EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I am interested in all things cur dog.  BMC, Brindle Cur, Catahoula and yes even the Lacy which has always struck me as a cur dog.  Cur definately not meaning mongrel in this case.  So It has always confused me when I read the internet version of the Lacy dog's history, and it's account of how Lacys originated from coyotes, greyhounds, ect.  I simply cannot bring my self to believe such nonsence.

Regardless, it is an intersting breed of dog and I've done quite a bit of pondering and researching the breed.  Like them or hate them.  Here is my take on Lacy dogs.

The Lacy Dog (some might say Blue Lacy, but they come in other colors) was a unique stock bred line of Cur dogs that originated in and was widely used for free range livestock work in the Hill Country of Texas.   The foundation dogs that the founder, Mr.  George Lacy  used, were Cur dogs that came from East Texas.  There is documentation to support this.  No one will ever convince me that the Lacy dogs did not originate from Cur dogs.  Even if you ignore the documentation that supports it, there are too many similarities for it to be a coincidence.  Unfortunately for the breed, someone or a group of someones, foolishly decided to masquerade the breed as a mix of canine breeds that would certainly contribute nothing to a stock working dog.  That supposed mix includes coyote, greyhound and other nonsense breeds.  I have no idea why that person or group of persons did that, perhaps for reasons of romanticism, sensationalism and fake uniqueness.  But it is a shame that the breed registy uses this explanation of origin.

The Lacy line of dogs was nearly lost to extinction.  Much like many other lines of Cur dogs throughout Texas have been.  Some of these other lines have survived, and some have not.  Many of them were absorbed into the more popular Cur types such as BMC and Catahoula.     After the near extintion of the Lacy line of dogs...... the subseqent "revival" was spearheaded by mostly non-working dog and/or (barely working dog) owners.    Those revival folks then developed the "Blue Lacy" breed into what we have today, which is now the Texas state dog.  They may have had success in preserving a good representation of what the Lacy dogs looked like, but in my opinion, the lack of proving the dogs in a real working environment all but ruined that line of Cur dogs from what it must have formerly been in regards to a free range stock working Cur dog.  I'd say they had poor success, at best, in that regard.  In other words, the dogs used in reforming the breed were not extensively tested for working ability like they should have been.  And the breed suffered as a working dog because of it.   There are still good working Lacy dogs out there but even those are likely not the quality once produced by the Line.  And they are few and far between.  After all it is a tough row to hoe when you have gone through what the Lacy dog has. 

Sir, you might wanna call mr. Jimmy
Brooks he might can clue you in. He's been around the lacy breed back when the lacy brothers were alive. And he's from marble falls. And it's not a coyote sir, it's a wolf is what is believed. You reading bad info wherever your gettin it, check out  Nlda

If you'd like to talk about em pm me

Let me ask you this?   What traits do you think a wolf had that could contribute (instincts wise) to the development of a stock working dog?  Wolf or Coyote it makes no difference.  I beleive neither have anything to contribute to a stock working dog.  Nor does a grey hound  or scent hound in my opinion.

           
        "If you'd like to talk about em pm me"

I'd like to keep this discussion public so others can join in.  But, I don't care if anyone likes them or dislikes them, So If I see it turn into a shooting match or argument about weather they are good or bad.  I will delete the thread.

Waylon 

Back in the old days the better dogs you had the more stock you could control and more range you could use which equaled prosperity. Good working dogs were not let out for that reason and there origin was also guarded. It was commen when asked where dogs came from or how they were bred to tell you something that there was no way you would believe it instead of telling you none of your business. I read an old interview of Ody Calhoun of Calhoun Fox Hound family and when asked how they originated, he told the interviewer that God had sent them down to earth to gaurd some tribe in Africa. I believe you could breed wolf, hound and greyhound without adding any cur stockdog blood for a hundred years and not get dogs that worked stock correctly. If it looks like a duck walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, guess what.

Quack?  :)


Thanks for posting up Big-O.  I have never thought about it from that standpoint, but it makes sence.

Waylon

Well how would you explain the prey drive? Wolf has prey drive like no other. Greyhound hints the slick thin fast body they have. And scent hound, I ll show you my male and hes got a nose from hell. If you watch YouTube mr brooks talks a little bit about the originality of them. Don't see the post in our thread looks like to me your just trying to complicate things and not take the validation of others on what the dogs came from. That's just what i see.. Lacys don't look like cur to me or act like a cur, there may be some lacys with curs from crosses but I don't believe the original lacys did

And not sure how the cross is "nonsense" have you not read what some ppl cross or "thinkin" about crossing? Lol it very well could have been done

Well I dont want to take away anything from the work others have done.  That work is certainly a very valuable contribution to preserving the Lacy dog and its history.  Other lines of Texas native stock working dogs have not been so lucky in that regard.  I will use the term stock working dogs as apposed to Cur dogs becuase we are in agreement that Lacy dogs are the former, but not in agreement that they are the latter.  They are a unique part of Texas history and a treasure of our state that needs to be preserved and the only thing I desire to bring of this is promote discussion that might shed some new ideas on the subjust and further our understanding of the dogs.

Does the NLDA register Lacy dogs and if so are they the only registry? Or is there another?  When was the NLDA formed?   I am thinking relatively recently If I am not mistaken.  I looked on the NLDA web site but could not find this info.

Waylon

How did they get their prey drive? You can call it prey drive if you wish or it could be referee to as working desire.

Strong working desire, Thin sleek fast body and a nose like you've never seen?

Exhibit A
(http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac192/t-bobparker/C07C865F-A0AE-4157-876F-AB4BB9492604-4832-00000D01A314D5AB.jpg)

Exhibit B
(http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac192/t-bobparker/A130B449-9F2A-4B0B-AB85-5657C634D406-7257-000013CA88877238.jpg)

Exhibit C
(http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac192/t-bobparker/0d7d40a0.jpg)

Exhibit D
(http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac192/t-bobparker/f8992d77.jpg)


These are all CUR dogs and these four are prime examples of these traits you implied are only explain by wolf, greyhound or hound.

T bob I wasn't stating other dogs don't have the desire to hunt. Work. Etc. just trying to validate the history on them and what they came from

There is Nlda, ltgda and Nlda was originated in 2008 but there's history between the two associations similar to that of akc vs ukc

And yes they have separate registers for both groups

Waylon, I know what you're getting at and I've always thought the same thing about lacy dogs. The breeders and fanciers seem to have this romanticized idea of their mysterious origins and use the different strains to explain their modern traits but they are by and large bred by either "fanciers" or hunters.

I'll forget about the fanciers for the time being and focus on the hunters

I don't mean to be rude to my fellow hunter or sound like a know it all because I assure you I ain't nothing of the sort. I see that the most successful dogs in the hog working world have their roots in the hands of stockmen. I have seen lots of "hunting" dogs and there aren't very many that can put up the numbers or the ease of success that stock bred curs can. The expiation to the rule is a few dogmen out there who REALLY know they're stuff but even most of their dogs have stock working cur lineage.

It's hard to truly explain myself but what I'm getting to is the old stories of wow factor lacy dogs were dogs who hunted stock, got em bayed then LEAD the stock out of the woods (lead from the front working like a gate----- what family of dogs does that sound like?? ;)) and instead of continuing to better the breed by ensuring they maintain their stock sence, the (hunters) who breed them today are looking for range nose and bottom. Those are the first traits a houndsman should be after, not necessarily a cur man.

Does that make sence Bigo or Waylon? I may not be able to writ out what's in my head but I guess it's best sums up by saying lots of folks breeding dogs have a pure pleasure hunting mindset and want more range, nose, and maybe bottom and even if a dog don't produce hogs like a smarter dog could they will put the dog on a pedestal because they haven't seen the style of
Cur your talking bout. Hell I know for a fact I was after the wrong traits for a good while.

Yeah I know lacy man, I didn't word it to you very well but I got your drift and I was just showing slick bodies and saying they have all the necessary traits to be full cousins lacy dogs pretty much.

Tbob the main thing i see wrong with your conclusions is that you cant have the best of both worlds. Theres absolutely no reason you cant have a dog that handles hogs like a stock dog and still have the nose bottom and range. That may not be what your saying but it sure sounds like it.

Since we re on the subject can y'all tell me what makes up the makeup of a yeller dog?

Back in the days of open range you had to have range, nose and bottom. Before you could pen them you had to find them then drive them long distances. The dogs that were sure-nuff find dogs were held in high reguard then as now. Some people think that a dog that will run around and bark at a cow is a cow dog. That may work in the smaller improved pastures of today on todays cattle but most I've seen these days would have been shot if used in the big woods. I only hunt hogs these days but I never want to loose the stock sense in my dogs because I think that is one thing that sets them apart.

10-4 on that

I take it that t-bob is saying that some people may loose focuse on the stock working ability, and focus only on things like range, bottom and hunting ability.  Either that or they have yet to become aware of what stock working ability brings to the table.


Lacy man....your saying there is disagreement between the two lacy organizations?

            .....The "on the books" Cur dog origin is full of nonsence myth and legend just like the Lacy dog.  But in my opinion it originated from working/stock dogs that the settlers and colonist brought over with them from the home lands of Europe.  
-The collie type dogs across the board from all of europe.  
-What is now known as the spanish alano  from spain, a herding dog I beleive had influence in the areas where the spanish settled (IE Texas, and Florida.)  
-The beacueron, a french herding dog which i think most likely had the biggest inflience in Cur dog development in french settled Louisiana, and is likely the contributor of the Merle or leopard color in Catahoulas.  
-There is the ever present hound as well but not the type of scent hound the Europe nobility had and used for giving chase to animals.  More of a general common man hunting dog that was hunted with a style that put meat on the table.  Something more allong the lines of what Plotts developed from.

This is just my opinion based research and knowledge of those people who settled the areas where cur dogs originated, what dogs existed when they came over on boats, and which ones out of those dogs, would have been usefull enough for herding and hunting to justify bringing them over on the long trip by boat.


Waylon

 .....have you read the article by Hazel Oatman Bowen that was originally in the Cattleman Magazine in 1942?  I had previously read what I thought was the whole article (I somehow dug it up searching the web) but, after browsing the NLDA web site I discovered they had the whole article.  I just finished reading it and it changes a few things for me because there was more info that I was not aware of.  To start is the part where it mentions when "George Lacy first introduced that type of dog (the Lacy type) to the area from East Texas"  "It was some 45 years ago".  The article was writen in 1942 that puts these events starting pre 1900's.  Later than I originally was thinking and A time in which the Cur dog may well have still been in a development stage in which it was not yet a type that bred true.  This changes my train of thought a little bit.  It moves me to think that maybe the Lacy dog was not nececarily developed directly from traditional cur dogs as much as it developed at the same time, for the same purpose, and from the same root stock of dogs.  Not to mention using the same style of work.  No matter how you look at it.  It is esentially a Cur dog, Like the BMC and the Catahoula.  Further explanation from the 1942 Bowen article mentions specific dogs used by They Lacy Bros. to develpe thier line of dogs.  One "was a yellow ring neck dog from east Texas that was simply a good type of stock dog"  They also mention the dogs ears stood up when allert.  That points to some collie influence as does the ring neck.  Although they do not call it a collie.  And Im assuming they would have specified if it was a collie.  That assumption based on the fact that they do specify the breeds of another crossbred dog mentioned that was also one of the foundation Lacy dogs.  A yellow ring neck dog from East Texas that is simply a good type of stock dog certainly says Cur dog to me.  The other dog was reported to be a collie/hound cross and was blue in color.  It goes on to say that "a majority of the hog dogs in the Lano section have Lacy blood in them, and are direct decendants of this original cross of the blue and yellow dogs".  The rest of the article mentions other dog from other men used for free range hog work in the same area at the time.  They mention collies, shepards, curs, and even a hound or bull dog or two but mention of wolves and no greyhounds.  I am not aware any original articles that pre-date this one that mention wolves or greyhounds?  I hold this one as being the most historically accurate being that (as far as I know) it is the earliest, and it was written at the end of the free range hog era and holds accounts of those that participated in free range hog work.

I've got a hunch that greyhounds did not even exist in Texas at that time.  I'd have to dig up the facts to know for sure.  More on that later.

Waylon

have yall ever seen videos of how yotes or wolves work in packs to bring down large prey?  I gurentee they could be taught to herd if they were not focused on eating.  I had a half kelpie half yote that was a hell of a working dog on sheep and goats.  Two they are smart smart like no other canine how else would they have been able to survive all of the hunting pressure.  Both of these play into the lacys.  I have never seen dogs think like a lacy or yote does and not saying I haven't seen other smart dogs and know they are out there but to see them work out a problem is not something that just any dog will do.  I had a sandy colored lacy for a while that looked a lot like a yote and always thought it was a throw back to the yote or wolf in them.  If it was wolf is was a red wolf that are a lot smaller that most wolves we think about not much bigger than a yote.  A lacy is fast bringing in the grey hound and again the dogs back then are not what they are todays dogs are some bigger.  I have read sever different things on the hound in them and talked with several people my thoughts is it is a trig dog of some sorts.  This would possably explain the tri colored dogs.  If you don't think a lacy can not still be a herding dog I would like yall to speak to a guy in eden tx named max.  Trapper chick knows him also he has some durn good cow dog lacys and uses them durn near daily as he is a day worker along with his own stock.   Do I see some cur qualities in lacys yes and wouldn't dought that there is some cur blood in them as the lacy brothers also had curs this is where they started with dogs but a lacy and a cur dog are far from alike.  Would also like to point out how some lacys are a pain and grouchy think this also comes back to the yote or wolf in them.  They work well when hunting but when not they make sure they know the pecking order.  Because growing up I had that kelpie/yote I see a lot of similarities of her and lacy dogs.
 

I can see it being grey hound in these dogs and I can also see maybe some yote are wolf in there and the other I have no ideal some herding breed I would think.  The two lacys I have kept are fast fast fast dogs like a quater horse and swift on there feet "Grey Hound" I would think and can almost see it when I look at them hard.  Also  Mine have got good noses will wind are work a track either one "Yote"  Also Grouchy as hell ill tempered sometimes again "Yote"

Also I look at these dogs some times the two bitches I have that I have kept got rid of the rest just to much for me with my on dogs here but when I look at these dogs I sometimes find myself thinking damn I can see the grey hound in that dog not only the speed but the bone structure and the head and damn I can also see the yote are wolf in them dogs yote I would say before wolf.

Seen a ton of Toms dogs the same way .  I like the littler type Lacys myself 35 to 45 lbs swift swift swift !

Just me!

I would like to add this also.  Just my own opinion but I think if some folks that are messing with these lacy dogs if they dont get the dollar signs out of their eyes and  if they dont watch out and do things the right way the way dogs are suppose to be bred , the way great lines are suppose to be made and been made for hundreds of years this breed of dog is going to go down hill like a snow ball headed for hell !  I do think there is way to many people that are not real breeders that are breeding these dogs and are doing more harm to the breed that good.  I can say this freely because I only own two of these dogs now and dont give a good hot damn about papers are a registery .  This is my own thoughts experinces from handling, watching and knowing these dogs for the while that I did !  A great breed of dog that is fixing to loose what they once had if people dont wake up the COLOR may be the only thing left of the breed.

Hummmmm

Just the way it is !

One thing about it I must agree with Waylon on this .  Am almost sure the Lacy dogs are a shell of the dogs they were when the Lacy bros owned and bred them.
If the breed was almost lost then this is another great reason why these dogs need to be gone threw and culled and only the best of the best being bred to bring back the great traits and gene pools that the Lacy bros instilled in these dogs when they started and owned the breed.  Linebreeding and Inbreeding should be done to save all of these great things the Lacy bros instilled in these dogs its the only way to save what they once had and it is the only way to get back what they once had.  Dont get me wrong on all of this yes there is some damn great lacy dogs out there great working dogs I have seen them there is  two right here but people of the breed should ban together not apart .

If there is another way to intrap and instill all of the great genes from the past other than the way I have said please let me know because it is news to me.

x2...having both is the goal.

well I read the whole thread and it is a very interesting one to me...haven't seen too much action on here lately...so thanks to Waylon for stirring the POT... >:D   ;D  :)

Well...they say that all dogs came from the wolf...including the great dane, mexican hairless, wiener dog, and the english bull dog to name a few breeds...

but finding good dogs in any cur breed or working breed for that matter is hard to find these days...I know there are families of good dogs out there but most are not for sale or are kept as top secret...these are the guys who have an eye for a good dog and know how to breed better dogs...

it seems to me that certain stock bred dogs can really work the stock but can not find a hog in the woods and won't stick to the track if the hog breaks bay...but when you have one that does both then you have a real hog dog...

nowadays... it seems to me that a lot of working dogs produce a low percentage of quality offspring so I don't mess with going out and gambling into getting the right pup...I would rather breed my own and pick what I want...so far I have culled 5 in a few years and I have 2 that might make it now...one will be good enough to breed because of his back ground...but that is if he makes it as a hunting dog...the other is here because he seems to be making a good dog but he lacks in the breeding department because he is 1/2 redbone  1/4 pit and 1/4 american bull dog...

I am not trying to get off track here...just trying to make a point...the lacy does not stand a chance in making a good stock dog or hunting dog if the dogs that get bred are not proven to be of the best quality physically, mentally, and performance wise...

The last lacy I have been around I wouldn't feed because he does not hunt like I like...and he wouldn't win in a baying contest...but baying contest is another thread...this lacy has a good baying style...he stands way bay and bays and does not apply any pressure...but if the hog breaks he is the first to dash in and hammer the back end on the hog and does all he can to stop the hog and then backs up and bays...I think that is a great baying style to catch hogs but he has to be able to find one first... and stick with the hog if it is a bad running hog...

It's funny you draw that conclusion, because that's the exact opposite of what I mean. Lol
I knew I wouldn't word it quite right and now that the whiskers wore off ;) let me try another stab at it.

Those three traits are great an necessary things to have, but so are intelligence, speed and working ability.
The thing I've noticed is there are cur dog guys who are worried about things like how far out Is that dog hunting or maybe their number 1 goal is a dog
With bottom or nose. Well you continue to select your dogs and make your breedings towards your natural prejudices and they become self fulfilling prophecies. Ends up with range that makes you proud wether or not all that traveling was necessary, end up with dogs who don't know they could bay the hog at his bed and will instead instinctually push the hog amd bottom him out. Blah blah on and on all great traits
If they are a mans only focus will become the ends.

Now I think I'm being more clear. If it still sounds goofy, I'll be in airports ALL day with nothin better to do than bash lacy dogs.  :D. Kidding kidding




Purebred, you mentioned how they can work out problems, that my friend you and I have talked about just recently and THAT IS A CUR TRAIT. There ain't no wolf in my curs and they some figuring stuff out som beeches. They won't almost never take a track the straight line way you think they should, they just skip it all together and go to the animal instead.

I'm going to have to disgree on the mentality being a cur breed.  If you have never been around one you would not understand what I mean.  I'm not talking tracks or what ever but take a hot fence my female is a master escape artist she will literally stand there at it thinking how to avoid it and get out.  Just things like that.  You would truly have to be around one to understand what I mean.  Tbob your thinking smart and yes there are some durn smart dogs out there but for a dog to really think I don't see as much.

good morning T-Bob...  :)

I reckon the bottom line is this...the dog having the ability to find a pig whether it be in its bed or heading out to the feeding/watering area...and nothing excites me more than a very smart dog that can make it look easy...I haven't seen many like that...good hunting dogs with good instincts yes I have seen plenty of those...

by the way...those are some nice looking dogs you got there...I like the looks of that first dark brindle and the red BMC gyp...

Ok I don't want to knock anybodies dogs at all or there breed. But you take two dogs that there ears stand up ( wolf and grey hound ) and only have been breeding them for 30 years lets say ... and you don't get fuzzy big standing eared throw backs . I call bullchit on that. Cause I still get fuzzy pups out of my line every  once in a,blue moon. Just saying.

That's correct and if breeders to proper breedings oh say past 100 years and rise dogs were culled possibly we woul what the lacy is today? Hmm

There is more difference in purpose and selection then there was in contributing breeds back then, IMHO. It doesnt much to set color traits, it the behavior and desire traits that rquire time and talent.

well i'll stir you boy's up a bit

  COULD IT BE , THAT ALL THESE GREAT DOG'S AND DOG MEN WERE THE BEST THERE WAS , BECAUSE THEY HAD NO COMPETITION AND NOT THAT MANY PEOPLE AND NOT THAT MANY DOGS . WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE LATE 1800'S EARLY 1900'S . just somethimg to think on there were way fewer people in texas. and most the land was big ranches with every one owening a few working dogs and they would usually gather in the spring and help each other with a couple dogs apiece  come time to drive to market . so you have five or six big ranches and each ranch most than likely only kept a few dogs at most . ya'll chew on that awhile  lol

NO! there were plenty of dogs crazy wild hogs and the lacys were the best. And there weren't no stinkin catahoulas!!!  ;D

I had a lacy given to me a few years back and that thing was as wild and skiddish as a coyote... Based on what I saw in that dog, I believe they did originate from coyotes...  ;D

That dog also meet the same fate as many coyotes

You mean he strapped a rocket to himself and missed the roadrunner and went SPLAT right into the side of a canyon?  :D

I strapped the rocket on for her, but yeah she went splat!!

I would have a better chance at making a hog dog out of the road runner

[/quote]

That's correct and if breeders to proper breedings oh say past 100 years and rise dogs were culled possibly we woul what the lacy is today? Hmm
[/quote]

Seeing the lacy line today they obviously culled the wrong ones lol the ones I have seen work could use more coyote/wolf in them. Might make th halfa$$ legimate.

For all the people saying I can see "wolf" in lacys because of their high prey drive, etc.. I can see the grey hound in them bc of the slick coat and speed etc. These are simply generalizations that you could say about any cur dog

I too am in agreement that they originated from cur dogs. The line of old stock cur dogs we hunt now routinely produce blue and smoke red dOgs! So that definitely means our dogs are coyote/ wolf/ grey hound crossed right?!? Some of our pups are "CAT" quick an light on their feet, must mean we have some mountain lion in our blood LMAO


You know those woodruff dogs have coyote in them lol


Until someone pulls blood on both, isolates genes and research individuals alleles in all parties proving wthout a doubt they originated from wolves I'll continue to call bs

Ok lets say a 100 years ago. What did they breed to get there years to lay down. Blue heeler. Man im just messing with you I could really careless what they have in them. I'm not a lacey kinda guy anyway.  ;) I do have my opinion about them but,its not what anyone wants to here.

Tony if you seen some of them shaggy dogs them Woodruff dogs have produced you think they had chow in them.lol

Key word given to you. I haven't had any issues with my 2 lacys

Sometimes but not always ppl give a dog away, because they don't want it on their yard for more than one reason. Then there a good ppl that want a good pup to go to a good huntin home. And will give it to a friend. So maybe the dog didn't make it on someone's yard and that's how your ended up with it? Maybe it should have been just a cull like I stated neither of my lacys have issues

My opinions:
35 years ago a man name Ed Miller gave me a Lacy dog told me put her with my cow dogs and try her. Said she would last longer and be in the front. I told him i would but she was so damn ugly and inbred she probably would not work out for me.I called her " RAT" for 13 years she was a cow working machine.I did not know how inbred she was as I had only seen one other lacy and he looked nothing like her.

Lacy number 2 was bought 20 yrs later pretty good all around dog.Not anything like "The Rat"  She was a smart dog and would work cows,bay pigs and find wounded game.

I became a breeder would raise about 1 litter every year or two tryed my best to send them were they had to work for a living.
Ended up selling a couple of finished tracking dogs for big money.Still have pups from one now could not register because bred a little tight.

I am the prime example of what some of yalls discussions are about.As i got older I decided to hunt more and catch less [hmmm intersting]
So I went to hunting dogs instead of stock dogs. I have always liked Plotts I even worked cows with some. But I dont think a hound will equal a stock dog in producing hogs in country that has LOTS of pigs. Nor will stock dog equal a hunting  hound at finding pigs in hard country.

I have been around hunting dogs for 53 years and the most impressive hunting dogs i can remember were my dads bird dogs. If you were hunting and thought man there should be a covey over there you can bet they would check it and have the wind on it when they did. I also remember hungry pups not eating because 13 were on point at the flys on the feed. Now that my friends is a HUNTING DOG!!

Looks like we got pretty far off track while I was at work.


Does anyone who beleives the Lacy dogs have wolf/coyote or greyhound in them wanna comment on the fact that the oldest known, and therefore most historically significant article which discusses the Lacy dogs origin says nothing about wolves, coyotes or greyhounds?

Also none of those dogs posessed the instinct to lead out, or work the front of livestock.  Which is a common trait of Lacys and stock working Cur dogs.  Where might you suggest that came from?

I know one potential source that was available at the time. ;)

Waylon

All I know is my dad grew up south of mason and had lacys as long as he could remember always said they were yote grey hound and some hound.  This is before there was the tgla etc.  Waylon I have to ask how many lacys have you owned.  Hounds typically work to the front so there you go.  Now I don't doubt that the starting breed was a cur dog but a lacy is a lot different than a cur dog to me they act like a yote more than a cur dog.

So your saying that hounds if put on a group of cows would typically lead out and take them to the Lot?

I would imagine with the right selecting yeah it could be done.  Would the be the best no probally not could you selectively breed for a 120 years and get some durn good stock hounds yeah probably so.  Back to my question how many lacys have you owned?

Yeah, she would have been so much better if I would have paid for her....  :P

My post was just a joke and she was for sure a cull, and I haven't seen many other full blood Lacey's hunt or work..

I guess I should have taken to her to the woods and left her... Hopefully her bred instincts would have taken over and she fell in with a pack of coyotes... Blue coyotes would have been pretty cool!!  ;D

And I don't know about yall but half of the lacys I have been around like nipping the back and making a hog spin especially when there is more than one dog. Now not all do this but I would say half or so that I have owned or been around.  My male works the head but my female now has tendencys to work the back end of a hog especially when there is more than one dog with her.

Lol didn't mean for it to come across like that. And no I don't think you need to buy one for it to be a good one. Hell I plan on giving a pup away to a guy that I know very well and if I thought it was going to be a cull he dang sure wouldn't get It. No one would.

Blue yotes would be cool lol

hell when it comes to origins be it dog or man there are alot of tall tales involved . but i find it hard to wrap my noggin around the fact of intintionally breeding to a wolf or coyote while all the while trying to eradicate the species off the face of the earth but who knows . sure ain't nothin to fuss and frett over thats for sure . hell when i was a child i used to tell everybody my ol collie dog was part wolf  lol

  I started hunting with some lacy people. Have seen dogs from all the large breeders in the state.  The one really good one I saw came from an old guy in the hill country. Not reg and line bred. Dog was never able to reproduce himself after a lot of trys. I will hunt any breed of dog, have yet to see any lacy dogs I would want. The two groups love to hate one another. Very few of the breeders hunt their dogs like we do. Most that I have seen are short range and rough.
  Oh, a dog that has wolf/coyote in it? I want one, how much?- Great selling point. I have no clue what is in the dog but breeding a wolf/yote into a dog seems strange.
  Talking lacy dogs is a lot like talking Ben bred dogs. People always get pissed off.

Shoot I ll be the first to say my dogs aren't perfect, and I hunt them as physically possible but hell I m not perfect either. I like mine, and they hunt well for me, and I ll breed em when see fit and if they don't work they be culled. That's how I d be with any breed Of dog i own though.

None, I've seen plenty of them working though.....How many coyotes have you tried to raise and breed?

Waylon

Again....this is not a thread about weather or not Lacy dogs make good hunting or working dogs.  It will turn into nothing but an ego match if that was the topic.  If I see the thread continue to go in that direction I will request it get deleted.  This is about the origin of the breed and what dogs went into the making of them, and the documentation to support it.

Waylon

Well I don't think there is really any documentation other than wise tells and older owners and what they had/heard of what the dog came from just like any
Other dogs. As you stated the Nlda has some back ground history in old
Newspaper articles, documentation, so on and so forth. Other than that it's a crap shoot just like the rest Of the dogs we all own.

I didn't mean to say no documentation, more like very limited. But as I stated it all comes from wise tells

 I doubt anyone can prove other then what they heard makes up the dog. The more you think about it the less it makes sense in adding yote or wolf blood.

I've always been a bit curious about this...

If memory serves me correctly, is there one of the registries that will not accept registrations for dogs that have been linebred?

With that in mind, how do you ever "start" a breed of dog and get to the point of them breeding true to type without linebreeding / inbreeding them?  In my mind, it's virtually impossible.

Waylon why I ask if you haave even owned any as I suspect you haven't you would see how some coyote could be in there by the way they act. I cull pretty hard for disobedience and the damn lacys can be some wiley suckers. There is no documentation from the lacy brothers them selves that I am aware of other than some saying them driving hogs with lacys the only documentation I have seen is from kin folk of the lacy brothers.   

The Tlgda does not allow it, one of many reasons the NLDA was formed. The Nlda allows for line breeding. Hints the association I'm in I ll be line breeding when I cross some of the dogs in my yard and my partners. Now IMO you can in a consistency with the Nlda dogs most look very similar in size weight etc etc. now when you go to other groups I ve seen lacys with ears of coon hounds i ve seen 65lbs dogs that look nothing like mine. So just depends who ya talk to and by their opinion is on the dog. There is definitely some trash out there no doubt about it. The popularity of the "state dog" has hurt the breed. IMO

I've had some leopard dogs that you can't put your hands on and just have that look in their eyes. So, does this mean they have yote/wolf blood in them? You can't pick out one trait and say they must have some yote in em because of it!

Lol dangit boar buster I ci am getting flustered.  No I don't metake one trait and go off of it alone I gues would have to own a couple lacys and have been around coyotes a lot to understand what I am trying say so will leave it at this I see lots of the same traits in yotes and lacys. I can see the grey hound in the heads and body structure of them.  Hound and cur who knows I see where both might be in  there somewhere.

I know exactly where you're coming from purebreedcolt. Just the way they tend to carry themselves. I got a border collie and smart as hell but can't solve a problem like a good Lacy can.

Skiddish behavior in a dog does not say coyote or wolf  in the breeding at all to me.  There are lots of dogs that act that way, it certainly does not mean they have coyote or wolf in thier recent back ground.  Yes all dogs originated from the wolf a LONG time ago.  But that was 1000s of years ago.  Much has happened since then and it is not the same thing as having a wolf in the recent lineage.

I once tried to raise a coyote pup and it was a total failure.  I have talked to others who have tried it with similar results.  Yes, I too once bought in hard to the sensational idea that having a coyote cross hog dog could create a super hog dog.  The coyote pup was young enough not to fear me much when I found it, other than the natural survival instinct type wearyness that even domestic dog pups have when they first see a man. So i figgured it would be easy to tame.  I figured wrong.  The pup only got wilder as it got older, dispite allot of easy handling.  It never acepted the dogs and the dogs never accepted it.   Eventually you realize all you have is a wild animal in a kennel, and have to give up the sensational idea.  Raising wild animals like wolves and coyotes, and taming them up enough to be able to sufficiently work with is hard enough, expecting them to have the instincts to become usefull hunting/working/herding dogs is just absurd.   Looking back, it was a foolish idea, but we all live and learn at some point.  Sure wolves have hunting instinct, but they hunt to survive, to eat.  They dont hunt for anyone other than them selves.  They certainly dont have refined herding instincts that are usefull to a stockman.  They will always pickout the weakest animal to take down, and they will be done hunting once they get full on meat.  None of those traits would contribute to a stock working dog and very little to a hunting dog.  At most a sucessfull hunt behind a wolf or wolf cross would be to bag one individual out the target group, most likely a young or injured one and it would be partially eaten when you get there.  Not a success at all in my opinion.

Then there is the other side of the story.  wolves/coyotes and dogs mix like oil and water.  Purpose breeding of domestic dogs can be hard enough.  Let alone trying to cross wolves and dogs.

Waylon

The velociraptors in Jurrassic Park did that exact same thing, I wonder if some of that way back in the lacy's history?

Probably got some t-rex though

Well one thing about it is this .  Unless you was there to see it with your on two eyes when the breed came into existence are any breed for that matte then what I see and believe thats in them is just as good as what you see and believe is in them.  Unless you were there when it happened then everything is speculation I dont care how well doucmented it is are what book it is in.  Its to easy to lie and then go doucment it as history !!!!!!!!!!

So were does this leave us on any breed of dog unless you were there to witness it in person well its  to each his on and what he thinks and believes.

So you don't think I am full of it I went back through some old pictures of me when I was a kid and found these pictures of me and the half kelpie half yote.  Her name was shasta and she was one heck of a stock dog.  Back then we had goats sheep and cattle and it did not matter what u told her to round up she was going to ge it done.  Was a little rough but it didn't take long and the sheep or goats woudent act up lol.  The closest thing to her that I have found is a lacy in their demeanor and actions so I will argue this one to the grave lol there are 2 dogs truly special to me and she was one of them.  (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y114/purebreedcolt/SU1HMDExOTYtMjAxMjA5MDQtMTcwMS5qcGc.jpg)

Waylon...that is some mighty fine logic...I like your brain...  :)

It always boils down to selection and culling practices. Who did it and why?  I'm always curious what is behind my dogs, the harder i look the more i realize all the WHATS ??   in the wood pile. I don't believe any breed is exactly as documented. What qualities do you feed, because thats all you can change. JMO


OHHHH!!!!  And i think these red river hogs decend from zebras.......at the first hint they're running.

Well from what I see with my own eyes and not what I hear are read Am with PurebreedColt on this one.  Of course I cannot say for sure nobody can but when I watch some of these Lacys over the years and still some out here it sure looks like a peice of the puzzle that fits when it comes to yotes not wolf but yotes also the greyhound  fits for me.  The dogs are extremely fast extremely quick also their head and bone structure look a lot alike the greyhound now on the other hand when it comes to the yotes I also see the head and bone sturcture,  I see the prey drive.  I see the staminia  of a yote cause a yote is known to run all nite long after prey from one county to the next with that said I see the cleverness and the wiseness of the yotes in the Lacy dogs its a different kinda cleverness and I also see the meaness which a Lacy has a real wild mean streak grouchy pissed off trait in them its different from any of the dogs that I have owned are bred in my life time and that includes 25 years are more with the Pit Bulls.  A person may say well what do you mean .  I cannot explain it its just there and its different .  Also the Lacys love a good fight and there is no doubts when you are around them long nuff they go by dominaces and they damn sure know who the dominate dog is of course this is in a lot of dogs but untill you have run a full pack of Lacys you aint seen Chit when it comes to this dominate trait they have amoung themself unlike any breed I have see its big time in the Lacys.

Anyway just my 6 cents worth !

Holly cow it is a miracle texashogdogs we agree on something lol

Yup lol and I got to tell ya you was right on the other also .  I just had to do what I had to do to keep the peace.  But now that Am not going to be using a registery to register Lacys are be breeding these dogs on a reg basics.   I got to say there is only one way to keep a foundation of dogs gene pool strong and clean and that is to be able to linebreed ,  heavy linebreed and to inbreed with the strictest rules and to cull what needs to be culled.  The more people scatter breed these dogs the futher and futher from the true dogs this breed is going to get till it is so watered down there noting left but the color.

Yup we agree.

breeding for color will eventually become easy...but breeding for the right traits is hard for some folks for different reasons...right off the top of my head... rolleyes greed, lack of know how, not having the strictest of breeding standards...

purebreedcolt.......she certainly looks the part and I don't think you are full of it, but just curious did you see the breeding or know the dogs sire and dam?  How exactly did that cross pop up?  Did a keplie stud sneak up on a yote gyp stuck in a mud hole or did a kelpie gyp get ambushed by a yote who eventually decided he was more horny than hungry?

Waylon

Lol waylon figured you would ask. The story goes that it was a male yote and female kelpie. They woke up one night to a heck of a squable and there was a yote in the yard and the male kelpie was fighting with him well.  63 days later she popped out looking totally different than the rest. So yes in sorts it was seen not quite though.    I was only 2 or so I guess I can't say for sure lmao

I don't know anything about them but Lacy Man brought two of his over one day and bayed them with my cur gyp who's in good shape and they were WAY faster than her and that was in a pen. I can't imagine how far ahead of her they'd have been if they had more room to run. Looks wise though they look like a stream lined cur dog to me.

One thing I wonder is if the Laceys today are built the same as the originals?

Couldn't agree more

Oh yea back to the question. I would lean to the East Texas collie cross cow dogs. But those EYES where do they get them. I was rattling up bucks on day caught a movement behind me glanced back thought my dog had got out second look it was coyote slipping up on me.

You must have smelled like a stinky buck in rut!

i raise them and the way they act is exactly like a coyote. try and get down wind from whatever they r looking at sneaking around. just my opinion. no one has ever proved it. i dnt think? they r the best dogs i have ever had!!

Sounded like and smelled like one . That's the way I roll Jerry!

Lol

Boo lacy's!!!!

Go currs!!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist puttin in my .02 stupid cents, just had to screw with colby!

Yellow crayons taste way better bro!!! Lololololol

Lolol, I should have left you stranded off the board!!!! Ha jk yellow crayons have grown on me but the blues and reds are
My favorite still. Lol

I've got a red cur Colby same color smarter dog lol!

joe

Aww heck here we go... Lol

You must have never had a easttexas yeller dog. Lol I could not help it. Its just a joke.Lol welcome to the board.