EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Well, I wanted to start a productive (hopefully) conversation here. Should make for a good topic.

Reinventing the wheel. I have been seeing this term used lately in various threads, on different forums. I know what this means. However, what I want to know from y'all is, why is it that often in threads where people will mention doing crosses, people are quick to jump to the 'reinventing the wheel' statement? What is wrong with people crossing breeds together that very well may work out for what they want in a dog? I'm talking about the folks that actually put forth a lot of thought into a cross.....not Joe Blow who just wants to throw this and that together cause they think it will be 'cool,' or because all they have is a male Catahoula and a female black mouth. I myself have even received this comment before on a working dog forum, but once I explained in depth what my goals and aspirations were, that person actually was on the same page as me, and asked me to keep them updated on my progress.

When you think about it, while dogs were domesticated and breeds were created many many years ago, some of the breeds we have today that people are very happy with, are fairly new! Another thing I don't think people realize at times is that certain, if not all breeds were created by combining breeds that were already in existence! When doing a cross with specific goals in mind, I don't feel that it's always someone trying to reinvent the wheel. Reinventing the wheel to me, would be like me saying that I'm going to trap some coyotes, and domesticate them, and make them into hog dogs! (Silly I know, but it helps make the point I'm trying to make.)

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Like I said, I know there have been a lot of pi$$ing matches lately, and this is NOT what I'm wanting from this discussion. I feel that this thread could make for a very productive and enjoyable conversation.

I don't see nothing wrong with crossing breeds. For instance I may want a silent catahoula with a better nose than a full cat. So I cross a cat with a hound till I get the desired amount of hound n that cat I want. 1/2. 1/4. 1/8. Then maybe I get that dog going good and decide I want some gritt so I add some bulldog to it. Etc. Most rcd are crossed dogs pit x with Another breed to add wind and leg.

  yep nothing wrong with crossing for desired traits , I.E.  my hound x cur crosses . you could get the same traits in your pure bred dogs after years and years of carefull line breeding , but why wait ?  I'm getting old and don't know how much time I got left   lol   .

I think the problem lies with culling...or lack thereof. How much does the breeder know about the lineage of the 2 dogs that are being crossed? If it's done with due diligence and with a purpose...I don't see anything wrong with it. But, then again, how many of those cross bred litters are out of "Ready" and "Handy"?

I personally don't have a reason to cross breed. I believe that I can find what I'm looking for within my chosen breed. Might just take a little longer and a little more research is all. I guess I just enjoy the challenge of finding or breeding/producing dogs that suit me and are consistent in throwing offspring that fit my requirements while staying within a specific breed.

To me when the term reinventing the wheel applies when someone is looking to create a new 'Type' of dog, not just cross to different breeds or in some cases classes of dogs. There's nothing wrong with trying something that has not been done before and evaluating the results but when one thinks that by trying one cross, they will know 100% the effectiveness of that cross and then in turn start a line of dogs or create a new breed, that's when problems arise. If a dog consistently produces pork and works for you and you wish to replicate it that's great and. But, just because a dog or in most cases a Breed of dog is physically appealing does not mean it should be crossed. If you have to ask " Do you think X and Y would make a good cross?" Then you probably shouldn't do it. I never saw a great litter originate from a cross that someone was on the fence about. The Guys that have been doing this a long time will always say when two Stellar, world class dogs are bred together "I have high hopes for this litter", because even when both parents are 100% proven and are 4 generations or more down the line of all proven parents, there's still no guarantee. Long Point Short, if it were as easy as A+B=C, there would be a lot less culls around... Most of these trial breedings are done by people who haven't hunted behind enough great dogs to have a clue what they should be duplicating anyway. Just hunt as much as you can. That will answer more questions about what type of dog you're needing than anything else.

Agree 100%.

"Another thing I don't think people realize at times is that certain, if not all breeds were created by combining breeds that were already in existence!"

Well.this is exactly why I would refer to something as reinventing. All the crossing steps, sorting, all the work has been done already by people looking for the same things.

To me that's why we have plotts, BMCs, Mountain curs, Lacys, Pitbulls, you know purebreds.. etc. Developed to do jobs by people looking for the same stuff we would be. Most people I knew/know doing crossing breedings end up trying to line breed anyway. So it is a cycle that is repeated. For me it doesn't make sense to redo work someone else already did cuz for me its extra time and money that I don't need to spend. I personally think line breeding way is faster overall. B/c hybrid vigor works one time, then it must be re created/repeated.

Its up to each person to decide what kind of time and money they want to put into their programs so its an individual choice, not a right or wrong. What's wrong for one person another person likes.

I enjoy the breeding discussion a great deal and just from reading it seems that there r just as many ideas on breeding as there r dogs. Creating a line/breed is a huge undertaking and would be more manageable if lt was a group project. It is hard to get more than 2 people to agree on anything. Jmo!

reinventing the wheel to me means this, and i think its what mrs la meant by the coyote analogy.

if someone says they are going to breed up a line of border collies that are baydogs, that to me, is reinventing the wheel. why go thru all the work, trouble, culling, breedings, and border collie searching to make a project like that work, when there are ALREADY numerous baydog breeds to select from. not only are you creating something that already exists, you are subjecting yourself to a huge amount of expense in time and labor to do it.

it's much easier to start with something that already fits the bill as a bay dog, then refine the line's characteristics to suit your intended end goal.

OWL I agree 100% with what your saying and that's my point as well. That's the same advice I gave in a different thread, but about catch dogs.

I guess I have always had crossed dogs when it comes to cur dogs.  I find I can get the best of two worlds in crossing different breeds .  I have never owned a full blooded cur dog that was a great one untill now which I got the Fla dog and to me he is great at what he does.  So I like to inject what I want in a breeding were it be nose, grit, catch, speed, staminia, brains , range and so on and so fourth.  Anybody that knocks this type of breeding is knocking it 99% of the time because of the $$$ and sales of their said breed.  I would go as far to say when it comes to these cur dogs most of the best ones I have ever seen are a mix of great breeds .  Thats not to knock any other breed its just a fact of the cur dog hunting game .

I hear you Jimmy. I'm right there with you.

As far as my personal plan, I'm not trying to re invent anything per se. My husband and I plan to produce the final product of Stag/Cat/EBT or Bulldog. We have put a lot of thought into this process, and we are very well aware that there will be culling, as with ANY breeding. I was inspired after doing research of the types of crosses the folks in OZ use. I have also spoken to folks that hunt with this type of cross over there, and they hunt the same style as my husband and I do. I see it as utilizing all the strong traits/characteristics of the aforementioned breeds and putting them into one dog. In theory these dogs will be perfect for how we want to hunt. Time will tell. As someone else mentioned, even when you're breeding "purebreds," you still have to cull through them, and not every one will turn out. Same reasons  why you see folks crossing up curs of various breeds I suppose. I'm thinking that the folks doing those crosses have goals in mind as to what each part of the cross brings to the final product. What I'm doing isn't much different.

Well the wheel aibt round enough fir me there are some bumps here and there.  I think it comes more to do with ego if it works for that person they think that os the way it should be.  That being said you need to have to stick to hunting dogs that have actually been hunted in the last 100 years lol

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Interesting topic, MrsL ....

I believe that most hunting dog breeds were originally designed with a pretty narrow job description , to work a type of stock in a particular place, or catch game in a particular way. Now we all hunt in very different types of country and the hogs we are after are different as well. One dog breed or team that is perfect in your world my be useless in mine. Most good hog dogs can find and bay or catch hogs in any country, but a keen handler will always be looking for a more efficient tool to get the job done.

I run a set of pure Catahoula bay dogs, medium range and rough as a cob, from cow dog stock. In some of my country they can't be topped. In other situations or places around here they are not that efficient.

My Catahoula, Plott crosses......same story.

My Stags......same story.

My Dogos......same story.

My Stag cross dogs....same story.

Give me any type of country and I can put together a team that will find, stop, and catch hogs efficiently. A Stag or Stag cross dog will be on that team nearly every time. You are on a productive track, the folks in OZ and many in the States have proven that. Enjoy the stag crosses you will love them. My moto.....speed kills.

Is it re-inventing the wheel? I think not, its more like changing tires to fit the terrain your driving on the most. Why use a highway tire on your hunting truck when mud grips would be more efficient?

Thanks,
Paul T

  

First, good post Paul T. Your example made a lot of sense. My response would be if your working with a good versatile strain/family of a certain breed it would be like using all purpose tires. They adapt.

Ms L my questions is..what is it that you are looking for in that combination you have that is you have not been successful in finding in the available working pure bred dogs out there?

True, but they will not be as efficient as a purpose bred animal for a particular area or type of hunting.

Crib: SPEED, nose, holding power, a dog able to withstand punishment if need be, all in ONE. If you've ever been hunting in these marshes and swamps, you'd understand why we don't want a race. Even good 'purebred' dogs are having difficulty stopping them here. We need that speed.

Mr. Paul: Great post, thank you. My sentiments exactly.

Right, it would be more utility. But it has to be useful enough to get the job done which is this case would be catchin the hog even if the hog is rank.

I'm sure, that's a tough test for any individual dog of any type.

So now my question is to the ETHD board. Is there anyone out there that has a specific breed of dog that has the tools to do this type of task with the things that she described in the terrain she descroibed and produces that in is offspring? Something that you personally own and use.. no rumors.

The type of cross we are doing, has already been proven to work very well. It's just not a common cross over here in the states is all. There's so much tradition here, that it's not the norm for people to use something that is considered different.

Why would you consider a rank hog to be any problem related to this topic?

mrs la, i think it's going to take more than a catahoula to put nose into them if the stag and bull terriers are in the mix...

Not sure what you mean.

First off I don't hunt swamps, but hunt where I don't want a race, some of my country is real rough with no vehicle access or has a couple hundred foot cliff edge.

There are several people working on and producing dogs of this type, I happen to have a couple. But I often use a team of dogs for this type of work and that team will vary a bit in composition. There is not really any question that this type of dog exists and can be reproduced.

The test, so to speak, is not that tough believe it or not.

Well, the cats that we have hunted behind, have proven well in the nose department. We've never had any complaints on the breed's ability, so we will use them. I know there's a lot of anti cat folks on here, and a lot of die hard yeller dog folks too, but we have no reason to doubt what the cat has to offer in this cross.

You'd be surprised at the sniffer ability on the stags and bulls....don't forget, they are canine after all....just because they were bred for different purposes doesn't mean their factory receptors vanish.

Hell we owned (RIP) an APBT here that for years, we took out solo.....and that dog found and caught his own hogs, on multiple occasions.

I have straight stags that wind and run their own track, its not un-common for a stag to have a tracking nose.

The job description involves catching and holding a rank boar.

i'm feeding 9 stags and 4 stag crosses.
stag blood will knock a huge dent into the nose department on your crosses.
when i make crosses i like to use something with more nose than a cur (catahoula OR blackmouth) and use it from the female side.

this is just my personal experience with them, it doesn't mean they all won't have noses.
i have some stags that i'd say have a decent nose for a sighthound, but nose is not a fixed or consistent trait in these type of dogs.

ok I didn't say holding but I do mean that also.

also, the straight stag blood i run has been "juiced up" a time or two for nose over the years, they all go back somewhere at some point to running hound blood or pointer blood that was bred in to keep them pushing a coyote track after loosing him in rough country.

also if the stag blood your using has a good dose of hotblood look for your nose inheritance to go down even more in your crosses...

not trying to be a bummer about it. just saying stag blood is good blood and a good tool in crossing as long as you know what it will bring to the table and the best way to utilize it.

OWL, what part of the country did your stag blood come from?

new mexico, and north dakota. theres dogs behind them from all over. but they were bred for rougher type country.

Thanks OWL, your right in that we would need to use Stag lines that were bred for rough or brushy country to help with the nose.

My have come from Clint Bowman in Kansas, he breeds for nose. The others from a man in Colorado who hunts horseback. The Colorado dogs have an extra shot of Deerhound and Wolf hound they are showing good nose at this time.

I run my old female from Clint at night with the Cats, she's got a good nose and will run her own hot track in the dark.

And tell me about your crosses.

MrsL, What size dogs are you looking for in your end result? Weight and height.

i keep a pair of have stag half bulldogs for catch dogs, and have a trig/stag and a pointer/stag.

the two crosses are still green, but a little staggier than i'd like at half on hogs, i'll prolly like the next generation just right putting a solid cur with a good nose over them. those pups should be right about where its at. i have had the best results doing true threeways with them.
stag/running hound, pointer, or hound with a real solid cur over the top of that...

i mainly like to keep the halfbloods around to go back into the stag side.

I love the bigger colder nosed mt curs but I like adding just a touch of stock cur to maintain a decent size and make them just a little quieter on track...but this time around it will be a touch of APBT of the leggy and game type...already have one in mind...

Well, my Stags are between 28" and 30" at the shoulder. Crossing in the other breeds of course I'm likely to lose some height. I'd at least like them to average the same height as a standard sized Catahoula would be, for comparison. Weight isn't as important to me so long as they have enough arse behind them to anchor down.

I think this is an awesome topic and I'm excited for more updates MrsL!
Owl: I'd love to hear more about your dogs! What kind of hound have you bred into your crosses?

Owl, sorry just scrolled up further!

I have heard alot of good things about the deutsche draathar as a multiple purpose game and terrain hunting dog. Could we produce a better dog if it were hunted in different terrain etc,.

son , you can't beleive everything you read  ;)

the Europeans bred a few breeds for multipurpose  dogs including the draathar...

my idea as a multipurpose dog is one like the "Iron Man Triathlete"...not the fastest and not the strongest but the best all around athlete...or like the middle linebacker on a football team...an all around athlete as well...in my minds eye that as just about how I see it...usually a little cross breeding is necessary to produce a dog of that type...or at least breed in that direction...that is the goal I shoot for...

sounds like i've heard that a time or two.  When dogs were keep for a purpose, how many people could keep 10 or 15 dogs. That dog had to.earn its keep. One or two dogs depending on the quarry . 

yessir , but that was a long time ago when them dogs were being used . and proven before they were bred .