EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Let's get another topic rollin'. ;D

I hear a lot of people expecting their dogs to be getting it done at a year old. To me, a year old dog is just a puppy and ready to be started, on real hunts, around that time... plus or minus a few months depending on their maturity level.

I judge a dog between one and two years old. I can't see culling a dog less than a year old unless there is a physical or mental issue. They should steadily progress through out that first year and by age two be on their way to making a dog. Those six month old superstars are impressive, but it always seems like they burn out early or hit a certain level and don't get any better with age... whereas the later bloomers seem to steadily get better with age.

I AGREE 100% Met an older gentleman around cleburn tx one time,raised curs for working cows. He would gurantee his pups to work or your money back.......BUT the pup had to reach 18 months old before u bought it back. He said he never had one come back because by the time the dog had reached at least that age its genetic potential was just starting to peak and with more time invested people actually thought/knew they had a decent dog on their hands. This dog training deal takes time,time and more time.

...............And he strikes another match and throws it on the pile.  ;D

Hahahaha ;D where ya been peach

I agree ....that pup the other night doing good was nice but don't mean he will make a dog
I seen lots of them one hit "wonders" burn out or never get better and sometimes get worse. Used to see it alot in beagles

OOOOOO Brotha you just prodding for a heated discussion.  LOL

I will just throw out.     I would rather be catching hogs with a two year old for one year vs waiting for a two year old to find his first.

All I will say I PROMISE. Hehe

Good luck with this one boys    ;)

The pups I've had I've started at around a year old.  Much earlier and I feel like I'm sending a boy to do a man's job.  I might let them bark at a hog in a trailer or pen or whatever before that, maybe get in a pen with a hog but not much for serious hunting.  I do like to take them for walks in the woods, rides on four wheelers etc. before that though.  I would like the actual hunting to be the only new thing when I take them hunting for the first time. 

I agree Catchrcall. I spend a lot of time getting them used to loading up and going places and working on a few commands and body language before they actually hunt.

My old yellow dog was almost 3 years old before he really turned on. I had pretty much given up on makin him a hog dog and was fine just keeping him as a pet and one day he decided he would hunt hogs. The old man I got him from kept telling me to be patient with him and he was right. His father was the same way. He would stay right under your feet until he was 2 years old. Then he made the best hog dog I've ever seen. I've had some that acted like they were maturing a lot faster but always had some other problem they couldn't get over and usually went down hill instead of getting better. I prefer a late bloomer and to take my time training a dog.

when to train is different depending on the dog. which in turn goes back to genetics-linebreeding.
joey denison introduced his pups at 2 months to a pig. every couple weeks they went back . he documented this very well and if at 6 months they werent getting it done the were a cull. and he only bred the best. thats what made his bloodline so strong. this way has been proven over and over thru the years.cant argue that point b/c it works. so if u have to feed a dog till 18 months just to knowwhetner or not it will hunt. You are already losing time and money. I would consider a different pound or walmart.

So was he just culling crappy dogs, no it was probably just his style of his breeding program. Who to say that those dogs that were culled early wouldn't of been better than the ones that started early. So someone might consider a slow starter for there program normal and other breeder not.

So is it genetics or training

I forgot to put lol  ;D. I myself am not going to wait 2 years but some folks do.

like most good hog doggers u could make a pack out of his culls and mine too. it depens on whaat level of hog dog u have. I give mine to 9 months. if they arent baying right and hunting with the big dogs. then off to the farmer in atmore. when i first started I would get all the culls from around me. I later culled a bunch and fed way to many dogs for far to long. I now hunt on a better level. but Im getting better each year.

Me personally I don't spend hardly ann money off a wal-mart parking lot dog or a pound dog if he doesn't work. I try him 2-3 times and if he don't show interest he off to the the farm lol. So I might spend 8 cups of dog food. So if u waiting months to see if a wal-mart dog works well shame on u. Everybodies different that's what makes it I fun.

Ric.o,

This breeder you are talking about culls at 6 months...more than likely he wants the very best. Early starters beget more early starters, but it does not mean the other pups won't turn on at 1 year old.

Most breeders when needing one dog for breeding/hunting should test the pups and cull down to four or five pups or so when selecting for that one (testing). As the pups get older cull down some more. By the time the pups are 6 months old that good breeder should be down to 3 pups and by 10 months old should be down to 2 or 1 pup.

I like a pup that can show me some good things at 6 months but I want a pup that is hunting pretty good by 10 months and for sure by 1 year. When I use the word culling I ean that the pup is not meeting the ctiteria at a given time (age versus level of progression). The older the cull the better the pup should be in this case.

Life is too short to be waiting on a dog to see if it will turn on or not...Most folks don't have the space for this type of dog or the money to keep feeding this questionable dog.

Three years waiting on a dog to turn on, Nah not here.  Mine r hitn the woods at six months and better b getn it done at 1 r 1 1/2.  I have before sent pups to my dad to b worked on cows till there about a year old and then introduce em to the woods and have not had any problems.  No offense but waiting three years for a dog to leave ur feet is not what i want in my bloodline.

my main dog right now was stirken hogs and hunting 600+ yards at 6 months.
 
i like early starters just cause there not as stressful but when they start late they got better handle.

so idc aslong as they start

I'm not in any hurry.  I don't breed my own dogs, and I don't start more than one pup at a time if I can help it.  I've got a dog that is two now, and is doing real well in the woods but around six-nine months he wouldn't hardly bark at a shoat in a trailer when I showed him one(my Cleatus dog for those that have seen him).  We started him I think right at a year and within a couple months he was starting to find a hog or two.  If I'd have gotten impatient and culled I'd have been out a good dog.  For me it's worth the wait to see if they are going to turn out rather than go to culling before a dog has even come close to maturing.  

I think I need to just cull my whole yard,  pups at six months striking hogs and going a mile out staying a couple hours holding hogs.  Culling babies under a  year old, hell mine are just starting to learn what it is all about at those tender ages might have one stumble up on a hog here and there but he damn sure don't really know what he is doing yet it would be just his genetics kicking in and him learning what he was born to do.

I hardly believe a damn thing I hear so till I see it with my own eyes and on a steady term its just all talk and conversation.

I guess my pot licker's better step it up and me too for that matter with dogs like these being born and seem to be at a alarming rate ain't gonna be many hogs left for mine to find here in a couple years.

Were might a man inquire about some of these dogs?

I will take a fast starting dog any day of the week, I respect what some have seen but if I am going to feed it it needs to start early and keep improving.

Mike are we gonna have to put you on probation for stirring the pot  ;D

Ha ha ha... ain't no pot stirring here, just good discussion. It's unfortunate that some can't have a good discussion without getting all wadded up. ;)

I don't necessarily set time limits or constraints on my dogs as far as they must be doing this by this age or whatever.  What I do require is that they keep my attention.  Little things I watch for that show the progression.  I'll have a lot more patience in the end with a dog thats keeping me interested.

We'd rather them start early vs late.. I understand it varies though some lines produce digs at a later age while some start with fireballs around 8 or 9 months.. It's hard to feed a 2 year old that's still trying to come into his own when you have 3 or 4 year old dogs that are as good or better. Luckily the line I get to hunt starts very early.

The best dog I've ever seen though was a slow developer! At a year old she didn't really care to bay hog but loved to hunt and was extremely fast. I told E to cull her one day! A couple weeks later her and some other pups ran a deer past the house and she was 200 yards in from of the other dogs, literally grabbing tail on the deer. He decided to keep her a while longer bc she was so fast. By age 3 she was big e's best dog, tragically she came up missing last year

I don't agree that the dogs that start so young 'burn out' as some ppl like to say. I believe it is more that ppl set too high of expectations when the dog is doing so well at a young age, that unless they turn into a super hog dog they don't live up to their above average start

I let my pups see a small pig at 4 months to see there interest level and if they will bay. After that they are kept or culled and the ones that are kept start riding in the box or on top of the box till about 8 months when I start letting them go to bays and run with the big dogs. I dont rush my dogs I fully believe they need to mature and grow into there body's. That doesnt mean im keeping them till there 3 either, If there not finding and baying hogs CONSISTENTLY by 2 years old I dont want them. I know there are late bloomers and early starters I myself have not had a pup finding and baying hogs CONSISTENTLY  at 6 months old. I wish I did tho  ;D

Just curious to the ones that require early starters, do you ever wonder that you might be culling your best dog out of the litter just b/c he doesnt start as early if the object is becoming  a hog dog and not how fast one can get there?

My thoughts exactly.

i didn't want to let this out but thats why i garranty my pups till a year old ,you feed em for a year for me and they dont work i'll refund purchase price and finish the pup out and make alot more money on it cause i ain;t got nothin in it and it's just fixin to bust loose . only had to do it twice but i'm always hopeing for more  ;D  ;D

I don't dictate anything to my young dogs ,  I let them tell me .  I take them expose them to hogs early on and watch them study them and then when I think they are old nuff I put them with a very good dog that will find hogs.  I don't call them early starters I call them dogs that want to, there are dogs that do and dogs that don't and the ones that do now they are fun to watch but it has been my experience and this tells the tale most the time and that is a lot of times they will hit a peak in there learning ability at the ages of 18 months to 30 months were they will just seem to stand still no better no worse this is the breaking point to see what you are going to have and it is this learning peak that tells me weather are not these dogs are going on to be  great dogs are not,  most the time you will know by 30 months maybe a little longer at the dogs that cannot get over this peak and they are the ones that will be just good old hog dogs never progress any more and this is probably what you see so much for sale on these boards so much
 but the ones that do get over this learning peak at this time are the ones that usually goes on to make great hog dogs and can keep learning the rest of their lives some dogs can some dogs cant and that is the difference.

With the amount of hog exposure that I give my young dogs to hogs if they show no interest I send them down the road call it culling are call it smart .  Have I made mistakes by doing this am sure I have but atlesst I got some dogs with learning curves that are just good ole hog dogs and not culls !

Sometimes I might keep a dog two years just to see others I aint got a gut feeling about I might send them on down the road at a year old you just never know. There is just a ton of different situtations.

heck ill throw my two cents in lol.....i like to let my dogs start their self i introduce them to hog ONCE OR TWICE around 6-8 months old and thats it im a firm believer that bay pens ruin more dogs than bad handlers...once they know what a hog is then its all based on each dogs maturity level once i feel in my opinion that their ready for the woods then i take them and dont turn them loose unless its to a bay the dogs are usually 10 months to year some younger some older if a dog has IT in them then by this time genetics should start kicking in and if their doing good (staying with a hog if it breaks bay or starting to hunt with the older dogs) they stay if not their culled and i dont mean passed on to someone else they dont leave my place period...now once they get started i will do a few mock hunts by turning a shoat in front of them wait about 20 30 or 45 minutes once again depending on their experience and maturity level usually by this time their around 1 1/2 yrs old if their not able to strike their own hog and finish it out(meaning a hobbled hog at the end of the hunt) by the time their two then there isnt room on my yard for them and they join the bone pile...ive tried just about every method out there and listened to people telling me to wait i dont have time to be feeding a yard full of 3 and 4 yr old "prospects" get rid of it and devote your time to the ones that are starting to get it done.....this is just my opinion and what has worked for me...i love a good debate on dogs you learn alot by listening to people competively argue  so keep'um coming boys ;D

ive had several young dogs start strong under a year old and keep gettin better and better, ive had several start strong under a year old and b burnt out by a yr and a half... just depends on the dog and level of exposure i think, i expect baying and woods exposure before a year old but dont expect a dog to be consistent or finding hogs regularly or none of that by a yr old... between a year and two years is when you oughta start seein one start to b on the right track... there are exceptions though

I also like to see a dog burning up the woods at an early age, but an old saying stays on the back of my mind "Early to start, early to quit". I more or less let a prospect tell me when they are ready to start hunting. I will give them plenty of chances and exposure to show me that they are willing to perform, all the while, keying in on the littlest signs to try and make an educated decision on whether to keep the dog around or cut my losses. I am fairly emotionless on the whole process and try to completely disregard anything other than the dog’s performance on deciding whether or not to keep moving forward with the evaluation process.

BALLANCE........ I Dont care for an early starting dog and I don't want to feed one for 2 years before he gets started good.  I want in a line of dogs is one that starts in a reasonable ammout of time.  Patients is a must when it comes to starting youg dogs and I don't like to get in a hurry.  Allot depends on the seasons summer heat can get in the way of starting a dog and so can deer season but I dont get too wound up about starting a dog at this age or that.  I want them to know the basics before a year old like leading, loading, calling in, confortable in the woods, what a hog is and respect a hog, how to go to a bark.  Most of the rest like hunting and baying should be instinct in my opinion and will develope or it won't.  I personally dont get in a hurry but also wont wait for 2 years.  After a year its time for me to really "start" a dog to put the pup on some hogs as much as humanly possible to get the best out of that dog. 

Waylon

I also want to say an early maturing animal will have a shorter productive life expectancy than a later maturing animal of any species.  Take hogs for example..... they can mature in 6 months but only life ~6 years.  Now elephants take years and years to mature but live 30+ years.  A cattle example... Longhorns and Brahmans are known for late maturation but also known for longevity.  Continintal breeds like angus ect. mature faster but dont have the longevity and will not stay productive as long as brahman cow will.  Id much rather have a dog mature at 1.5 years and stay a productive hog dog into double diget ages than have one mature at 6 months and plays out at 7-8 years old.  In the end I'm getting much more out of a dog that way.

Waylon

I sold a black and tan coonhound once she wasn't cranking good yet. She was a 15 months. Had the pleasure of hunting behind her in a comp a month ago boy did I screw up she smoked my lil female pup. Treed three to my one in two hours. I keep pups now till 18-24 months. Lessons learned and they sure run deep, they don't go away and they don't come cheap. I sold her for 450 but she looked like a million dollars that night.

I said it took that dog 3 years to start huntin... I think it had a lot to do with the fact that he was my only hog dog and never got hunted with other dogs. He was pretty much self taught. It was difficult finding hogs with just him to get him much practice but I did it. I have had other dogs since then that have learned from him and had a good head start. I'm hoping my new pups pick it up quick but I'm not going to push them anymore than I need to. The last pup I had I think I put him on too bad of a hog too early and it messed him up. He would trail a hog fine but acted like he was scared of a bay. I saw him get back 50 foot from a bay and halfway bark with his tail between his legs after he got cut by a bad one.

I've seen both work great. But I am going to repeat this. I let my pups run loose in the yard they will BARK at grasshoppers and so fourth but that don't mean there baying. People have shown pups on here bragging that they are baying no they are barking.
when you wake up one morning and they have the cattle bunched and want let them graze and you have to go get them off then that's when you know the have matured and are really bayed..
Some do it early some do it late.
Waylon you are right on the cows a Brahman cow will even hold her teeth longer than,an English breed cow.

So there is a Fine line between baying and barking I assume?  Say I have  3mth old cur pups 100% focused on a hog and barking every breath on a 80# hog thru a fence and bark a couple times and catch it when there in the pen with it together that is in comparison to barking at grasshoppers? Not trying to argue but I have to disagree, bunchin cows and bayin are not actually the same thing JMO

different breeds start at different ages...it seems to me the bigger the dog the slower it starts, A great Dane is a late bloomer, usually about 3 years and then it is crippled up and lifespan about 7 years.

If we have 2 three month old pups and they are almost identical to each other and we need to get rid of one because we need the room. One shows no interest in baying a hog but the other will hackle up and go to baying or barking. He squares off, spreads his legs and starts barking and that ole tail is down and just a swishing. This pup is making a stand and whether he can hold it or not is ok with me but this is a point in his favor. I am not saying this is going to be the best pup of the 2 when they are 2 years old...but we have to make a decision no so who do you thing is staying and who is going to get sold or be given away???


We have to make decisions at different times and we just have to do the best we can for that time and circumstance.


When I have pups I observe every one every chance I have so that 1. I can learn 2. when the time comes to start getting rid of some pups I'll know which I want to keep.

I do my best to analyze every pup and I know who started trailing first, who started winding first, who finds more tidbits, who circles best etc. etc.

It is the small details that when combined add up in which pup has a good chance in making a working dog.

I know most folks look for any sign as to why they should pick a certain pup.

I also believe that most folks if given a choice would want an early starting pup that turns into a very good hunting dog.

The definition of bay in this context is- "the position of having been checked or held at a distance".  Bunching cows is the same as baying cows.  There is more than a fine line between barking and baying.....its more like a wide gap than a fine line.  If the hog is in a pen and the dog is outside of the pen.... how can you know if the dog is actually baying when the hog could not even get away in the first place due to the fence?   Catching is definately not baying.

Waylon

  
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I try not to cull any dogs till at least a year old and I don't get too excited over a pup under 6 months old barking at a pig. I've seen too many of them that just never really made much. Some of the best dogs I've ever hunted with and owned didn't really do much till about a year old. Now in a perfect world and if I could just order them like I want them they would all be finished out at a year old..



So would you say your dog burnt out because you failed to "train" him properly?  :)