EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Okay so I've heard bits and pieces of opinions on this topic. What I'd like to hear from y'all is what are your opinions on using a dog in both the pen and the woods? I guess the general consensus is that a dog has to be either/or
......that you can 'ruin' a woods dog (once it's started up) by working it in a pen. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and experiences
on this......

I've heard the same thing, but.....

I've had woods dogs that I would work in a pen every so often....mainly just to start pups. I didn't do it on a regular basis....that being said.... It never affected the performance in the woods.

Thing is....a lot of woods dogs either just don't care about a pig in a pen or they will tend to get rough. There are, I'm sure, some exceptions. My Jasper dog....as a pup... I think could have been a good competition dog. As he got older/better at hunting and got some experience...I was just curious....wondering what he would do. I think he was 10 months old the last time I put him in a pen... It was an 80lb or so Boar ... That I THOUGHT he would bay on...he was never catchy at all in the woods...hardly even caught with the CD's at that point. Long story short... He bayed until the boar charged...then snatched the ear. It was totally out of character for him. To this day he still doesn't catch alone in the woods.... Even on those size pigs. Honestly... I've thought about taking him to some competitions just to see what he would do in that setting on larger hogs....but I'm hesitant.... Probably not for the reasons you think though....

I had a Catahoula out of good northern Louisiana blood.... Straight woods dogs. My intent when I bout him at 10 months was for him to be the foundation of my blood. He was great in the woods...even at 10 months... Striking and baying on his own. I worked him in a pen a few times and he HAD "IT".... That special something that ALL great competition dogs have. He was tight, focused and relentless. Long story short I retired him from the woods (stupid). Ran him in competition only...he won his fair share. He was barely over a year old at Earls in 2000 and placed 19th in the 1 dog. He sired some good pups and I sold him for $1500 when I got out (twice what I paid for him and he had made me at least that much in payouts over the 6 months or so I owned him).

That atmosphere, the competitions, the people....I really enjoy. I don't THINK Jasper has the "IT" that I saw in Boudreaux but I'm afraid to find out, lol. I find that setting very appealing and I would be hard pressed to stay away if I knew I had something special. Then again....I don't think I would quit hunting him either....which brings about the dilemma...

That's one of the things that keeps REAL GOOD pen dogs out of the woods. Not that they CANT do it. Just the fact that it COULD affect their "game" and there is always the possibility of them getting killed /lost in the woods.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

There's a fella up near the prison in La that has pen dogs...will bay the hair off a hog from what I'm told...none of them have any hunt, again, from what I'm told from someone I trust.

Personally, I think it's two differing vocations. If you're selection and sort doesn't include traits required for a woods dog...you'll lose them.

Well... If your talking about starting a dog in one place or the other for an extended period ... Years... And then trying to cross over... I think your probably right.

As far as blood goes... I know for fact you can take a good blooded pup from hunting stock...and IF he makes a dog good enough to win in the pen...keep him there, then sire litters out of him from good blooded hunting gyps and Those pups stand a better than average chance at making woods dogs or competition dogs either way. It CAN be done THAT way. Seen it plenty.

I have an ol spotted dog that does both pretty well and i hasn't affected him in any way.

I was wanting to give a shot at making one of my young leopards a competition dog....but I don't want to lose out on a potentially good woods dog either. Thing is, I hunt year round pretty much with exception of summer. I'd realistically only make it to one or two pen competitions a year. I could work said dog in a pen for practice all year though. I just don't know. I guess I just wanted to know if anyone's ever hunted a dog in the woods year round and then used that same dog in any competitions. I guess what it boils down to is that it really is a 'one or the other' kinda deal. Thanks for the insight given so far...I look forward to reading anyone else's insight as well. Thanks y'all.

I hunt that dog every month of the year since he was about 5 months old, and i would take em to cool arrow bay pen and crack em for a few hundred. He isn't papered and i don't know much about his background but for 35$ I'd buy a few more out of that line. Good luck ma'am i hope it works out for ya, keep us updated.

Krystale, check your messages.

The typical problems observed in the past with this scenario is not especially the versatility of the dog......but complete opposite requirements for in or out of the pen.

Used to be able to pick out the woods dogs being used in the pen competition because they were standing fifteen feet back and only moved in when the hog broke or the handler started pressuring the distance.

Same principal the close face to face pen dogs were typically the ones under your feet and the ones you were digging a hole for after they did find a goodun in a thicket.  

My opinion two different animals.   With very very very few exceptions.  

PM replied :D

A good pen dog reminds me of a dog that busts bays in the woods.

     Qualities that make a good woods dog means nothing in a pen.

Unless every dog on the ground acts like a good pen dog  ;D

I'm still educating myself on the rules of the pen comps....but I gather that it is preferred that the dogs bay very tight?

I believe you can have a dog that does both without any problems...if the dog is one that works well in the pen and then does great in the woods then go for it...

the biggest thing with a competition bay dog is giving the right training and knowing how much and when etc...etc...I know about how much bay pen training for a woods dog but not sure about the competition bay dog training...Kevin seems to be the one on here that has experience in that area...

I have never been a big fan of bay pens but have had three dogs that were hunted year round in the woods and the only time they saw a bay pen was when they were entered in competition. One of them was my old Gus dog and he won about half the bays he was entered in and the other ones usually gave a good account of themselves. I stoped by Randy Wrights on the way home from hunting the time they had an open competition and won it with the Gus dog.
  A good dog is a good dog in the pen or the woods. A good dog will square up in front of a hog, bay hard and only bother the hog if he tries to leave. Most dogs that are in bay pen competitions are out of bay pen dogs that were bred to bay pen dogs and were never selected for hunt, find, and stay.

This^^^^^

If you have a dog that is nose to nose with the hog while baying, gives a bark a second, never takes his eyes off the pig.... No matter what. Doesn't let the hog drift and lays teeth immediately if the hog runs .... well.... If you have all that, then you have a PERFECT competition dog..... you will win A LOT!!
You can sometimes get by with less....

Nose to Nose....just as long as a dog stays within 4-6 feet you probably won't get a deduction.

Bark a Second....that's ideal but as long as there is not an extended break...say 5-8 seconds... Probably no deduction.

Never takes its eyes off the hog... Focus is big. There are lots of distractions in the competition arena. Combine that with crowd noise or a possible rough hog and there are plenty of chances to screw up. A "look out" is a deduction, a circle out is a BIG deduction. Even under a full blown charge by a rank hog... The dog needs to keep eye contact at all times.

Drifting.... Unacceptable. The dog should work the head of the hog... The dog needs to be in control....Holding the bay. It's better for a dog to nip the hog and make him set up then let him drift 30 feet down the fence.

Laying teeth...it's essential if the hog breaks. Again, the dog CANNOT let the hog control the bay. Some hogs are green, their rough and it's hard to get a good score. A dog that lays teeth and battles on hogs like this SHOULD get a better score than a dog that let's the hog cover every square inch of the pen while just baying. This is the part of scoring that can get....oh....kinda soft. It can differ from pen to pen.

Man I DO love the competition. I'm gonna have to get back in sometime soon  ;D

Good points on the pen etiquette. 

Now gotta ask yourself if you can take that dog into the worst thicket you cannot crawl through with a hog that took 4 hours to bring to bay........can that same dog handle a rank woods hog in its own environment?

Helped friends shovel dirt on many that tried.

Gotta be the monkey wrench for sake of conversation.  Lol :laugh:

Are there some that can handle both adequately ......sure.  But typically Jacks of all ......Masters of none. And one in a thousand that is Maverick all around.

Thanks Kevin! That was nice and clear.

Thanks everyone else as well who has given input here. Very helpful

Well...I first want to say.....I've been away from the game for a WHILE. So... I'm....well my observations have been limited over the past few years and I don't want to step on any toes. That being said... I personally have never seen a top notch woods dog be a top contender at Earls.

Here is a scenario that really gets to me...but first an explanation...just like many differences in bay dogs so is the same with bay pen hogs...most hogs in the bay pen circuit know to not run from the dog but to just face the dog...the dog does a great job and bays the hog...dog gets lots of points...it should be extra points for the handler to make the hog break so the dog can show he can stop a hog and bring it to bay...

Nah brotha wasn't a jab at you. Was just taking your pen etiquette....which I feel is very accurate from the last few I have been to and thrown it into realistic woods bays for the sake of the conversation.

My opinion is firm based on what we have witnessed with attempted cross overs from one to the other.
And I am a lil hard headed also........Hehe.  ;D

Yeah Reuben....a lot of your score can be luck of the draw as far as what kind of hog you get. Back in the day  rolleyes at my "home pen" there were a couple of pretty rank hogs that didn't like to be pressured to much. First thing outa the chute they would make a run at ANY human they saw.... Then they would go sit in a corner and wait. If the dogs bayed tight...it was a good chance there would be a full charge. Then the dogs would have to show their stuff. They would test some dogs.

Other hogs would just set up... Pretty as you please.
Some dogs did good on these hogs... Others didn't.

Back then you could turn out 1 hog (decline it) but you had to take the next one. Gave you a little leeway if you knew the hogs and your dog.

If u take a woods dog to a pen it's for fun. If u wanna get seriouse get a pen dog. Can a woods dog win yes. Will it win a big money bay? Probly not. I don't figure once a month will ruin a woods dog but could keep them slobbering for that next ear.


Shotgun
Arkansas

I like

   I Know my lead dog can bay solid in a pen and that doesn't stop him from hunting, finding, stopping an having the bottom for hours to show the hog And still know, (role out) !  yes top contenders have placed at uncle earls that's been wood dogs!      A truly good dog shouldn't care or matter where the hog is!!   

I enjoyed reading everyone's input here. Thanks all who contributed! I am very fortunate to have a mighty fine pup coming that I'll be pickin up this week  :D, that I will be specifically focusing on/working with to be a pen comp dog. If anyone gives a hoot, I'll post periodic updates on that journey :D I'm really looking forward to it....

good idea...post the entire journey like the mistakes as well as what is working...I used to enter my dogs and they did ok but I never trained in the pen for it...I am thinking that the guys who win on a regular basis have good bay pen dogs but that is only half of it...the other half is how often to train and for how long amongst other things...

I can certainly do that. I have a hunting buddy over here that is good friends with a woman that has some very very good pen dogs, and I am looking into meeting her through him and trying to learn as much as I can on the specifics as in what is a good training regimen for a pen comp dog. I think the hardest part about getting into something 'new,' is finding someone experienced in that area that is willing to share some insight and knowledge on the subject. For every small handful of generous folks willing to mentor someone, there's twice as many that will not give a newcomer the time of day, lol, especially in anything that's competitive. I'm looking forward to the journey. I'll start the thread when my new addition is here.