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Title: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Mike on July 25, 2011, 10:18:43 am Every now and then I hear someone say that training is the most important factor in making a hog dog over genetics.
What are yall's thoughts? How do you train a dog to go out 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, a mile, looking for a hog? How do you train a dog to take a track and stay with it until the hog is found? How do you train a dog to stay with a running hog for many miles and many hours until it's bayed? That's all genetics to me, you can't train the hunt, drive and bottom into a dog. Putting a handle on your dog and trash breaking is the only training involved in my opinion. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: TShelly on July 25, 2011, 10:28:45 am I totally agree Mike.!!!! Being a novice and not understanding how genetics played a role when I began hunting about about 6 years ago, it was all about color and looks for me. Blue eyed cats and pretty color!! I felt that with enough time and experience you could train them to be hog dogs. Well I'll tell you right now my first 3 catahoulas were culls do to their genetic lacking. We used to hunt even more than we do now and I put those dogs on 100's and 100's of hogs with big E's and other peoples fiinished dogs. All they ever amounted to were good bay or help dogs..
Fast Forward 5 years: I have now immersed myself into a proven bloodline and have pups that are finding hogs under a year old, 9 month old pups that will run a track for 2 hours with the old dogs. Ive found the hard way that genetics play a superior roll in the make up of hog dog. Plain and simple... Dont get me wrong though, I believe that LOTS of hogs and "training" can make a dog better.. but only if the genetic make up and want to are bred into that dog Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: txhogsanddogs on July 25, 2011, 10:30:11 am That's my opinion as well. I hunt one finshed dog, and what i mean by finished is not a coon dog, bird dog, cat dog, or any kind of TRASH dog on the ground and hunt usually 2 pups with just one finished. Mine have always followed in the foot steps of the father running and hunting and the ones that dog go back to Wal-Mart! >:D JMO
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: ric.o on July 25, 2011, 10:30:42 am Genetics first,proper exposure second.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: cajunl on July 25, 2011, 11:16:28 am My opinion is
average genetics + exceptional training = a good dog exceptional genetics + marginal training = good dog Exceptional genetics + Exceptional training= exceptional dog By training I think it is more than sit and stay, But trips to the woods and exposure more than anything. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: BobbyB on July 25, 2011, 11:29:52 am My opinion is any one or anything can be trained and learn the mechanics of how to do something. But to take that training and have people talk about how great that something is being done requires a God given ability deep down inside, that applies to animals and people. Just look at great ball players, race horses, painters, champion bird dogs and on and on.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 11:32:53 am this topic is prone for some differences of opinion... so no offense meant here...any dog that is exposed to a hog enough and taught to want a hog bad enough or ran with a dog with bottom and range and such will pick it up. Its not very hard to teach a dog range and bottom and to find hogs, if you have the skills to do it ;) you can take a young dog that wont even leave your side and pen it up with a long range dog for a couple weeks and the young dog will roll out with that dog 9 out of 10 times and pick up that range, same with the bottom and drive and all that. ask yourself out of all the dogs with so called great genetics how many young dogs just naturally do it on their own, without puttin them with another dog? Are they put all by theirself till they are old enough to hunt then just turn them loose all by theirself and they have the range and bottom and go bay hogs and from then on they just have to be taught not to run trash and to handle right? thatll actually do it and prove it instead just posting that they will? its a mindset that just cuz it has good blood it has to b the blood makin it such a great dog and not the training or other dogs its huntin with rubbin off on them...I been raisin dogs a long time and i like breedin for genetics and traits within a bloodline, but the fact of the matter is you can go spend alot of money on a finished dog and hunt a total $h!t eater with that dog and make a top dog out it if you had the desire to do it. breedin one or two dogs that you happen to get that are decent dogs is not breeding genetics or desired traits, 2 or 3 generations of dogs are not gonna b (line bred) and a top breeding program where you have natural talent every time with little or no culls, more luck than anything although there are some older lines that have far higher percentages... 20-30+ yr old lines, too many people luck up on a decent dog these days and start their own (line) of dogs and have no idea what they are doin or if that decent dog was the only decent dog from the litter or anything else. theres a few good guys on here that know what they are doin and talkin about, and alot of people that base their opinion on the popular opinion or what a certain person thinks to get brownie points, im sure my opinion is not the popular opinion and if it was then nobody would say so but a real dog man can make a top notch dog out of nothing as well as breed one to have it in his blood...genetics can raise percentages, bring pride to your pack, and make you proud of them, its a great theory and hobby, and i been breedin genetics a long time, but a good dog is born, a great dog is made ;D JMO
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: TShelly on July 25, 2011, 11:46:46 am Quote Insert Quote this topic is prone for some differences of opinion... so no offense meant here...any dog that is exposed to a hog enough and taught to want a hog bad enough or ran with a dog with bottom and range and such will pick it up. Its not very hard to teach a dog range and bottom and to find hogs, if you have the skills to do it you can take a young dog that wont even leave your side and pen it up with a long range dog for a couple weeks and the young dog will roll out with that dog 9 out of 10 times and pick up that range, same with the bottom and drive and all that. ask yourself out of all the dogs with so called great genetics how many young dogs just naturally do it on their own, without puttin them with another dog? Are they put all by theirself till they are old enough to hunt then just turn them loose all by theirself and they have the range and bottom and go bay hogs and from then on they just have to be taught not to run trash and to handle right? thatll actually do it and prove it instead just posting that they will? its a mindset that just cuz it has good blood it has to b the blood makin it such a great dog and not the training or other dogs its huntin with rubbin off on them...I been raisin dogs a long time and i like breedin for genetics and traits within a bloodline, but the fact of the matter is you can go spend alot of money on a finished dog and hunt a total $h!t eater with that dog and make a top dog out it if you had the desire to do it. breedin one or two dogs that you happen to get that are decent dogs is not breeding genetics or desired traits, 2 or 3 generations of dogs are not gonna b (line bred) and a top breeding program where you have natural talent every time with little or no culls, more luck than anything although there are some older lines that have far higher percentages... 20-30+ yr old lines, too many people luck up on a decent dog these days and start their own (line) of dogs and have no idea what they are doin or if that decent dog was the only decent dog from the litter or anything else. theres a few good guys on here that know what they are doin and talkin about, and alot of people that base their opinion on the popular opinion or what a certain person thinks to get brownie points, im sure my opinion is not the popular opinion and if it was then nobody would say so but a real dog man can make a top notch dog out of nothing as well as breed one to have it in his blood...genetics can raise percentages, bring pride to your pack, and make you proud of them, its a great theory and hobby, and i been breedin genetics a long time, but a good dog is born, a great dog is made JMO we may have to send you a few of our lower tiered cull dogs for you to finish out for us :) the ones that cant hang with our long range, long bottomed dogs because of their lack of want or genetically bred characteristics Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: halfbreed on July 25, 2011, 11:52:11 am you can train any dog to do any thing well but genetics makes the training easyer and faster . i can get ya grannys 13 year old half blind poodle to run a line and bay .
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 25, 2011, 11:57:38 am I totally agree Mike.!!!! Being a novice and not understanding how genetics played a role when I began hunting about about 6 years ago, it was all about color and looks for me. Blue eyed cats and pretty color!! I felt that with enough time and experience you could train them to be hog dogs. Well I'll tell you right now my first 3 catahoulas were culls do to their genetic lacking. We used to hunt even more than we do now and I put those dogs on 100's and 100's of hogs with big E's and other peoples fiinished dogs. All they ever amounted to were good bay or help dogs.. Fast Forward 5 years: I have now immersed myself into a proven bloodline and have pups that are finding hogs under a year old, 9 month old pups that will run a track for 2 hours with the old dogs. Ive found the hard way that genetics play a superior roll in the make up of hog dog. Plain and simple... Dont get me wrong though, I believe that LOTS of hogs and "training" can make a dog better.. but only if the genetic make up and want to are bred into that dog X2... Btw all the pups died.. HEAT got em i tried everything Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 11:58:48 am im by no means sayin there arent culls... if the time and effort has been put into them for a decent time then they oughta b culled. just depends how much time ur willin to put into one before u give up on it.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 25, 2011, 12:06:52 pm i have had dogs from ppl who culled them. she had the bloodline so i took her.
i train all my dogs in the woods. i got here at 6 months. let her get use to me. now she is 1 1/2 and she hunts her a$$ off. she is a red cur. she will stop a runner and will hunt out with the best of them. alot of ppl dont give a dog a chance. i have seen ppl cull a dog after 10wks. i have also had a lander/ weatherford ben cross dog guy didnt like his look. he had the lines but he turned on the first pig i put him on. but got hit and he never bayed again. he was 14months its the dog not the line. its the heart and the desire Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: johnie on July 25, 2011, 12:17:49 pm Centex, I've always heard one man's trash is anothers treasure. My trash rarely makes it out of the yard.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 25, 2011, 12:19:10 pm yea same here. i will give a dog i cull away to someone just wanting dogs to get started.
now if there culled completly then they dont leave yard. :) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: make-em-squeel on July 25, 2011, 12:54:01 pm I have to say you are spot on Mike. Genetics are the primary reason why dogs are what they are.
Take a step back and look on a bigger level and thats why bird dogs point, hounds track, heelers etc. Of coarse training and socializing are needed but your not going to "train" a reproduceable dog! Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 01:08:33 pm Centex, I've always heard one man's trash is anothers treasure. My trash rarely makes it out of the yard. how true... i got sum dam good culls outta ur yard that made top $ dogs over the years lol. ;D.. but without a doubt ur the hardest cullin man i ever known ;DTitle: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 01:13:36 pm The 2 main things a hogdog has to have is Want To and HUNT and unfortunately those are the 2 things you just can't train into a dog.. If you could train a dog to have drive and want to then the cops wouldn't buy
10,000 dollar malinois dogs from germany, bird hunters wouldn't pay ridiculous amounts of money for pointers and god knows we wouldn't pay 3-5,000 for hogdogs. We would all just pick up a free dog and "train" it to do whatever we wanted. There is a BIG difference in training a dog to load up or sit or jump and "training" a dog to hunt hogs.. Anybody that thinks they can train a dog to hunt, find, run and bay hogs I will drive to your house and stop on the way and pick up every stray I see and in one year I will pay you $2500 for every dog that you make a hogdog out of. Not only that, I will bring you the ones I cull off my yard that are linebred off hogdogs for 4 generations and will give you $3000 for every one you train into a hogdog.. No way you can lose.. Now with that being said there are definitely certain people who are just natural dogmen and can get more out of a hogdog... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 25, 2011, 01:26:35 pm I'll take that deal :)
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 01:27:52 pm in theory, i think all true cur dogs had it way back in the day, its the cross breeding and tryin this with that and a touch of hound and a bit of bulldog and all the folks tryin to start lines and inbreeding cuz they gotta couple good dogs they think they can just breed and reproduce the same dog trying to make superdogs...this has bred out alot of the good traits in the true cur dog which is why today so many people have to cull so hard that know what their doin and its such a chore to have good cur dogs repetitively... shoulda just left them alone in my opinion... cuz the true 20-30+ year old lines that remain true cur dogs are a rare breed but also the ones that still have what it takes to make the cut. fact is boys they didnt need improving till people started trying to improve them ;) the real dogs are capable of throwing the genetics for natural talent, but most of the dog breedin programs today are a daydream of makin a superdog... not singlin nobody out and the ones who understand what im saying wont be offended, the ones that are in search of superdogs mite get offended and thats not my intention at all so i apologize in advance for anyone that gets offended :)
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: treeingratterrier on July 25, 2011, 01:29:00 pm The 2 main things a hogdog has to have is Want To and HUNT and unfortunately those are the 2 things you just can't train into a dog.. If you could train a dog to have drive and want to then the cops wouldn't buy 10,000 dollar malinois dogs from germany, bird hunters wouldn't pay ridiculous amounts of money for pointers and god knows we wouldn't pay 3-5,000 for hogdogs. We would all just pick up a free dog and "train" it to do whatever we wanted. There is a BIG difference in training a dog to load up or sit or jump and "training" a dog to hunt hogs.. Anybody that thinks they can train a dog to hunt, find, run and bay hogs I will drive to your house and stop on the way and pick up every stray I see and in one year I will pay you $2500 for every dog that you make a hogdog out of. Not only that, I will bring you the ones I cull off my yard that are linebred off hogdogs for 4 generations and will give you $3000 for every one you train into a hogdog.. No way you can lose.. Now with that being said there are definitely certain people who are just natural dogmen and can get more out of a hogdog... I wish i had a dollar for every dog that was a stray or came out of a dog pound that was trained to be a hog dog in south texas before the web....be a huge pile..... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 01:29:48 pm Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 01:48:39 pm Just let me know where to send the dogs. If you fail I want the gas money back it cost me to get them to you...I also know of 3 people right now that will pay $3000 for a sure enough dog. Just let me know when you get 3 trained..
And I have a question, if you can train any dog to hunt and bay hogs then wny are you not already doing it and raking in the money? There are countless dogs culled every year that I'm sure would love to be trained into hogdogs and also plenty of people that would love to buy them.. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 01:51:40 pm I wish i had a dollar for every dog that was a stray or came out of a dog pound that was trained to be a hog dog in south texas before the web....be a huge pile..... I wish I had a dollar for every stray or dog in the pound that was not... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 01:56:08 pm I wish i had a dollar for every dog that was a stray or came out of a dog pound that was trained to be a hog dog in south texas before the web....be a huge pile..... I wish I had a dollar for every stray or dog in the pound that was not... X 2 Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 01:56:19 pm GENETICS make the difference between average joe and a world class athlete.PERIOD!!!
Sure my buddy in high school that was 6'5" 310#s worked as hard as we did at practice but was just a linemen and coach never gave him the ball for a reason No speed. 20 yrs ago whitetail breeders were striving to produce 200" deer now today they have already produced deer that score over 300"s all from genetics. How many people wanting to raise a kentucky derby winner shop at the local sale barn for a colt? How many redneck hillbillies are running for president? Im one myself. Mike made a great statement "You can not teach a dog to hunt or to stay with a running hog" They must have the drive to want to go the extra mile. Most people dont understand genetics and the ones that do consistantly produce good dogs over and over.PERIOD!! Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 25, 2011, 01:56:58 pm X2 that one lol
But were u from Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 02:15:03 pm Matter of fact, I have often wondered why none of these dog trainers are capitalizing on the hogdog market today.. There are more and more people hog hunting everyday and less and less good hogdogs around it seems. A few of these dog trainers could combine thier abilities and make it rich off training and selling hogdogs. There are so many different styles of dogs that people like for different situations and areas. So you could train all different types of hogdogs for all these different people and the money would never stop rolling in. Long range dogs, short range dogs, cold nosed dogs, hot nosed dogs, silent dogs, open mouth dogs, rough dogs, baydogs, catchdogs, running catch dogs, etc . etc.. You could even put out your own magazine that you could charge for with all these different types of dogs and people could just order whatever kind of dog they wanted. Or they could just pay you to train their own dog or any dog of their choice. The best part is you would have a never ending supply of FREE dogs to train, it would be pure profit except for dog food. Well no, that would be free too, just think of all the dog food companies that would PAY you to use their feed and advertise with you. I tell yall the opportunities are endless here boys. You would be bigger than Sears..
I want my cut for giving yall the idea... ;) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 02:28:30 pm there has been lotta money made on my end from training culls... im no longer a dog trader tho.
sure good dogs can be bred by someone that knows what their doin, but there are still no guarantees and theres still culls. just like any old dog mite throw a couple good ones but theres still culls...alot of good dogs are culled because they arent given the chance or they come around slow and alot are not culled that should be cuz they are pretty or cuz of other preferences... hard to reproduce consistently that way... if its all in the genetics then why are there still culls in renowned bloodlines?????? If its all in the genetics then there is a glitch in the program if there are any culls at all... a bloodline that will produce range and drive and hunt and bottom strictly off of genetics and no training should be solid enough to never produce a cull if thats the case. we are talkin about genetics here so where does the cull gene come from? If its bred into half the litter why didnt the other half get it bred into them so they didnt have to be culled??? thats a pretty tough question to get a reasonable answer for, because its not all genetics, genetics raise percentages of havin good dogs, they dont just automatically make good dogs ;) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: USHOG on July 25, 2011, 02:33:46 pm How do you train a dog to go out 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, a mile, looking for a hog? First you must help the dog along with its prey drive. Build this and you will find that most dogs will hunt their butts off. Teach them to use their noses at a very early age. Personally I do not want a dog that hunts out over 500 or 600 yards. I prefere 200 to 300 yards out. I prefere dogs that stop the hog quickly but this is also because we have way to many hogs where we hunt and is one of the main reasons I have been slowly switching to all dogo teams. They track better, wind better, and very few hogs get away. I am compairing them to my curs. How do you train a dog to take a track and stay with it until the hog is found? Start out with short tracks and build from there. This takes much more time than most people will commit to their dogs to accomplish. This should be started at a very early age 3 or 4 weeks old. Constant reward for preforming this task corectly is a benafet. Food is probably the biggest assest I have. work the dog hard and then feed them. Make sure the dog is working for you. How do you train a dog to stay with a running hog for many miles and many hours until it's bayed? This is all about prey drive. Some dogs have it and some dont either way you can build upon what the dog has to make him better That's all genetics to me, you can't train the hunt, drive and bottom into a dog. I agree that genetics help but I have seen many great bred dogs that were worthless and I have seen many mutts that turned out to be great hunters. I will say that good bred dogs have a higher chance of becoming good hunters you are right but you can amplify these traits with how you raise (train) your dog The problem I see most of the time is that people do not keep their dogs is great physical shape but they still expect the dog to perform at a high level every time. If a dog is not in top shape he has no chance unless he gets lucky to keep up with the hog much less stop him. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Bryant on July 25, 2011, 02:42:42 pm I'm of personal belief that genetics are 100% what makes the dog. As far as training, I look at that kind of reversed in that what I do is try like heck not to un-do or hinder what genetics has put in place. I will also say good genetics without exposure will amount to nothing. The best bred dog in the world won't be worth $.02 if he/she spends their life sitting in a kennel.
I'm a bit curious just like Mike, though. Hear all the time people saying good training can sure enough make any dog as good as the next, yet no one has ever been able to explain to me even ONE of these "good training" techniques. I'd be all ears if someone can tell me how to take a complete #2-eater and make that dog into a rangy hunting, tons of bottom dog. Sure would save me lots of trouble, as I really dislike raising puppies. If I knew some of these good techniques, I'd just go pull a dog out of the pound when I needed one. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 02:47:28 pm There is culls in every litter.
Every great trainer rather it be dog,horse,boxing,etc... will agree that it all starts with genetics and you are 3 steps ahead of the competition we you start with good genetics. No matter how hard I trained I could never run a 4 flat 40 or a 10 flat 100. This topic can very so many different opinions. I've always said "most people dont know what a great dog is because they have never been around one or muchless owned one" If a dog found a hog one time and barked at it dont make him a great hog dog. There are some great dogs that pop up here and there but consistantly producing good dogs,deer,horses,people there is NO Substitution to genetics. I have a buddy thats a dog trainer and pretty good at it. He has had 100's of dogs brought to him for training and you CAN NOT TRAIN THE WILL TO HUNT in a dog! Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 02:53:41 pm then why are there culls in well reknowned bloodlines?????? how come all the pups with the same genetics dont have the same drive, hunt, nose, bottom etc????? if its all genetics then why are there culls????
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 02:56:25 pm Nothing is ever 100% guaranteed, most people know that. It's all about percentages and if you want to make the most of your time and efforts to get a high percentage of good hogdogs then it's all about genetics and breeding a line, and CULLING ....
We all know of a stray dog someone found somewhere or one that came wandering up in your yard that made a decent dog but like I said before don't expect to breed the dog and get a bunch of hogdogs. Also when I say hogdog I don't mean a dog that will bark at a hog or run ten minutes or go to another dog thats barking. I can "train" about 99 out of 100 of the dogs I raise to do that.. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 02:57:48 pm well bryant like i have said before, i wanna see the 6 or 8 month old pup thatll go a mile and bay hogs consistently all alone... cuz it dont happen, they mite do it with another older seasoned dog, which answers your question, a solid older dog to mentor the younger dogs is the best training aid you can use ;)
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 03:02:40 pm Nothing is ever 100% guaranteed, most people know that. It's all about percentages and if you want to make the most of your time and efforts to get a high percentage of good hogdogs then it's all about genetics and breeding a line, and CULLING .... We all know of a stray dog someone found somewhere or one that came wandering up in your yard that made a decent dog but like I said before don't expect to breed the dog and get a bunch of hogdogs. Also when I say hogdog I don't mean a dog that will bark at a hog or run ten minutes or go to another dog thats barking. I can "train" about 99 out of 100 of the dogs I raise to do that.. good point, dont expect to breed a bunch of stray dogs and end up with all hog dogs, but theres a chance u will have a couple good dogs out the bunch... same as genetically sound dogs, not all of them make it there are still culls...so where do the culls come from in a good line and where do the good ones come from in a bad line????? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 03:08:00 pm You know I just thought about something else these trainers wouldn't be limited to just dogs either..
Think about the money that could be made on them poor horses that people are just turning loose now because they shut down the slaughter houses that Chance wrote about. No tellin how many Kentucky Derby winning horses are just wandering around right now waiting to be "trained"... ;) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: cantexduck on July 25, 2011, 03:09:22 pm I'll take that deal :) I live out side of Florence. I have a cur that I can't get to bay. How long do you need with him? Shoot me a reasonable time frame and dollar amount. I don't think you can get him to bay and hunt. Momma to him is known. To be a very very long range dog. Don't know much about the sire but the grand sire is a dog named buck now called cash. Momma was a dog called the blue eyed gyp. When do you want to meet? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Bryant on July 25, 2011, 03:10:25 pm then why are there culls in well reknowned bloodlines?????? how come all the pups with the same genetics dont have the same drive, hunt, nose, bottom etc????? if its all genetics then why are there culls???? Simple...and here's the two reasons. 1) Because the genetics are never the exact SAME. The idea of linebreeding is to narrow the gene pool, but you can never narrow the gene pool to the point of all dogs being genetically identical. That would be termed cloning. In simple terms, health reasons dictate that the genepool must be somewhat diverse and as such the progeny will be likewise. The goal of any breeding program should be better than average, and more consistancy among the pups. You can have litters of consistantly crappy pups just as easy as consistant good ones. Anyone who claims they are producing litters with no culls, will be trying to sell you a pup in the next breath. 2) Because everyone's definition of cull is a little different. I've hunted with plenty of people over the years who were plenty proud of their dogs...ones that I personally wouldn't feed. (And probably likewise). But if they're happy and catching hogs...that's all that really matters. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 03:11:45 pm Opinions are like buttholes everyone has one and most stink.
Hogdoggers usually have the largest. You folks that don't think genetics are very much the makeup of most great dogs than keep buying them $30 pups and waisting 2 yrs of feed and your time on something thats never gonna be what you want. If having 30 dogs tied to every tree in a yard and telling everyone you have 30 hog dogs is your deal than go for it. I will keep my money on genetics and keep producing proven stock where in a couple of yrs look back and say I have something and not flooding this site with all my culls. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 03:15:20 pm How do you train a dog to stay with a running hog for many miles and many hours until it's bayed? This is all about prey drive. Some dogs have it and some dont either way you can build upon what the dog has to make him better Exactly some dogs have it and some don't. if you could train it then somebody would be doin it... I agree you can build on it but only if it is there to begin with.. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 03:16:35 pm well chainrated were not talkin bout horses thats a whole other arguement lol :D Im curious as to why there is culls from a line that just hunts outstanding off genetics alone... if the genetics are that strong in that theory there would be no culls
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 03:18:29 pm well chainrated were not talkin bout horses thats a whole other arguement lol :D Im curious as to why there is culls from a line that just hunts outstanding off genetics alone... if the genetics are that strong in that theory there would be no culls With that statement it don't seem like you been fooling with dogs as long as you say you have....there are culls in all performane animals,good genetics help reduce the cull percentage. (no offence intended) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 03:26:32 pm Opinions are like buttholes everyone has one and most stink. any pups on my yard are raised there, got 9 dogs on my yard, 2 outside dogs outta proven bloodlines, a catch dog, a full finished birddog, and the rest are line bred at my house and have been tight bred for close to 40 yrs, and i feel safe saying i own hog dogs. dont raise a bunch of pups till i need some and have plenty culls afterwards. I play around with outcrosses and such from time to time same as most but i have been around enough dogs to safely say genetics give higher percentages but it wont make an outstanding dog all by itselfHogdoggers usually have the largest. You folks that don't think genetics are very much the makeup of most great dogs than keep buying them $30 pups and waisting 2 yrs of feed and your time on something thats never gonna be what you want. If having 30 dogs tied to every tree in a yard and telling everyone you have 30 hog dogs is your deal than go for it. I will keep my money on genetics and keep producing proven stock where in a couple of yrs look back and say I have something and not flooding this site with all my culls. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 03:28:02 pm Real simple.
You can make a pot of soup with great ingredence like beef ,chicken,etc... and fine tune it with all the spices in the world and you will have yourself a great pot of soup this is genetics. Or you can put a turd in the pot and pour all the same great ingredence in it and stir your arms off and at the end of the day you still have a Turd. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 03:29:15 pm With that statement it don't seem like you been fooling with dogs as long as you say you have....there are culls in all performane animals,good genetics help reduce the cull percentage. (no offence intended) It's just that simple, Genetics reduce the cull percentage . Like I said it's all about percentages. There will always be culls no matter how good a breeding program you have or how good a trainer you are. About the only people that will try to claim no culls are dog jockeys... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 25, 2011, 03:31:35 pm Kessling kennels
I got a gyp I'll put against about any dog! So u acting like just cause ppl get villa to train Then they won't have hog dogs.. Well I have made few culls great dogs One of my best was a catahoula who had no hunting In his blood at all! Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 03:34:49 pm any pups on my yard are raised there, got 9 dogs on my yard, 2 outside dogs outta proven bloodlines, a catch dog, a full finished birddog, and the rest are line bred at my house and have been tight bred for close to 40 yrs, and i feel safe saying i own hog dogs. LOL.. So your dogs are linebred? And have been for 40 yrs? Why? Surely not for genetics.. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 03:37:04 pm well chainrated were not talkin bout horses thats a whole other arguement lol :D Im curious as to why there is culls from a line that just hunts outstanding off genetics alone... if the genetics are that strong in that theory there would be no culls With that statement it don't seem like you been fooling with dogs as long as you say you have....there are culls in all performane animals,good genetics help reduce the cull percentage. (no offence intended) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 03:42:06 pm any pups on my yard are raised there, got 9 dogs on my yard, 2 outside dogs outta proven bloodlines, a catch dog, a full finished birddog, and the rest are line bred at my house and have been tight bred for close to 40 yrs, and i feel safe saying i own hog dogs. LOL.. So your dogs are linebred? And have been for 40 yrs? Why? Surely not for genetics.. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 25, 2011, 03:43:41 pm I not sayin genetics don't play role
I'm sayin u can get a good dog by training A good dog by breading. Or bad dog by training Bad by breading There is never a def answer It's trial and error.. Like I said EVERY DOG is different no matter bread or bloodline Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 03:45:53 pm Im not call out anyone.
I have several great dogs myself,I have been fortuate enough in my life that I can afford what I want. I have a YBMC that showed up at my ranch that would not look at a hog and now after 2 yrs worth of pounding him in a hogs face He is a decent dog.Total training no will own his own. My point to all is If you really studied genetics you would learn that the Percentage of getting a dog thats less desirable are alot less with good genetics ,rather than breeding to dogs that you think would make a cute couple. I have nothing to prove to anyone I own some really good dogs and have paid the price and done the stupid rookie mistakes as well. If I would have started with the genetics from the begining I would have acheived my goal sooner in life. Centex-That gyp must have had some desired genetic from something or she would not be as good as you say. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 03:47:59 pm Real simple. lmao cant help but like that breakdown on it ;DYou can make a pot of soup with great ingredence like beef ,chicken,etc... and fine tune it with all the spices in the world and you will have yourself a great pot of soup this is genetics. Or you can put a turd in the pot and pour all the same great ingredence in it and stir your arms off and at the end of the day you still have a Turd. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Noah on July 25, 2011, 03:49:06 pm Ahhh... excellent debate gentlemen!! Home recovering from a looong wknd offshore... and just couldn't resist jumpin' into this one... ;D
The reason this is on the mind is because it is not a cut and dry subject... LOTS of variables... one might even go so far as to say infinitely... Genetics, OBVIOUSLY, play a HUGE role to the extent of a dog "wanting" to hunt, or "wanting" to please his master... and there is a HUGE difference in the two... Any hunter should strive to start off with the best genetic specimen available... but never overlook an animal because he might not be out of "superlines". Those same "superlines" were created by people that picked out certain genetics from unknown dogs and concentrated them. As most of you know, I am of the trainer's view on this and I will leave it at that... All you can do is try and breed a dog to want to/physically be able to... and training/exposure is, in my opinion, what takes them to the next level from there... along with a hell of a lot of luck... ;) ;D BTW, I tend to agree with most noelle and USHOG are sayin'.... noelle, where you out of? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Silverton Boar Dogs on July 25, 2011, 03:50:07 pm Training can make a dog, but hunting style and bay style comes from genetics.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 03:53:48 pm Training can make a dog, but hunting style and bay style comes from genetics. I second that one! Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: grunterhunter8 on July 25, 2011, 03:54:08 pm Kessling kennels I got a gyp I'll put against about any dog! So u acting like just cause ppl get villa to train Then they won't have hog dogs.. Well I have made few culls great dogs One of my best was a catahoula who had no hunting In his blood at all! If he was a catahoula, then he had hunting in his blood...I think the question is redundant. Genetics are the key to everything. You can't train a dog to do anything unless it possesses the genetic potential to do so. Those arguing that training is more important are just arguing for genetics. If a dog hunts a mile out without ever being "trained" to hunt a mile out, this is genetic. If you were somehow able to "train" a dog to hunt a mile out, well then you were only able to do so because the dog had the genetic ability to hunt a mile out...On the other hand, you can't train dogs to fly...Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Lots of variables to consider, but genetics and certain genetic traits are easier to control for/isolate when considering the determining factor for how/why a dog performs. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 03:58:11 pm I not sayin genetics don't play role well said, no doubt it raises percentages, but the topic is saying genetics alone make every aspect of a dog except the handling and trash breaking which is just not true and only someone new to raising pups could think it is in my opinion, yes there is a better chance of genetics making a outstanding dog opposed to just a good dog... but does anyone really believe that genetics alone can make, train, and finish an exceptional dog consistently without any training whatsoever besides trash breaking??? thats the point im tring to make and keep gettin off track ;)I'm sayin u can get a good dog by training A good dog by breading. Or bad dog by training Bad by breading There is never a def answer It's trial and error.. Like I said EVERY DOG is different no matter bread or bloodline Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Mike on July 25, 2011, 04:01:22 pm If he was a catahoula, then he had hunting in his blood...I think the question is redundant. Genetics are the key to everything. You can't train a dog to do anything unless it possesses the genetic potential to do so. Those arguing that training is more important are just arguing for genetics. If a dog hunts a mile out without ever being "trained" to hunt a mile out, this is genetic. If you were somehow able to "train" a dog to hunt a mile out, well then you were only able to do so because the dog had the genetic ability to hunt a mile out...On the other hand, you can't train dogs to fly...Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Lots of variables to consider, but genetics and certain genetic traits are easier to control for/isolate when considering the determining factor for how/why a dog performs. That pretty much sums it up right there. Without genectics, all the training/exposure is pointless... you can't train the "hunt" into a dog. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 04:04:58 pm That pretty much sums it up right there.
Without genectics, all the training/exposure is pointless... you can't train the "hunt" into a dog. [/quote] Well said!! Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 04:06:01 pm well said, no doubt it raises percentages, but the topic is saying genetics alone make every aspect of a dog except the handling and trash breaking which is just not true and only someone new to raising pups could think it is in my opinion, yes there is a better chance of genetics making a outstanding dog opposed to just a good dog... but does anyone really believe that genetics alone can make, train, and finish an exceptional dog consistently without any training whatsoever besides trash breaking??? thats the point im tring to make and keep gettin off track ;) The good handfull of exeptional working dogs I have had; hog dog,beagle rabbit dogs,coon dogs hound or cur,bulldogs and protection dogs all had one thing in common ...good genetics/breeding from good/proven dogs before them and they all also had one other thing in common....they made you look good,all you did was piont them in the right direction and and give a little guidance per say. Not much "training" involved... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: txhogsanddogs on July 25, 2011, 04:08:37 pm Real simple. You can make a pot of soup with great ingredence like beef ,chicken,etc... and fine tune it with all the spices in the world and you will have yourself a great pot of soup this is genetics. Or you can put a turd in the pot and pour all the same great ingredence in it and stir your arms off and at the end of the day you still have a Turd. That's awesome...... ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 04:10:21 pm Quote from another post...perfect example...
Quote We turned out Hunter, Striker and some young dogs out about a 1/2 mile from the feeder and roaded them in that direction. I watched Hunter and Striker on the the Garmin as soon as they jumped him, right at the feeder... the race was on. Lost them at about 1.2 miles and headed that way. Got to within 600 yards of where they fell off the radar and they popped back up at .92 headed back this direction... but moving slow. They crossed way up ahead of us and came bayed in a pond that was about dried up about 800 yards out. We started driving that way and all the young dogs headed to the bay as we got closer Quote .... the young dogs reffered to were with older dogs, and sending them to a bay is not 100% natural talent that is training with older dogs. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 04:11:34 pm Quote from another post...perfect example... Quote We turned out Hunter, Striker and some young dogs out about a 1/2 mile from the feeder and roaded them in that direction. I watched Hunter and Striker on the the Garmin as soon as they jumped him, right at the feeder... the race was on. Lost them at about 1.2 miles and headed that way. Got to within 600 yards of where they fell off the radar and they popped back up at .92 headed back this direction... but moving slow. They crossed way up ahead of us and came bayed in a pond that was about dried up about 800 yards out. We started driving that way and all the young dogs headed to the bay as we got closer Quote .... the young dogs reffered to were with older dogs, and sending them to a bay is not 100% natural talent that is training with older dogs. Never said them young dogs were exeptional either ;) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 04:13:20 pm exceptional or not they were relying on older dogs... thats training my friend.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 04:20:24 pm exceptional or not they were relying on older dogs... thats training my friend. Fair enough....but if you take a buch of pound dogs in this same scenario will you acheive the same result with junk vs good genetics? What about dropping a shy, never been messed with much,2 nd time being hauled 2nd time in the woods well bred 8 month old pup on the ground with a few older dogs and he roll out 850 -1000 yds with old dog,did he do it cause of traing or genetics? he has olny seen the other dog twice as the dog he rolled with does not belong to me. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: ric.o on July 25, 2011, 04:30:44 pm If training is the key to have consistant good dogs. Many of breeders before me has wasted their lifes:
I just cant believe it! Why dont some of u pound trainers call and tell them: Here is a list by breed of line breeders that give us the dogs we all have today: (plotts) danny sanders, mike cauley,terry blanchard,marty scelfo,orval roberts (curs) joey denison,jim ward,larry parker I could go on and on. genetics first, proper exposure second. If u believe anything else. Nothing I can say will help u. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 04:33:45 pm If training is the key to have consistant good dogs. Many of breeders before me has wasted their lifes: I just cant believe it! Why dont some of u pound trainers call and tell them: Here is a list by breed of line breeders that give us the dogs we all have today: (plotts) danny sanders, mike cauley,terry blanchard,marty scelfo,orval roberts (curs) joey denison,jim ward,larry parker I could go on and on. genetics first, proper exposure second. If u believe anything else. Nothing I can say will help u. We have a winner! If you dont understand genetics you will never understand anyone who does. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 04:37:50 pm dogs dont have to b familiar with another dog to go with it... thats using a dog to start the pups which is training in its best form. dogs are like certain people, some dont wanna hunt alone cuz their scared of the dark or afraid of the hogs, but they will man up when their with another feller even if they dont know each other very well. same as with a dog, a pup dont wanna hunt alone sometimes...and most truely great young dogs are bein ran with another dog, that is training even tho your not hands on training him yourself. And the pups that are in question are not goin 1000 yds and bayin hogs on their own... better yet runnin with the older dogs, and goin to a bay and most any pup thatll bark at a hog a few times will figure out to go to a bay... either way you wanna word it, they are bein trained, its not all natural talent, their not doin it alone off strictly genetics... no offence but if you dont apply your own theories to your own dogs then its nothin more than just b/s on the net ;) according to your theory underdog the pups in reference are culls cuz they dont genetically do it all alone? im confused here
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Noah on July 25, 2011, 04:40:23 pm If you dont understand genetics you will never understand anyone who does. As could be said for training... ;) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 04:41:07 pm well said, no doubt it raises percentages, but the topic is saying genetics alone make every aspect of a dog except the handling and trash breaking which is just not true and only someone new to raising pups could think it is in my opinion, yes there is a better chance of genetics making a outstanding dog opposed to just a good dog... but does anyone really believe that genetics alone can make, train, and finish an exceptional dog consistently without any training whatsoever besides trash breaking??? thats the point im tring to make and keep gettin off track ;) I don't think the topic was saying genetics alone makes every aspect of a dog and I wasn't either.. The topic is training vs genetics and I'm not sure what you're trying to argue because you just said your dogs have been linebred for 40 years and that genetics will give you a higher percentage of good dogs. You are basically agreeing with and arguing the same thing at the same time.. I can't imagine someone hunting and breeding a line of dogs for 40 years if they thought they could just train a dog to have the same hunt and want to.. And yes I do think that you could take a dog with the right genetics and want to to the woods and do nothing but turn him loose and he would figure out how to hunt and run and bay hogs. Who is "training" all them coyotes and wolves to hunt , find, rundown and kill food? Wonder why they all look so much alike? Genetics. Mother Nature Culls HARD.. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 04:47:20 pm Every now and then I hear someone say that training is the most important factor in making a hog dog over genetics. a refreshment of the original postWhat are yall's thoughts? How do you train a dog to go out 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, a mile, looking for a hog? How do you train a dog to take a track and stay with it until the hog is found? How do you train a dog to stay with a running hog for many miles and many hours until it's bayed? That's all genetics to me, you can't train the hunt, drive and bottom into a dog. Putting a handle on your dog and trash breaking is the only training involved in my opinion. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 04:49:59 pm Quote We turned out Hunter, Striker and some young dogs out about a 1/2 mile from the feeder and roaded them in that direction. I watched Hunter and Striker on the the Garmin as soon as they jumped him, right at the feeder... the race was on. Lost them at about 1.2 miles and headed that way. Got to within 600 yards of where they fell off the radar and they popped back up at .92 headed back this direction... but moving slow. They crossed way up ahead of us and came bayed in a pond that was about dried up about 800 yards out. We started driving that way and all the young dogs headed to the bay as we got closer Quote that is saying one thing and doin another in my book chain rated Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 04:51:59 pm Every now and then I hear someone say that training is the most important factor in making a hog dog over genetics. Mikes Statement above asked If training was the most important over genetics. If you start with good genetics its easier to achieve your goal to end up with a good dog. Sure the best genetics in the world wont produce chit without the proper exposer (training).Pretty damn obvious. Very few people have really good dogs and most come from genetics. If you ever had the opertunity to have an edge over making a good dog than why would anyone settle for just a dog. A chit eater eats,drinks as much as a super dog. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 04:53:07 pm Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 04:55:10 pm and yes i believe in genetics reread or something cuz ive said it over and over, doesnt mean im not sharp enough to separate theory from fact.. just because i do something dont make it right or the only way, guess u could say that i believe in training and genetics and nothin i read is gonna change that... but genetics alone wont do it same as training alone wont ;)
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 05:00:29 pm Your exactly correct it takes both genetics and training to make a great dog.
I just believe genetics is the foundation. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 05:04:12 pm lol guess the contradiction speaks for itself ;) well im bout to take these $h!% eaters to the woods and catch sume hogs... i type slower on my phone than the computer but ill try to keep up lol Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 05:05:46 pm lol guess the contradiction speaks for itself ;) well im bout to take these $h!% eaters to the woods and catch sume hogs... i type slower on my phone than the computer but ill try to keep up lol Exposure and oportunity are not the same as trainig..... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 05:07:39 pm Your exactly correct it takes both genetics and training to make a great dog. I just believe genetics is the foundation. thats probably pretty accurate...just like the genetics can be good or bad lol all dogs have genetics... only a few have desirable genetics which is the important part to know about breeding dogs for genetics Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Scott on July 25, 2011, 05:11:22 pm lol guess the contradiction speaks for itself ;) well im bout to take these $h!% eaters to the woods and catch sume hogs... i type slower on my phone than the computer but ill try to keep up lol Exposure and oportunity are not the same as trainig..... Exactly! Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 05:14:35 pm My statement was incorrect than Bryant.
Genetics and exposer is what I should have said,but he was referring exposer as a training technique.My bad. Sometime you have to go back to basics so everyone can follow.Sorry My point will never ever change Genetics 1st and exposer,training,etc.... follows. My opinion and Im happy with it. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 05:18:19 pm Quote from: UNDERDOG on Today at 04:53:07 pm
Exposure and oportunity are not the same as trainig..... are you $$&tt&#% me? lmao i cant believe you put that on the net... from teaching it to lead to exposing it to a hog its all part of the training process!! anything you do with a young dog is training whether its training it to load or to go to a bay, ya genetics can give drive and nose and bottom and hunt but there is no such thing as a totally untrained dog... a hog dog is more than just runnin a mile and bayin a hog... what about the smaller stuff that makes it a truely exceptional dog? the stuff that the genetics didnt put in...exposure and opportunity are just more steps to training a hog dog, i see now how yall describe (no training) if you dont consider any of the training actual training... i got it now im no longer confused ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: grunterhunter8 on July 25, 2011, 05:29:08 pm ya genetics can give drive and nose and bottom and hunt but there is no such thing as a totally untrained dog... a hog dog is more than just runnin a mile and bayin a hog... what about the smaller stuff that makes it a truely exceptional dog? the stuff that the genetics didnt put in...exposure and opportunity are just more steps to training a hog dog, i see now how yall describe (no training) if you dont consider any of the training actual training... i got it now im no longer confused ;D What are some things you have trained a dog to do that genetics didn't allow for? Another Question to you and rest of the training crowd? After you start with good genetics, then "train" a dog to hunt, bay, etc. and the dog ends up being a cull, what do you most often attribute this to? Did you just not train it well enough? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 05:39:58 pm No....your still confused, leading, loading, riding dont find and bay hogs ;)
That's just common everyday chit ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 05:44:00 pm In the event it's culled on that level ya I blame the training and primarily not Puttin enough interest and time in the dog and loosing patience... Which if u reread u will see that's why I don't raise pups unless it's a nevessity. And I've trained hog coon cow dogs that didn't wanna bay at first or dogs that didn't wanna hunt... There's usually an explanation and can b straightened out. Just can't see how any true dogman can argue the concept of training I mean look at the big picture you all know as well as I do that genetics help but theres some extent of training involved to makin any kind of dog
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 05:46:31 pm And....are you claiming to be a great hog dog trainer? Of so train ole Molly to roll solo wo your bird dog...
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 05:49:21 pm To me training is getting a dog to do something its not genetically pre disposed to do, not the basics of a well mannered dog.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 05:51:20 pm No....your still confused, leading, loading, riding dont find and bay hogs ;) Lmfao I guess you don't either then!!! I'm not one of them guys that has to pick his dogs up to load em and get tangled up when you lead em... If u ever been around a true huntin dog you would understand that that's all part of a huntin dog... Leadin Loadin commin to you... It ain't a finished hog dog if it don't handle ;) and exposing pups to older dogs and giving them the opportunity to go to a Bayed hog is training which means there not doin it off genetics alone... Simple as thatThat's just common everyday chit ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 05:56:51 pm And....are you claiming to be a great hog dog trainer? Of so train ole Molly to roll solo wo your bird dog... Nope not a great trainer at all... But I catch hogs ;) and Molly rolls solo and did when I got her...thus the genetics... Just won't find nothin on her own without him... Which I guarantee wil be lined out you can count on it. U live over by Ol Jerry Stuart? Mayb next time I'm at his house I'll come learn from u I guess lolTitle: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 05:59:56 pm My dogs don't tote the well mannered gene I gotta teach it to them ;D
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Noah on July 25, 2011, 06:01:59 pm Haha this is a good thread ;D
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 06:03:28 pm So back to training vs genetics .....can you take a barn yard rooster and train him to compete and consistently win against a old family of good,genetically strong hatch chickens? Or a ole blue pet bull and train it to compete on a high level and win consistently against a good family of game dogs? ? No.....the GENETICS are not there....period, right?
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Reuben on July 25, 2011, 06:05:57 pm When I was younger I trained to sit stay heel fetch etc. etc. Then one day I decided it was over kill. The answer was simple. Every day socializing doesn't look like training but it is training. We meet that minimum amount of training with an exceptional dog then you will have a great hunting dog in your hands.
We just set this dog up for greater success when this dog is in the woods... This has been a great thread...when we exhaust it... is only right to start one on "WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO HANDLE A HUNTING DOG IN THE WOODS TO TAKE HIM TO A HIGHER LEVEL"... This is the other side to making a natural a great dog... when both are combined now we have something to talk about... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 06:06:31 pm And....are you claiming to be a great hog dog trainer? Of so train ole Molly to roll solo wo your bird dog... Nope not a great trainer at all... But I catch hogs ;) and Molly rolls solo and did when I got her...thus the genetics... Just won't find nothin on her own without him... Which I guarantee wil be lined out you can count on it. U live over by Ol Jerry Stuart? Mayb next time I'm at his house I'll come learn from u I guess lolDon't know Jerry Stuart but your partner knows were I live but that is pointless as you seem to have it all figured out and wouldn't learn any thing by coming here about hunting dogs ;) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 06:07:04 pm So back to training vs genetics .....can you take a barn yard rooster and train him to compete and consistently win against a old family of good,genetically strong hatch chickens? Or a ole blue pet bull and train it to compete on a high level and win consistently against a good family of game dogs? ? No.....the GENETICS are not there....period, right? Talkin dogs not chickens... I dislike the smell of chicken$€#% so I don't fool with chickens... Us the comparison based on a chickens brain Bein equal to that of a dog?Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 06:10:16 pm So back to training vs genetics .....can you take a barn yard rooster and train him to compete and consistently win against a old family of good,genetically strong hatch chickens? Or a ole blue pet bull and train it to compete on a high level and win consistently against a good family of game dogs? ? No.....the GENETICS are not there....period, right? Talkin dogs not chickens... I dislike the smell of chicken$€#% so I don't fool with chickens... Us the comparison based on a chickens brain Bein equal to that of a dog?Never seen a good family of game chickens or spent time with any working then I assume .....its ok to not understand something ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 06:14:28 pm [/quote] Don't know Jerry Stuart but your partner knows were I live but that is pointless as you seem to have it all figured out and wouldn't learn any thing by coming here about hunting dogs ;) [/quote] the biggest fact spoken on this thread so far lol na anyway he's a good Ol boy surprised y'all haven't met he's been hog huntin many years lives just rite down the street... I think he's still Runnin some of my bloodlines in his yard... Johnnies too if I'm not mistaken :-* Just messin with ya Bryant And Ur rite Noah this is a good thread ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Bryant on July 25, 2011, 06:46:07 pm I'm even more curious now as to why you would consider breeding that Molly dog into your line. Shouldnt you just train them better...after all you said you can train them to hunt as far as you like.
Honestly if I had been line breeding a line of dogs for 40 years and was still trying to put some range on them I would have scrapped them all about 35 years prior and started over with something completely different....but that's just me. You also seem really hung up on the pups that will roll and hunt on their own. Once again, I never personally said that mine would consistently find hogs (yet) but I can assure you I could start hunting these pups alone and in short time they would. You see they were born with the hunt and prey drive "built in". They don't need an old dog to make them go, nor do they need one to make them bay. What running an older dog does is teach them to trail better...something they would eventually figure out on their own, it just greatly speeds the process. Maybe you just haven't hunted or worked with some really well bred pups. And in the words of Forrest Gump...That's all I have to say about that. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: YELLOWBLACKMASK on July 25, 2011, 06:46:58 pm O CHIT!!!!!!
Sorry guys been reading and lovin this post but I don't have a thing to say yet. Just needed to post real quick cause I was sitting on post # 666. HeHe OK Got that took care of. Please continue gentlemen. :angel: Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: TexasHogDogs on July 25, 2011, 07:02:33 pm Every now and then I hear someone say that training is the most important factor in making a hog dog over genetics. What are yall's thoughts? How do you train a dog to go out 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, a mile, looking for a hog? How do you train a dog to take a track and stay with it until the hog is found? How do you train a dog to stay with a running hog for many miles and many hours until it's bayed? That's all genetics to me, you can't train the hunt, drive and bottom into a dog. Putting a handle on your dog and trash breaking is the only training involved in my opinion. Yup that bout sums it up. All that needs to be said really. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: leonidas on July 25, 2011, 07:07:04 pm I don't think people don't understand GENETICS....Better genetics means out of a litter you SHOULD have less culls......Training now is SOME dogs will try harder then others period.... Theres so many variables to this tho....but it starts with genetics....
Every now and then I hear someone say that training is the most important factor in making a hog dog over genetics. What are yall's thoughts? How do you train a dog to go out 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, a mile, looking for a hog? How do you train a dog to take a track and stay with it until the hog is found? How do you train a dog to stay with a running hog for many miles and many hours until it's bayed? That's all genetics to me, you can't train the hunt, drive and bottom into a dog. Putting a handle on your dog and trash breaking is the only training involved in my opinion. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: TexasHogDogs on July 25, 2011, 07:12:31 pm this topic is prone for some differences of opinion... so no offense meant here...any dog that is exposed to a hog enough and taught to want a hog bad enough or ran with a dog with bottom and range and such will pick it up. Its not very hard to teach a dog range and bottom and to find hogs, if you have the skills to do it ;) you can take a young dog that wont even leave your side and pen it up with a long range dog for a couple weeks and the young dog will roll out with that dog 9 out of 10 times and pick up that range, same with the bottom and drive and all that. ask yourself out of all the dogs with so called great genetics how many young dogs just naturally do it on their own, without puttin them with another dog? Are they put all by theirself till they are old enough to hunt then just turn them loose all by theirself and they have the range and bottom and go bay hogs and from then on they just have to be taught not to run trash and to handle right? thatll actually do it and prove it instead just posting that they will? its a mindset that just cuz it has good blood it has to b the blood makin it such a great dog and not the training or other dogs its huntin with rubbin off on them...I been raisin dogs a long time and i like breedin for genetics and traits within a bloodline, but the fact of the matter is you can go spend alot of money on a finished dog and hunt a total $h!t eater with that dog and make a top dog out it if you had the desire to do it. breedin one or two dogs that you happen to get that are decent dogs is not breeding genetics or desired traits, 2 or 3 generations of dogs are not gonna b (line bred) and a top breeding program where you have natural talent every time with little or no culls, more luck than anything although there are some older lines that have far higher percentages... 20-30+ yr old lines, too many people luck up on a decent dog these days and start their own (line) of dogs and have no idea what they are doin or if that decent dog was the only decent dog from the litter or anything else. theres a few good guys on here that know what they are doin and talkin about, and alot of people that base their opinion on the popular opinion or what a certain person thinks to get brownie points, im sure my opinion is not the popular opinion and if it was then nobody would say so but a real dog man can make a top notch dog out of nothing as well as breed one to have it in his blood...genetics can raise percentages, bring pride to your pack, and make you proud of them, its a great theory and hobby, and i been breedin genetics a long time, but a good dog is born, a great dog is made ;D JMO noelle noelle noelle, I could not disagree with you more! Wrong wrong wrong . No offence man but I dont even know what to say here. I dont know much man but I would not even know were to start with your thread up above. Hope this dont piss you off and I dont need a brownie point but its just full of holes man . Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 07:23:11 pm Na I don't get pissed off... So many different opinions and different levels of hunters and different expectations in dogs... Lol never gonna b a definate answer cuz everyones opinion varies and too many variables in the topic... I know what works and so do most... Hog huntin is the real passion, the opinion sharing is just a past time... Long as Ur catching hogs and proud of your dogs then nobody elses opinion matters in the long run
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 07:35:04 pm I'm even more curious now as to why you would consider breeding that Molly dog into your line. Shouldnt you just train them better...after all you said you can train them to hunt as far as you like. well when I primarily hunted on horses I didn't want dogs that ranged out past 500yds... And Molly has a new boyfriend and ain't breeding to mine anyhow... And her training is comin along nicely lol. Unless u want to buy her then how bout loose concern for her and whatever I do with her is my concern and nobody elses... Don't see how it really affects you either way as I don't recall this thread Bein about her nor do I recall the request of your opinion on her ;) and I still wanna see your 6mth old pups go a mile and consistently bay everything they find all alone with no training... Better yet I got more money than brains I'll buy all of them that will. I'm not startin a pissin match with you over it cuz I believe most of the braggin is just talk,all b/s aside tho I would b Interrested in your line of dogs and learning more about them if they truly are as good as u claimHonestly if I had been line breeding a line of dogs for 40 years and was still trying to put some range on them I would have scrapped them all about 35 years prior and started over with something completely different....but that's just me. You also seem really hung up on the pups that will roll and hunt on their own. Once again, I never personally said that mine would consistently find hogs (yet) but I can assure you I could start hunting these pups alone and in short time they would. You see they were born with the hunt and prey drive "built in". They don't need an old dog to make them go, nor do they need one to make them bay. What running an older dog does is teach them to trail better...something they would eventually figure out on their own, it just greatly speeds the process. Maybe you just haven't hunted or worked with some really well bred pups. And in the words of Forrest Gump...That's all I have to say about that. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 07:51:37 pm As far as training being 90% of a dog...I'll respectfully disagree. I have 6 month old pups that will consistantly roll and hunt a mile deep and bay anything that moves, yet I refuse to take credit for any type of training. I haven't done anything but put feed to these dogs...seldom even touch them. It's breeding and genetics that makes them what they are. Your right...pride and satisfaction do play a part in my breeding program, but there's only one person my dogs have to satisfy and thats the one buying the feed. I could care less what anyone else thinks because I'm honestly not in the market to sell dogs.
Those were your exact words Bryant... I propose a truce... U drop the Molly dog and I'll drop the pups ;D I dislike making things personal it's all just opinions and I share some of yours as well as everyone elses... Lol can't we all just get along Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Scott on July 25, 2011, 08:08:09 pm Just a thought about genetics after sorting thru this thread:
Genes can express themselves differently amongst siblings...that's why linebred and inbred dogs can still show differences in a variety of ways. A certain sibling may show more traits of a certain dog in it's pedigree than the others. Yes, they have the same stacked genes, but they are expressing themselves differently amongst the siblings. Hence the reason your gonna have culls in every litter. The other thing with inbreeding is your also doubling up on the bad genes (hence the culls). Because of this, inbreeding can be used as a tool to attempt to rid yourself of the unwanted chit in your dogs. Also as a side note: when I think of training in the way that some are mentioning it here...I would expect more involvement from the human for it to be actual "training". If all I have to do is kennel a young dog with an older finished dog, then turn them loose in the woods together and I get the desired results...I don't consider that training at all. It required almost zero effort on my part. How do you (the human) actually train a dog to bay (A dog that won't bay with another dog in or out of a pen)? Do you get in the pen and bay the hog to show the dog what's expected? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 08:24:36 pm Good points Scott... But training is training whether it b by a human or another dog... And the post is about training vs genetics... That to me means all training the dog receives... Human or dog... And why is there even such a thing as training a dog if it's all genetics? With as many proven lines as there are and so many folks startin their own line there should b plenty pups to go around for everyone and delete any kinda training at all... Which brings to mind another question, why are folks with good lines and line bred dogs the ones that don't distribute their pups to just anybody? I know the answer for me but what's some other answers? Are they really not that great?
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: cantexduck on July 25, 2011, 08:26:50 pm Those were your exact words Bryant... I propose a truce... U drop the Molly dog and I'll drop the pups ;D I dislike making things personal it's all just opinions and I share some of yours as well as everyone elses... Lol can't we all just get along I think your rite, I have 4, year old dogs that just go on their own, will find a hog, bay good... no training, its amazing, and most of my older dogs were that way as well, it just came natural, some have to be trained, i dont really waste the time on one anymore once i give it time to see it dont come natural to it, its gonna start some talkin, but im gonna go ahead and say it... If you breed proven dogs from proven lines it will pay off, not on every pup, but if its bred into them then they are alot more likely to just pick it up on their own. And just because you have two good dogs and breed them, that dont make a good set of pups, what if they were the only two good dogs out of either of their background? It takes years of dedication to raise an entire line of proven dogs to get to where you can start throwing good percentages of naturally talented pups consistently You said the above on aug 7 2009 under the name hog tied. here is a link to that thread. http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=7688.msg66683#msg66683 So which is is? Natural or training............................................................ Make your mind up. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 08:29:35 pm It's simple, If you could "train" any old dog to be a hogdog someone would already be doing it and capitalizing on all the money to be made. NOBODY is doin it..
Why in the world are yall not scooping up every dog you can get your hands on and training it to be a hogdog and selling it? Can someone please answer that? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 08:36:30 pm Chainrated I'm sure there's folks sellin dogs left and right somewhere or another but who wants to fool with just training dogs for folks? Ain't no time to hunt if your just trainin shoot I don't even like trainin my own although I mostly just put em with another dog and let them go when I do...mr mason trains lots of dogs... That's the only person I know that does, ain't enough money in it for me but I'm sure others do it as well
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: TexasHogDogs on July 25, 2011, 08:45:31 pm The simple anwser is it can't be done. Thats just all it is to it ! This is crazy man .
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Bryant on July 25, 2011, 08:46:32 pm ... why are folks with good lines and line bred dogs the ones that don't distribute their pups to just anybody? I know the answer for me but what's some other answers? Are they really not that great? Hahaha...because there are a lot of people who would try to reproduce them, call them "their line" and attempt to make a buck off someone else's hard work and dedication. I'll also say that most people with good lines also don't breed until they have a need. Usually pups are kept, or if there DOES happen to be any extras they are spoken for long before the breeding ever took place. People with good lines also VERY seldom buy dogs. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 08:47:48 pm noelle
Strike Dog Online Posts: 424 catahoula/shorthair pointer hog dog « on: July 21, 2011, 11:13:13 pm » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gotta male 3yr old half german shorthair pointer half catahoula, hes short to med range in my book, (300-600yds) he hunts hard and covers the woods good. will stick with a hog good, no mouth on track, not rough will stop one but thats about it, hes medium sized bout 50#, pretty good mouth, decent nose, not the fastest dog but not the slowest either, trash broke... got him and he just dont suit me, guy wanted 1200$ for him but i swapped a tracking system for him so i have about 600$ in him id take $600 cash or swap for a longer range dog...hound/cur or cur or hound or something... no pups, no junk, hes not a junky dog and i wont swap him for one that is. ---------------- Noelle why don't you just train this dog you have for sale to suit you? Why don't you train him to be long range like you want? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 08:51:07 pm ... why are folks with good lines and line bred dogs the ones that don't distribute their pups to just anybody? I know the answer for me but what's some other answers? Are they really not that great? Hahaha...because there are a lot of people who would try to reproduce them, call them "their line" and attempt to make a buck off someone else's hard work and dedication. I'll also say that most people with good lines also don't breed until they have a need. Usually pups are kept, or if there DOES happen to be any extras they are spoken for long before the breeding ever took place. ;DFinally we agree on somethin Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: cantexduck on July 25, 2011, 08:51:07 pm So which is is? Natural or training............................................................ Make your mind up. Still waiting.............. In the past two years have you gone from a solid line of dogs with natural drive to having to train them to hunt. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 08:51:50 pm Chainrated I'm sure there's folks sellin dogs left and right somewhere or another Yeah there are plenty of them. They are called Dog Peddlers.. They got plenty of "trained", finished, jam up hogdogs for sale for 500 bucks.. ;) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Scott on July 25, 2011, 08:52:19 pm And why is there even such a thing as training a dog if it's all genetics? With as many proven lines as there are and so many folks startin their own line there should b plenty pups to go around for everyone and delete any kinda training at all... Which brings to mind another question, why are folks with good lines and line bred dogs the ones that don't distribute their pups to just anybody? I know the answer for me but what's some other answers? Are they really not that great? To me there really isn't any training involved...it's exposure. Not that my dogs are anything special, but I can tell you why I don't distribute my pups to just anyone...I need someone who is gonna do right by the dog and give me good feedback on a variety of different things during the process of it making the cut, or cull. I guess that means if I don't trust you...you won't get one of mine. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 08:55:28 pm Number one I dislike a Catahoula dog, two I didn't want him to begin with just swapped a trackin system for him to a friend that needed one... And the feller that got him loves him... He suits him but I didn't like him... Simple as that
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 08:58:10 pm People who have a good bloodline of dogs don't sell them to just anybody because they know what kind of work and time it takes to breed a line of high percentage dogs. They know you can't "train" dogs to do what theirs are Bred to do...
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Mike on July 25, 2011, 09:05:22 pm hogtied
Strike Dog Offline Posts: 330 Re: training vs. natural instinct « Reply #3 on: August 07, 2009, 10:44:21 pm » Quote Modify Remove Split Topic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- your rite, you cant train the hunt into them... just the fine tuning Report to moderator 74.193.1.224 (?) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- may your life be free from trouble, like a slick catch and a double!!! Ha ha ha ha ha... it's amazing ain't it. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Noah on July 25, 2011, 09:06:53 pm It's simple, If you could "train" any old dog to be a hogdog someone would already be doing it and capitalizing on all the money to be made. NOBODY is doin it.. Why in the world are yall not scooping up every dog you can get your hands on and training it to be a hogdog and selling it? Can someone please answer that? I can train most animals to do what they shouldn't do... but with a hog dog, to TRAIN a hog dog, takes a MASSIVE amount of effort... even with superior genetics as you know.... couple that with the amount of property it takes to provide said "prospect" with sufficient opportunity... .... a few thousand acres of unpressured, hog supporting land... that each dog can have access to year round... Can anyone really put a price on that? Land, HOGS, make training possible... without it, you got nothin. So, if someone wants to lease me out JP's back yard & pay me for my time... I'll make all the hog dogs out of whatever you want ;) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 09:08:08 pm So which is is? Natural or training............................................................ Make your mind up. Still waiting.............. In the past two years have you gone from a solid line of dogs with natural drive to having to train them to hunt. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 09:08:25 pm hogtied Strike Dog Offline Posts: 330 Re: training vs. natural instinct « Reply #3 on: August 07, 2009, 10:44:21 pm » Quote Modify Remove Split Topic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- your rite, you cant train the hunt into them... just the fine tuning Report to moderator 74.193.1.224 (?) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- may your life be free from trouble, like a slick catch and a double!!! Ha ha ha ha ha... it's amazing ain't it. Uh Oh,, lmao.... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 09:13:24 pm Nose and hunt are hard to put in a dog mike but desire drive and range are not that hard... What is lettin your pups run with older dogs or Sendin pups to the bay if that's not part of a training experience to some extent? It's not independence or natural if their Bein guided to it
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: cantexduck on July 25, 2011, 09:17:11 pm So which is is? Natural or training............................................................ Make your mind up. Still waiting.............. In the past two years have you gone from a solid line of dogs with natural drive to having to train them to hunt. Dont take it personal, I piss off everyone it seems. When it gets too deep, stop digging. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 09:26:57 pm Lol was fun while it lasted no more opinion battles for me... I'm a peace lovin man from here on out. And I wasn't that pissed cantex ;D where there's opinions there's differences y'all carry on I'm on the sidelines on this one lol
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Mike on July 25, 2011, 09:27:12 pm It's simple, If you could "train" any old dog to be a hogdog someone would already be doing it and capitalizing on all the money to be made. NOBODY is doin it.. Why in the world are yall not scooping up every dog you can get your hands on and training it to be a hogdog and selling it? Can someone please answer that? I can train most animals to do what they shouldn't do... but with a hog dog, to TRAIN a hog dog, takes a MASSIVE amount of effort... even with superior genetics as you know.... couple that with the amount of property it takes to provide said "prospect" with sufficient opportunity... .... a few thousand acres of unpressured, hog supporting land... that each dog can have access to year round... Can anyone really put a price on that? Land, HOGS, make training possible... without it, you got nothin. So, if someone wants to lease me out JP's back yard & pay me for my time... I'll make all the hog dogs out of whatever you want ;) How much do you want Noah? We'll take up a collection and I'm sure Jesse can put you up on one of them big ranches out there. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 09:29:45 pm It's simple, If you could "train" any old dog to be a hogdog someone would already be doing it and capitalizing on all the money to be made. NOBODY is doin it.. Why in the world are yall not scooping up every dog you can get your hands on and training it to be a hogdog and selling it? Can someone please answer that? I can train most animals to do what they shouldn't do... but with a hog dog, to TRAIN a hog dog, takes a MASSIVE amount of effort... even with superior genetics as you know.... couple that with the amount of property it takes to provide said "prospect" with sufficient opportunity... .... a few thousand acres of unpressured, hog supporting land... that each dog can have access to year round... Can anyone really put a price on that? Land, HOGS, make training possible... without it, you got nothin. So, if someone wants to lease me out JP's back yard & pay me for my time... I'll make all the hog dogs out of whatever you want ;) Noah you are right it would take a massive amount of time to try and train a dog to do something that he just didn't want to do. It would In my opinion be a complete waste of your time to try and "train" a dog to hunt for a hog, Trail a hog, run a hog for hours , try to stop it given the chance and then to stand and bay the hog for sometimes hours.. I don't think you or anyone else can do it but not only that, why would you even try? Why would you spend the years it would take to do that when you could get a dog that was bred to do it and has the genetic makeup in him to WANT To do it? Lets have a friendly wager and whoever wants in on it can ... I have a 2 year old dog thats been runnin loose in my yard for 2 years, He is bred pretty good, he is a half dennison dog that was born and raised here. He is a cull according to my standards.. The ONLY reason he is still alive is because my girl claimed him as her dog and I promised her I would not cull him.. I want to see you make a hogdog out of him and if you can I will get on here and say I was wrong and you will win the bet. I want you to train him to take a track, run for at least 2 hours silent and then bay the hog for at least 2 hours if need be. How long do you need ? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Noah on July 25, 2011, 09:44:09 pm Haha, Mike, it'd take minimum a $100K/yr plus benefits for me to leave my beloved Florida... but I am open to the idea ;D
Chain, just because something CAN be done... doesn't mean it SHOULD be done... but that's how trainers make a livin'... trainin' animals to do what they shouldn't! I'd take a dog like that for no less than 3yrs... with a substantial deposit up front and no guarentees of course ;D I do love it when someone's got more money than sense!!! ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: let-em-go-10 on July 25, 2011, 09:49:57 pm It's simple, If you could "train" any old dog to be a hogdog someone would already be doing it and capitalizing on all the money to be made. NOBODY is doin it.. They do it on baydog.com lol. There's a lot of people picking up dogs off the side of the road and sale them as hogdogs, without training involved. Do they work probably not, for some people it's a business, go to the dog trade bet you find people on there saleing dogs that u have never seen post. Those are the guys doing it IMO.Why in the world are yall not scooping up every dog you can get your hands on and training it to be a hogdog and selling it? Can someone please answer that? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: cajunl on July 25, 2011, 09:50:19 pm To me I like to do things simple and not over think it.
Take a well bred dog that the parents hunt the way I want and show it tons of hogs. Then just get out of the way and don't screw the dog up. It is not rocket science! ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 25, 2011, 09:51:09 pm I want in ;D
I have a 1 yr old YBMC male thats been started and Is a cull to me. You buy him for $500 and keep him 1 yr at the end of the year If he will strike hogs,long range,stop a runner and bay a hog without trashing I will buy him back for $2500 cash money no BS. If he wont do those things in a yr you bought yourself a cull for $500. I will sign a written guarantee and have it notorized to make it official. Lets see some of those real dog trainers step up. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Mike on July 25, 2011, 09:51:31 pm To me I like to do things simple and not over think it. Take a well bred dog that the parents hunt the way I want and show it tons of hogs. Then just get out of the way and don't screw the dog up. It is not rocket science! ;D Bingo... we have a winner!!! Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 09:56:31 pm Lol was fun while it lasted no more opinion battles for me... I'm a peace lovin man from here on out. And I wasn't that pissed cantex ;D where there's opinions there's differences y'all carry on I'm on the sidelines on this one lol In some dog training circles that's called "avoidance" behavior ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 10:05:48 pm Chain, just because something CAN be done... doesn't mean it SHOULD be done... but that's how trainers make a livin'... trainin' animals to do what they shouldn't! I'd take a dog like that for no less than 3yrs... with a substantial deposit up front and no guarentees of course ;D I do love it when someone's got more money than sense!!! ;D 3 years? LOL... Any trainer that needs 3 years to train a dog better pray to god he can find lots of people with more money than sense.. ;) So you not up for the bet? You get paid when the dog is a guaranteed hogdog... It's just One dog. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 10:08:07 pm To me I like to do things simple and not over think it. It is not rocket science! ;D That's too easy though cajun. lol Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: noelle on July 25, 2011, 10:17:09 pm Lol was fun while it lasted no more opinion battles for me... I'm a peace lovin man from here on out. And I wasn't that pissed cantex ;D where there's opinions there's differences y'all carry on I'm on the sidelines on this one lol In some dog training circles that's called "avoidance" behavior ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: TexasHogDogs on July 25, 2011, 10:18:06 pm I cant seem to get this one to do noting can somebody help me out ???????????????
Am starting to doubt my hog dog training abilities !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think it might be genetic! (http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/untitled-1.jpg) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 25, 2011, 10:19:52 pm Now that's a cocky lookin dog...
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Reuben on July 25, 2011, 10:21:40 pm genetics is part of it...another important part is selecting the right pups for hunting and breeding...and only the very best should be used...throw away the rose colored glasses and cull hard.
I have seen breeders makes excuses on why a dog is good and why it has bad days etc...etc...when she comes in heat I will breed her to ole blue. I also have seen breeders cull a pup because the pup was real trashy...that is the kind that usually make the best hunting dogs... Ole spot finally turned on at 3 years, he is making a dog now. I will probably breed him to ole Sue because she started at 1 year old. Spot is a cull and shouldn't be bred. another good one...I have 8 pups and I will sell any seven but I will keep one for myself. I guess this person is saying his line of dogs are so good that any pup will turn out...or...he is one heck of a trainer. Either way his strain of dogs is going by the wayside... THE ABOVE MENTIONED ARE SOME OF THE REASONS WHY LINEBREEDING/INBREEDING CAN STILL FAIL. EVEN WHEN IT FAILS IT IS STILL GENETICS... To me there is natural progression stages for certain age levels of a pup. If a pup is not on it I wouldn't keep it... some will call this hardnosed...I call it trying to breed better dogs...The cream rises to the top. GENETICS AND PROPER SELECTION GO HAND IN HAND AND EXPOSURE AND TRAINING A CLOSE SECOND.Training should be minimal but proper socialization with man a must... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: TexasHogDogs on July 25, 2011, 10:24:14 pm Yeah when he finds a hot hog track he jumps up on a fence post and Crows real loud I dont know if thats open mouthed are not and then at the bay he wants to Peck real hard at a hog and won't Crow so am kinda pissed at him right now anybody want to train this one for me Lmmfao !
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: ole shep on July 25, 2011, 10:45:32 pm Dang, I finally got it all read. I know one statement to be 100% true. Cantexduck will PO most people.HAHA ;DHow you doing ole buddy? I would like to see that hound x you got from Jerry G. Bred to trail blood I guess ? Pm me OK If a coyote pups mother gets called up and shot. And there are no others around most probably don't servive or do they? There are also some that are good at catching food and some that hunt more for carion. There are some dogs that chase birds and some that point them.there are some dogs that catch hogs and some that bay them and some that are scared to death of them. Why is that?I could go on and on. I get good bred plotts and try to train them to do what I want them to do.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Miller Lite on July 25, 2011, 10:52:47 pm I dont see how you train these well trained dogs spending so much time on here ... i know mine catch hogs but i hunt them about 5 nights a week sometimes 7 to get them to catch hogs the genetics make them load up an wanna go work every night i dont lead my dogs to the truck i drop the tail gate an unsnap chains they get in they aren't no bird dog catahoula pit bull 1/8 redbone or whatever people breed these days the are geneticly fit yellow black mouth cur dogs who do what they were indeed bred to do all in them genes ;)
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: UNDERDOG on July 25, 2011, 11:24:01 pm I have seen breeders makes excuses on why a dog is good and why it has bad days etc...etc...when she comes in heat I will breed her to ole blue. Dang Ruben......leave ole Blue outa this....what did Jason ever do to you ha ha Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Indian Valley Ranch on July 26, 2011, 02:04:08 am Entertaining thread Mike, had a feeling it would be when I read it this morning ;D, At the end of the day, and after 8 pages, what are the facts, one is that every respectable dog man I know got started by getting pups or dogs from people that already had good dogs (GENETICS), another is that you can throw back several generations on the different traits in a dog. I beleive these good dogs that turn out from what we think is unproven stock are just drawing something genetically from dogs in there ancestry. Who keeps track of unproven dogs anyway, we make those assumptions because maybe the parents werent hunting dogs. How do we know that it wasnt traits from the great grand sire that allowed the dog to excell in the woods. All we are doing is putting them in the environment for these traits to be exposed. If you want to call that training, its a free country, but it all goes back to genetics, thats why you dont see any long range, cold nosed bulldogs and why you dont see very many lights out staight cur catchdogs. You can train all day, but for the most part, those traits just arent in the gene pool. When I use the word training, its just a figure of speech, we used to have an old gyp that I would still call a puppy trainer, seemed like she would come get a young dog that just wanted to hang around and before you know it, he would be out there hunting with her all day. She did this with just about every CUR we started with her. Keep in mind, we were hunting horse back and running a bulldog or a bulldogXcur loose as a catchdog. Why is it that she never trained the first bulldog or cross to go hunt? They were right there and had the same opportunity as the cur pups had. Could it be GENETICS :o :o :o, just something to think about ;D
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: tnhillbilly on July 26, 2011, 04:44:27 am My experience is.........they gotta have it in em, in order to get it out.
This line of plotts have been bred for generations to hunt hog and bear. seen several yr old pups strike and run a track, first time out, without any help or training. The man I buy my plotts from lets his pups run loose, turned loose on a bear that ran about 4 mI. And 4 month old pup was at the tree, treeing. And one of the pups I referred to striking and running track straight off the chain are littermates. Had some that all I done was put in a pen couple times, and first time ,out struck out of the box, turned loose, and had a sow bayed with no help. I also had one that I drug around forever, and the night I went lookin for him to cull him, low and behold the switch flipped, and ended up being probly one of the best coondogs I ever owned. BUT, he had it in him to start with, just took longer to get it out. Dont know much about, training or genetics, all i know is what ive seen. I have waisted countless hrs on dogs that were just dogs, and made coondogs dogs out of some but, when I started buying these line bred dogs out of proven dogs I found that there wasn't near the "training". Just took them and turn them loose, with a little guidance . Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Reuben on July 26, 2011, 06:01:15 am Tom,
one day I might want one of those Plotts. Sounds like that breeder knows dogs and can breed better dogs. Bryant, I won't bring up ole blue again... :) ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on July 26, 2011, 07:20:35 am Aight so after 8 pages of discussion we have learned that a "trainer" given about 10,000 bucks and 3 years and 100,000 acres of land, MIGHT be able to train a cull to be a hogdog BUT no guarantees.. LOL..
Yeah I think I'll just stick with the good genetics and culling... ;) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Bryant on July 26, 2011, 08:05:37 am Yep...8 pages and still no one has suggested how you train a hog dog. Some have suggested that training is nothing more than running an older dog with a pup. That being said...what constitutes a good "trainer"? One who has a better older dog to use than someone else?
In my mind, though some may disagree the term "training" means a human hand in one way or another. Providing a dog opportunity, and training are two different things. I've never "trained" a hog dog, but I have many that I have bred well and then given opportunity to develop into what they became all the while trying to not hinder them along the way. I feed my dogs, clean up the crap and take them to the woods. Nature does the rest. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: ric.o on July 26, 2011, 08:28:14 am well sd bryant. I believe chain,u and I are on the same page.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 26, 2011, 09:32:58 am i dont want a bet cause i dont got the money to pay.
i get back to waco tx aug 15. now i can do like ole boy said earlier on that he will drop off a dog and give me a year and if he a HOG DOG then he will buy him bak if u bring me a dog that is hog dog bread like cur, cat ,walker i dont want a lab or heeler lol. and bring year supply of dog food i will have him hunting and baying a hog. i cant garentee stopping a hog. i got a hound cross Dad came of tshelly on here dad was open from what he said. both pups i had off him was completly silent. Genetics??? MORE LIKE LUCK NOT EVERY HOUND IS OPEN NOT EVERY CUR IS SILETN. NOT EVERY DOG IS A HOG DOG...... THIS IS MAINLY HEART NOT GENETICS. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Mike on July 26, 2011, 09:37:32 am i dont want a bet cause i dont got the money to pay. i get back to waco tx aug 15. now i can do like ole boy said earlier on that he will drop off a dog and give me a year and if he a HOG DOG then he will buy him bak if u bring me a dog that is hog dog bread like cur, cat ,walker i dont want a lab or heeler lol. and bring year supply of dog food i will have him hunting and baying a hog. i cant garentee stopping a hog. i got a hound cross Dad came of tshelly on here dad was open from what he said. both pups i had off him was completly silent. Genetics??? MORE LIKE LUCK NOT EVERY HOUND IS OPEN NOT EVERY CUR IS SILETN. NOT EVERY DOG IS A HOG DOG...... THIS IS MAINLY HEART NOT GENETICS. Are you serious??? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 26, 2011, 09:41:58 am yea im serious.
there is so much argueing and the last page kinda pisssed me off they was pretty much leading to dog trainers are scared of the deal ill train a dog just for the bragging rights. Cause it can be done. i will run them with my best dog LONG RANGE and hope he eventually takes to her hunting style. but ill get him goin weather its 100yrds or 1 mile Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Circle C on July 26, 2011, 09:45:55 am Quote i dont want a bet cause i dont got the money to pay. i get back to waco tx aug 15. now i can do like ole boy said earlier on that he will drop off a dog and give me a year and if he a HOG DOG then he will buy him bak if u bring me a dog that is hog dog bread like cur, cat ,walker i dont want a lab or heeler lol. and bring year supply of dog food i will have him hunting and baying a hog. i cant garentee stopping a hog. If I am understanding this right, you want someone to bring you a dog that is genetically predisposed to hunt and bay game, and you will have it doing what it is bred to do within a year.... Man you must be one hell of a dog trainer. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 26, 2011, 09:50:27 am i just think i can... i have trained some culls before.
my father in law has trained dogs i never thought could be. he has his pups started at 8wks Me and him will get the dog going. but if he turns out in a year who ever dog it is will have to pay what he worth. Mike if its u i just want money for food and maybe a little extra in the end u know Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 26, 2011, 09:52:32 am im going to get off here so anyone interested
TXT ME 254-366-0315 well settle this with TRAINING Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: ric.o on July 26, 2011, 10:02:05 am Is ninja going under the name centexhogdooger now?
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 26, 2011, 10:06:29 am No rico. My name is Trey
I alway been centexhogdogger Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: LionandBoarHunter on July 26, 2011, 10:21:37 am centexhodogger i would send a dog to you for nothin by reading thru your posts your a dog trader i would be scarred you sale or trade my dog off in about a week :o
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: cantexduck on July 26, 2011, 10:26:51 am Centex, I have a dog for you. Let me know when you want to meet.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 26, 2011, 10:27:46 am My offer still stands if any Dog Trainers want some.
You give me $500 for the dog keep him a yr and If he will-Hunt long range 500+ yards,stop a runner,bay,not trash I buy him back in a yr for $2500. No feed No gas Straight up deal he or she is yours for a yr. This is a no brainer for all the Dog Trainers I've heard all that Chit talk,Step up and get you some. If your sucessful I have a pen full of them I will start sending your way. Hell you could probably retire a wealthy Dog Trainer in a few years. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 26, 2011, 10:35:02 am i would have no problem with that deal except i dont got the money to do it.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 26, 2011, 10:39:01 am Centex this is not calling you out This is for anyone that claims to be a dog trainer.
I believe in Genetics so strongly this is a great bet for me. I've pissed off alot more at the crap table with not near as much fun as this could be. ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 26, 2011, 11:38:22 am mike can i get ur number????
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: johnie on July 26, 2011, 11:56:08 am Sounds to me like 5 or 6 of yall need to set up a hunt. Not for the dogs, a good ol' back woods brawl. Think that's what most posts are boiling down too. Basically its plain and simple, everyone does there own thing. Prob will keep doing everything they do if that's what they like.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Reuben on July 26, 2011, 01:28:02 pm yea im serious. there is so much argueing and the last page kinda pisssed me off they was pretty much leading to dog trainers are scared of the deal ill train a dog just for the bragging rights. Cause it can be done. i will run them with my best dog LONG RANGE and hope he eventually takes to her hunting style. but ill get him goin weather its 100yrds or 1 mile centexhogdogger, I think it can be done but the dog had it in him to begin with...But most dogs of this type are usually good me to dogs. They are good for the pack but take that lead dog out and the 1 mile me too dog starts hanging out close and all of a sudden you go from catching hogs to not catching any hogs to speak of...Every dog in the pack should be analyzed for what it is. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Noah on July 26, 2011, 05:33:45 pm Man, I got people tryin' to give me dogs all the time.. nice dogs... anybody with any sense raisin' dogs want's his dogs to go to someone that can bring out the best in them...
I just gave away half my yard to free me up to put my energy into my 2 remaining young dogs... For me to fool with someone else's junk means taking time away from my dogs... which is MUCH more valuable than $2500. Was a fun topic though, thanks Mike ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Jabo on July 26, 2011, 06:15:54 pm I got a headache now.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 26, 2011, 06:56:01 pm OK you talked me into it.
I double the offer to $5000 cash. If that makes any better. OH look here just in off the press. southtexasdogger said he would go another $2500 That makes it $7500 And Im serious as can be. Well that would be worth it. ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 26, 2011, 06:58:18 pm And Noah Im not calling you out This is an offer to All the dog trainers on ETHD's.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: cantexduck on July 26, 2011, 07:01:45 pm By what I read, all the trainers craw fished. Who would of thought.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Noah on July 26, 2011, 07:06:40 pm Hmmmm... ;D
A question though, why would you risk that much money to prove a point on a dud prospect when you could get a much better product from a good prospect? Used to drive me crazy when people would insist on me training a horse to do somethin' it just didn't want to do... sure I'll take your money... but why not just put your money into an animal that wants to... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 26, 2011, 07:09:09 pm The reason is that they are smart enough to know the chances of pulling it off are VERY VERY slim.
Now if a gave them one of my 11 month old linebred Genetics from hell pups that are already finding pigs on their own. They would jump all over that bet. For all those dog trainers that have been slappin them gums about ability to TRAIN a dog to hunt and stop and bay and bla,bla,bla You could sure buy alot of doggin chit or pay a few bills with $7500 :o Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 26, 2011, 07:12:15 pm Noah,
That would be called GENETICS and I have over $50,000 tied up in them now. I think I've put enough into the ones that want to. And Damn I love a good bet,I just can't help myself. ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Noah on July 26, 2011, 07:20:05 pm I can just imagine the poor dog in question for this bet... I bet he's a specimen... ;D
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 26, 2011, 07:32:30 pm I'll never tell ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: got2catchem on July 26, 2011, 07:34:48 pm So back to training vs genetics .....can you take a barn yard rooster and train him to compete and consistently win against a old family of good,genetically strong hatch chickens? Or a ole blue pet bull and train it to compete on a high level and win consistently against a good family of game dogs? ? No.....the GENETICS are not there....period, right? Best way I've seen it put yet.... (http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w234/got2catchem/popcorn.gif) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 26, 2011, 07:41:04 pm I still say I can do it.. Aslong as dog shows energy and not just a dud no matter wat genetics
I would take bet if I had the money to buy the dog Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 26, 2011, 07:58:44 pm Centex I will text you pics of the dog I am betting with.
I can tell you this much the kid that owns him go's to the local college and has had this dog with me no less than 50 hunts. Why he would even feed him is beside me. He is a 3 yr old blk brindle that no tellin where he came from. He has absolutly NO hunt at all. He will walk beside you all night rather you are walking or hunting off ATV's. He will only catch when you have walked all the way to the bay and the bulldogs have hit. Other than that he is a purdy dog rolleyes He is gonna need alot of TRAINING ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: tnhillbilly on July 26, 2011, 08:09:49 pm $7,500 would buy alot of school supplys.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 26, 2011, 08:13:23 pm Im really the only one that has anything to loose.
A Dog trainer could really make a name for himself right here ;) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: cward on July 26, 2011, 08:35:45 pm Ain't non of ya'll no what your talking about. Send me your dog a pack of Oscar Myer Weiners only the ones made with pork cause I don't want them to be trashing on chickens. Make sure the dog comes from walmart parking lot that way if I can't train him then I can take him back. On make sure its a female cause they take to wiennies better than males. If you need any training advice on dogs call me any time. I own several guns that will train most dogs to find there way home.
:o Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 26, 2011, 08:39:43 pm Let me see if my truck sales and when I get back
If it does il buy him and do the deal What do u want the dog to do when u pick him up Seriously Like would hunting 200yrds and find pig work Would him beside u and hit a trail to hunt work Like wat would u want Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 26, 2011, 08:56:19 pm Read my post about the deal that I've made.
Must hunt out 500+ yards,stop a runner,bay etc... In a yr If this dog will do these things I will buy him back for $7500 If he will not do these things I walk off and you own a $500 POS. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: cantexduck on July 26, 2011, 08:57:00 pm Im really the only one that has anything to loose. A Dog trainer could really make a name for himself right here ;) Seems they ran off........ $7,500 would buy alot of school supplys. True. I can just imagine the poor dog in question for this bet... I bet he's a specimen... ;D So is that a no to the bet Kessling is offering? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Cutter Bay Kennels on July 26, 2011, 09:11:50 pm Ain't non of ya'll no what your talking about. Send me your dog a pack of Oscar Myer Weiners only the ones made with pork cause I don't want them to be trashing on chickens. Make sure the dog comes from walmart parking lot that way if I can't train him then I can take him back. On make sure its a female cause they take to wiennies better than males. If you need any training advice on dogs call me any time. I own several guns that will train most dogs to find there way home. :o Great post sir. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: YELLOWBLACKMASK on July 27, 2011, 10:41:52 pm ... why are folks with good lines and line bred dogs the ones that don't distribute their pups to just anybody? I know the answer for me but what's some other answers? Are they really not that great? Hahaha...because there are a lot of people who would try to reproduce them, call them "their line" and attempt to make a buck off someone else's hard work and dedication. I'll also say that most people with good lines also don't breed until they have a need. Usually pups are kept, or if there DOES happen to be any extras they are spoken for long before the breeding ever took place. I People with good lines also VERY seldom buy dogs. Excellent quote bro! Been keeping up with this thread and this is the most wholesome down to earth speaking from experience quote so far. 110% my thoughts as well. X200 Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Stick on July 28, 2011, 06:19:25 pm I gave a pup outta my dogs that came from Randy wright to a buddy that lives in a neighborhood in magnolia He raised the dog to be a house dog At a little over a year old he took the dog to his in laws land where the dog saw his first cow He bunched them and bayed for several hours all by himself until was called off I'd say genetics played a large roll
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: geronimo on July 28, 2011, 06:37:40 pm I gave a pup outta my dogs that came from Randy wright to a buddy that lives in a neighborhood in magnolia He raised the dog to be a house dog At a little over a year old he took the dog to his in laws land where the dog saw his first cow He bunched them and bayed for several hours all by himself until was called off I'd say genetics played a large roll the cows prob been worked by dogs before and my wifes lap dog will run and stand nose to nose with a cow, as long as she dont try to catch why would the cows break? now if the dog trailed and bunched up a herd of cows in the woods and bayed that long on some woods cows then you might impress me?Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: geronimo on July 28, 2011, 06:42:32 pm Read my post about the deal that I've made. enough big talk. just hunt the perfect line bred dogs you have, you shouldnt need better dogs? 50,000 dollars your genetic dogs should be top notch. people always want to use big talk and money to scare someone out of a bet? just have an opinion and voice it without all the challenging? sorry to sound like a smart azz but man this was a good topic but it been beat to death...Must hunt out 500+ yards,stop a runner,bay etc... In a yr If this dog will do these things I will buy him back for $7500 If he will not do these things I walk off and you own a $500 POS. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: jdt on July 28, 2011, 08:28:26 pm who started all this crap anyways ??? :D :D he oughtta be banned for life ! lol
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 28, 2011, 08:49:22 pm Geronimo,
Im not trying to improve my kennels,Im very happy with them. If you read all the post you would have learned that there were a couple of so called Dog trainers stating that they could take any old dog and make it hunt. This was and still is a bet If you would like to try it than my offer still stands. My money should not scare anyone off of a bet,If they could perform the task that they claim to do than it should be a no brainer. I get sick of people that talk all this BS and run like a puppy when they get called up. If a man cant fight than he should not crawl in the ring with the wolves. This is what's wrong with our country today NO Backbone! Geronimo-This is not directed to you personally,You struck the match and Im pissing on the fire. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Stick on July 29, 2011, 03:19:37 pm I gave a pup outta my dogs that came from Randy wright to a buddy that lives in a neighborhood in magnolia He raised the dog to be a house dog At a little over a year old he took the dog to his in laws land where the dog saw his first cow He bunched them and bayed for several hours all by himself until was called off I'd say genetics played a large roll the cows prob been worked by dogs before and my wifes lap dog will run and stand nose to nose with a cow, as long as she dont try to catch why would the cows break? now if the dog trailed and bunched up a herd of cows in the woods and bayed that long on some woods cows then you might impress me?I wasn't trying to impress you I was giving my thoughts on the subject, FYI the cows wernt dog broke maybe ur lap dogs are as good as my curs Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: geronimo on July 29, 2011, 03:50:13 pm I gave a pup outta my dogs that came from Randy wright to a buddy that lives in a neighborhood in magnolia He raised the dog to be a house dog At a little over a year old he took the dog to his in laws land where the dog saw his first cow He bunched them and bayed for several hours all by himself until was called off I'd say genetics played a large roll the cows prob been worked by dogs before and my wifes lap dog will run and stand nose to nose with a cow, as long as she dont try to catch why would the cows break? now if the dog trailed and bunched up a herd of cows in the woods and bayed that long on some woods cows then you might impress me?I wasn't trying to impress you I was giving my thoughts on the subject, FYI the cows wernt dog broke maybe ur lap dogs are as good as my curs Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 29, 2011, 06:53:05 pm I know a few good dog men myself and they are very good at what they do"I wish I had that much time and patience".
Again most will not spend that much time with a dog unless they know it has enough will to hunt in them such as Genetics. Most good dog men have their own line they have been working with for yrs and their dad's probably ran the same line for yrs before that. Teaching a dog to load,sit,lead,etc... are very nice extras in the woods but it does not make a great hog dog in my eyes. Some of the best I've ever hunted behind belonged to other people I could not even put my hands on them,But they were super stars when you turned them out. Im the 1st to get in someones azz and I will apoligize if Ive pissed anyone off kinda my lifestyle ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 29, 2011, 09:50:05 pm Hey I just throwin this out there
A dog does not have to have the genetics to want to pls the owner Or to learn to hunt It just has to have heart Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 29, 2011, 10:13:43 pm Your correct Heart comes from genetics.
Genetics = Traits such as Heart,Will to go the extra mile,brains,etc... You breed to improve genetics. Example: Male dog that hunts out long range,very independent,ruff as hell,etc.... If your looking to breed some of that grit out of them you would look for a female that has traits that you desire and not real ruff. In these pups your gonna have, say you have a female that wont hunt out by herself then you would look for a longer range more independent male. This can go anyway that you like. This is genetics 101 plan and simple. If you take two dogs and breed them and neither one will hunt hogs these two don't care desired genetics to waist your time with in most cases. Sure there are freaks of nature but if your breeding for diffrent traits in a pair you are breeding for genetics. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 29, 2011, 10:24:25 pm See I had and my buddy each got a catahoula
Blip line was petagread The parents was cow dogs and just breading None was hunting background Well as far as my petagree went And turned out great bay pen dogs And great hunting dogs It's like humans Traits are passed to kids like muscle And speed u know normal Well if a person that has no traits like that Can train hard and become that Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 29, 2011, 10:26:40 pm You guy that raise Dogos should know alot about genetics good and bad.
Dogos care several genetic disorders such as: Deafness Skin problems Hip Dysplasia These are undisired genetics. You sure would not want to breed two dogs that you knew carried these traits. These are bad genetics. Good genetics: Toughness Heart Easy handle Will to please Etc............... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 29, 2011, 10:30:06 pm I'm not sayin genetics don't make every dog
Some dogs that have no hunting genetics make dogs Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on July 29, 2011, 10:31:23 pm I dont know you at all Im giving an example here:
If a guy that is 150lbs 5'5" eats correct and works out everyday he will never be 6'5" 250# because he does not have the genetic makeup to be that size. If a guy is 5'5" no matter how hard he trains will probably not ever win the slam dunk contest in the NBA. Unless your spud Web ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Stick on July 29, 2011, 10:40:59 pm I gave a pup outta my dogs that came from Randy wright to a buddy that lives in a neighborhood in magnolia He raised the dog to be a house dog At a little over a year old he took the dog to his in laws land where the dog saw his first cow He bunched them and bayed for several hours all by himself until was called off I'd say genetics played a large roll the cows prob been worked by dogs before and my wifes lap dog will run and stand nose to nose with a cow, as long as she dont try to catch why would the cows break? now if the dog trailed and bunched up a herd of cows in the woods and bayed that long on some woods cows then you might impress me?I wasn't trying to impress you I was giving my thoughts on the subject, FYI the cows wernt dog broke maybe ur lap dogs are as good as my curs Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: big D on July 30, 2011, 12:23:42 am ive been on both sides ive tooking puond dogs and made good ones and rasied a few but to me is all on how you pick your dogs.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Stick on July 30, 2011, 05:38:59 am I agree 100%
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on July 30, 2011, 09:00:44 am X2
That what I been tryin to say Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: houndsofhell55 on August 01, 2011, 11:11:28 am i train dogs for a living and 99% of it is genetics theres one everynow and then that makes a great hogdog but if a dog dont have heart he ant gonna make in my kennels.You cant make a dog hunt if dont want to hunt.You cant make a dog be ruff if it isnt ruff thats just how it is.If a dog is short ranged you cant make him go a mile to find a hog if somone on here thinks they can come down i want to see it done...
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Reuben on August 01, 2011, 11:33:31 am You cant make a dog hunt if dont want to hunt.You cant make a dog be ruff if it isnt ruff thats just how it is.If a dog is short ranged you cant make him go a mile to find a hog if somone on here thinks they can come down i want to see it done... x2... :) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: BigCutters4 on August 01, 2011, 03:44:27 pm good genetics gives a trainer something easier to work with
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: TexasHogDogs on August 01, 2011, 03:55:02 pm I dont know you at all Im giving an example here: If a guy that is 150lbs 5'5" eats correct and works out everyday he will never be 6'5" 250# because he does not have the genetic makeup to be that size. If a guy is 5'5" no matter how hard he trains will probably not ever win the slam dunk contest in the NBA. Unless your spud Web ;D I don't know how it gets any more simple than this statement if people cannot understand that might was well give up . Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: cantexduck on August 01, 2011, 04:08:51 pm See I had and my buddy each got a catahoula Blip line was petagread The parents was cow dogs and just breading None was hunting background Well as far as my petagree went And turned out great bay pen dogs And great hunting dogs It's like humans Traits are passed to kids like muscle And speed u know normal Well if a person that has no traits like that Can train hard and become that I have no idea what you are saying. You guy that raise Dogos should know alot about genetics good and bad. Dogos care several genetic disorders such as: Deafness Skin problems Hip Dysplasia These are undisired genetics. You sure would not want to breed two dogs that you knew carried these traits. These are bad genetics. Good genetics: Toughness Heart Easy handle Will to please Etc............... Nice post and Tarr or is that an ibex? Small picture. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on August 01, 2011, 04:11:23 pm I've tryed to explain it but I give up. rolleyes
I hope all the pound dogs turn out for those guys. And apperantly it can't be done ,none of the real dog trainer have stepped up for the deal I offered. Come on guys you will work with a dog for 2 yrs and sell them for $800 to $1500 but wont take one for a yr and make $7500. :laugh: Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on August 01, 2011, 04:14:06 pm cantexduck,
Asian Ibex Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: sfboarbuster on August 01, 2011, 04:19:14 pm See I had and my buddy each got a catahoula Blip line was petagread The parents was cow dogs and just breading None was hunting background Well as far as my petagree went And turned out great bay pen dogs And great hunting dogs It's like humans Traits are passed to kids like muscle And speed u know normal Well if a person that has no traits like that Can train hard and become that So these catahoulas came out of cowdogs, correct? Do you know most all cur dogs that we use on hogs came from cowdogs somewhere down the line? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: treeingratterrier on August 01, 2011, 05:22:10 pm I've tryed to explain it but I give up. rolleyes Putting on Devils advocate Hat, How about all of the pound dog trainers take up a collection and buy a pup from your bloodline, then the pound and you train it to go 500 yards, bark off the hood, turn on Klingon Cloaking Device when dumped off and follow a hog 3 miles by itself and bay up hogs and drive them to a pen and close the gate and lock it's by itself. If your super dog to die for strain does not do what you require the dog trainers to do you pay $7500 to them?? Surely your offer is good for the goose as well as the gander??? LOL just stiring the pot for the dog pound kettle mutts i got....What say ye???I hope all the pound dogs turn out for those guys. And apperantly it can't be done ,none of the real dog trainer have stepped up for the deal I offered. Come on guys you will work with a dog for 2 yrs and sell them for $800 to $1500 but wont take one for a yr and make $7500. :laugh: Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: ole shep on August 01, 2011, 05:28:52 pm Kessling, Would you please just front him the dog before I do something stupid. I would like for the trainer to post weekly proggress reports. Cut the buy back price down.Im curius of out come because im hauling a dark brindle that does the same thing.And she probably has a brother or sister that is looking at a bear, lion or boar right now. She is progressing oh so slowly.
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: geronimo on August 01, 2011, 06:31:28 pm I've tryed to explain it but I give up. rolleyes Putting on Devils advocate Hat, How about all of the pound dog trainers take up a collection and buy a pup from your bloodline, then the pound and you train it to go 500 yards, bark off the hood, turn on Klingon Cloaking Device when dumped off and follow a hog 3 miles by itself and bay up hogs and drive them to a pen and close the gate and lock it's by itself. If your super dog to die for strain does not do what you require the dog trainers to do you pay $7500 to them?? Surely your offer is good for the goose as well as the gander??? LOL just stiring the pot for the dog pound kettle mutts i got....What say ye???I hope all the pound dogs turn out for those guys. And apperantly it can't be done ,none of the real dog trainer have stepped up for the deal I offered. Come on guys you will work with a dog for 2 yrs and sell them for $800 to $1500 but wont take one for a yr and make $7500. :laugh: Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on August 01, 2011, 07:47:04 pm See i understand about my cat being out cow dogs
That what I'm stating Even if there parents are good don't mean pups won't be Everydog had to have some training Every litter has duds I'm not sayin every dog makes a dog Read my signature My best dogs dad was open like no other And she is silents Were arguing does training help just as much as grntics And yes it does Dang if ya u want to front the dog free I will give it hell of a shot on training Houndsofhell Trains his dogs great I got one my best from him But she was stolen and never got her back. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Scott on August 01, 2011, 07:53:49 pm Since you mentioned houndsofhell...did read his thoughts on this subject.
i train dogs for a living and 99% of it is genetics theres one everynow and then that makes a great hogdog but if a dog dont have heart he ant gonna make in my kennels.You cant make a dog hunt if dont want to hunt.You cant make a dog be ruff if it isnt ruff thats just how it is.If a dog is short ranged you cant make him go a mile to find a hog if somone on here thinks they can come down i want to see it done... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on August 01, 2011, 08:26:58 pm Yea that what I'm sayn
Not all dogs have heart to hunt But that don't mean anythin about the genetics There can be a dog out of awsome lines that a dud There can be dog out of number 2ty lines that makes great dog It all depends on dog But Yes on buyin dogs I would follow genetics first Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Cutter Bay Kennels on August 01, 2011, 08:30:03 pm Yea that what I'm sayn Not all dogs have heart to hunt But that don't mean anythin about the genetics There can be a dog out of awsome lines that a dud There can be dog out of number 2ty lines that makes great dog It all depends on dog But Yes on buyin dogs I would follow genetics first How many dogs have you owned? How many were solely trained by you? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on August 01, 2011, 08:36:04 pm I have trained many dogs for friends
This has nothin to do with this I'm just sayin that u can get good dogs out if both good and bad lines I'm leaving it at that Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: treeingratterrier on August 01, 2011, 09:00:32 pm Personally, I would rather bet on the truck full of dog pound dogs that a dogman trained to catch hogs vs the suposed superdog strain, usually the dogpounder will have better dogs because he knows no input(training) no hog output. When I read some of these superdog brags i wonder if when they sell a pup do they say to the buyer, just get a handle on it and dont worry about the trainng, its bred to strike bay drive by itself 500 yards, just turn it loose???
What difference does how many dogs a guy owns or has hunted make anyways?? Some never get it and repeat the same mistake over and over, somebody could buy and train 10 or 20 dogpounders and figure it out i figure??lol Personally I think these super long range gentically superior dogs dont have a big market anyways, places to small, too many ride 4x4s and ride or walk with the dogs, they want to sit in a truck and make the dog do it all cuase they wont wear out a pair of boots or lather up a mule or horselol ducking now back to the dogpoundercentral... Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Reuben on August 01, 2011, 09:05:37 pm I have trained many dogs for friends This has nothin to do with this I'm just sayin that u can get good dogs out if both good and bad lines I'm leaving it at that breeding dogs is complicated when we are talking about an open pedigree which really only means that we are talking about one breed of dogs but no relations in the pedigree to speak of. This makes it to where the genes are very diversified. The way I understand it is that the parents contribute 50%, grandparents 25% and the great grandparents contribute 12.5% of the genetic makeup to the pups and so on etc. etc. This lowers the pecentage of consistantly getting pups that have hunting qualities especially if not all the dogs in the lineage were hunting dogs. Besides, too many people have different ideas as to what a good hunting dog is. This explains why sometimes the parents don't hunt and some of the offspring will. We can also have pups that won't hunt for 2 years and all of a sudden the switch trips and they start hunting. This is still genetics at work and I believe some folks may confuse it with training...not saying that training and sticking with the pup didn't help... I would have culled this pup at ten months if it didn't show me a certain amount of natural ability for this age. I see a dog that finally starts as a 2 year old as one that will pass those traits. I am not contadicting myself because of the percent contributions I just talked about...We have to start somewhere and I believe that we have to keep the dogs that meet our requirements if we want to breed a higher percentage of good dogs AND THIS IS CALLED GENETICS... The higher the percentage of good dogs in a bloodline, especially close up, will give us a higher percentage of good pups and we as breeders should do our best to keep the very best of the pups, not just for hunting but it is more important to do so for breeding...if we are breeding dogs. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Scott on August 01, 2011, 09:49:50 pm Personally, I would rather bet on the truck full of dog pound dogs that a dogman trained to catch hogs vs the suposed superdog strain, usually the dogpounder will have better dogs because he knows no input(training) no hog output. Now, my turn to play devil's advocate: according to the above...a dogman would never have to cull a dog (any, or every for that matter, dog on the planet should be able to be trained to find and catch hogs). I think maybe there is a disconnect in the language being used. I know for me, what some here have described as training...I consider exposure. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: chainrated on August 02, 2011, 07:22:16 am Centex, You said you are 20 years old right?
At 20 years old how many hogdogs have you trained and finished out? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on August 02, 2011, 08:53:27 am Here again I have a bet for $7500 and you trainers keep bumping your gums and blow hards wont step up, You will stand across the fence and call names but wont get in the fight.
I dont sell pups and could care less what anyone thinks about my dogs. 90% of my pups are gone before they hit the ground. I hunt hogs for fun and every opertunity I get to improve my game I take it. If your happy hunting a pound dog and thats what you like to waist your time on then great WHO cares? This was a bet for anyone calling theirselves a dog trainer. I think I have some good genetics in my dogs and there are turds in every litter.In my yrs of breeding a Super dogs comes maybe once or if your lucky twice in a lifetime. In litters of 10 If 5 turn out to be really good dogs I feel lucky but, I know what Im dealing with each time and I can work on correcting it in Genetics the next breeding. My question to all is "Why would you take the time and money it takes to raise and start and finish a dog that you know nothing about verses getting a pup from a established breeder that has yrs of breeding behind him and you know the pup has potiential to be good?" By the way who ever was asking where I went I was hunting last night And I will never run from a fight I promise ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on August 02, 2011, 09:16:11 am I've tryed to explain it but I give up. rolleyes Putting on Devils advocate Hat, How about all of the pound dog trainers take up a collection and buy a pup from your bloodline, then the pound and you train it to go 500 yards, bark off the hood, turn on Klingon Cloaking Device when dumped off and follow a hog 3 miles by itself and bay up hogs and drive them to a pen and close the gate and lock it's by itself. If your super dog to die for strain does not do what you require the dog trainers to do you pay $7500 to them?? Surely your offer is good for the goose as well as the gander??? LOL just stiring the pot for the dog pound kettle mutts i got....What say ye???I hope all the pound dogs turn out for those guys. And apperantly it can't be done ,none of the real dog trainer have stepped up for the deal I offered. Come on guys you will work with a dog for 2 yrs and sell them for $800 to $1500 but wont take one for a yr and make $7500. :laugh: I never said it could be done,I sure don't think I can acomplish this task with any dog even my own. I think to finish a dog out takes several yrs. Again its a bet If you dont want in than stay out of the hunt plan and simple. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Circle C on August 02, 2011, 09:21:41 am (http://www.bigfollow.com/pictures/10027-BEATING_A_DEAD_HORSE-The_office_space_scene_with_a_dead_horse.jpg)
After the last few pages, this is the image I have in my mind. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: HS on August 02, 2011, 09:29:04 am Centex, You said you are 20 years old right? x2At 20 years old how many hogdogs have you trained and finished out? Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on August 02, 2011, 09:46:01 am X2 Chris
Theres Republicans and Democrates,there are boys and girls,there is hot and cold too many diffrent opinions and beliefs. This horse has had buzzards over it awhile now. Lets move on to Hounds verses Curs ;D ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Reuben on August 02, 2011, 10:43:48 am X2 Chris Theres Republicans and Democrates,there are boys and girls,there is hot and cold too many diffrent opinions and beliefs. This horse has had buzzards over it awhile now. Lets move on to Hounds verses Curs ;D ;D The horse is not really dead. We just put him to sleep... ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on August 02, 2011, 11:01:32 am That would mean he could possibly awake,We sure would'nt want that to happen now would we ;D
Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on August 02, 2011, 11:09:37 am See yal turnin what I'm sayin around
I agree that I would rather buy a dog with good Genetics than none.. But I was stating that u can get good dog out if bad genetics. Not as often but it's there. But I'm done with this post Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on August 02, 2011, 11:55:00 am Ther is no such thing as a good dog out of bad genetics!
Im convienced that many do not know what genetics are and in my observation are very confused on what they are talking about.JMO Please do not sign up for Algebra 2 if you have not taken FOM (Fundamentals of math) Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: YELLOWBLACKMASK on August 02, 2011, 01:27:16 pm Yea thanks Mike. Now on to Light VS Dark Beer.
I think I could train myself to drink dark beer but I am genetically wired for light beer. Ohhh here we go again. ;D Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on August 02, 2011, 02:16:26 pm Actually I already passed. Trig
So u can stop running ur mouth I'm done With this post I'm tired of readin And more things posted about what I said And on on on even when I don't write anythin Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Kessling Kennels on August 02, 2011, 02:29:07 pm Mike,
Lets have a Tournament between the pound dogs verses the genetic super stars. I will donate the 1st $1000 added money. We can settle this one out right. Title: Re: Training vs Genetics. Post by: Centexhogdogger on August 02, 2011, 03:03:58 pm I wasn't tryin to be an ass I just satin I'm out of this thread
So I just don't want my name in it anymore This full thing was based on opions. Nice having the debate though |