EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

    I would consider myself to be an "average" American...   and how I view our government might also therefore be considered an "average" perspective...

I've had this "gnawing" feeling in the back of my mind for too long.... I feel that we can all agree that our own government is not afraid to lie to us.

.... yet we are a supposed Democracy?

What is a Democracy based on lies(or equally disqualifying ommissions)?     

Well it's DAMN sure not Democracy...


The Greeks invented Democracy, rule by the people through public debate.... everything spilled out on the table for ALL TO SEE and DEAL WITH... characterized by the lasting impression that is the ampitheatre... a stadium/half stadium-esque design, meant to allow a maximum audience to hear those locked in debate... every member of the public was allowed to step into "the ring" to challenge whomever might be waiting for them... mind you, this was the time of Aristotle, DaVinci... CAN YOU IMAGINE?   The ampitheatre was a fixture of most every settlement... as through PUBLIC DEBATE, the people, ALL members of society had a chance to be heard and make a point... allowing the PEOPLE to make a decision of what course to take, given ALL INFORMATION.

I propose, that as US citizens as of 2012, we are not being given all the information available to accurately cast a vote.

In this same "theme", our government is "feeding" us what they want us to know.... on an "as needed" basis...  in a cycle of intentional "leaks" to divert the public's scrutiny...

We are in an age of "mis-information".... spoon fed what they want us to hear to placate us into thinking that we actually have some sort of control of our country's future... WHICH WE DO NOT AT THIS POINT... thereby, allowing them to do what "they think" is right for THEM.

I see the problem, I am in thought of the solution...

 For one thing. It seems like when its time to vote, we have to figure out which Bozo is going to do the least amout of damage. We have an entire govt system of people who were elected because people percieved them to be the lesser evil.

 Its kinda like asking someone if they would rather have dog crap on their shoe, or cat crap on their shoe. Well since dog crap is less nausiating to me than cat crap, I guess I will vote for dog crap. When in reality, crap is crap no matter which rump it came from.

 I will get off of my soap box now.  :-X
 

To my knowledge the US has never been a democracy, and our forefathers were careful to note that the US is a republic, not a democracy.  I believe the proper term is that we are a "constitutional republic"

Now my knowledge of our govt and its functions is limited, its my understanding that as we elect our representatives to "represent" us, we are by default limited in our access to knowledge. We've essentially handed over our decision making to someone else.

I am like others in that I recognize a problem, but don't know the solution either.

Greed seems to be the primary issue in my opinion. We the people figured out that we can elect people that will "give" US things,be it welfare,better roads, or some pork barrel project. I'm afraid that there are so many people on the "take" these days, that future elections are all but given to the person that's willing to continue as we have, and it will be hard to elect a fiscal conservative.

I've been of the opinion for some time now, that if you receive a check/support from the govt, then you forfeit your vote. Get off welfare, get your voting rights back.... Only way I know to stop the cycle.

 Our vote as everyday Americans doeent count for squat at a presidential level. It all depends on how crooked our reps are. Say someone donates 1000000 to one of the reps to sway a vote. What does our vote count for then.
Not saying they are all like this I'm just throwing that out there.

Nice topic again Noah

The other problem in this country is that the press won't look past  the soundbite for the 5 pm news and we are being fed only the info that suits the big news sources. There is no investigative reporting anymore.

 wow noah, you keep talkin like that and folks are gonna start putting you in my conspiracy theory.
 circle c and noah here is something that i hope i am not the only one that knows it and understands it. it lays it out in english as to what needs to done when the government gets to big for the peoples britches.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

another option is to NOT vote for the lesser of 2 evils. would it ever work by not voting, no because big money will buy the votes, or falsely create them to put in office who they deem will do them justice in padding thier bank account. circle said, GREED.
centraltex, you show me 1 politician that aint corrupt and i will show i will pay your way for the presidency myself. i cant afford that, and you can not show 1 senate, or state rep that aint been bought out by big money.
wayoutwest, big brother runs the media and allows only what they want us to know and see.

i agree with all posts , but what is the solution ? .....   could we find it in the bible ? ..... no !  we can't find it because it was never lost to start with -

 " let them that don't work not eat " along with alot of other  FORGOTTEN fundamental priniples .



   the difference between our givernment / society and the one that founded this country is that back then they had gods will and fundamental principles at heart .


   

 JDT, you are right. 300 yrs ago there was god, now it is take god out of the equation. lets infringe on the majorities rights because we wont step up, or dont know to step up because it is not presented to all who may appose it. our government allows our rights to be trampled on, but we also let it happen too. there is no more united we stand, it i stand for myself and screw the next person. im not a bible thumper, but i think a lot of the answer could be found in the good book. we have allowed to many variables into our lives for modernisation and ease of living. we continue to allow our government to modify the laws to contradict others set in place when the founding fathers and mothers actually had values and lived by them values.
when does it stop? why do we as americans allow it to continue? answers, it stops when either we step up and take a stand, or we give our government so much controll over us, that this country plummets into a deep and dark hole. we allow it to continue because there are to many I's and not WE and there are not enough people who will take a stand. i am guilty of it, but cant do it by myself either, but we talk about it and dont act on it because most are affraid of the power and control we have allowed our government to have over the people. if i could get enough, i would stand shoulder to shoulder with them to help take back our rights and reinstitute actual values.

every problem has a solution...but greed gets in the way...and then we have these dumb a$$es running our country who do not have the ability to see the big picture...

The media holds much blame as well. They turn simple self defense cases into racial murder for the sake of higher ratings. Anyone in power is corrupt it seems. We need term limits for every elected position. Put all people on government pay roll on same retirement and social security program has the rest of us. Money should not dictate how one stands on an issue.
 

Where is the *like* button

You are absolutely correct.  While we are a democracy, we are not a democratic form of government.  We utilize a representative form.  Democratic forms have never succeeded in the history of any country.  They are too quick and easily subject to change.  Then whims of the majority dominate the direction of everything, which results in conflict and war.

There is a fundamental flaw in most forms of government, including a democracy.  When the general public learns to see government as their source of revenue and wealth, the decisions become based on that.  This applies across the board.  Whether you receive money from the government in the form of welfare, or subsidies, or abatements, or contracts  ...  you learn to choose who governs by what benefits your financial interests.  That leads to downfall.  So the military industrial complex and all those that benefit from it vote for their economic interests.  The welfare recipient votes for theirs.  The oil & gas companies and their beneficiaries vote for theirs.  Those receiving farm subsidies vote for theirs.  Etc. Etc.

Think about it.  Is the welfare recipient any more abusive of using their votes to benefit themselves than a professional sports team owner who demands that government tax someone, anyone, other than them, and use that tax money to subsidize their sports teams facilities?  Both see feeding at the tax trough as OK as long as it benefits them.

The point is the receiving economic benefit from the government becomes a dominant factor in who we choose to govern.  That is when democracies tend to fail.

Agreed.  Whether on the left or right or somewhere in the middle, it ultimately is driven by viewership and the resulting sale of advertising.  Not what is both sides of the issue.  In the Trayvon Martin case, who has been one of the more reasoned voices?  IMO, his mother.  She thinks Zimmerman had no malice but took a path that led to a series of decisions led to the "accident".  Yet most news outlets focus on one side or the other and try to paint their agenda with it.  Hoping that this will excite and enthuse their views to tune in for more.




Actually, term limits alone will not accomplish that.  Term limits tend to transfer power to political parties.  Candidates "que up" and proceed in lock step up the ladder from office to office.  You see that now even in political levels without term limits.  It is more critical when there are term limits.

If you have term limits, you need to combine that with a prohibition of political parties.  Good luck on getting that accomplished politically or legally  (probably unconstitutional).

 very true RL, and that is why our country is failing and will fail in the short and near future. the only payment i get from the government is my VA disability ck, which aint given to me. I earned it by litteraly braking my back for the military. I dont vote for who can help just me, it would be nice to see not a singal candidate to get elected and those in office now to get thrown out on their butts and have to live on no more than a $75,000 a yr income. even with 75k, that is still over half the average middle class income.
there are so many thing that nead to change, but not enough people to take a stand. if we see that our current form of government (democratic form) has been proven in past history to never flurish, then why do we allow it to continue?

I think there is a better and simpler voting structure that would make our "representatives" at all levels more accountable to the public and less beholden to the two political parties.

If all voting for various offices listed the candidates AND "None of the Above".  In other words, we no longer had only the option of choosing one or the other candidate, which tends to cause people to vote for "the lesser of two evils", and instead could vote for neither.  If "None of the Above" had a plurality, then a new election should be held and the other candidates should be disqualified from it.

I think it would be constitutional.  But I think it would take a ballot initiative to have the public vote for this structure  ...  as I doubt any politician is going to vote to implement it.  :)

to fix social security and retirement every politician/representative needs to be on the same benefits/retirement plans as the average american will receive...

no lobbying of any type that has to do with money...this includes, paid vacations, hunting trips, paid flights etc. etc...


the media:

and sensasionalism for ratings get in the way of real facts...I see it even in the weather reports...the local channels will cut in to keep us posted on the bad weather coming and I used to keep watching for updates...this way I could have something else to communicate in our safety meetings...didn't take long to find out that most of the time they were wrong...so I started looking at the satellite and the movement... based on that I could predict if they were telling the truth...most of the time I was right and they were not...but I finally concluded that they do this to keep the public tuned in...becauseit is all about ratings and money...



before I retired from one of the biggest chemical companies in the world I saw where the company always wanted us to vote for certain candidates that benefited the company...not the employees directly but the company...

many years ago when every major company polluted our environment the major companies would lobby hard against the candidates that were for regulating and controlling pollution....the big companies would say that they could self regulate way better than the government could....but no progress was made controlling the pollution until the regulations were set in place...

just about everything in politics is motivated by greed. this includes voting on a bill for re-election purposes and not for doing what is right...or driven by financial gain...

as far as our representatives having shorter terms is really not a good thing when we have the right ones in office...by time these guys learn enough to really do our country some good it is time for them to move on...however...when we have one in office that is not a benefit to our country then it would be the right thing to do and that is to get them out asap...

but to me the right leadership needs to be very smart...and they need to have a grasp of the big picture...and they must do what is right for the environment, economy, and the standard of living for our country in general...

and just like anything else in nature...it is all about balance...a system can deviate a little to one side and then to the other side but then it should come back to the average...

a good representative needs to know quite a bit about the economy and must know what drives the stock market...because it is all about greed...but most of all must understand "HUMAN NATURE"...

what really amazes me is that we have the ability to fix most of the issues we can possibly be faced with...yet we are not much above the average insect or mammal...our technology allows us to cheat mother nature...but mother nature will take back and bring us back to the balance...we don't take the time to see how mother nature deals with the small insects and mammals...because we don't have time for the little things... but one day we will take notice because it will be happening to us...

our technology should be to improve our quality of life and not to expand our greed...because greed will be our downfall...directly or indirectly...how it happens doesn't really matter because the end result will be the same...

I am definitely not a politician...but I was asked to get on the planning and commissioning committee for the city I live in...we were trying to make a few positve changes so I joined up...long story short I wanted out after one term... but somehow I have been there the longest of all the members...I even wrote a letter of resignation in my third term and that didn't work out because I gave in... so still on board...but I have seen several members come and go, they joined up for their personal agendas...monetary gains...

what I see is a bunch of crap even in city politics...we make changes and sometimes we run into something complicated and then we vote to put it in the back burner...then it usually gets forgotton...I see that some agendas are truly not feasible... but the majority are doable, but I see that the majority of the members would rather move on to something else...

But as a committee member I try to do what is right for the city in general. I try to help business by making it simpler for potential business owners to get a permit etc. etc... I also try to take into consideration the lower class as well as the well to do...
but what I see a lot of... is a lot of talk and very little action...

Well it seems to me that our government has become so corrupt that I can see no real way to 'fix' it. It's like a great big beaver dam that you don't want on your creek anymore....you can pull limbs out of it until you're blue in the face, tie them to the tractor and snatch 'em out all day long, but to no avail......because....they are so intertwined and woven together,...and mind you, all this took place over a long period of time and it was done one limb at a time,...that there is only one way to get rid of it.....and anyone that's dealt with it knows what I mean. The 'fix' has been posted for us all to view anytime we see fit....and here it is:......" — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

I wonder if 'We the people'.....are willing.

There is no way to fix it .  Its to big , its to corrupt.   The only way to fix it is dismantle it and start from the floor up.  But how you gonna go about it .  Its pretty bad when it does not really matter no more who the President is !  Thats when you know something has to happen and sooner than later!  You got the top mans Sec of Energy saying they don't care how high gas prices gets he said it on the tape.  Then you got Jessie Jackson praising Obama for being the Food Stamp President saying this is what creates jobs and helps keeps people employed and then saying it helps the truckers of America.  Now people how much more do you need to see !

 jimmy, the way to go about it is like i have posted several times and firemedic reposted it in his post. abolish the government and reinstitute a new government. there are only 2 ways to abolish it. 1. by the vote/petition of the american people, askin for the ENTIRE government to get the heck out of the whitehouse, congress, senate, and judiciary seat and everywhere in between. 2. a basic coo or revolt by the american people and remove the government by force with arms if need be. the only problem with both these solutions is, 1. you never get enough people to for either method to work, and if you got enough and the government gave us the finger when ask to step down, then having to forcefully remove them, we would have to deal with martial law and the civilian block ops units that were put in place to protect the cooruption by our government. it would litterally mean another civil war/unrest. there would a lot of lawlessness, rioting and looting when the judicial offices were abolished before we could institute a new 1, there would be countries trying to invade, seeing that america is at war with their selves and at our weakness, then we would be fighting a war on multiple fronts. it would work if people would stand up for the way of life set forth 300 years ago. our constitution aint worth as much as a roll of toilet paper. there have been to many mods to it, with some mods basicly contradicting the laws set in place many moons before.

Well I guess it is damn if you do and a damn if you don't.   I know one thing this country cannot stay on the path it is on now.  Something is gonna happen sooner are later and thats when I look for all hell to break loose.  This country is walking on egg shells right now and this so called leader we got is going to bring it to its knee's if he gets back in there all I can say is everybody better pull up there jock straps cause before he is in there another two years this country is gonna explode !

Its one thing for people not to have no money left after working 70 hrs a week and cannot afford the luxurys of life and the Gov robbing everybody and this country of great jobs all because of the stupid ass restrictions they put on companys and the taxes but let me tell you when people start to go hungry that is another story and all hell is fixin to start when enuff people get like this !  Thats when Am gonna put my combat boots on and go the way of the American people and it will be to death do we part !

I am 51 yrs old what I got another 20 yrs hell the way I figure it what have I got to loose.  I might as well go down swinging if it all comes to this fighting for what I believe in . I will protect my family,  friends , my dogs and my proptery till death do we part and I might not be the man I once was but Am as good onces as I ever was!  My eyes are perfect, am still strong as hell and I can pull a trigger just like the next man can.

Hoo-rah!!! 


And HERE is where the rubber meets the road.

One must have a plan "B" before tossing plan "A" out...   the "tossing out" is the easy part....  ;) 

A better, more logical system must be agreed upon, and ONLY THEN, will an uprising have any substantial supporters.... but by that point... the opposition(leeches) will have accepted the inevitability of change and adapted to make it their own...

.... if only there were a "character test" that might be clinically administered as any aptitude test would be.

 its not the best example, but look at the failed and tried revolutions through out history. if we dont try to fix it, then we have no room to b!@ch about it. there are lots of reasons to not do it, but by not trying we will never know if it will work. there solutions to the issues, but nobody want to act on them. we have to brake a few eggs to make an omlett every once in a while.
sometimes the tree of liberty must be pruned to allow for new growth. as of now, our growth has stopped and we are dying as a country.

What you are proposing would produce nothing less than anarchy.   

... once I see a clear plan to replace a broken one, I am all in... not until.

thats the problem noah. no one can come to an agreement on a plan. we are not far from anarchy if things contiue down the same track of distruction. there are so many groups that are, "all dressed up, but nowhere to go" they have no defined leadership to bring them ALL together. it will take numbers to achieve a victory, and right now the victory aint even close to a glimer in ones eye.

Charles I have to agree with Noah .

If you ask me nobody is going to step up untill the number 2 hits the fan then you will see leadership take place.  Nobody wants this kind of number 2 to happen , so nobody really comes foward but let the number 2 hit the fan and watch the leadership come out the wood work.

... would you agree that, given the choice, "our" military would side with the PEOPLE before the government if it came down to it?

... another reason  "the plan" is so important... the idea must win minds... which will win the war.

 YESSIRR !!!!!!!!           THATS THE WHOLE DEAL IN A NUTSHELL  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

noah, blood wins wars. winning the hearts and minds loose wars. look at the 10yr war in nam and this 10yr war. we are worried how we look in the lens of the camera, that we cant advance the lines and continue to kick butt.
jimmy, when the chit hits the fan, it will be to late. people have tried to step up, but it was in 1s n 2s and small groups and then they are persicuted as domestic terrorists. a war cant be fought with out more than 1 leader, but it will take a reciricating agreement between the leaders to achieve victory. again it takes numbers to also win. the 1s and 2s and small groups cant do it on their own.

as long as the nay sayers get on the wagon and say what we say...it shouldn't matter who gets the credit...credit where it is due is stolen every day including ethd's...  ;D :)

but casting the seeds at the right time and place goes a long ways...just throw a little water and fertilizer on them every now and then and watch them multiply and grow...and before you know it everyone will be saying what you been saying all along...and then change will come...read that trick in a book and it works...used it quite a bit in my work place...the guy who casts the seeds probably will not get the credit but the end result is what matters...

Very true Reuben...

Lets just hope it don't come to this.   Am a peace loving man myself.

 history WILL repeat its self. look at how many powerfull empires have fallen in the past. the youtube link some1 posted about china is correct. the government used up all its resources to advance and or sustain their empire and then it crumbles like a poorly built sandcastle.

This may sound juvenile but we do have a blueprint to follow for what is being proposed. Our forefathers did exactly what needs to happen again. If a group of men were willing to study that blue print together and make applicable changes to it to fit the modern age I believe that they could get a large number of Americans behind them. It seems as though this sight has enough like minded people from different states to potentially get something started.  As others have said before, it takes someone to take the lead, who will it be? Who knows? But I do believe that it can't be just one man, but a band of brothers with similar standards. Differing opinions are great as long as the main goals can be agreed on. I guess what I'm trying to is that I believe that with the discussions that are being held here that there seems to be a few people that want to stand up and make a difference, next step get serious and start discussing the goals of a new government, then go through the logistics of the process. Basically as a group get a plan on paper using the history of our forefathers to guide us
 

I like the way you think son....  ;) ;D

jesse, we do that over an unsecured phoneline or on the net, then the allmighty prying government will accuse all in the thought process to be terrorists and be persicuted for enforcing their rights as americans and humans.
im sure these post have/are being watched by big brother.
what you have posted is exactly what needs to be done, but the main thing is as you stated, logistics. this site and other sites out there cant get connected because of the fear the government has instilled in the majority of the american people. im not a leader, im a grunt. im not a politician, i say whats on my mind and speak from the heart, but i am also not a follower that will not question basic reasoning. when i was in the military, i got my butt reamed out weekly for not giving make busy work for my troops. i refused to find them some bs crap to make it look like we actually accomplished something. i have always bucked the system and disagreed with bs. im not a "yes man".

i agree 100% with what jesse says, but he sugar coated it, but coating with sugar or sourapple. it all comes to the same end result.

Charles, I agree that everything that we are discussing now is more than likely being monitored and in reallity th government has instituted enough crap into the law books that if they were so inclined we could all end up in prison or just disappearing.
You say that your not a leader your a grunt, not a politician, and you speak from the heart.
I myself would classify myself in a similar boat, but something that I know as fact is that this country doesn't need politians, or people that speak from there pocket book, or people that are afraid to get their hands dirty. I believe that the best leaders are the ones that are the best servants, the ones that have a standard, put there head down and push through.
I don't believe that there is a quick fix, or special drink to serve to get things back to they way they should should be to think that is just naive. I may live in a dream world but I do believe that there doesn't have to be a "new" idea but rather the original idea, and that if that was the basis then who (of the sane people) wouldn't join.
Maybe a multi state hunt should be held  ;D

 I believe that the best leaders are the ones that did not want to be a leader. They became leaders out of necessity and the urge to do what they thought was right.

I read a lot of "barking at the moon" here.  Nobody is going to replicate the American Revolution.  In part, because of geography and technology.  Back then, we were a very distant, difficult to reach, colony.  All of the logistics from the British standpoint were aligned against them.  Not the case today.

First, the world is relatively flat today.  You can get anywhere rather quickly. 

Then there is the technological advantage.  The government (military) has it.  The people don't.  It is overwhelming.

If someone acted on these "ideas"  ...  they would be overwhelmed by law enforcement from many, many government agencies.  Much less the military whose role includes protected this country from attacks from within.

History is written by the victors, who call their  role as protectors and call the losers anarchists, terrorists, extremists, etc.

As soon as anarchist was brought up big brother was tuned in. Call me paranoid but the government seems to stop mass organizations of an opposing force to come in to the light. Good or bad but to do any thing sometimes citizens have to go against the government.

or you could just vote for Ron Paul.  or support Ron Paul in the political process.  I don't understand why everyone complains, but when the solution is right there so many people ignore it, or even condemn it.  "Ron Paul is too radical."  some retard told me, that I once respected.  Actually, what it is is that people are simply brain washed.  They are condition to reject truth as abnormal. 

People say they want radical change, that they tired of the same old norm of lies, deceit, and downright EVIL.  Well, then vote for Ron Paul.

I agree...it would be a good start...