.  I bet not many hunters on here have ever hearded a set of wild hogs to a corral with dogs and then worked the pigs and turned them back in the woods.  To get a dog to work like that you need to have him close.  Dogs that work like cow dogs are supposed to work will not get the job done these days on the hogs that run.  In my situation, I select cow dogs vs. hog dogs on how they act and I pet the cow dogs more, to gain more of a handle on them, than I do the hogs dogs.

*I enjoy a good conversation.

Every dog I own has slept in the bed with me as a puppy. I also let every dog I own inside at night. I bring them to work with me. I will pet each dog a lot about once a week. Other than that I pat them on the head. I believe that a dog can learn anything you let it learn. I have never had a problem with a dog that was shown a lot of affection getting out and hunting. I believe that is 100% up to that individual dog. I'm sure no one on here pets their dogs in the woods but I refuse to even talk to or acknowledge my dogs in the woods. Everyonce in a while they will check in and look at me buts it's only to see which direction I am walking. I make sure that I am walking the direction I want them to hunt when I know they are checking in because that's the way they will go. When my dogs get out of the truck they know it's business. If they didn't then I would agree that they would be culls.

I have raised everyone of my dogs like a family member since they were pups but I will honestly tell you that I will be the one to put a bullet between their eyes when their time is up. I have seen a lot of death and I believe a person or animal is on this earth to serve a purpose. When that purpose is done its time to go. I love my dogs more than people but even my best pets I feel like I owe it to them to put them down one day if a hog doesn't get them first. I've lost some really good dogs that were also pets. Haven't shed a tear yet but its mainly because I knew what I was getting into when I started hunting with dogs. If you can't handle the loss of a close dog then don't get close because you will loose them one day.

But I say pet and love all over them dogs and enjoy them while you got them. If you think a dog is only capable of being a pet OR a good hunter, you're putting a limit on an amazing animal. Ask anyone that has spent time around my dogs and bhunted with them. People always ask me how I got my dogs to learn the things they know. I tell them they learned it theirself, I just didn't stop them from learning.

x2

Neches, I keep my pups stay in the house with me until they learn their name and will come to me good.  Then, they run loose outside until my wife gets mad about everything they are chewing up.  Then I put them up and haul them around in the truck on hunts once every month or two just to get them used to the routine.  I start carrying them hunting at about a yr old.  This whole time, I am good to the dogs, but they don't get any babying and hugging or googling over.

Also, you mentioned above that your dogs check in while hunting.  That reflects that we have different styles of hunting.  I don't walk hunt, I find a track on a road crossing or try to turn out in fresh sign.  The dogs either strike or come back.  That is why I need one to cover a lot of ground.  I don't mind one to hunt for miles, I'll just pick him up at the next place that I can get to him.   My Dad likes to walk his dogs in, but I don't.  I guess you could blame it on my lazyness. LOL.  If I walk hunted, I too would want a dog to check back in with me.



I am not cold hearted or abusive in any way toward the dogs (physically or mentally), I just realize that these dogs in my yard are an instrument to show me a hog.  Not a family member, not a friend, but a hunting companion that must perform.

When I was younger, I carried an old hound out of a creek bottom that had shown me hundreds of hogs.  He was about ten yrs old and had been cut twice in his long career (the second one ended his life).  I picked him up on my shoulders and started walking to the truck while in the company of my Dad and Uncle (two of the hardest men you will ever meet).  I started sobbing uncontrollably, to the point I couldn't hardly put one foot in front of the other.  Needless to say, I was ashamed to be crying in front of these men.  I vowed that day to never get attached to a hog dog like I was to that old Black and Tan hound.

hell coady that ain't nothin to be ashamed of i'm 56 years old ex-marine and hard as nails when it comes to humans but i've dampend the dirt on many a grave sendin my dogs off on that last hunt

I hear ya, with all that stuff I said earlier, it's still hard to not get attached when he does everything you expect of him.

When you haul as much junk to the woods as I have, you appreciate those few good ones! LOL

If yall are "petting or cuddling" the hunt out of your dogs its time to get some better bred dogs!

With that said there is a good middle ground and exceptions but come on.... HUNT is genetics referred to and bred for as "Prey Drive"

WTF Yall!

I tried a different approach this weekend and petted,cuddled,and rubbed bellies while I baby talked to all my dogs to get em warmed up for a hunt.

Now all my dogs are laying around in lawn chairs sipping margaritas and wearing sun shades.  I asked them nicely to go hunt like they usually do but they told me NAH and asked for a refill. So now I have become my dogs new personal assistant and they are making up ON STRIKE SIGNS.

(Guys yall are getting way to serious with this post)

AGAIN WHAT WORKS FOR YOU......WORKS! !!!!!!

hogdogs Is serious business... :o ;D

Maybe you just rubbed them the wrong way. ;D

DANG IT I knew I should have asked more specific questions.  LOL ;D
Now I have a yard full of drunk culls.  :D
All in fun my friends

I need one of those margaritas!!!!

I'll take a couple of em!