EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I know I will get some smart remarks but I wanna ask you guys something .

Do yall know what a cold bitch is are referring to ?  When you hear a man say that bitch is a cold bitch do yall know what this means are referring to ?



A cold bitch in a real sure nuff family breeding program is a dog that will not do what it is bred to do .  In other words a dog that has been bred for 50 yrs but comes out what some of us call cold and will not perform but is bred to the hilt with noting but family blood .  In other words bred second to none out of great great dogs threw out the years within the family .

Now don't get me wrong we are not talking about some old crossed up this and that and this and that kinda dog because if a dog is cold coming out of those kind of breedings it needs to be kickin up daisys there is no gentic sence !  Its just a scatter bred mutt is all this is but there is a difference in one that has been bred for years on in outta great dogs this is what I call a cold bitch and a lot of old time dogmen would call a cold bitch .

Cold ........Again here what am talkin about is a dog that has years and years and years of breeding behind her but will not hit a lick.

What could be the reason behind this ?

What yall gonna do with a bitch like that ?

You notice I don't mention a cold male because a cold male to me is no better than the scatter bred mutt and will kick up daisys also .   But a cold Bitch hummmmm whats the deal guys? 

Know from reading that some good game dogs came from cold bitchesin fact some of the greats.  Lol I know what your talking about and the dog might and might not have been known as cold because the guys didnt want it knpwn their line threw a cold dog.  Have no idea how does work though

This is a bulldog term, simply because a cur dog bitch that did this would ultimately be culled pretty quick outta most people's yard I would think.

Are you saying that you can spot a cold bitch in a cur dog line?

Sounds like just another term for a cull to me and should not be bred anyhow

A dog that won't hunt is a cull regardless of breeding. Male or female makes no difference.

    well the reason behind it tex is no matter how well a line is drawn out , you still AIN'T NEVER GONNA  get a 100% of the pups that preform within the line , which is why you have to be all ways vigilant in the breeding program .

I agree with that mr whiten but I think some guys put to much faith breeding. The hunt comes from pray drive that is hard to breed it just pops out like football players you never know where the greats come from if we knew every hog dog would be the best I would put a well trained mutt up against the best bred dog if he was a hog dog but every dog has their place in our packs. Little breeding lots of time and training well get it done

ive never herd this term before in this way , i find it very interesting , back in the day that this term was made cold was for a different meaning not hunting so in that world I have no reply , but in my world ill take my bulldog pups and watch for a couple of months and try to figure out there personality , if there calm and laid back that would be one for a home with kids , if there on go all the time and alert this would be one for a hunter , this has worked in the past and I have hit it on the head on my pics for homes and the personalitys of the dogs when they have matured , I would think that a true dog man also would have the abilty to have a good idea of what hes got after a couple of months of observing his pups , in the hog hunting world I guess cold would mean no hunt or no catch , so in my book this would be someones family yard dog , I gave a pup to a friend that I would call cold , old school blood , linebreed , his kids loved it , it never even would bark at people walking by , it was everyones friend , one day someone walked by and stole his dog because it was so cold , I never thought of it this way but that is what she was , didnt have a mean bone in her body but came from old school blood , I gave two to a family member I picked for him to catch hogs with and they were hot , they got loose and killed they neighbors goats and  I relocated both dogs , one after a month at her new home she gutted the family pet , the other is a hog catching machine ,  I think its all in there personality , not a cull in my book  , they just need a differnt kind of home to go to and the hot ones sure enought need to go to people that know how to handle and keep a tight grip on this type of dog

  i'm like you bob , I will allways try and find a job for a dog . some of my [ hog dogs ] were better suited working cattle and some just became good ol farm dogs that kept the critters out of the chicken pen . every dog has a job it is suited for , if it ain't no more than keeping an old lady company . maybe I've gotten soft with the shovel in my old age  lol  but if I breed them I will do them the curtisy of trying to make sure they live a good life . hasn't been many that didn't make the grade but there has been a few .

I didn't know cold bitch referred to something other than my wife...  >:D

I ain't got enough experience to have a say in this one, but like the others I think it sounds like another term for cull...

I can see the term used in bulldogs and their breedings.  I've read alot of history concerning cold dogs in breeding as far as BULLDOGS go.  I don't think the term has a place in cur dogs.  Two different dogs bred for two different things, the basic concept don't even match up in my opinion because of the major differences in what the dogs were bred for.

In the cur dog world, she wouldn't be considered cold, just a cull no matter how well she's bred.  Because if she's got a lot of breeding behind her that good, and you consider her just cold and not a cull, then you are essentially saying your line produces zero culls.

There's been some cold bitches in the bulldog world that dogmen/women took a chance on as brood that wound up producing some great dogs.....

don't know anything about the terminology on game bred dogs...but cold bitch probably means a bitch that is so inbred that she is a dud...could never be a champion...probably tired blood (inbreeding depression)...but this female when bred with the right males will produce top dogs...

I would rather breed or own one of these cold bitches that comes from the very best than to breed a top of the line champion that is scatter bred with a few top dogs in the back ground amongst a bunch of average dogs and dogs that are not proven...

or am I way off base with what a cold bitch is???

A cold bitch can come from any line, loose or tight. Hell (historically speaking) I've seen more cold acting bitches from scatterbred stuff than I have tightly bred stuff....but that's just my personal experiences.

Cold in the historical bulldog world meaning that they never 'turn on'/show any kind of dog aggression whatsoever.

A true cold bitch that is bred second to none  can be a great great producer of great great dogs it is a proven fact in the game dog world and I would see no difference in the bog dog world of breeding dog. There is not two cents worth of difference you are still breeding for performance!
But there are keys to breeding these great producing kinds  of cold bitches.

Well, heck for that matter what's wrong with cold dogs? What if a dog is a good for nothin cull on performance? As long as their bred right, why not not breed him several times and see what happens? What about if you have a crummy cull bitch AND a crummy cull dog who are both bred to the nines? Let em hang and see what happens?

From what I've seen in my short time, it's pretty durn tough making top quality dogs, and if a dog doesn't have "it" then even if he passes on a good trait or two, isn't he more than likely also multiplying the percent of crap traits?

Reuben ,  a true cold gyp is one that is bred threw the wazzz zzoooo but will not hit a lick at a stick but bred from super dogs great family blood and usually as tight as you can get it .

Number one ,  the gyp has to be heavy heavy line bred and inbred on her family line of dogs and be a true cold bitch.  This means shows no interest in her profession none nota noting.  This is the definition to cold .  If she hunts for a few mins comes back she is not true cold and there is a big big big difference and you will be breeding a cull into your stock so know the difference !

Number two,  you want to take a bitch like this and out cross hard hard never ever ever breed this bitch back into your family of dogs if you do it will end in disaster because she is already bred way to tight and the cold gene has found her and when bred back into her family it will find the other cold genes and they will pair leaving you will hell  !   You cross this super bred cold bitch out to a hard hard cross and a great hard core performance male of great breeding himself  . What this does is tear down her gene pool with his and it leaves the cold gene out in space looking but never finding its partner that will ruin you .  I can almost promise you there is going to be some super type dogs in this liter and there are going to be culls also but the ones that are for real are for big time real.  You might want to think about keeping the whole liter because the odds of giving away the super dog is pretty high .   This type of breeding is not for someone that is half asssed into breeding this is for the breeders that has a family of dogs and has had them for years and knows what he is looking at in his line.


Number 3,  Once the cross is made and you have a couple of super dogs you are going to want to breed this dog back into your line because he is such a great great dog but that is a lethal mistake .  Because he is still carrying that cold family gene in his gene pool and if he is bred back into his family the cold genes will find each other and pair off again and you are right back in the cold box two times over now .   This does not mean this super performance bred dog from a cold bitch cannot produce great great dogs it just means he should never be bred back into his family of dogs .  If you take this dog and breed him into another super line of dogs that are out crosses from his blood then you can start you on family of dogs off of this cross because the out cross you made with him is not carrying the same cold gene that he is there fore they cannot pair to deal you misery .  What you should do is take this super male from the cold gene breed to a super bitch that is  super bred from her own line get your pups and then breed back into her line using now the super bred dog that has the cold gene as a out cross then what you  have done is flip flopped his gene pool from a major family line to using it as a out cross which will damn near put the cold gene in his gene pool non existent and you reap the rewards from his heritage without the chance of the cold gene.



LOL Breeding is just like a road map it takes you to were you to go .  Its a puzzle you put it together right and you got a pretty thing you make pieces fit were they don't go and you got scatter bred bunch of noting .

Now this sounds like a bunch of work and it damn sure is but when you are really breeding for the one in a million kinda dog and you are using your on dogs for performances purposes then it is a life learning experience.  Back in the day it was noting for a man to have 75-150 dogs on his yard going threw each and everyone of them living and learning what and what not to do .  These were men that excepted noting but excellence and if you think there is people on here quick to cull you ain't seen noting one wrong move one bad blink of the eye and the dog are dogs were history !   These men were pioneers of breeding dogs they tried and experienced everything there was noting they would not try are do to get those one in a million dogs and as a result of all of this hands on experience and experiences you learn things the average person are breeders will never know.  We are just damn lucky that some of these Ole time great breeders of dogs at least passed some of their knowledge on to future generations . I don't expect a lot of folks to understand all of this and to blow it off because they have never seen are experienced are walked up to a mans farm are ranch are house and seen 200 dogs on his own yard and all of his breeding program for the last forty years.  Its hard to imagine I know but you damn well better believe it is fact and not fiction !   This is just a conversation piece on here for the people that are interested in things that are facts and are history proven.  I just love talking breeding dogs and performance animals if makes me no difference if someone wants to laugh and blow it off are not but know this everything said has been done tired and true threw out bulldog history and dog breeding history.

now that I know the meaning of cold bitch in the game dog world I can see that what you are saying is right...open breeding (scatterbred) normally produces a higher cull rate...line breeding with a small amount of inbreeding as long as the dogs used are all proven dogs will produce a higher percentage of quality dogs...

But what Texashogdogs is talking about is inbreeding depression (tired blood)...that cold bitch is still very valuable on account of her heritage...and she becomes more valuable if she is the only bitch you have left...

Tbob...I do see your point...reading between the lines you are saying a cull is a cull...I do agree with that but there are times when breeding the right cull is the right answer but then that should not be often at all...strictly my opinion on that and that is what I believe...I sure wouldn't make that cull bitch or dog the hub for my breeding program if I had one...That dog would be a stepping stone to keep me moving in the right direction with the breeding program...

I agree a cull is a cull.  I don't condone this type of breeding myself and have very rare done it on occasion in the bulldogs but not in the hog dogs as of yet . I don't have any dogs as of yet bred tight enuff to qualify and don't really plan on it I like the gene pools with room to breath.  I have seen it done with great results and had some good results myself in the bulldogs with it .   If a dog will hunt any at all it is not a cold dog if it hunts two mins it is not a cold dog if it does anything towards hunting it is not a cold dog.  This is were a lot of people ran into trouble in the bulldogs people had a hard time knowing what a true cold dog was and instead bred a cull thinking different and ran into big time trouble.

A true cold dog is one that never starts at all noting !

Think of it this way if a dog never ever starts how can it be a cull at what it does ?

Most dogs have no reasons to be cold just not bred tight enuff to matter.  A very very heavy heavy heavy family bred dog does and its not their faults its the breeders for going so tight and heavy therefore in the correct way they can be used as a advantage for someone that wants to do it .

I understand where your coming from, and Im not gonna laugh it off or be a smart ask, I'm pointing this out for clarity's sake.
You just admitted that this dog shouldn't be taken back into his own family for the risk of doubling down on a cold gene. So my question is, Couldnt you have avoided this all together by not breeding his ol cold momma in the first place? Where I am coming from is, if you hit an emergency and are out of options, then sure, do what you have to to keep your head above water, BUT in my belief, breeding a dud is a mistake.
You would be knowingly installing faulty genes into your dogs.
There's no garuntee that a family bred super star doesn't have cold genes, but there IS a GARUNTEE that a cold dog or bitch does.

That's all I'm getting after. No offense, good topic.

Sure T Bob that is the best way to avoid it  I agree.  I don't condone it myself but if someone had themselves a old time blood gyp that was cold what am saying is don't let her go to waste are if she is only one of a few left and is really cold take that gyp and breed her but know how first to better your odds .

What happened with this in the bulldog game was just this .  The gyp are gyps were so excellent bred but cold and the breeders didn't want to let them go to waste so they tried different things and found out that what I just wrote about up there.  Matter of fact I have had some really alot tell me that these cold heavy bred bitches made even superior producing dogs to the bitches that were great performance dogs and bred the same way .

I myself don't really know why this is other than what I tired to explain up there .  From what I know a lot of people would chit their britches if the truth was really told about how many bitches that were claimed to be great dogs that were really cold heavy bred family bitches and produced some great great dogs.  There was a lot more of this going on in the bulldog world that was let out .  Some of the dogs that came from these cold bitches were so superior that it has went on for years and this is why some lines of bulldogs produce so many cold dogs is because the secret was never let out and when the people got these dogs that come from these cold lines and didn't know it they tried to family breed them and ended up junking the whole yard .

Anyway man I understand exactly what you are saying .

  I know exactly what your talking on now tex  , no different than a heavily inbred line of game fowl . you get to a point in time and start getting runners but you take them hens off that running line and put under another family of roosters and you are back in the derby money  . been their and done that with a family of whitehackle chickens . I was gonna kill every one of them and start over till I got schooled by an old friend of mine . he gave me a cock off of his line of whitehackles to put over them hens and told me to keep the offspring and start a new line or gene pool to pull off of and to carry on   lol . but you talk about inbred I got a trio in 1979 and was still breeding them up until 1999 i'm surprised they didn't start coming out with two heads and four drumsticks   lol . but they had gotten to about half the size of regular whitehackles  .

There you go Halfbreed thank you.  I bet them suckers were bad to when you first made that cross !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Everybody wants to think breeding  is different between each performace animal but it is not you are after one thing the win and a great performace animal .

The best way to avoid all of this is don't think you have the world by the ars with your breeding program and think you can just breed your line forever and ever with never introducing a outcross from outside blood are don't think its just gonna heal its self from within the line because it aint !

In other words don't be kennel blind and let that Ego breath !

I can't say I agree or not, I don't know chit from chinola...but it sounds like a phrase I heard "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" If the cold phase is a matching of recessive genes, it would most likely be buried again by an outcross, until it finds its mate again. Not really a terrible thing especially if there is common knowledge of its presents, can be dealt with accordingly.

 Truth told? how many JUNK traits lay behind these dogs that we DON'T know about, and could rear an ugly head?

  I would take a superior performance (Carrier) over an above average (non-carrier just to say "I" eliminated that gene) everyday of the week & Sunday. If it takes breeding a bred to hilt gyp that doesn't ACT THE PART to an outside male that (to this point anyway) is bred top end and defines his genetics......I'm in, for one cross anyway ;).  The chances of her producing straight culls is lower then anything I've read about lately.........and if you get a super high % of chit sniffers, your male is most likely a "carrier" also.   

On a flip side.......if a person wanted to eradicate this cold gene this gyp could be a huge asset to help determine carrier males???????

Tex, this is a great topic like many that you and Rueben spawn. I am nobody in a mass of nobodies, so read it for what it is......a different perspective, & probably not right at that!
This kinda stuff is interesting. Its like a melting pot of okies & rednecks with art & science........my money is on the okies & rednecks through trial and error.

yes tex this is a good post , but I really dont understand you , you ask the question but already know the answer , you are a vast of knowledge about bulldogs and breeding from what i have read on your post , no disrespect , I truely value your knowledge , are you just bored and feel like toying with the dummys or what lol

That's what it is all about Corey is people discussing the times and experiences they have been threw and everybody throwing in their  knowledge, ideals and what they think to bring out new ideals and ways of doing things.  I know some think am full of chit but what I say I have seen you know what I mean.  Does it work all the time why hell no but I will tell you what I do ,    I do from my experiences from my time with the dogs and the people that I know and knew that helped me along the way.  I love this stuff  lived it, ate it and slept with it for a long long time.  No one man has market on breeding dogs there is always room for improvement and things to learn .

LOL Well I start out gonna ask the question and tell myself am gonna leave it on here a day are two before I say anything just to make things interesting and see what people think and have to say but damn man some were between asking the question and typing it down here I cant stand it and have to answer it myself most the time before most have the time to post .  Some probably don't like my answer but it comes from my experience.  LOL I guess am a Weirdo Lmao !

Its nice to have thought stimulating topic, with folks that are comfortable enough to put it on the table.  So many people feel all this stuff is CIA certified TOP SECRET.  Every species of performance animal alive would greatly benefit for folks being straight out with each other............your preference may not suit me, but at least we could draw upon one another to potentially get closer to our respective "IDEAL".

yes Corey...once upon a time it was all top secret with me...all the dog meds that were for horse and cows that I used on dogs...

breeding my dogs was top secret...lots of folks back then thought that line breeding caused the pups to be born dumb and crazy and I just agreed...this long time dog breeder saw my dogs on a hunt and he was one of those that believed that old wives tale...he asked me if I was getting one or 2 good pups to the litter that turned out...I didn't tell him that the majority of the litter made hunting dogs...

but as I got older I have come to realize that sharing the knowledge will ultimately produce less culls for everyone...or is that getting older our priorities change???  :)

I understand the cold bitch breeding program. I realize why it will work in the game dog world.  My concerns in the cur hog dog breeding program are as follows:
 
1. You are dealing with many more traits you are attempting to improve on (speed, hunt, range, grittiness, bottom, desired size, nose, temperament, etc., etc.)

2. Being able to determine if a cur bitch is genuinely "cold", I think would be impossible, because of so many more traits you are working with.

I know very little when it comes to the game dog world, but it seems that you are only concerned with a few traits; game and strength.

Just seems that the more traits you are dealing with the less likely this type of breeding program would work.

Reuben you are right on.  There was a time not long ago you could not have beat this info out of me like I talk about on here.  But times change and have changed so much over the last 30 yrs its unreal.  I have talked some about men that kept 100/150 dogs and some way more than that on their yards old time breeders.  People these days do not understand that its just the change of times and the change of people .  To me the greatest gen of people were the people from the 1900's to the 1960's hard core folks that played hard and lived hard fought many wars and made this country what it is today.  Hell it was noting back in the 40's 50's even 60's for dogs to be going at it in the streets with law watching and betting ,  coon hunts that lasted all week long .  People get togethers on the weekends at dances and in their own homes and farms playing music just a rasing hell the ole way.  Hot rods big blocks racing down every street ,  kids everywere outside durning the summers if they were not working on the farms and ranches they were playing football in the sand lots and baseball .  God was in schools and in the Gov. now you cannot even say a prayer without some kind of BS getting started.  This day and time they advertise birth control for 12 14 yr old girls on Tv you can flip threw any cable and watch shows with sex toys and then jump on the PC and with the touch of a finger a 15 yr old be watching porn and you cannot go down the road are anywere that a 12 yr old kid aint got a cell phone pinned to his head are they are texting 24/7.  Kids don't want to work anymore along with a lot of adults and no body wants to sweat are get their hands dirty .  Everybody wants everything with out having to do the work to get it and the worst part about it is they don't give a chit what it took to make it they just want it here and now .  I feel sorry for the younger guys these days that really want to learn to breed the dogs the old school ways because all they have is other know it alls on the net to contend with that is not much older than them and has not bred a hand full of dogs that is worth a crap but yet can tell you everything ya wanna know about the breeding programs .

Yup times have changed and Am afraid the old school ways that made these breeds of dogs so great and what they are today are changing and going down the tubes about as fast as our younger gen of people are .  You know I firmly believe that it is not God that is going to destroy this world again it is the people that live in it and all he will have to do is come behind them and clean it up when it is all said and done .

I don't have time to read through this whole thread so I'll just answer your question directly as to what I would do IF I decided to breed a "cold " bitch..

1. I would only consider it If she was for sure a COLD bitch and would not start period.
2. I would breed her to an exceptional dog from another line.
3. I would NOT breed her back into my line of dogs.
4. I would never breed any of her offspring back into my line no matter how good they were..

I'd like to go more into it but I can't now.
Interested to see the responses on this one..

Also the exceptional dog I bred her to would be from another line would be a tightly bred line of dogs.

Woooooo  Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee boy are you far far far away from the truth there dealing with many more traits and I don't mean this in a smart way just trying to get you to understand here.  I know you don't know and understand how the bulldogs worked and I know that is why you are saying this but no sir the complete dog was like finding a needle in the middle of the Atlantic.

LOL Well in the game dogs you have the same kind of thing and just as hard are harder to put together than a great hunting dog.



Number one and above all is Gameness but that does not win all the time you have to have style , ability , mouth, quickness, speed, wind, lungs, staminia , durability, types front end , back end, chest , gut , other types a defensive dog , a straight forward dog , a finess dog and it goes on and on and on .   Trying to put together the perfect dog believe me you can proably count out of all  the 100's of thousands are maybe millions  there might be a 100 are so that can be named the complete dog and

I bet there aint that many!

and in my 30 years of breeding I will tell you just how hard it is I only had 1 that was the complete  dog .  Sure there were some great ones but only 1 that fits that one in a million and that is 30 yrs with some of the best that lived ! 

chainrated

Me and you are dead on bullseye with the way we think how we would do it  and what we would do , dead on man .