EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I took my little 11 mo old pup who is just getting started in the woods for a little walk today. It was on my in laws neighbors land which is bout 150ac of woods surrounded by pasture. I have killed a few hogs off this place.

Anyways she is hunting out good 200 yds or so. Then she makes a beeline to 500 yds and I hear her hammering away. Look at the Birdseye on the garmin and it shows her in the pasture. I am thinking there is no way she stopped her first hog in the middle of open pasture. And I was right. Unknown to me I guess the neighbor put some cows on his land. Get to where I can see her and she is doing a fine job of keeping 5 cows. circled up. Unfortunately I want a hog dog, not a cow dog. These are the first ones she has seen.

Was thinking bout taking her back out tomorrow for a little electro therapy. What's the best way to go about this. Walk her right to the cows and light her up? Or let her hunt them out on her own then light her up. She has chased a few deer but I have been able to call her off them easily. It took a whole lot more time and effort to get her off those cows today. I am pretty new to hog dogging and was just lookin for some experienced opinions on how to get her off cows without doing any damage to her want to get out and hunt. Thanks

Use the shock collar but be where she don't know your there bump her a little if she won't quit let her have it works for me

My buddies told me not to provoke it. If hunting and starts trashing then deal with it. Also told me not to say anything. Let the collar do talking.

 The dog has to know what the shock collar is for, work with her at home on basic stuff using the collar so she gets familar with the purpose of the collar, pretty quick she'll learn when that thing gets me its a no no. Then take her to the woods on a "hunt" but set her up for disaster, make sure there are cows in the woods your gonna run her in. Im not quiet, when I zap em I hollar "get out", pretty soon they get the point. Watch the dog closely, when it even gets a thought of getting after a cow give em a lil zap. Small steps at first and dont run the collar in full power either, fastest way to ruin a dog is with a shock collar. I dont start trash breaking till the dog kinda knows that we are after hogs, after so many hogs in the woods Ill start doing my lil "hunts" with the collar, Another thing while trash breaking when you do get on hogs, pet them up as much as possible and let them know that a hog is good.

x 2!

Put the collar off and on the dog a while before you actually start using it.  Put it on and let the dog wear it in the kennel for a day or so, take it off and repeat in a couple days.

It doesn't take a real smart dog but about one time of strapping a collar on and going straight to work with it and they will figure out if they have it on or not.

Does she know what a hog is yet?  I always like for them to know what sort of livestock they are supposed to be after before I do try to break them off of something.  While baying cows is not what you want her to do it is definately not a bad thing.  Actually I see it as a good sign.  If she locates 5 cows and bays them rather than just chaseing them, then thats positive.  In my opinion it shows allot of things, Drive, Hunt, and stock baying ability which will naturally translate into hogs.  I would not worry too much about the cattle right now.  Get her on plenty of hogs behind dogs that dont mess with cattle, then worry about breaking her off the cattle after that.  Just my 2 cents.

Waylon

Yeah I agree with you, I may not know a whole lot about starting dogs and all yet, but the guys I`ve talked to have told me to make sure they know what a hog is and have gotten on hogs several times before trying to break them off anything.

I take mine to the cow lot put a 30 foot rope lead on them and we walk threw the cows first lunge he gets burned  second lunge gets burned again we walk all the way threw the cattle then turn around and come back threw the cattle if any going for the cattle I lightem up then we walk back threw the cattle again by then the dog is on my heels as close as they can get if they even look at a cow going back thew i lightem up and now we turn around and go back threw the cattle the dog will be trying to climb up your butt begging you not to go back threw the cows and never look are glance at one going threw and that is when you know your dog is cattle broke for good this is all on high maximum shock why play with the dog with a bump here and a bump there if you gonna do it let them know there is no doubt what is coming it has never failed me  .  Been doing it this way for years and years and let me tell you my dogs will go a quater mile out of the way to get around cattle are if we are riding the roads and cattle are in the way they will dang near climb up on the wheeler with me , now if they are chasing hogs and the hogs go threw the cattle they will stay right on the hog never look at the cattle other than that they are taking the long way around .

hopefully it takes a dog a [ WHILE to figure out ] what that shock collars is all about . and i don't want my dog to figure out that it's me causing them pain and not the cattle. goats and deer . i don't want the dog acting good when in site of me and then playing games with a nother trashy dog if it figures out  i'm not around to holler get out . when you punch that button on off game YOU say NOTHING. your dog should allready know what get out meens before hitting the woods .now me everybody i've talked to profesional trainers , and tritronics reps believe in this . once a dog figures that collar and you out they like angels with it on and devils without . just what the rest the dog world does . just be careful , been as many dogs set back with e-collars as got ahead

Quote from Texashogdogs- "if we are riding the roads and cattle are in the way they will dang near climb up on the wheeler with"

Why in the world do you want a dog to do this??  Wouldnt it be better if they just by-passed the cows and continued hunting??  This is way toooooo extreme in my opinion.  To each his own I guess

Not for me it aint.  You hunt these ranches around here you better be dang dang dang sure you dog aint screwing up when you are not there,  I dont know about you but I dont have 5000 - 10,000 bucks extra to spend on somebody prize bull calf are cow and I sure dont want my name being throwed around dont let this guy hunt your place those dogs will get on your cows.

You are right to each his own.

i have never used a shock collar . i take them out in the cow pasture and let them run if they mess with the cows i take the dog leash and whip that ass and turn them loose again it dont take many times they will learn .it just takes alittle more time and effort then pushing a button

I have seen people that swear their dogs will not mess with cows you take them hunting and the whole hunt is screwed up because of it and if the land owner see it you are threw no excuses.  Number one the hunter is a liar number two he wont hunt with me again.  Also I was doing some work on a ranch out here one time years ago somebody was hunting around the area  some were we heard them a few times on wheelers and then heard dogs barking on this mans property we went to the bay expecting to see dogs baying a hog and there is two dogs mauling and killing a calf with day glow collars on and one with a cut vest  no name tags and nobody ever came to claim the dogs wonder why ?  Na man made me sick to my stomach and I am a hog hunter with dogs how you think that made me look in front of him.  I could see why land owners get so mad.  The way I see it I don't feel a bit sorry for a hunter when his dogs get on some body's live stock cows, calf's, horses , chickens it don't matter that person deserves what he gets from the land owner. A dog just crossing land that is a different story.   Its the dog hunters responsibility to make damn sure his dogs are livestock broke !  Thats why I go to the extremes to make sure it never happens to me are my Buddy's I hunt with .  

If I cant control my dogs then I don't need to be hunting with them.

The number one Cardinal sin in dog hunting is for dogs to get on Livestock .

If my dogs screw up.....worst case cenario is they will bay they cows up.  As long as I don't run a bunch of shoat/calf catchers then I'll be allright.

Waylon

and there in lays the problem . even baying cows will not be tollerated by me . i ain't cow huntin or goat huntin or deer huntin when i'm out and the dogs better damn well not be either . but i guess that falls under training a dog what is acceptable behavior in the woods

very well said , and ya  make them do a back flip and wet them selves!!

Not to take away but a smart dog will learn wats ok and whats not right? I put a shock on mine but I try and make em think it's the cow hurting em. New to doggin but learnin this is just my opinion right or wrong thanks

Thanks for the advice everyone, gave me some things to think about. The pup has been in the pen on a hog a few times and know how to get it done there. She found her own pig in the woods at 8 months old but didnt get it stopped. So she has never been on a caught hog in the woods. She has only chased a few deer, and like I said I was able to call her off, and she has had rabbits jump out right in front of her and she didnt give them a second thought. That is one reason I will halfway tolerate her going after other "game" at this point. Once she sees what she is after in the woods I will lose my tolerance for any trashing.  But I dont want her to have ANYTHING to do with livestock...at all!! Around here thats a sure fire way to lose a hunting spot. I broke her off horses and goats starting at day one that I got her since she was around them every day and wanted to chase them. Plus we hunt a lot off of horses. I did it almost like THD said with a 30ft lead. I would let her run the whole 30ft length of the lead then yank her self off the ground at the end of it and telling her "no horse".  Then progressively started shortening the length of lead she got to run. Took about a week of doing this and she got the idea. Every now and then she will look cross at a horse and I say "no horse" and she falls back in line. I am kind of thinking the same approach might work with a cow, without having to shock.

One good thing is I talked to the neighbor with the cows about using them for some training and he said he was fine with it as long as the dogs didnt do any chewing.

I have to agree with waylon.  Its shows what that dogs has.  I am pretty sure that pup hasn't seen enough to know that it is only supposed to be baying hogs.  Also i agree with Big Ben, little steps.  If you shock a dog on full power number 1 its shows your lack of knowledge in training, and number 2 you will never have anything to move up to if further trashbreaking is nessecary.  You got to set these dogs up for success or they will never figure things out.  Also i would never want my dogs to go around cattle.  Hogs like to run in groups of cattle.  Always progress with training never start at your maximum capability or you set yourself up for diaster.

If you shock a dog on full power number 1 its shows your lack of knowledge in training, and number 2 you will never have anything to move up to if further trashbreaking is nessecary.

Number 1 I dont know if you meant that as a insult are what you are thinking.  But I can tell ya one thing it sure as hell dont show lack of knowledge because once my dogs are broke off cattle in about 20 mins one time you never ever have to worry again about them were ever they go and what ever they are doing.  Number 2 if you do it right the first time you will never have to move up to do it again .  Why put a dog threw a repeated thing when you can get it over and done with in just one short lesson.

Do you think a young kid would rather try his dad after his dad gave him a good ole fashion ass whipping are if his daddy said now go to your room for the rest of the day.  I dont know about you but I know plenty of people that have kids they cannot control just because they refused to give them a good ole fashion ass whipping when they were young and now its turned around on the parents and bit them in the behind their kids are in and out of jail always in trouble in school and everything else.

A dog is like a kid .  Also it is not about if the collar is on high are low its your knowledge of how to use it and what is enuff and what is not !

Correction

A dog is like a kid .  Also it is not about if the collar is on high its your knowledge of how to use it and what is enuff and what is not !

TexasHogDog dont take anything i say as an insult, i refuse to do such.  More of my personal opinion.  All trainers will make mistakes its human nature.  With the kid analogy we can look at it two ways.  First If the parents just haul off and give an ole fashion whoopin for the child doing something wrong.  And Secondly, first the parents scold the child then progress from there to spanking.  In the first analogy and the one you gave, the child does not know what he is doing is wrong because he has never been told.  The second analogy the child was told something was wrong and punishment progressed from there.  In my opinion the first analogy is BAD parenting, with the second being my prefered method.  This all tranlates to dogs or any kinda livestock.  I believe in being a trainer and haveing a dog understand what i want from him and not to be just scared of something.   So if i am using an e-collar, 1. i scold first  2. scould with low setting correction   3.  might have to give minor correction on a dog with a switch.(carefull not to get outta control)  In this number three you can progress levels.  This method is just what i use many have their own ways of training, but this one i have better results with.  Something i know to be a fact is in livestock.  Put them in a hot wire fence, when they get a zap it scares the devil out of them.  Don't believe me just watch their reaction.  But when the powers off and they have figured it out they will be leaning all over that fence.  My reason for saying this is dogs will revert back to something if they were just scared off of it, just like cattle and horses. I don't want to have to run an e-collar on my dogs forever.  One month maybe two depending on how you hunt is all i want an extra collar hanging on my dog.  Like i said this method works for me.  I'll give you an example.  Keep in mind I said ALL trainers make MISTAKES.  Several months ago i had a pup run right up to about 200 head of cattle that were bunched tight.  This pup was kinda boogering at the cattle so i gave a scold and light correction.  The pup backed up but wanted to get in those cattle.  So i caught myself and put the shock collar down and watched that dog.  Finally he made his way through the cattle and bayed a 200# sow 15 yards on the other side of the cattle.  Thats why i want my dogs to be able to understand what i want and go through cattle to find hogs, and not be so scared they won't go near them.  This dog knew he was not supposed to bark at cattle but knew there was a hog on the other side, hence the booger barking. When his confidence built up he went and did his job.  Now that same pup i can turn him out off my truck with 250 head of momma cows running over my truck trying to get feed, and that dog not say a word or even bother looking at the cattle.

Its all good man . 

I guess I have no knowledge either.....I use a dummy collar and just let them wear it, then after they are already baying hogs, I give them the opportunity to bay cattle....as soon as they bark at a cow, I see if I can make sparks fly out of their arse! they think its caused by barking at a cow. problem solved.

Also, there is always something to move up to.....in Glock we trust.....just sayin

LOL.

I turned a loose my blue dog at the house with cows and eased close so he did not know I was around and only took twice on max and he will get as far away as he can even on a leash he would yank yOu to the far side

I apologize. I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest here. I know I am new to hog hunting, but with the little knowledge I have as far as hunting dogs go(I have a background with other forms of dog training) I know that I, or anyone that has been kind enough to help me get started hog hunting has no room for a dog wanting to disturb cattle or any other livestock. The hog population here in NE OK, while growing every day, isn't what it is in TX. So there are not as many landowners willing to open their property for hunting to strangers. Almost every land owner i have talked to in order in to get hog hunting rights has said OK, with the caveat of "dont mess with my cattle."So once again I thank everyone for their opinions as I was just wondering what it takes to get my pups to leave the cows alone.

I agree with Waylon the young dog is showing positive traits.  Work him or her on hogs and then correct the cow trashing.

Dont let them bother you Brandon. I know what you mean about landowners and cows. The problem is that most of them only have experience with dogs chasing cows. They have never seen dogs that can bunch cows like your pup did(and like every good hog dog should do). If you have already had success breaking her off of horses, then I say do what has already worked for you.

Just different ways man no big deal noting wrong with the way you do it as long as we all get the good end results then its all good.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make...  If the dog is broke off cows it would be advantageous to the hunter for the dog to continue HOG hunting and not pay attention to the cows.  Like you say, your dogs will try and load up when in proximity of cattle.  Whatever way the dog reacts they are still cattle broke so it would be better for the dog to continue hunting rather than have to move away from the cattle before the dog feels comfortable to being hog hunting again.  Has nothing to do with who has 5-10K for a "prize" bull.

Why should every good hog dog be good at herding cattle?  Is every cow dog good at finding and catching hogs?  If he aint does that make him a bad cow dog?

???

ahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahha

Am stopping right there if I dont we gonna be here for a while ahhaahahhaahahahahah.

Its all good man

 I knew what you meant Randy_P  I do it the way I do it cause I have to have know in my mind with out any doubt my dogs are not off screwing up with as many cattle as we hunt around it does not seem to effect my dogs when they are hunting and its not to often they are in front of my wheeler are around it when we are hunting anyway but if they were and cattle were infront of us they would all most likly jump single file behind the wheeler till we were clear of the cattle if not they shoot off into the woods and continue hunting , its no big effect on the dogs only if they are with me when we are around cattle which is not very often .

Im sorry I should have said MY opinion of a good hog dog is one that can bunch a herd of cows. 

  I have cow and hog dogs some are straight one way or the other and some i use on both. I take pups for straight hogs when they are 6 months old turn them in my cow patch and burn  up everyone that that wants to cow and they usually all do. I dont say anything to them just him them a few times wait a couple of weeks and do it again and only a few take more than two times

 Just get a sack of cubes and feed them with your dog in the back of the truck/wheeler/whatever. Just cube em and then take your dog out. Every gamed-up hound pup I deal with goes and feeds cows before they get turned loose.

Just thought I would throw out a little update on my pup. Today was the first  day that I was able to get her back out there. I walked her into the woods on the opposite side of the property downwind from where I knew the cows were at. She was doing real good making 200yd loops then checking back in, all the while I am walking toward the cows. Finally got to the north side of the property where the cows are at.  I able to see them before she winded them, or saw them, but sure enough once she does, she beelines it to the cows. Thankfully I was in a position to see it all. She gets about two barks in on a cow and I nick her, about 1/2 power. She looked up like "what the heck" and goes back to barking. So I nick her again and get the same what the heck reaction. Once again she goes back to barking so I hit the "constant" button for a few seconds and she comes running back to me. I never said a word to her while hitting the button. So I stand at the edge of the woods looking at about 30 cows for a while to see if she wants to go back out, but she never does. Headed back into the woods, and she hung close for a few minutes, then she was back to making her loops. After that I came across some fresh small tracks and she was gone for about 20 minutes trying to work something out at 2-400yds, but never did. So I am thinking shocking her didnt have too much of a negative effect. Gonna try to get her back out in the next couple of days to set her up again and see if it made an impression. Hopefully she is a quick learner, but more hopefully I hope I can get her on a pig.

That is good to hear, I have found with cur types positive re-efforcement is the best way. These dogs are not livestock(stupid), they live to hunt and please. She is just running on instinct, very good thing, its our job to guide that to our liking. Some of the dogs I have, I can look at sideways and they know they f@$%&d up, some take a good bit more dicouragemment. Do what works for you some long as your able to show her the positive outlet for her instinct .

you have to establish the dog hunting first. i have always found the best way to train a puppy coming up is to have it around older dogs that will not pay any attention to a cow. you dont want to go shocking the dog when its hunting because it doesnt get on the animal who want it to or youll take the hunt out of the dog. game dogs and working dogs are not programmed to go for just hogs or deer or cattle etc.  they are programmed to want to go on any kind of livestock or wildlife.  if you catch enough hogs with the dog and discipline it when caught in action only on everything else it will sooner of later not want to go for anything but hog.  one thing you can do to really mess up this is run two or more puppies together. if one goes than the others will go with it and when theres more than one puppy baying something they get competitive and never pay attention to anything else going on. if a grown dog runs right past the cows while the puppy is showing interest the puppy will already have a doubt and usally a little holloring a few time in that case and your good. but when another dog erases that little doubt it sometimes takes a lot of work to break the dog from that animal.

good post jpigg BUT it ain't that much work if you have access to cattle .i used to just let my pups run the farm and bay all and every thing they wanted . except chickens , now when the cows STARTED PAYING ATTENTION to the dogs and moving away from them it was time to put up the more aggresive ones and introduce them to pigs . a couple weeks of pig time and back to the pasture for some cow breaking . usually 3 or 4 days of no cow yes pig was all it took . one point is to test the dogs you've broke by letting them  loose with a cow dog and see if the pup can be pulled into baying with a trashy dog , it happens more than not in young dogs

yes sir you are absolutly right about that. unfortantly, i dont get to spend the time with my dogs the way i used to. hell, i have worked so much this last year that dogs i had that would get nervous last season when they got around cows had to be cattle broke again this year. it really sucks but there getting back in shape now and i can promise i wont let it happen again. 

i know the feeling i gotta start all over again . i had to leave the farm and move to take care of my 80 year old mom and her place , lost access to free ranging the dogs but got my neighbors cattle at the back fence to break younguns with . but it wont be the same i loved letting the pups start baying on their own  [ just instinct ] and then go from there . now i'm gonna have to work at it .