EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

although ive never cared for or used a open mouth dog, ive often wondered if a semi open dog mite be better for runnin young dogs with? after they are bayin and ready for the woods would an open dog barkin on track a little get their attention and get the pups goin to them and get them goin to the where the hogs are and catch on? i dont mean a wide open dog or a trashy one but a good solid hog dog thatll bark on track a little and draw the younger ones out to the chase instead of just to a bay...just sounds logical but would it make the pups open too? in reality hogs arent dumb and have a good nose eyes and ears, they know when a dog is on their tail whether its barkin or not, ive never ran an open dog so was just wanting some opinions on it

  I don't care much for open dogs but you bring up a good point. A semi open dog may get a young dog going. But as far as a hog knowing when a dog is coming, Im not sure about that. We have walked right up on a sleeping hog and it never knew we were there because they sleep hard. If  a hog is layed up sleeping, I think that a silent dog is going to get a better jump on him. If the wind is in your favor, you can also slip up on foraging hogs because they are kinda noisy themselves. But an excited open dog can ruin a sneak attack in my opinion. Now before all of the hound guys attack me, let me also state that I know that open dogs find and catch hogs every day. This is simply my take on it.  :-X

i know what u mean, i never really used a sneak approach i dont walk much im kinda lazy lol  ;D but as a whole it just seems kinda logical from the training point of view... you know cody and heath?

Oh, heck no, no walking here.  :D I just meant that if we could sneak up on a hog, Im pretty sure that a dog could also.  ;D  Yea, I know Cody and Heath......I just dont admit it very often.  :D

haha my dogs wont sneak they hit the woods wide open they hear em comin im sure, there pretty rough tho at least    i known cody and heath a while... cody use to hunt with me down in winnie before he ever got his own dogs even, pretty good feller most of the time lol suppose to hunt with me fri nite havent seen him in a few months

 Yea, its been about a month since we have hunted with Cody and about a week since we have hunted with Heath. THey are crazy but will give you the shirt off their backs without hesitation. We been hunting with them for a couple of years now. I give them heck but they are good guys.

If you where just running a semi open dog with just pups that may work, But with that said if there where other dogs in the pack may pull them off of what they where on. JMO most open or semi open dogs are of the the hound class and move a track some what slower than just a plain cur. Exept for the running type hounds that yote and cat people use.As far as sneaking up on hogs I have jump beded hogs and feeding hogs if they are going to run that is just what they are going to do if they are going to stay put that is what they are going to do.

Ya rocking p that's what I was Gettin at, a slower Runnin hound that wouldn't leave the pups in the dust and that would bark and draw them out to it, for pups and trainin purposes is what I'm talkin about, not a pack of open hounds or Runnin open dogs with older dogs

Open because I got enough country for it. If i was hunting smaller places I coud not afford this luxury.

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 Yea, its been about a month since we have hunted with Cody and about a week since we have hunted with Heath. THey are crazy but will give you the shirt off their backs without hesitation. We been hunting with them for a couple of years now. I give them heck but they are good guys.
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I stopped hunting the rice fields about 3yrs ago and they were just startin to get sum dogs together then...haven't seen them much since then, They came huntin at my place couple months ago they had some decent little dogs looked like... Lookin forward to huntin with cody Tomorro nite and do sum catchin up lol

Ever noticed a hound makin cur pups open shep?

I like em silent. I prefer to hunt on foot and was walking with my buddies' rcd when we stumbled upon a 200+ lb boar in some heavy brush.  About 150 yards away at the same time a dog opened up on a track and the rcd took off immediately.  Needless to say I was left staring at the boar with nothing to do except slowly back away.

I only like my Coondogs open everything else better shut up until its lookin at a hog i dont like any of that babblin crap if i hear my dogs they better not be lying

I don't know what you call it but all my dogs chirp soon as they hit a track then go silent till the are facing the hog then all hell breaks loose .  If the hog breaks they will go to chirping as long as they can see the hog then if the hog gets out of there site they will go silent again.  I myself like this that way I know what is going on and which way they are headed.

I will not hunt my dogs with open mouth are even semi open mouth dogs cause all my dogs have some hound in them which is plott some have half some have less and it don't take much to make one go to opening up all the time .  I will pick my dog up immediately if somebody's dogs go to opening up . I had a great little plott dog that was silent most his life then I made the mistake of hunting him with a open  mouth type of dog and he was never the same my fault and it was a lesson learned for me a big big one !

I think being open helps the younger dogs. It definitely easier to get them started that way.. Almost all of the dogs we hunt are open, REAL open  but they're cur dogs not hounds and their speed make up for their mouths because we still catch hogs! I don't agree that it makes a puppy more silent or more open though, it's bred into them..because we still raise silent dogs that grow up hunting with these mouthy ass crows !

im not talking about hunting open mouth dogs im talking about usin them from a pup training perspective ;)

I think id b lookin for a new (rcd) if i was on top of a hog and he ran to another dog for any reason lol  another reason i dont believe in rcds, catch dogs belong on a leash till ur lookin at the hog in my opinion.. sounds like it was a help dog that is just use to goin to a bay but thats another topic all together ;) no offense meant, lol you were wide open for it i couldnt resist ;D ;D ;D

hell whatever you gotta do to catch hogs

catching hogs is main objective, feedin a few dogs thatll do it all is the second... cant afford to feed a help dog or rcd never had a use for em and never will... but thats just me... back on topic tho, i dont think its that bad an idea to put pups with an open mouth dog to show them the ropes, i never have but i can see the benefits kinda??

cold nosed open mouthed hound that opens on cold tracks that the cur pups do not smell or get excited about IMO will teach the pups to not go to a barking dog after a few times of what they percieve is a lying dog...The hound is smelling and trailing a hog but the pups aren't.

I can see where a semi open dog that opens a little on a super hot track or opens a little with excitement when the hog breaks bay can help the pups to get started. The big dogs are calling the pups so to speak.

I am with TexasHogDogs. I like a dog that barks 2 or 3 times when he locates a good track and then shuts up. This calls the other dogs to him. When the hog breaks the dogs open some and then shut up even open a little every now and then is ok for me.

What kind of dogs are these pups and how old are they? Kinda sounds like they are too young or too inexperienced to honor the other dogs.  What happens if you leave them in the dog box where they can hear your older hog dogs baying a hog, do they know to go to the bay up or do they just sit in the dogbox if they can not hear the hog bayed up??  Do you ever hunt horseback or muleback, if you can ride to the dogs the young dogs will learn faster that there is a hog bay at the other end even if they dont know to track or honor another dog baying yet.  I think you have young dogs that dont know yet how to trail up and go find the older hog dogs that might be on a silent hog track or out of hearing, is this what you are asking???  Running a silent dog with any type of open or semi open dog will eventually make it be open or semi open.  Some like it some dont, some dont understand that just because a hound is open it does not make it slow, the trick is to have fast slashing open hounds that run heads up like foxhounds, but a lot of cur people think hounds bable and scare off the hogs, yes, a cull hound babbles and does let hogs let away, but that is a cull hound in the first place.  Some of the best blackmouth curs and catahoulas I ever owned or hunted with back in the day were hunted with and were started with Running walker hounds that ran heads up and were able to close the gap after striking trailing and jumping a hog.  These dogs seperately would not hardly open at all but when my pard with the running walker hog dogs came they all would give mouth, most  silent cur dog type hog hunters today alas never grasp the difference between a good fast heads up foxhound solid broke pack and a pack of cur dogs, of course with tons of hogs everywhere and smaller places they dont work for a lot of people.  Guess it works for some and not for others.

http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=7185.0

http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=11189.0

http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=17664.0

http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=11729.0

tKnightstockerterrier,

you just described how a good cur dog is supposed to hunt...cut and slash with head up to find the hot end of the tracks...with the mindset to catch the game

knightstock, I dont have any young pups at all, im just saying in general... my youngest dog is a yr and a half and dont need much help...the rest are 2.5-6yrs old... i was just curious about it bein beneficial to some extent as in the way reuben said it pretty much nailed it... i can see where they would think of it as a lyin dog, also can see where it would call the pup so to speak... I was basing it on reference to 6-8 month old pups in general...i dont leave young dogs in the box and send them to the bay and dont work with more than one young un at a time they are on the ground by that age and i want them out huntin and was kinda thinkin a semi open dog mite would draw them to the chase as in finding the hog with the older dog as opposed to just hearing a bark and goin to a bay which can end up as help dog material imo if he just goes to bays... I expect them to b findin hogs by a yr old not just goin to another dog bayin while they piddle around... but then again i can see it gettin tired of goin to a bay that aint nothin but a barkin dog on track and it seein it as a lyin dog... both are good points and i am just curious cuz ive always wondered and i cant help but think that it would draw them to the actual chase and before long pull the mouthy dog and let the pup go on its own... like i posted before i dont hunt bay dogs or help dogs, i oughta b able to grab any one dog and a catch dog out of my yard and go catch hogs imo, just how i like em and i think a seasoned dog is a valuabe training tool on younger pups ;) wantin sum input cuz ill have sum pups ready to start next yr and was tryin to open my mind to new tecniques as far as trainin pups just to try something new lol  and i hunt on horses alot, mules are a touchy subject cuz i had one that chose the most inopportune times to act a fool lmao ;D

   I am betting that is just a few of them too.  Use to be a member here from your neck of the woods named hog tied that ran some open mouthed dogs, I think.

once again... im asking about training purposes, not about opinions on open mouth dogs in general, and not about hounds or curs...which looked like what the other 4 posts were about... SEMI OPEN SOLID DOG BENEFITING 6-8MTH OLD PUP... and far as the hounds go i had some dead silent plotts that were dam good dogs, and hunt with a guy occasionally that has a open mouth cur dog...all that is just preference and an invitation to a pissin match, im concerned about the training aspect end of it ;)

 ;D :)

I am a natural when it comes to getting off track... ???

lol u and me both reuben... but your info was very informing ;D i dont wanna start an uprising between houndsmen and curdog guys lol just a serious question i always wondered about ;)

i got a 4 1/2 yr old cur dog that will yip yip n yip on track.stay with 1 till he s out of gas ,long races usually if a hog wants to GO.5 1/2 yr MT curr that aint got the hot nose runs with his heaD up after the cur startedit and will stay with em till hes gassedand beyond .difference of the yippin dog he still aint figureed out his nose dont have to be stuck to the ground once hes gotter goin.just the oppositeonn the MTcur.the cur dog will rig with the best of em but once he comes off,nose to the ground.my brother usd top say HERES YIP N YAP,but they work good together.adog in my opinion is gonna be what hes gonna be you caint train em to be somthin else.yeah i raised a few young dogs with old yip an yap an none of say chit till they lookin :o at a hog.yes noelle i think a yippn dog will get a pup to figure it out.some more than others

thanks tuskbuster... im kinda thinkin it will too, but its something ive never tried

I guess I forgot to say I would not train no young dogs are pups with any kind of open mouthed dog.  I dont care for them but thats just me aint noting wrong with them if you like them but not for me.

so it will likely make the pups b open the rest of their life??

Well man its just hard to say you know.  I have seen it do that make a young cur dog get louded mouth .  Then you got the problem of the open mouth dog on the track and your cur dogs not knowing what the hell is going on tryin to go to the hound thinking he is baying .  I hunted with one open mouhted Walker dog one time and that was enuff for me .  He had my dogs so cornfused they didnt know which end was up are down .

As a matter of fact he was down at the river just a whaling back and fourth on a track at the waters edge and me and Tom were high up on the bank about a 50 foot bank could not see the hound are were he was at down there and he was bawling so loud that it was echoing coming off the other side of the river  and he had my dogs trying to swim the river to try and get to him they thought the echo's was  him on the other side of the river baying a hog .

I finaly got my dogs back to the wheeler and I loaded them up and told the guy look if you gonna hunt that Walker dogs my dogs are going to the trailer are if you want you can put him up and we will hunt my dogs but there is no way am putting my dogs back on the ground with him.

Yeah I pissed the guy off .  Needless to say  we hunted his dog and some others he had never got a thing those dogs had every hog with end two miles running like hell to the other side of the county !

So my advies to you is either hunt silent type dogs with a few chirps are go to hunting open mouth dogs because running the two together the two dont mix its like gasoline and matches !

haha... the few chirps was kinda what i was talkin about i wouldnt consider a wide open mouth lol

I have hunted open, silent, and semi.  I think a hotter nosed dog that opens every now and then would definitely help your pups. I think that a dogs gonna do what hes gonna do. Had dogs that started out open, but learned to be silent. I also know that it would learn the pups to be more rangey, and possibly trail colder tracks.
    I have started dogs that wouldn't get out of sight, but after a few times of going to and trailing with those barking dogs, "that had the meat" start Rollin on out on their own.
   I have seen alot of young dogs that people thought were mouthing on track, but in fact were Babbling, cause they couldn't keep up with older dogs, and I think this causes alot of the open cur dogs. Being started too young. This is one reason I like to wait til mine are old enough or able to keep up.
I know several that run both together, and their curs are silent

Noelle, Yea the other day a guy had four young curs out at once for some reason. My walker gyp opened and it sounded like a pack of coyotes chasing her.When I say open im not talking about a walking bawling hound. Im talking about one striking a track letting you know it,then work it out then open again when they can run on that track. But to most on here that is way too much. TexasHogDogs ive read your post in the past and think you have some good dogs. So when you you get ready to cull one of them open dogs let me know. Im into papered plotts now so that leaves out a lot of really good dogs. But one day I will have a pack to be proud of. If I live long enough and dont run out of funds or room.I just read TnHB post before i got mine posted and that is what these young dogs where doing babbling and behind.

My buddy got a blue tick strike dog that wasn't supposed to bark on track :). Rueben nailed the lying dog comment. Well we let her out and about 50 yards that blue tick started baying we let catch dogs out catch dogs finally caught up cause we saw the blue tick come out the brush bArking on the road and my catch dogs finally just quit and ran back to the truck like they were pissed for being lied to lol.  We have neverhunted with a dog that did that and it didn't take long for the other dogs to learn not to respond to a babbling hound like most of yall say O0. It was cool to hear home bark for 4 miles though lol

I look at the hog Bayed before I turn the catch dog loose 99% of the time so that really wouldn't b an issue...
Exactly what I was thinking Thomas... I'm betting it would get them ranging out farther, get them in the race and learn to stick with it instead of lettin the pups go to a bay which alot of folks do, I don't see it making them open as well if they are outta silent dogs to begin with... Despite popular opinion I think training has a good bit to do with a dog, I don't believe it's all linebreeding that makes great dogs so I intend to experiment with a good linebred longer range type Cur pup outta good lines and just a plain Ol Cur pup with no credentials and let the high bred one go on his own and make a dog just off his breeding and minimal training and I'm gonna work and train the s&@t eater and see which makes the better dog, for my own reference. And I think the semi open hound will make the other pup excell and put the bottom and range into him that wasn't bred into him. I'm not worried about the catch dog or adult dogs Bein a factor my thoughts are just of the young dogs, yr old or less

Seems as a whole open dogs are not desired by most, but from what I have gathered from a pup training perspective a semi open dog could b beneficial. Thanks for all the input guys...Lookin forward to more opinions before I decide for sure what I should do but so far been pretty helpful ;D

99% of the time, a young pup (if it's going to hunt at all) will stay with the older dogs.  They should be there when they strike.  A young pup that leaves with the old dogs, then comes back has an automatic mark against it in my book.  I've seen pups be on the ground when the older dogs strike in the distance.  Pups just kept running around playing not knowing what the barking was about.  If they don't know to go to a bay, why are they going to run off chasing a trail barking dog?

Heck...bulldogs have to be trained to go to a bay.

I remember that fella... if I recall correctly, he didn't last on here very long. ;)

Ya Bryant bulldogs ONLY go to a bay too... Who wants to train a pup to just go to a bay? That's why there's so many help dogs in the world today... Pups should first bay a hog on their own a few times, watch other pups bay a time or two, then they should b fired up enough over a hog to put the bark and the oink together as an objective... And b ready to hit the woods and b taught to find hogs, then bay them... I think it's a waste of time to put going to a bay before learning to go hunt... I don't want a dog that quits a track just cuz another dog bays, that's a help dog;) if hes just out huntin and hears a bark thats one thing and most no whats at the end of a track and naturally go to a baying dog... But not many that know to bay know how to put it at the end of the track... As pups...guess we have different objectives but I raise my dogs to b independent. Jmo

Here in the hill country where i hunt i like a dog to open up 3 or 4 times when they hit a track it just makes my dogs pull togather better and pack up. When my dogs smell a hog they fan out trying to find where the hog went if you got dogs scattered out over 250 300 yards looking for where the hog left out and you got a dog to give a little mouth when he hits where he is suppose to it pulls them together ihate dogs scattered out chasing there own hogs. Here where i hunt there are so many obstacles for young dogs to get around like up bluff steep ledges where the young dogs get behind and if you got one thats gives a little mouth it keeps them intrested and movin forward. So yes i like to start mine with a dog that gives little mouth thats puts ahog at the end of it not a blabbing idiot that dont drive a track and stays right there trailing around ;)

Mike are you implying that I too won't last very long on here? I share my opinion same as everyone else here and have different opinions same as all them... I would b disappointed if you were discriminating against me because u and me share different views on a couple things... I don't think I have done anything to qualify to b culled from the site but if I have let me know what I did wrong that nobody else does. If I'm off track here I apologize

Probably so.  I breed mine to be that way.

a natural born hunting dog is born independent. I strongly believe it...

I bred and tested for it and incouraged it in the pups.

Hardest thing to try and breed out was semi open. :)

Lol I'm confused.. U breed them to b independent then train them to go to a bay???

Good point reuben

i have ran open dogs  in a spot were there runners.
i seen pigs hide in thick stuff and dogs run right passed on trails.
open doesnt mean they wont ctch hogs.

my recent dogs are silent but
i would hunt open dogs all day llong

only problem i have is i never know when there bayed or right on one.

 


I dont get this whole post, if you have hunted with hounds they definely have a changover from trailing to baying???  Why did the dogs you hunted with never have a changeover???

I'm sayin to the other dogs. The help dogs didn't know wat was goin on

You mean wide open dogs or semi? Surely they have a different bay than trail bark?

Yes open dogs   My help dogs get all confused and will stop honoring lol
Sorry for confusing


But my final decision is

If ur catching pigs.  Don't change nothing!!