EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I've seen this issue since I first got into hog hunting with dogs and I will admit I've been guilty of it many times.
         Young guys wanting to show a pup a hog and forming expectations based on it.

#1 I have seen LOTS of young men who have pups under three months and already wanting that pup to be baying or catching.

#2 seeing guys with a potbellied pit pup who's barely off the tit and getting rid of it because it "didn't show no interest in the piglet"

#3 seen guys with a 4-7month old pup who has barked at a hog or been on a few hunts act like a pup a few times and their cussing and kicking it (usually because they told everybody he's started)

#4 guys buying lil Ol pups and immediately taking them to a Bay pen and being mad or disappointed that they don't knock your hat in the creek.


Now obviously, I'm not saying every one of these things are terrible or stupid, and often it's a ton of fun to see a lil Ol pup getting after it on a piglet, but what I'm gettin at is we need to remember that were working with dogs. Keep it fun, keep it age appropriate and have a good time, that's really what drew us all in in the first place right?

Reason I directed this towards the seasoned hunters is I'd like the teens to see what the older guys REALLY expect out of pups. I've been at It awhile, but I don't consider myself a seasoned hunter really because I still call chance or Josh or a few others and ask for advice. But let me ask y'all, how much do you actually expect of your pups? How many of you are of the let them be pups school of thought ad how many of y'all expect your 5-6 months olds to already be out there running with the pack?

Id like to hear the answers also. Good post T-Bob

I expect a 5 or 6 month old pup to be just that, a pup. When I was hunting hard and could turn loose several good dogs, a 6 month old pup wasn't physically able to keep up. They were also mentally inmature for the rough going and hogs in the wild. Starting a pup too early causes way more problems than positive things learned. Barking behind dogs because they can't keep up is one of the most common problems. Some of the best dogs I ever saw were started at 1 1/2 years old or older. I don't wait that long, just saying it dosn't hurt. Learn to observe and read dogs and they will tell you when they are ready.

Thank you sir

I try to let my pups run loose for the first 7-8 months.  I try to get them to tree squirles, run rabbits, and I start showing them a caged coon about 6 months old.  After about 7 months, thay start going on hunts and I let them mess with caught hogs.  If the hog is small and cannot hurt the pup, I un hobble the hog in front of the pup and let them chase.  Somewhere between 8 mo to a year, I show them big sows in apen that can rough them up but not ruin them.  If they dogs learn the run game at a young age, bark at caught hogs and will bay the big sows, they are usually reay to go at 1 year.  Even at a year old, I am selective about the hogs I put them on.  Im not running a good young dog on a big boar or barr.  At 18 months old, I expect them to do most everything I want them to.  I've had a couple that could do it all at 18 months.  Dogs mess up too just like us and they all mature differently.  I think it is a REAL BAD idea to show 3 months old pups a hog.  No reason to get rid of a dog until they are 7 months for me.  They are just "baby" dogs and they need to be pups.  Pups need to tear things up and be pups.

the hardest thing about having a litter of pups is placing the pups in the right hands, people who can actually pull the potential of the pup out or know when to quit and start over. This is all saying that the parents are not just ok, not good but really good to great otherwise you still get junk pups and even in the best hands they may not be more than crap factories.

i've got an old male here that at 18 months old people wondered why i hadn't culled that dog , and at 2 1/2 years old wonder what i would take for it  lol you just have to be patient and quit trying to beat the rest the world to the end of the race . F.Y.I.  we ain't gonna run out of hogs . i give my gyps till a year or 18 months to show me what they got and if i like a male dogs personality 18 months to two years old is not out of line with me . like t-bob said you have got to have fun at this or you will never be satisfied and will wind up with nothing but heartaches and headaches . when i decided to start killin hogs i bought a few pups and it was two years before i felt confident enough in me and the dogs to hit the woods . relax and enjoy this sport .

halfbreed,
that is what I am talking about geting dogs into people who understand the dogs and give them a chance accordingly. I have seen many dogs ruined becuase they were forced to early.

Im by no means a seasoned hunter but forcing a pup to hunt dogs get bored at a young age that is the reason for taking them away from the hog just as they are really getting started T-bob you have seen me with my two 5 month old pups one of them shows potential the other one has no interest yet but his mom didn't turn on Till 1 1/2 just likd you said its about having fun and getting to watch dogs grow into a good hog dog not trying to force it into them they have minds of their own and will do what they want

 2 days after being weened, they should be out baying a 300lb boar with 6" cutters and holding till that pit still on the tit can run in and hit it like a frieght train.  ;D
let them pups, it dont hurt to show'm a pig but expecting them to do the dos' of a 2-3yo is way off basis. even after a yr old some still act like pups, just gotta push through it and hope they get out of it, but only time will tell.
good topic t-bob

i know what you meen arrow . that is why when i sell some of my pups i give a one year garrenty on them . if you are not happy at a year old i'll by them back . in other words you feed them for me for a year and you don't like them i will refund  [ the purches price ] and have them back in my hands when they are ready to start rockin  lol and i will wind up with a dog i've got nothing invested in and is ready for me or someone to make  a dog out of it  . lol i made the mistake of a young man when i was young and gave up on dogs to soon and had those same dogs put in on me in the woods later on in life in the hands of other men . live and learn  lol

What gets me is my dog is finished and he is 15-16-17- 18 months old .  BS!

A dog dont mature out till he is between 3 to 5 yrs old .

Pups are just pups man some start early some start late the key is ,   if your dog man wise enuff to know what you are looking at and have a feel for whos gonna do what when they get older .

Well I gotta say, I have a tendency to say stuff the wrong way and people end up thinking I'm a knowitall or a idiot. I'm really glad this topic has come out exactly as I wanted it to, I thank each of you for your opinions and for really laying it out there for us younger guys to see.

Hunter, your probably the reason I tried to lay it as tactfully as possible. I saw your pups yes, but I have also seen your level of knowledge and you have more than proven every time that age don't have much to do with maturity. There are plenty if younger guys like him who have more dog sence than me and that's why I tried real hard to not come across as a prick.

At least for one thread ;) :D

Man you guys don't know what this thread did for me I got a 6 month old pup I've been real down on cause the most I get out of him is some lazy barks while my gyp has them bayed up. He's a well bred well put together pup but still just a pup I guess. May take him away from the hogs for a few months. He goes in the pen on his own I don't force him so I don't think I've ruined him.

Ive seen a lot of guys also be really hard on a young dog when it doesn't do what they think it should then they get low and sweet talk the dog just so it will come to them because it thinks it is going to get stomped. Or they toss it in a pen and it tries to climb out as the boar hog trashes it then they wonder why it won't bay a hog and is scared.

To many good dogs are ruined early let a pup be a pup. Train them young but keep it fun and don't over due it because they get bored.

With age comes endurance and confidence and keep the dogs out of a the pens!

"dog loves a hog but won't range out"
(yeah because all you do is toss it in a baypen it's waiting for you to find the hog and pen for it!)

Good post T-Bob!

Nah man, if it has to do with pup development, then go ahead and speak your mind.

I don't like playpens for a host if good reasons but if you have a good explanation of why they should be used then I welcome the input.

Woops, BAY PENS not playpens, stupid autocorrect.  ;)

T-Bob, I've started a new thread already. Not going into detail but just opinion. As far as the reasons I use them? Time and control are two of the biggest.
Time - Now, this has mainly to do with the early culling process but It only takes a few minutes to run a whole litter of pups through the pen a few at a time just for simple evaluation. Do this a few times between 12 weeks and 16 weeks and make a cut. Do it again between 16 and 24 weeks and make your final cut. At 24 weeks (6months) it's of to the woods for training.  I'm not saying the dogs you cull won't make good dogs, but as much as I would like to I can't keep every pup.
Control - just what it says, a sixty foot round pen is easier to control than the open woods or an acre for that matter.
Fair enough?

I believe that there is a line of progression for all pups and they mature/progress at different rates as they develop...I believe the larger type dogs turn on later in age as compared to the faster maturing smaller dogs...

I like breeding better dogs better than I like hunting but the icing on the cake is when a ten month old pup can make a long race and be bayed when you finally get there...

But I look for natural ability in all pups...I am not looking for anything spectacular because that doesn't happen very often but I am on the look out for that star...I remember which pup does what and at what age because I want to breed early starters that have that knack to wind, trail, and locate...

breeding 4 generations of good solid hunting dogs that are line bred and inbred will produce close to 100 percent hunting dogs so why not do it...

but the bottom line is to not have expectations that are out of line with the pups maturity...

I am a fan of the bay pen for moderate use and it can be a valuable tool in giving a young dog confidence and can teach a young dog on how to stop a hog without getting himself caught or cut up...the pen is great for those that don't have too many places to hunt so it can really be helpful...but like I said earlier...too much bay pen too often or too long in it can work against what you are trying to accomplish...

just remember...if it takes 3 years to get your dog to be a good hog dog then you can expect that from it's offspring...not always but the trend is in that direction...

It is true about that young dog barking because he can't keep up but it is a great feeling when you see a 6 month old pup strike and run a track even if he loses it at a creek crossing...cause then you know what kind of pup you have and you can just about bet what he will be doing at 10 months old...and at a year he can be right up there with the good ones and at 18 months old he will be hard to beat...

We might not get this at the beginning but that is the goal...

I like...

That's cool, thank you for your input

I Agree with alot from above posts and stand apart on some of it also.

Observation by Stages.

Be patient enough to allow natural insticts to surface...but rigid enough to maintain an expectational timeframe to call a Cull a Cull and deal with it accordingly.

If you are feeding a year old pup that hasn't mastered the basics and showing some extremely promising traits that you desire to have in your pack...... What are you doing? Training?? Observing? Exposing? or watching it sit on a chain?  

Don't want or need a so called "Two year old started pup"  Feed em if you want boyz.

If they wanna..they GONNA! Go with the naturals your not having to make excuses for.

OOOOOOOO Yea.. almost forgot.....JMO  :D

I believe you said exactly what I said but in your own words...  :) 8)

Great subject T-Bob,

I show my pups a hog at 12 weeks. From outside a small round pen. I take them for a walk and come to the pen from down wind. i do this starting at 12 weeks and their mother comes along. They will get to see a pig like this 2-3 times a week untill 4-5 months of age.

I "like" for them to perk up at the smell of the pig and I "like" for them to bark a little bit. BUT IT DOES NOT MAKE ONE BIT OF DIFFERANCE TO ME WHAT THEY DO. I treat them all like they are #1 in the litter. I want them to be confident and comfortable around the hog and show some interest during this time.

I never pup a pup inside a pen with a hog of any size.

Some of the best dogs I have had never really bayed at penned hogs.

I like the pups that are barking some and looking at the top of the fence and even more I like the pups that try and dig under the fence.

In my country a pup really has got to be able to keep up with the grown dogs before I start hunting it. 9 months at the earliest.

Developing puppy's is an art. When working I never get after them for doing something I don't like, not not showing enough interest (biggest mistake most young hunters make). If the pup is unsure or a little bothered and needs some reassurance and the handler is "pissed" the pup reads that real quick and gets even more bothered by whats going on. A pup like this needs a soft hand and kind word, I let them do what ever they think they need to to feel OK with what is going on. This builds bold confident dogs and this is my only objective.

Never worry about today, worry about what the dog will be at 3 years old.

My dad gave me some very good advise many years ago.....

A mans ego is a terrible burden for his dogs to carry.

Work your pups and young dogs without emotion and with no ego, it only gets in their way.

Ned Makim has said that it takes 10 good experiences to make up for one bad one, and I agree. I do my best to put pups in a position to succeed every time I can, rewarding and focusing on the good and ignoring the bad.

Thanks,
Paul T

Most every thing that needs to be said has already been said so I'll say this even though it has already been said because I think it is very important. Every pup is not cast out of the same mold and every breed and different lines in those respective breeds mature at different rates. You can deffinetly over work a pup and burn them out just like you can burn a kid out on sports.  

This is where I figured it was gonna head eventually, "early starters vs late bloomers" that's a fun topic but nit quite what I'm referring to.

Anyone with a brain knows there's a point when you say that dog sucks, click BANG shovel. I only wanted to start a conversation about realistic expectations of young pups. Most don't have an eye for a natural, if everyone did, everyone would have naturals :D

Once again thanks to all for the input so far.

An eye for natural abilities isn't hard to detect at all.

Your basically watching a pup perform desired tasks without being urged excessively to do so.
Sorry botha.. Wasn't trying to start the early vs late topic, but I feel everything discussed above boils down to just a few details that will ultimately end with the same conclusion. 

Some folks just go about it the long and hard way.

But I do like your analogy.  "Click..bang..shovel"  A major step frequently ignored that has great results in the long run.

I dont know man I been around dogs for a long long time and a man with a real  Eye For A Dog as well as a feel is pretty rare were I come from .  Am talking about not only a eye for a dog but a man that can eye another mans dog are  take another mans cull and make him look like a super star in a few months and have the dog sence, brain and the eye to know when he seen that dog what the dog had and then take the dog and make him a dog.  Have a dog doing things others never would have dreamed that dog would do.   There is not many people that have that kinda eye for a dog .  A handfull over the years I been in the dog business.  JMO

Elements that produce a worthy stock dog are a mixture of certain variables. Granted

But none can ultimately come together without the simple principle of just plain ole natural desire and ability to get up and go to work.

That mentality I will argue can be observed and picked out by amateurs if they slow down long enough to look for it.
Most just don't. 

Thanks so much for starting this post!! As a 16 year old hunter, this is really helpful!!! Especially when getting back into it and realizing it takes 3-4 years for a dog to fully mature, I had no idea!! Thanks again!!

Real to me is a line of progression for all pups...I have expectations for that pup and that is to at least be on track or I won't be happy.  I don't have the place to keep 20 dogs so I must do the best I can when picking a pup. My vision is long term when I look at a pup. I want a dog that will hunt that is physically put together right and that I can breed at some point in time if needed...However not all dogs even the good ones should be bred because only the best should be unless we are out or low on options but this shouldn't happen... but it does...If we all try to maintain these type of standards there wouldn't be too many culls out there...

When I keep a small pup and then I don't like him at 10 months old I don't shoot him but will give him to someone that will give him 4 to 6 months to turn on because I know some dogs will turn on after a year old...this type of pup I don't sell but will give away...but it will make me happy to find out that that pup turned out right after I gave him away...

Right now I have a 1/2 redbone x 1/4 pit x 1/4 AB that I truly like but at some point he will be for sell because he will not fit with my long term goals...but re-starting fresh I could not be as selective as I wanted to be...if I still have him around 5 years from now something is not going right...

I see a lot of people get real excited when a pup barks at a pig in a pen and then get upset when they take the same pup to the woods and it just stands there  when the other dogs leave out.

I like to show pups a pig in a pen for evaluation and to show them what a pig is but from what I have wittnessed most pups will bark at a pig the first or second time that they see one. Some pups wont bark at it. Either way it doesn't matter to me because the real test is in the woods and thats where patients pays off. I like for a pup to leave with the older dogs but I don't get upset if it comes back as long as it leaves out. I also expect the pup to honor a bay. This helps them to understand what they are there for. We usually don't start taking pups to the woods until they are around 7 or 8 months old and I consider them to be pups until they are two years old. By the time they are two I expect them to leave out and find their own hog but even then I don't consider them seasoned.

As long as the pup is showing interest and some type of progression, I try to let them advance at their own pace. We have had pups to take off at 10 months and then we have had pups not shine until 18 months.

Well put mrs. Dinah.

I'm no seasoned hunter but the first pup my dad got me was a pit x cat x ridgeback mix named Hoochie. I took her on a hunt she was about 6months and showed her the pig after it was tied up, she ran with her tail between her legs. I was so made I wanted to get rid of her. Buy my pops wouldn't let me and boy am I glad I didn't. she turned out to be one jam up dog by the time she was about a 1 1/2.

One of the best topics that has been on here.  I learned a lot in my years by the mistakes I have made.  Let a pup be a pup and have patiances.
Good reading.

This is a Great topic! I do have a few questions tho. For guys takin their young pups to the woods. What do u do about trash breakin them? I just feel like u don't wanna get on them too bad if they are out there using there nose and hunting.   It's hard to explain on the damn Internet but do u get the idea I'm trying to get across?  Thx in adcance

Good post and good reading…
Everyone is different and like reading different views. My experience is to let a kid be a kid. I look for the drive in a pup to hunt anything and everything. Just like kids they lose interest real fast. I like to start showing my bay dog small pigs around 5-7 months. Then some training in wooded pens if I can. I get a pup in the woods and start trash breaking around 10 months. I don’t even start a catch dog until they are about 1. Not only because of their teeth but I don’t want a pup to get discouraged at a young age. It really takes some time with Dogos I have worked with. There are a lot of threads about dogos not wanting to catch and I’m sure a lot wont but many just need that switch to go off in their head. I have had dogos that wouldn’t want anything to do with a hog and then after awhile they figure out it’s ok to catch or maybe have to see another dog work. After that first catch its nothing but business

You know this is intrestering .  I will not hunt my young dogs with any dogs that will trash my main dogs just will not hardly do it if a young dog is there and happens to trash then my main dogs if in the area will all come and damn near jump on the wheeler with me .  This with my main dogs not trashing in turn rolls over on to the young dogs if they never know what trash is and the main dogs are only on hogs it sure does make it easy .  I hardly have any trouble anymore with this .  The main thing is do not do not run your young dog with any trashing dogs and only run them with dogs you know that are sure nuff hog dogs and trash broke and this will help you out ten times over when it comes to trashing.  If you do not have these kinds of hog dogs to run your young dogs with then you will be needing a shock system these are the best and will work in a hurry rather than whipping a dog everytime and not being able to catch him on the spot so that he knows for sure what you are doing other wise you are just going to confuse your young dog and make things much more diffucult .

This is how I use to do it before I got all my main dogs refined.  I would take my young dogs run them with the main dogs and if I knew for sure this young dog was trashing on deer then after a few times of hunting him and me knowing for sure he knows what a hog is and what he is suppose to be hunting .  Then I would set him up .  I would get a buddy and I would take this dog are a couple of young trashers and take them to a spot to were I knew there were deer and I would let my buddy walk them threw the woods with me on the other side waiting with shocking system in hand and once they started and I knew and could see them running the deer when they came out the other side into the open I would burn there asses up and at the same time I would be hollering at the top of my lungs get out get out after two are three times of this most the time I would have no more problems with these dogs .  

Again tho once I got my main dogs refinded and only on hogs with no trashing I very seldom have any problems with my young dogs any more because they never get the chance to know what trash is .

Hope this helps you out.

One other thing as far as it goes with me.  When I use a shocking system I use a shocking system .  I do not put it on one are two when I go to break one of my young dogs I put it on HIGH I want the biggest shock I can get out of it no bumping this are that not slight bumping thats all BS .  When you go to drill something into a dogs head you do it right the first time and then there is no second guessing from him he knows why he got shocked he damn sure felt the burn from the shocking system and he does not want anything to do with it any more.  If you gonna teach him teach him with real rod not a flys swatter .  Its just like a kid if you only schold him and slap his hand I can promise you he is going to try you again but if you bust his ass right the first time he is gonna have big time second third and fourth thoughts about messing up again .   Bumping aint gonna teach a real hard headed , hard bred, high prey drive  hunt oriendted dog a thing except to try it again because this is what he is bred for you the owner the trainer got to manage him and show him and direct all that burning desire in the right direction and get it instilled in him what he is hunting and hunting only once you do that you got yourself a real hog dog .

Aw I guess bumping a dog and bumping a dog might be some peoples way and it may take ten times but why put the dog threw that when it can all be taught and learned in one are two sessions !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  and done with authority !

Silverton, your Dad was a wise man. That statement " A man's ego is a terrible burden for a dog to carry" is so true. I have seen too many times where a man opened his mouth and then his dog let him down and the man then makes a fool of himself because his dog is just a dog.

I like how you put things, Real and easy for people to understand. Hopefully some with listen to you and enjoy the sport and watching the dogs progression. We all can get tied up and get impatient or expect too much. Well put and agreed.

Great post!
Pups are pups,  should show intrest, but don't expect them to be able to stay focused.   I like to show a pup a pig at 5-6 months two three times, I  a pen-- controlled setup  for just a few minutes, and get them out before they loose intrest.  Always keep them wanting more.   If this is the first time I have loaded the dogs in the truck and hauled them, if they are timmed at all I will only unload them and tie them, pet them and assure them they are ok.. You can't get a scared dog to do anything!  The pen allows me to see a pups natural baying style... I like to leave pups loose on yard as long as possible... Start roming too far, baying neighbors cows, or start leaving & hunting!   I have roping calves at the house and allow them to bay the calves, this helps them learn baying and pressure.   It also allows me to put a little handle on them,  get out, come etc.  teaching them get out, really helps on the trashing that a pup does.   By the time these pups are old enough--- mature enough to hunt I have stoped the calf baying all together.   This will let me take them threw cows with no trashing.  And if a deer or something jumps infront of them, usually a quick get out stops the race in its tracks.  The maturity of a pup decides on when I start hunting them,  if I don't feel they are mentally or physically able to keep up with older dogs for a good race they aren't ready to hunt.   Example kept two litter mates started hunting the female at 9 mo but never two days in a row, always wanted her fresh.  Didn't hunt the male until a year old.   He found a sow having pigs his first hunt, and never slowed down,  she probally had 20 hunts by a year old, and had found 5-6 by her self.   Neither pup ever trashed to my knowledge!   I always try to keep them fresh, keep them wanting more..I also try to set up easy hunts when I have a pup, dropping them in fresh sign, so they know what they are hunting for when they get out of the box.  I have dropped them 4/500 yards down wind from where the hogs were, so they had to follow there instincts, to find them, but the sent was there to keep them focused.   If they ever don't hunt, much I will lay them up for a couple weeks up to a couple of months,  I think it really increases a pups desire, when they have to stay home and don't get to go a few hunts.  They can be culled at any point, but not with a lot of thought, and knowing that I have given them plenty of opportunity to develop.  I will often sell a young dog, not beacuse they won't find or stop a hog, but they may not be the type dog I'm wanting, or maby have too many at the time, and something has to go.    The pair of dogs in the example are now 27 months old, both have found lots of hogs, but in my eyes are no where finished, they will only get better as time passes, and they mature,  they may be closer to finished than most dogs will ever be but, they will only get better, and as long as they keep improving they are not finished.  (being able to find and catch hogs with a dog doesn't mean they are finished.)   Hope I didn't stray too far off topic!!

no you were rite on topic reat . you just explained my dog raising and technique to a tee . use to be anyway,  since i've left the farm to take care of mom,  i am not able to raise pups in this manner and sure do miss it . city boys have it rough and from experiance of the last two years not being able to let the pups free range is a whole differant ball game lol . it takes alot longer and alot more patience to get the pups where they need to be when having to keep them penned up till time to work . i used to be able to let them run and bay all they wanted. i would start putting them up , only when the cows started paying attention to them .

This is a good read for me it makes me think of thing I'm doing right and wrong.  I just got some pups a few months ago and all they are young or just getting started so I use a bay pen to try to show them what they are after. Because I don't have any older dogs to show them the ropes. So it makes it kind of slow sometimes.

Ill show a 6 month old a pig under controlled situation.. usually with the hog hobbled so the pup dont get wrecked.  but if it barks at one GREAT.. If it dont, thats ok too.  i expect a one year old to run with the big dogs to an extent, but not necesarilly be finding hogs on its own everytime out, but sure better bay one in a pen of in the woods if the big dogs find one.  By two it should be huntin and findin pigs pretty regular (not necesarily finished though).

reatj81...good advice...

patience is a virtue

ha ha  patience is a  [ lost  ] virtue ] in america  lol

I'm getting in here late on this subject. There's been lots of good reading. Patience is surely important in raising good dogs, but so is willingness to do your part. Reat and I hunt together and raise the same family of dogs. He is fortunate enough that he can allow his pups to run loose for a pretty good while before having to pen them. I don't have that ability because I live too close to the highway. That forces me to take pups to the woods and sit for a couple hours a couple times a week. This is to allow them to get familiar with all the sites, sounds, and obsticles of the woods. I do this before they ever know what a hog is. Each time you go out, they will venture a little further out. Then I start them in the bay pen. When they get to the point that they run from the kennel to the baypen without visiting other dogs or running off elsewhere then I stop pen work and start taking hogs to the woods for simulated hunts. Each trip gets a little harder as long as they handle it well. By the time I start hunting them on real hunts, they think they are already hog dogs. I say all this to say that all this is alot of work and most of the people I have been around just aren't willing to do it after a day at work or get out of bed early enough before the heat sets in. An old "DOG MAN" once told me "you don't make a good dog, you simply afford him the right opportunities, but you can rruin a good dog". I have always tried to remember that. You can't expect the dog to learn anything looking through the kennel or on the end of a chain.

praise the lawd...T-dog is wiser beyond his years...this is a good way of doing it...When I was a young man that is how my brother and I trained the pups...one big advantage here is that you can actually see and learn which pup is the natural for range and independence...very valuable information in evaluating breeding potential... The cream will rise to the top...

Thats about as good as it can be said.

If y'all had a pup out of the bullchit breed then ya'll any of you would know is caught hog. Sales advertising paid for by bullchit breed incorporated. :D