EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

The goal here is to educate/learn so maybe there won't be so many culls out there...the more input the more clear it becomes...

WHAT IS A GOOD HOG DOG??? to put it real simple...take the dog hunting by itself...and if that dog finds and bays hogs and sticks to the track as long as it takes to bay the hog and you walk in and shoot the hog or catch it with a bull dog then you have a hog dog...and if the dog has the knack to find one rather quickly is a plus...

WHY ARE THERE SO MANY CULLS??? lots of reasons...but if we would honestly evaluate our hog dogs and we tested our dogs solo in the field and it hunted and produced hogs just like I mentioned above...then this dog can be further evaluated towards breeding rights...

constantly cross breeding is not the way to go...

handling can make or break a dog...

BUT HOW CAN WE BREED BETTER DOGS IF WE DON"T KNOW WHAT A REAL HOG DOG SHOULD BE???

not trying to pick on anyone...just trying to help in rasing the bar...heck there are some doggers that have been in the game a good while and don't oops losing signal...  ;D

Reuben....you and I see eye to eye on alot...especially regarding selection, training, etc.

One thing I question is the cross breeding. I KNOW there are plenty of pure breeds out there that are "Hog Dogs" and do exactly what your talking about...BUT....

IMO there is nothing wrong with crossing to achieve a goal. ALL.....ALL.....ALL....breeds we hunt with today were crossed to make them what they are.

I lke the kinda dog you talking about for myself but that dog is not what everyone likes. For instance if I had lots of hogs I would want dogs that wouldn't quite go so far. That way they could come on back and let's get another.

 I figured a little mountain cur would make any dog a hog dog.

 ;D

Alot of folks forgot how to sharpen a shovel when the time comes.

The pet aspect seems to get confused with tools of the trade since hunting has become mostly recreational

Kevin your right about all dogs were crossbred at one time or another...If I were to hunt catahoulas or bmc the first thing I would do is put some walker or plott in there...

most mt curs are too small for my liking so a little walker or plott will fix that...but I believe that once we develop a line of dogs we then must do our best to line breed or inbreed to reproduce what is working...the linebreeding will eventually clean up the gene pool so that we are producing a higher than average percentage of what we want in a hog dog...I tend to look at hog dogs from the breeding side of it... :)

my goal is always the same...to have a hog dog that is worthy of breeding so that it can help me to the next level...whether I am breeding 3 litters a year or 1 litter every 3 years...

I typed a big long response and then deleted the whole thing.  I was trying to be nice about it but I am going to be straight to the point.

We have so many culls becuase we have a lot of ignorant, irresponsible people out there breeding and selling culls.  They are breeding and selling culls becuase thier are more ignorant people out there buying the culls that are for sale.  Guess what the ignorant buyer does....yep, sells the dog as something that it is not or breeds it again to sell some more pups.

Ok, there may be a couple of decent dogs out there for sale on sites like this.  But I am here to tell you, the good hog dogs that you mention are not for sale.  For all you young bucks out there that want to know how to avoid buying a cull, you have to buy the dogs that are not for sale.  Go to the woods with a pocket full of money and buy a hog dog in the woods.


Just look at some of the topic headings...(Need Gone Now), Started Dog for sale, barked at a pig in a pen.

Come on guys...why would you buy something that someone else wants gone fast?  A started dog isnt a dog that barked in a pen once.

I could keep going and going.  It makes me sick what I see out there.  Saddest part is people are not researching anything they buy.  There is a girl on here that was selling a lot of stuff last year.  I asked her why and she said she was getting out.  Still to this day she is peddling dogs. 

Ok, I am done now.  Some people ought to be ashamed of what tye are doing.

Again....we're on the same page! I agree with you 100%!

Once you achieve YOUR perfect dog...you stick with it until its necessary to outcross.

That's the whole reason for it in my opinion. I had alot of dogs in the past and I woogie woogie wuvved thems, yes I did, yes I did!  :P I got attached to them, let my wife get attached to them and let my feelings for them cloud my judgement of their piss poor performances.

I have since then learned the value of saying $&@" it! Click click boom.

A good hog dog is one you can tak it and a catch dog and consistently catch hogs

Reuben...on the cull side of your question....

You were right about the handling of the dog....it's just as easy to mess a dog up as it is to bring ones potential out...probably easier. Definitely not all the issue but a small part.

your catching on...  ;D :) JK  ;)

   well yeller black feller   lol    hit the nail on the head hunting has become  RECREATIONAL  folks don't depend on a dog to bring home the bacon we have Wal-Mart for that now . and as such a  mediocore dog will supply most all the fun they can handle . the old saying even a blind squirrel can find a nut comes to mind . most this new age dog folks have not the intestinal fortitude to cull a dog these days . heck I have even gotten a little soft in my old age  lol . concerning old dogs that I don't hunt , to clear that last remark up . if you don't like or can't get out of what you want in a purebred dog a cross  out of the breed will most likely help you on your way . but then it needs to be pulled together and lined out at some point . there has been a dog producing and selling explosion to coincide with the hog population boom we have witnessed as of late and it is to be expected . but it is buyer beware as usual it is not a new scenario , I witnessed the same thing when fur prices went thru the roof and the dog jockeys were in full swing then as now . and then as now there are ALOT  of good dogs for sale but at a price , and some can be had at a hell of a bargain but not many . divorce and moving sales and such . a good dog for any man is a dog that can consistently be turned out and produce pork on a regular basis . but the buyer has to be informed about wether the dog mentioned for sale will hunt HIS STYLE since there are so many .  everybody that has a pack of dogs should at some point evaluate each dog individually  . my views are as such any dog that will not or cannot be dropped on it's own and hunt up and find a hog is not a hog dog .   problem I have noticed is the new comers are in way too big a hurry to get into this and want to make a name for themselves with that [ SPECIAL CROSS ] of world beaters that everybody just has to have  . heck i'm still in the F-! stage in my breedings been to f-2 and f-3 but had to back up and start over to meet something I was lacking , [ tree-power ] as well as tracking and baying  this is a long road with many sacrifices most aren't willing to make . a cross that doesn't work should be labeled as such and the proper actions taken at all cost .  but allas like I said a lot of intestinal fortitude lacking these days  ..    more later lol

I bet you can get a better answer and idea if you come to Randy Bumpur's Tournament. A lot of solid dogs there and plenty of culling practices and whatever most of them boys are doing is obviously right!

Haha . Now terry that's funny . Click click boom !

YOU have got to stop talking about this hunt this weekend!  After scouting last night, i already can't sleep!!!  The more i read about your excited attitude it's make me that more excited!!  Stop PLEASE!!!   :D

That's the whole reason for it in my opinion. I had alot of dogs in the past and I woogie woogie wuvved thems, yes I did, yes I did!  :P I got attached to them, let my wife get attached to them and let my feelings for them cloud my judgement of their piss poor performances.

I have since then learned the value of saying $&@" it! Click click boom.
[/quote]

Took the words right out of my mouth!!
My fiancé gets attached to some of the dogs and I have to STRESS to her that I'm not running a dog rescue! I've only been doggin for four years but I've asked for advise from some of the dog men that's been doing it for 20++ and all o them say CULL HARDER!!!
 And yes some dogs mature faster then others but u need to set boundaries that u will not pass in their age. I was told that there should be culling stages, and DON'T MAKE EXCUSSES FOR YOUR DOGS PISS POOR PROFORMANCE!! And yeh you are going to cull some dogs that will turn out to be great strike dogs when that switch finally goes off in their head to hunt hard.  but that still wouldn't be considered a breeder correct? It would be better to have dogs hunting hard by themselves by one year to one and a half years old or even younger. The dog men that have achieved this are the ones that have pups striking hogs solo on a regular basis. Words to go by CULL HARDER BREED SMARTER >:D

I'm always willing to learn more and I'm the first one to jump at the opertunity to talk too a doggin vet so if anything I mentioned should be inhanced or changed please tell me. I'm the last person to get butt hurt over advise:)

Nowhere near the experiance from dog breeding as most you, and definatley nowhere close to putting down the amount of hogs as most of you,
 But......have made about a thousand mistakes when it comes to my dogs and have been fortunate enough to learn from them, as well as seeing some of the old timers who have put together Awesome lines of dogs.  Successful dogmen all seem to have three major things in common.

1. Breed the Best dogs you Have acess to. This does not mean your two best dogs that occasionally bump a pig.  If I have ONE dog worth breeding, which in all honesty, 50% of us do not, then Im going to breed it to the absolute best dog I can find, NOT my 2nd place potlicker. They dont breed every horse who wins a race or Every rodeo bull who bucks someone off. Why breed every dog that can find a hog. Look at what the coon hunters did for decades. They used World Champions and bloodlines that had been proven Over and Over again to produce Athletic, Instictive power hounds that were steadily better than the previous generations in most cases.  We are regressing in a lot of cases. Read up on the old lines of curs from the late 1800s to the 1970s and tell me we have hounds like that nowadays.  The ones who would of been able to make it on those guys' yards are few and far between.  Alot of dogs nowadays would meet the click click boom if given to those who established these lines of dogs we use today.

 2. CULL your litters. The great ones would rather bury an inferior dog 50 feet down a well than let someone else buy it for Any amount of money. Who on this board has never sold a dog to someone because that dog had flaws that were obvious to you? That dog then enters the system, going from yard to yard teaching their bad habbits to generations of younger dogs and maybe even eventually ending up on some young man's yard who then breeds it to a gyp because she got 4th at some bay pen.  Then you get a litter of idiots and rejects who also enter the system. Selling a bum dog to someone is the Greatest Sin of Dog Men.

3.  Push your dogs harder than the generation before.  Every man deserves one great dog and one great woman.  but after Ol'__________ (insert name) has past on, you cant become content with breeding his offspring over and over again and getting pups that are as good or a hair under him/her.  Everyone loses dogs in this game, some before we can pass on their genetics. but if you think that your program peaked and now you are just maintaining what you have, then whats the point of raising dogs then? The men that established the lines of dogs that we pulled from never settled with just a "good pack of dogs".

Im aware how preachy and concided this comes off but Read it and tell me Im lieing.
I've made alot of mistakes starting out, just trying to keep someone from making the same.

X2  The reason that you don't see a bunch of sorry, no hunting coyotes is because they would starve to death. Mother nature culls hard.  If we culled ( take out of the gene pool ) as hard as mother nature then we would have some good dogs.

Amen...praise the Lawd...mother nature does not make mistakes...  :)

BUT its got a lot to do with style of hunting. Some people love a long range all the bottom u can have type of dog but then others don't. Some like loose baying dogs some dont. So we breed to the style of dogs we like. So who is to say what a real hog dog is?  Some dog that produce a lot of hogs are far from being hog dogs they are just put down in a spot with a lot of hog. Then someone sees this guy putting pics up of all these hogs he has caught and thinks that he has to have the real deal when its not true. So when and how do we know when a dog is the real deal and breed worthy?

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To me a dog that barks on track is a cull but i hear other people saying that it dont bother them. I have very rough dogs and to some they would be culls but they fit my style and my likings. So i just would like to know what some of yall call a hog dog and breed worthy?

I feel a Good Hog Dog is a dog that can and will consistantley find and stop hogs by itself whereever it is hunted as long as there are hogs in the area.   Your personal prefance of silent or open, rough or bay, has nothing to do with being a cull or if its a Good Hog Dog!!! Its about finding and stopping hogs by itself consistantly!!!!!!

I have sold a few and given some away that I kept the breeding rights to, that for one reason or other did not suit my hunting style. But they were Good Hog Dogs that the other person that got them says are Jam Up, and are their best dogs!! Do not beleive that people do not sell/free good dogs because they do. Not everyone, but honest hunters do!! One mans Cull is another mans Star does have some merit to it....

That is what I'm getting at. I have hunted behind dog that other people thought the world of and they where far from that in my eyes. And the whole produce hogs constantly thing has a big hole in it to bc of hog population. I have taken culls to a heavy populated area and they shined. It's all about personal goals. I breed what I have bc I like what I have not bc what some one else thinks and I'm sure that why most of us breed our dogs.

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And to me it has everything to do with personal preference. And I think it should with everyone else to. Don't just think a dog is a hog dog BC so and so said it was, don't just think it is a hog dog BC so and so posted pics of all these hog he has caught. Its a hog dog when u r happy calling it one.

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Taz said:
I feel a Good Hog Dog is a dog that can and will consistantley find and stop hogs by itself whereever it is hunted as long as there are hogs in the area.   Your personal prefance of silent or open, rough or bay, has nothing to do with being a cull or if its a Good Hog Dog!!! Its about finding and stopping hogs by itself consistantly!!!

 I agree completely. That is a good dog. However GREAT dogs can make good dogs look bad.lol It does boil down to personal selection & what u want in a dog.

I have bred dogs for many years and have learned two things. The first being, no matter what you start with or how you breed them, dogs will gravitate to average over time. The second being, after hunting with great and really good dogs, you realize average is not all that good. The sad part is, people are hunting and breeding dogs that would not make the cut back when dogs were needed to survive. I know it's due to the land and hunting situations of today but it's still sad that the the get it done or die trying dogs or disappearing.

bigo...I agree on 2 things you are saying...if left on their own, dogs will gravitate back to average...but if bred right..the dogs will improve beyound where one starts a breeding program...I truly believe that...

and in reality for me there are no such thing as an average hunting dog because that dog belongs with the culls...now there are times that we must tolerate that dog until the right replacement comes along...and...that average dog shouldn't be bred because it begits more of its kind...which is a dog that is a cull or on the replacement list...

Show me a breeder who has bred hunting dogs for many years who gets all good dogs and no average dogs. Most breeding programs start with a supper cross and with hard hunting and ruthless culling you up your chances of produceing the great and real good dogs, but you still have to sort through the average ones to find them. You may up the quality of your average dogs some but you will still get them. You can take average dogs from a good family and with good selection, improve them over time but you can't take great dogs and keep them all comming great.

dillaard. Of course if a dog is hunted on a over populated property with feeders everywhere a average dog will find hogs. I think we are talking about a hunting spot where its not over run and a dog has to hunt to find hogs! a natural setting of big woods or swamps is what I was talking about. I do not keep a yard full of dogs, and when I hunt its with 1-3 dogs. Most of the time its 1 dog out and leading a catchdog. I hunt for the dog work, the hog is the by product of the hunt.. Could care less if I kill another hog, its all about watching a puppy grow up from my breeding, and  turn in to a Jam Up Hunting Dog!!!

Cajun. Nice talking with you yesterday. This is Guy. I agree with you on the Great dog making average look bad. I have only had one dog that I felt was that for my style of hunting!! Caught almost 400 hogs hunting him by himself in less then 4yrs in a area that you better have a Jam Up dog or you would not being catching any of them!!! I always judge my dogs to him which does not fair well for the other dogs. Hopefully I will get what I am looking to produce in the next few years like we talked about!!

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/GuyD/PC310002.jpg)
Bo and Zena. This is all I needed to get it done where ever I hunted!!

I agree that great dogs are hard to reproduce...they are too far away from the normal to reproduce consistently...above average can be the normal to a certain extent...but breeding a once in a lifetime dog and getting pups like him is like winning the lotto...

Taz I understand what u r saying. But if I had permission to hunt some of the marsh right here by me I could catch 400 hogs in a year with a dog i know should not ever be bred bc he is not good enough to earn breeding rights. And if I put the pics on this site of every hog I caught people would think that this dog is a stud. And by what I have read on here that is kind of what happen to the "famous" Ben dog that he was a cull that now is one of the most popular bred cur dogs that people spend a lot of money just to get a portion of his blood. Was he breed worthy?

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dillard you are just wanting to argue over hunting over populatated areas. Your not listening to what I said about places that the hog population is not high and still having a dog that produces hogs. You would not catch 400 hogs where I hunt, I promise you that. I understand what your saying. I see it on the forums. Caught 15 hogs yesterday, I got the best Jam Up dogs in the state, and then you see a video of them walking away from baying a pig.. LOL  I am not talking about those hunting areas or dogs. I do not hunt BMC so I could care less about the over Promoted Ben dog.. Good hunting my friend!!! Hunt and breed what makes you happy!!!!

I'm not trying to argue I just see a lot of people that think just Bc someone on some web site post a lot of pics of caught hogs that they must have great dogs, and want some of that blood.  ;)

why is it that when breeding redbones all dogs are red and all pups are born red???maybe different shades of red but red...

or black and tan coon hounds...

we are 100 percent sure what color these 2 breeds will reproduce...because all know what red is...all know what black and tan is...no problem, unless we are color blind...

why is it that breeding hunting traits is so hard??? probably because not everyone has the same standards, preferrances, know how...it is not in black and white...

Yessir

To me a real hog dog is predictable and dependable. It will find hogs if hogs are there. It will bay that hog and hold him till u are there. It should roll out on command. I don't have a dog like this and I doubt I have a dog that could produce one like this. I also have no intention of breeding what I have. My dogs will find hogs they will hold it till I get there. Rolling out? Nope. I have one that will do this on his own but he isn't consistent. At the same time all my dogs are less than 2 and haven't been on a ton of hogs but I still know at best they may be decent dogs one day.

Why is there so many culls?  Because you got people with no experience what so ever breeding dogs and calling them great when really they are probably not even average.

Why is this because they have no experience no hands on training and no dog back ground what so ever to stand on .

Back in the day you had to learn what a great dog was before you ever even thought about breeding a pair of dogs.  Back in the day you had to be a handler of dogs before you ever thought about breeding a pair of dogs so you would know what a great dog was .  Back in the day  you had to know what a conditioned dog was and not something that was starved down ticking time bomb .  Back in the day you learned from hands on experience and from the older mentors men of the game in both handling dogs and breeding dogs and not read a book on genetics and think you were the next world class breeder of great dogs .  A lot of things you read on paper you can take it and wipe your butt with its worthless.  Back in the day you learned these things from hands on experience and from listening and not talking because until you did anything are produced anything you were at the bottom of the chit hole and nobody cared what you thought are thunk !   Back in the day there were no want adds were just anybody with skin could sell dogs are culls all over the world , back then you knew who was who from face to face meetings and seeing their dogs work in person not like now a days and  shanking hands on the www and calling it good !

There were no Puter Jockeys breeding dogs and the great world wide web at the push of a button to sell them .

Just me man !

Now this is what I think myself.

I think  young inexperience people that are serious about wanting to have good and great dogs and having their own to choose from on their own yard need to not worry so much about the one great dog .  That one great dogs chances of producing himself are better is slim to none unless he is bred right himself !

I think instead of worrying about breeding to the best dog in the world people should be more interested in what the whole family of dogs is  .  They need to find a family of dogs that is known to produce good and great dogs on a consistent basics .  Then start from their get you a dog from these families of dogs  develop the dog and if he is a good dog are a average dog then he will produce you way way more and  your chances of getting a great dog is way higher than just going out and breeding to are buying a dog just because he is the best thing since sliced bred but ain't bred worth a red cent !  He are she have no family history none and what does that usually produce nothing .

What is a great dog to me.  One that is bred right to start with .  Then one that will do what his pedigree says he will .  If he is from a family of great find dogs then he needs to be as good as good can be if not a great find dog, he needs to be able to perform like his family tree says it should .  Now if he is good with that now I know I got a very good to great chance of getting more great dogs from him because of his family's history behind him so I go and find me a bitch that mirrors him and is from a different line but she mirrors her family and the history behind her .  Now you can breed you some dogs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Start your own yard of good dogs you have the good to great find dogs to start with and you got both dogs family history behind them to back everything up !

This is what great dogs are to me !

PS .  A word of advise leave the commercial chit alone and believe what your own eyes tell you not what somebody else is telling you !   

I agree. I know a guy that a lil over a year ago had never owned a dog but now is an expert. One thing to me is I see people running dogs that don't pay enough attention to their dogs to know what or how they hunt in order to figure out what they need to work on. All they do is yap and wait on the bay.

Shotgun/texashogdogs...I agree...nicely put...

I'm with ya 100%

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first is a cull a cull .... most of the time i just buy back (culls) and make real nice dogs out of em .i don't even keep pups  myself and raise em  except for the  last couple litters ..  if a dog is bred right out of a family of good dogs and culls out its  usually fault of the owner ......


far as my opinion of a  hogdog  there's all kinds shapes and sizes and some really hard  to beat at what they good at  ....  but a  true  top dog will produce a  hog about anywhere  you  hunt em .....  yes  i got one .... i can put him on a 7  hour  track and he may start  it  over 4  times  then line  it out and  find  it 3/4  of a  mile  off  bedded .....  he'll wind off the buggy  .... i can  hunt him ahead  of me down a  lane as i ease  along or i can stop and  if i don't  move  he will  move  on out in country where  there  is  hogs  he very seldom  comes  back til he finds  one  ....  he makes  hog hunt'n look easy .....  but those  don't  come along very often ... but  if  you breed a  consistant line  those  will pop  out more  often ....


 advise  ....  depending on how  you hunt find  someone that has dogs that do well hunting  that style  get  you some  of  em ... you'll be  happy with em and  if  you breed em they'll probably  throw  more  of the same ......  leave  the inventing to the inventors  hahaha  just picking but  they'd  be  way  less culls ...