EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I have done alot of research on the Blue lacy dog.  Just bought a pup from Aaron out of Alto.  Cant wait to try her out.  But was wandering why not very many people hunt them.  It seems to me that most people on hear hunt Curs dogs. Is there any reason???  Thanks

My opinion is this, and take it for what it is...my opinion...


Sheer numbers - I would guess that more BMC, Cat, Brindle Cur, etc (Curs) end up in hunting homes because they lack the novelty that is associated with the Lacy Dog.  Combine that with the fact that there are just a whole lot more cur dogs out there than there are Lacy dogs, and I think you have your answer.

I think the Lacy dog as a breed loses some quality from novelty breeders, just like the Catahoula's have done with the color breeders.  Still plenty of good Lacy's and Cats, just have to weed through the pet breeders to find the breeders that have preserved the working lines.

You will find that there are several members here on ETHD that are hunting and working their Lacy Dogs.

IMO a lot of it has to do with the cost of a lacy dog.  When I got mine, the going rate was $300 for a pup.  I've heard recently that some breeders are getting $400/pup.  There aren't many people that are willing to pay that kind of money for a cur puppy that may or may not work out. 

I like my lacy and won't be getting rid of him anytime soon but more than anything I like the novelty of having one in my pack just because. 

Circle C and Cull Buck are both right.

The very fact that people call them Blue Lacys shows how much they've been marketed purely for their color. If you had a litter of Labs, would you advertise them as "8 Black Lab puppies" if 4 were black and 4 were yellow? No, and the Lacy is no different. The historically correct name is Lacy Dog and they come in blue, red or tri. Then there is all the advertising about a rare blue color gene. Total BS. There is no such thing as a blue gene, Lacys get their coloration from a dilution modifier that is present in all three varieties and is independent from the base color. But a bunch of people saw an opportunity to make money, they knew they would make a lot more advertising them as rare blue pets rather than a working dogs, and then they pushed up the price accordingly.

Which leads to the second issue Circle C addressed, people breeding for looks or papers rather than working ability. If you don't test working ability in the field, if you randomly breed pets, you'll lose the hunting instincts. My favorite is when people say their dogs don't work, but the dogs' parents did, so their pups will be born with all the drive necessary to do anything you want. Again, total BS. Sure, some of those pups will have it, but you are playing the genetic lottery. No veteran hog hunter is going to pay an inflated price for novelty pups that haven't been bred specifically working traits.

That's why I recommend people interested Lacys as a hog dog only buy from breeders who are working both parents. Fortunately this trend of backyard pet breeders is fairly new, it probably started around the same time the Lacy was named the State Dog of Texas in 2005, so you can still find working lines. But you need to do some extra research to get them. Like all pups, there is no guarantee they'll turn into jam up dogs, but it exponentially increases your odds.

Not to shamelessly plug the association, but this is why Monteria, Bayed.Blue and I worked with some other dedicated owners to start the National Lacy Dog Association. The site is http://www.nationallacydog.org (http://www.nationallacydog.org) and the blog is http://workinglacys.wordpress.com (http://workinglacys.wordpress.com). The point of that organization is to preserve the Lacy as a working breed. Hopefully it will make it easier for hog hunters to find the right dogs so they don't end up with duds that turn them off of Lacy Dogs.

OK, I'm getting off my soap box now. I just get a little passionate about the issue :P And bghogdogtx, congrats on that new pup, the Lows breed some great working Lacys.

Thanks wouldent have found the right one with out your help.  And i will defenity become apart of your forms to help promote working dogs.  So i can help out someone that might be in the same shoes i was in.  Thanks again for all the help. we really need to promote them as a working dog.  Seeing how thats what they were breed to do.

I don't know anything about Blue Lacy's but  agree 100% about people breeding for color or a certain look. I want a dog to do a good job whether its a hog dog, cow dog, bird dog, etc. I don't care if its purple with green spots if it will outperform anything else I have.

Look at a lot of the AKC dogs that "used" to be working dogs until they started being bred to fit a standard for the show ring. They lost the ability to do what they were originally bred for.

Lets hope our cur dogs, Lacy's, etc don't ever go that route.......

I bet you could get alot of money for the purple dog with green spots HAHAHA ;D.  But on a serious note yes we do need to preserve the working dog

 I think  the outright price of one keeps most people away. For the price you pay for a lacy pup you can get a foundation bred pup. You pay alot for the "lacy" name. I had one. He didnt work out for me. He was a VERy good looking dog and had a great handle, he didnt have the "drive". He would bay the heck out of a hog but I didnt want a help dog. I sold him for 100 less then what I paid for him 1.5 years later. They can make good dogs but I think the cost as a pup keeps people away.It is hard to pay that much for a pup with the odds stacked agenst you. I doubt I will ever have one again. edit- I will never pay 400 for one again. Just like any dog, people are gonna breed for looks etc. I think the 300-400 price tag is keeping the pups OUT of people's hands.
   

I would think one of two reasons.......Either there are not many people breeding them or in general they dont make good hunting dogs.

Yup, many of the AKC breeds are a great example. You can see from the new Border Collies that it only takes a couple generations to ruin a working dog. And there are some show quality Golden Retrievers in my agility class that can't run in a straight line nonetheless hunt all day. 

But the saddest part about the Lacys is many aren't even being bred to a physical standard. The majority of breeders aren't trying to improve or even maintain working ability or conformation. They just look for papers and breed away. The only thing that matters is if they get blue and tri pups, because that is what all the pet owners in Houston are looking for. They could care less if the dog can actually find and bay a hog in the woods. For a hog hunter to pay $400 for a pup like that is a complete waste.

Then again, I don't think it's too much to ask for a Lacy from proven working lines. It's sort of like the Dogo argument, they aren't a common breed, and the working version is even less popular, so there is the novelty factor. But just like the Dogo, don't expect them to be something they aren't. In general, they have warm noses and are short to medium range. They are also wicked smart, extremely agile and have incredible endurance. Maybe they won't find as many hogs as a hound, maybe they won't stop as many runners as a rough Cat, but they'll go all day and come out of the woods in one piece. To me, that's extremely important, but everyone has different priorities.

breeding for color is those people that bred merel to merel  and dont research the bloodline of the parents granparents ect.. my two main fountdation dogs are what is called solid  trippz is black and tan and queen is
liver and tan ,, just lately we bought a red merel female out of florida
 while yes i agree the  flashy colored dogs sale better it doesnt make the dog any better of a hunter than a solid dog
 FYI queen and annie just bred two weeks apart  ;D

but as for lacy dogs the few i have had didnt have  any bottom end and was thin skinned and would bail out when hit. but i do like the blue lacys agility in thick brush  being smaller than my catahoulas they can really zip through the thick stuff
  and and wrong tone of voice at a lacy and it will shut them down like you hurt its feelings
        these are my  view and are not the views of the ETHD
                 :D Dexter  :D

I personally havn't had any good luck with any of the few lacy's i have owned they were very timmed and both of them tired to bite my daughter. possibly just some bad apples but on the other hand every bmc and cat have ever raised have been perfect on there tempers and never been timmed toward any one therefore that is the reason i have stuck to my bmc and cats.

This thread is going to bring a tear to my eye.

I love to hear the breed discussed by folks who know that not every dog is created equal, that every breed has its goods, greats and culls.

Its an uphill battle but, as is evidenced by folks like the Lows and the pups they produce, some of us are beginning to gain some ground by breeding specifically for working quality. Hopefully as a result of strategic breeding, the future of the lacy dog will be more stable with fewer culls and earn more respect within the working community.

I personally have experienced over 50% cull rate with the Lacy dogs I have bought but by breeding very selectively (and culling heavily), the pups we have produced (including my muts) have proved less than 10% culls. Given several more generations of that kind of breeding practice, across several yards, by a number of dedicated breeders, we should be able to produce much more consistent pups moving forward.

Steve

I agree Steve, there are few folks out there breeding for working ability and maintaining the original breed standard. In time and with the selective breeding you should have some jam up dogs.  Me....... Ill stick to my big working lacys... :P   

And Ill come snag the one or two small ones that you throw, Jerry  ;D

I would have to agree with some of you.

I have seen blue lacys that were just bred for color. I will tell you I have seen a few that wouldn't
hunt a biscuit in the woods.

I have two. My male is a finished woods dog. Scared to heck because he is so gritty he catches
everything. We recently retired him because he has pulled out all his k9s from catching pigs.
My female is not a bay dog either. She will be at the bay but she will bark once or twice and put
a tooth on a pig.

But you have more of a chance of a cur bred to be gritty and more hunting ability because a lot
of lacy breeders here lately are breeding for color or for money. Not for hunting.
For example - I called a lady the other day that had one for sale and when I told her I hunted with
them she said I could not have her. She didn't want that kind of torture on her or other animals. >:(
There are still quite a few out there that strickly breed for hunting and have great dogs. But
the number is going down hill.

just an fyi - I still have a blue male pup out of my male and female and I am asking $150 for him.
He is not registered but he should be a hard hunter.


jmo
Katie

Katie, are you serious? That is what the breed was created for! If you don't like it, why on earth do you have a Lacy, nonetheless breed them? Just get yourself a Toy Poodle and leave the real dogs alone. In my opinion, if you are breeding purebred dogs, you should be dedicated to preserving their historic purpose and breeding to a standard. The Lacy standard has always included working ability. Refusing to sell a pup to a working home that would use it for it's intended purpose is ludicrous. Of course if that's her attitude, she obviously doesn't work her dogs, so no hunter should consider a pup from her anyway. I guess it goes to show why many people have been disappointed in the papered Lacys they paid good money for. Papers don't hunt hogs.

I hate to hear all that... sounds like the lacy is going down the same road the catahoulas went down. >:(

Everyone has covered so many good points on the two breeds I hunt and love, cats and lacy's. Its sad to see a great workin breed going to folks that know nothing about their reason for being created. Those folks really need to do the research on the lacy, maybe you should foward some of your literature to them TrueBlue ;). I'm proud to say that all my dogs, lacy's, cats, bd, and pit are all working dogs, and are good at it and absouloutely love what they were BRED to do. I hate to see people get burned from a good breed by getting a dog from a non-working background, all I can say is don't judge from the worst specimens. I've got no problems from either of my lacy's, my male will hunt his tail off, all day. He will find his own and is gritty as he!!, has the scars for proof, and my female is just the same will hunt, find and bay, not quite as gritty as my male but has scars herself....But both of mine came from hard working homes and breeders that strive and are proud of thier working dogs... just my 40cents ;D

ill say this the qyp pup i got from Bar-m has no fear i cant wait to  see how she takes a trail ,, now dont get me wrong  i had a  lacy that i  goofed when i sold ,, she would do everything i asked  just didint have the horse power i thought i needed i am still kicking my own butt... thats one out of 5 that was worth  .02
   Dexter
FYI i miss that dog

but ill fit me a catahoula for a  truck dog to ride shot gun

a blue lacy is a cur dog, just like blackmouth cur, catahoula leopard cur, mountain cur, all cur dogs. 

  I think Steve has a GOOD point. Breeders have not CULLED enough. Just like any dog, you have pet breeders,backyard breeders,hunting breeders,and then the line of dogs that you will never here about that are true to the line. The same applys for just about every breed of dog you can think of.

Thanks guy for all yalls help.  Looks like i need to be sure that the pup comes from a working dog.  Which it did.  Just dont understand how a color of a dog can ruin what the dog was actualy bred for.  Thanks again

Brian

Yup, I'm glad you did your research Brian. It isn't a guarantee, even a grown dog doesn't come with that, but can look at the parents and other litters and see you have a solid foundation for that dog.

The color of a dog doesn't ruin what they were bred for. But if what you're breeding for is color, and you ignore working ability, temperament and conformation, you'll get junk. It'll be blue junk, and even in the trash pile you'll find a treasure every so often, but a hog hunter will be much happier going to a breeder with proven working lines.

And you really do need to dig into what they mean when a breeder says their dog works. Anyone can say their dog hunts hogs. But they should be able to show you multiple pictures of the dog in the woods, give you a description of their hunting style, tell you how often they get out, etc. A dedicated breeders won't be insulted by the questions, they should be more than happy to  share their dog's accomplishments with you.

I would agrue that breeding for color has had a negative effect on the BMCs as well, not just catahoula and lacy dogs.  Dogs with yellow and black masks hung the moon as far as some peope are concerned and you can bet that "the look" gets priority when breeding allot of times, and ability takes a back seat.  They forgot all about the other colors they come in; brindle, black, black and tan, red ect.

Waylon 

Good point Waylon.

  I remember a couple years ago there was a discussion about red dogs. And the theory that red dogs are not popular, hence the ones that end up being bred are typically "special" dogs. That they get bred in spite of their popularity, so there is a better chance of them making a dog....   Definitely lots of different angles to look at things when color comes into play. I have often joked that a man could get rich taking yellow dogs and dying a black muzzle on them. ;D

 

HAHA that funny ;D

im kinda partial to a nice brindle or black and tan dog..... ;D

Though I am not nearly as experienced with BMC or Cats as I am with Lacys and Mutts, I made a comment a couple of weeks ago to a Cat breeder stating in essence that "I liked the fact that she had a majority solid color and B&T breeding stock instead of painted up dogs with blue eyes". When she asked why, I replied that with no basis for proving my opinion, I thought I had noticed that lines of Cat and BMC which produced a high number of off color (B&T, solid color or brindle) dogs also produced better working stock on average.

I was surprised that she agreed with me 100%. She said that when she built her yard, she purposely chose dogs from working lines that threw off color and even though she started with a lot of painted dogs, the end result is that her yard is dominated by solids and her pups are near 50/50 solid/painted.

All of that means not a hill of beans really but I thought it an interesting comparison to your comment.

Steve

I have had the same line of cats for  8 years. Had 2 that worked ( they were colored up) line bred, culled hard for three generations. The original pair are gone now and my yard is full of black dogs from that original breeding