EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

A couple weeks ago I bought 2 pups out of some cur dogs that are highly talked about. They are supposed to be 4.5 mo old. They won't bay a hog even with another dog baying, and when the pig was caught and squeeling they ran and hid. Do they need some time to grow up, or should I cull them? All of the other dogs I have started were baying hard by this point. I have tried to get them to bay anything, cows, horses, pigs, etc, and they won't give them a second look. I don't want to wait until they are 2 yr old to decide if they are going to work or not.

How long have you had them? Takes a few weeks to get adjusted sometimes. They have to trust you, learn about you like you learn about them? They need to gain their confidence. Just once in the pen? If only once then they probably just need some time. I would try working them once or twice a week for at least a month before I culled, but that's just me.

Man that is a tough question...sometimes.  When I first started, I would give a dog a year or so....man did I waste a lot of time.  If a pup doesnt show intrest between 6-9 months, I dont keep them.  Doesn't necessarily mean they are a cull, I just have expectations that a pup must meet be certain times periods.  It sounds like you've given them several opportunities.  If they run and hide like you say, that would be enough for me.  4.5 months is young, but I've seen a lot of pups that age that show a lot of interest, most bay real well from outside a pen.

A dog that runs and hides is a cull to me. I am not saying give up but if I paid for them I would want my money back. If they were free a may give them a couple months. As puppies I stomp my foot and any dog that backs up is a cull. I want the pups that come forward or at least stand their ground. A dog that runs can be clipped and make someone a great pet but I ain't feeding it.

All depends on the dog and how much time you want to spend with the dog. My buddy raised 2 curs that a man culled because they did several things mentioned above he just took them for 2 years with his other dogs and one day they turned on and became true long range dogs and i have yet to find a cur dog that was even in the same class with the gyp. so its all in your opinion

4.5 months is still young, I would give them some time. The running and hiding thing would concern me more than not baying. But I look for dogs with that natural desire to bay anything. Sometimes its the pen. I had a plott that would knock the back out of his dog house to get away from a coon in a cage, but eat a hog or bear up in the woods. Dogs are individuals "not humans" but individual dogs and are all different.
    Im sure there have been great dogs turn on at 2-3 yrs old, but ain't no way im feeding one that long to find out.
its a judgement call that only you can make.

Really don't have any good advice to offer other than to say that I have 2 grown, striking, hard hunting, hog hating gyps that will cower and run away from penned hogs and 1 who is totally indifferent to them, preferring to watch my eyes instead. Cut a small hog loose in front of them and see what happens

x2 i have an old plott male same way trap pen anything but wild in the woods wont do anything will go straight to trailer to load up guess he knows its caught lol

There culles !! All my jagd At 5weeks old if they don't catch a 10 lb to 15lb squeeling pig there culled ! They are breed to hunt an drive so jagds start really early ! Currs take time!

Real easy to find hogs at a baypen....

Ha where do u start your pups if your number 2y curr are so good then why it take a 1 1/2year to start them. Ya its real hard to find a baypen when u don't own one  !!

Dang! 5 weeks? I thought 8 weeks was early. How much does a jag weigh at 5 weeks? I wouldn't think more than a few pounds, maybe 5 at most. Am I way off? Anyhow, that is some drive there!

4.5 month is still young and considering you just got them a few weeks it sounds like they need some time. I wouldn't cull them especially if their parents are proven!

I have a 5 month old gyp I have started her on drags, I like the way she uses her nose and covers ground when she hits the scent.
I put her on a tied up hog and she wasn't scared she just didn't know what to do with it.  That same afternoon I was walking her around in camp and she found a land tortoise she bayed the number 2 out of it. I cut her off of it after a good 10 minutes.
I also have a cur dog that when I got him Michele gave me a shoat with him and he was baying at 3 month old. 

2to4 lbs once there eyes open they know what they were born to do!

I start mine in the real woods on real hogs. I believe you practice how you play, so I don't put my dogs in baypens cuz I don't want baypen dogs. I thought it was a bit presumptuous of a guy who runs mini terriers in a play pen to tell a man who is striving for woods dogs that his are culls.

Get a coon and put it in a roll cage... Pups a lot of times will be earlier on a coon.. Muddog, no need to beat your chest, you're not reinventing the wheel ya know

alright fellas lets not blow this up. we all hunt differently, shoot i get a small pig and let it loose in front of the pups when they are 5 to 6 months and the ones that chase it are the ones i keep, enough said. yea you can baypen pups but i wouldnt do that to a older dog.

Your right I apologize for any perceived rudeness, but it strikes a nerve to hear anyone claim to straight up tell someone to cull a dog that they don't know jack about. Moreso when some take culling seriously in the d fashioned sence, it ain't like your telling them to nuter the dog and sell it on the dog trade as a started dog.  rolleyes

yea your right but it is what it is. The good man asked for advice so we all give it differently, it depends on how he wants to take it. if it was me i wouldnt cull, thats a last ditch effort. they are the right age to start but to much work will burn them and then they are worthless. 2 weeks is long enough in my eyes so he just has to find what makes them tick, somethin to get that lightswitch in their noggin to flip.

Not all dogs start the same and not all dogs train the same. I would find out how the owner of the bloodlines trains his dogs and at what age he expects the dogs to turn on. There are just some lines that start sooner than others. Terriers on a whole start at a much younger age than other breeds so comparing the progression of pups from different breeds is like comparing apples to oranges they just ain't the same.

I just read all of the responses. First off thanks for yall's input so far. Second, please don't turn this into a pissing match or a vs thread.

Doggie, what you said makes great sense. I haven't started that many pups, so I don't have a lot of experience to draw on. The guy said that these dogs should start early but mature late, I'm not sure what that means exactly. The sire he said didn't reach his full potential until 2 yr but was working well before then. I think I'll give them a while to settle in some more and maybe mature mentaly. They are supposed to be not only from proven parents but from proven lines. I hope they come on and prove themselves.

had one that did the same thing , patients is the key ! 

x2...seems to me that the smaller the breed the sooner they start if they are going to start...and like doggie is saying different breeds and even different strains within a breed start at different ages...same with different pups within a litter especially if they are not line bred...I like pups that show me something along the way...a line of progression. if I don't see it I just might not keep the pup...I am always looking for breeding improvement...I do not keep many dogs anymore but the ones I keep must be worthy of hunting and breeding...sometimes I keep a good hunting dog but it is not worthy of breeding...and this dog more than likely will be replaced when a replacement steps up...

but these pups are freebies and you can hang on to them a while and see what they do...I like the pen to jump start all pups and even to teach an older dog to gain confidence in shutting down a hog...at least the pen can show me what type of bay dog I have...But the bay pen to me should be used sparingly yet it is an important tool...

you really need to find out at what age that strain of dogs start baying... and this should help you make the decision...

The pups being talked about are out of our Bear and a female that is Ben Jordan blood on both sides but bred by C.W. Brown of Ok. I have nothing to base a comparison on because I don't expect a four month old pup to be anything other than a pup. I may release hogs dragging a stick for them to trail at 7 or 8 months or wait till they are 10 or 11 months old and start them with the old dogs. These dogs produce some very good dogs but they also produce culls. The only reason my dogs and Ben's dogs are talked about is, you never get to see the sorry ones. We cull through them and only keep the very best. I found out a long time ago that average is not very good. You may have two culls, who knows, only time will tell.

Catch a coon in a live trap if they got it. It should show. I had a bad wild one I got started that way.

levi, give em time or give em to me!!  ;D

my cricket gyp wouldnt look at a pig until around 6 months.. now at a year old she is finding a few on her own and a heck of a help dog... ;)

Thanks for the comment bigo, I can't see how they could help from doing something with the dogs behind them being what they are. Like I said, I don't have much experience to draw from, and all the pups I have messed with so far have turned on pretty young. They are a ways from being ready to work, and I sure don't want to blow their little minds too early, so I may just let them grow a few months and take them to the woods. I know I had one grown dog that wouldn't look at a hog of any kind in captivity, but would burn a track up in the woods. They seem to have a lot of go to them when they are loose, so that is good. It is just a new experience for me, one I will learn from whatever the outcome is. Thanks again for all the replies.

Finally a breath of fresh air and some great advice.

Speaks mountains when a man is just plain honest and not trying to give the ole...never a cull in the litter..sales pitch.
Glad to see a decent culling program explained by someone who sounds like they actually use it.

good post sir.

it always makes me nervous when a pup looks like a superstar at a young age . i've seen so many start with a bang and never get any better . i agree with comparing the pups to others of the same line at the same age .

i wouldn't worry about what a pup does , or don't do at under 10 - 12 months  . until then they aint physically or mentally able to handle sho nuff real work . all you have is possible indicators .

 its like speculating on a 2 y0 kid being a rocket scientist . the best thing to ruin a kid is expect too much too soon and push too hard .

you wouldn't take a kid that wasn't weened off a bottle yet and put him straight in the 3rd grade .

http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=46856.msg332021#msg332021

If a jagd is so much better than a cur, then why would you want to water them down by breeding to a slow maturing cur/hound??   ???

i had  a jagd cross with plott and there was nothing slow about him

Those pups were born on my place I had a liter mate brother and sister that would bay there butts off when they were 3 months old I have viedo of both and I think you got a little gyp with some white on her face she was running loose in weatherford and baying cows through the fence right before she came home so I know they will work just need more time with you but I do like the stomp method of culling though lol