EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I have a buddy that would like to stud out this dog.  What can you APBT experts on here tell me about the lines?
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I can't tell you anything about the front of the ped but Bango was the real deal down from Carver lines and most anything that come thu DSK was most likely a game dog. I believe the Carr and Farris dogs come from Ok.

I read something a while back that talked about brown billy Sunday. I just can't remember what it was about.


Shotgun
Arkansas

Way out west is the DSK camp the same DSK that was based outa Louisiana that produced champion Cochise and grand champion Rudy

Yes, Dead Serious. There was another DSK some time back that was wt. pullers with big fat dogs. They were Drop Squad Kennels.

I thought I recognized that bee gee dog just checking. I had some pretty tight ties with that fella through  a mutual friend. I owned a gyp that was out of DSK Atlanta that was by far one of the gamest dogs I've ever touched. In my experience there are better and worse dogs out there, if D was feeding a dog there was something to it.

DSK was out of Galveston area Brazoria County, TX area.  They bought Banjo from Coy D. for an unbelievable amount back in 1995 - 96 time for $25,000. Bill Carr was from Oklahoma and I think he was later in Hot Springs, ARK.  Most of Carr's dogs were old Tonka/Tombstone/Belveal's Buster bred dogs, but I don't know about the ones in this pedigree. The old  Carr blood were good dogs, and you find a lot of his blood in the family of dogs that R. Crabb has been breeding in Arkansas for 30 years.  Good dogs.

Banjo was old Carver / Thibodeaux stuff.  He was sired by Hoskin's Sack out of McCools Betty Jo.  His littermate sister was Gr Ch BB Red.  Banjo was a solid dog, but BB was a monster.  The two best breedings done with  BB was to MAD's GR CH Gabe and to GR CH Andy Cap.  When bred to Andy Capp, she produced a stud dog called Chop Chop that DSK had.  Chop produced a lot of good dogs.

Banjo was bred numerous times, but he wasn't a great producer, but he wasn't a piece of junk either.  I had dogs (back in the day) right off Banjo, Coachise, Chop Chop.  There are good and bad in every bloodline.  I believe Coachise had about half Norman Kemmer blood in him, which would be old Bullyson, Eli Jr blood through Kemmers Macho (aka Pushrod), but I may be wrong on that, just can't remember.  Coachise was not a great producer either, considering the number of times he was bred.  His best offspring was a dog called Richard Ramirez, but I don't think there was a significant number of good dogs off Coachise.

The pedigree on this particular dog really has no bearing on whether it will be a good "catch dog" or not.  But there are some good solid dogs in the pedigree, for whatever that's worth.         

       

Also, the dog on the bottom side DSK Diablo Negro was a real good dog.  He won his CH over Norman Kemmer.  For those who don't know, Norman was first cousin to Robert Kemmer who is the creator of the Kemmer Curs.   

To correct myself: I just noticed the date of birth on that pedigree, so this dog is 10 years old, so obviously the owner probably already knows if he was a good dog or not, so let me correct myself on that.

Your EASTTEXASHOGDOGGER source for all things APBT.  I'll be here all week, lol

Thanks for all of the responses. I enjoy learning the history behind the dogs.

So do I... good stuff.

Redriver, you know more about those Texas dogs than I do but I'm still a lil hesitant to throw guys names out there. I knew of Bill Carr as I was good friends with Orval Sneed. I did meet Jerry in Vegas years ago but knew of many of the dogs. I bred a Tonka/Bolio bitch to a son of AndyCapp and Penney Sue. Only one keeper and she is buried in my pasture. Got out of that line as they were hard keepers compared to the stuff from Crenshaw.   

Nice read there slim, the fella I know had to have been good friends or partners with the guys you speak of, I've worked on a few dogs that were tightly bred off the chop chop dog one being a son, I'm my mind he was 110% bulldog, now I can't speak for the rest of those dogs but the few I had dealings with were nice. I'm like you wayoutwest I'm not going to post any names of the folks I've had dealings with or the pedigrees of dogs I've owned or worked on but man I do enjoy reading what others know as well.

I just want to say thanks for the good/informative posts...one day I might just want to run 2 strike dogs and keep 2 catch dogs...less feed and cleanup...

i agree with ruben..... thanks so much gentlemen. im sure just stirring these memories for me is illegal here in california though,lol. lot of the guys here relating experiences and knowledge were in the deep end and i was playin in the kiddie pool though. its hard for me to realize that my only little claim to fame in this area was stoppin a sister to stevens ch homer........was 38 years ago,lol. more of what little hair i have left just turned grayer i think.

I know what you mean Gary, but it got me thinkin about another son of Andy Capp named GrCh Snaps. 51# in ripped condition and when he was in a keep he would go into warrior mode. At one point the man conditioning him was standing on his dryer with a shotgun on him in a standoff. Snaps finally calmed down and he lived to see another day. If you were going into Snaps kennel or chainspace you had to give him a kong chew or he would grab you and not let you go. Strongest dog most folks up this way had ever seen. Lost the pics I had of him in a computer crash. He was Andy Capp to Steve's Spyder

lol, i can just picture that scene in my mind. personally ive never kept any dog of any breed for long that got that wound up that it worried me. sounds like that was one serious dog and at that weight he could have been more than most men could keep off them. when i was 18  iwas walkin a female for a friend of mine and my buddy was with me walkin my male.  we were in front of the high school and stopped to talk to a guy we knew when the female kinda went after his foot. so i yanked her back by the lead and man was it on,lol. my buddy couldnt really help as he was tryin to keep my male from grabbin the female and the other guy was scared of the whole mess. when it was all over my buddy had my male  and i was standing there with one leg of my brand new courderoy pants compltely tore off of me and my knee cap and my elbow both sliced  and my pacific trail jacket tied around the females head as a muzzle, lol.

back when I was a younger man this young friend of mine owned a black brindle APBT that was one heck of a catch dog...about 60 pounds of bone and muscle...he didn't have a very good handle on that dog and I gave that dog a hard stare/glare and I was thinking if he were my dog he would have some manners...Well that dogs eyes glazed over green and all night long he didn't care about the bay...he wanted to catch me...I told ole Leroy don't turn that dog loose because I was going to have to kill it...that dog never liked me after that...but I learned a good lesson that night...

Gary, I can just see you getting a handle on her ;D

Crenshaw told me a story about one he had that if he seen another dog you had about 2 minutes to tie him to a tree cause he was gonna bite you to make you let him go.

Only time ive ever been bitten in my life was by a young bulldog. Was handling him showing him his first hog. Night time. Guess he got soooo riled up in the heat of the moment that once I broke his hold and started backing up with him....sucker turned and grabbed the first thing that was in his reach which happened to be my inner right calf right below my knee. I Had to break him off with a break stick. Never have I ever felt a pain like that in my life. I have arthritis in that knee now from it and puncture scars.

scott,im sure people driving by had a heck of a show,lol.

way, i was told at one of if not the first adba conformation show in so cal that haynes ch red ike lost his mind when he was in the park around a ton of dogs and jumped up and took hold and started shakin the crotch of his handler. blood everywhere and the guy went into shick.

mrs, all i can say is ouchhhhhhhhhh.

Good lord those early shows were something, nobody knew a thing. Bert Sorrells pulled a knife and made things interesting at one of the early shows in Ca.. At one of the early pulls in Ok. some guy whipped out a starter pistol and started firing at his dog to get him to pull! People were flying all over not knowin it was blanks!

http://www.gamedogshistory.com
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The link above seems to have a lot of good history on the APBT and the Old School Fast Lane guys.

way, did you know the goodmans?

I know im cutting in but are you referring to FFC?

not cuttin in at all, i was referring to patti and clarence goodman in so cal.

Yes I did Gary, good folks. Haven't seen them in a good number of years.

yes they sure were way. i met them at a couple of american bulldog shows. casey couturier owned the registry and he was friends with them and though patti would make a good conformation judge even though she had never woned american bulldogs. my dogs did well under her as i wasnt known for having big abs but did show some very correctly structured dogs.
they related some totally crazy stories about the first calif adba shows as you said. i think they said sorrels knocked some guy out while judging and at another show some crazy woman took after a judge with a knife and at one show a group of black fanciers put up a big tent/sun shade in the back of the parkin lot and were rollin dogs durin the show,lol.

we were at a ambull show in vegas and our daughter was handeling a big dog aggresive male i had named buster. well,buster and another male almsot got it on as they llunged and both dogs were up on hind legs and almost grabbed each other. now both these dogs went 100  pounds and my teenage daughter didnt weigh 100. man i jumped outta my lawn chair and was headin into the ring when clarence calmly reached up while sittin in his chair and put his hand on my shoulder and quietly and calmy said trust her dad shes gonna be ok. and she was and it ended fine lol.

shotgun, that is a informative site, thanks

I can see Clarence doing that, it took some doing to rile him. Did you ever know Bishop Hilliard? Real good fella out of Porterville. I went to my first show down there in 84 in Madeira and on Sat morn. someone asked me to wake up Mary S. who was sleeping in a lawn chair outside an Rv. I walked up and said her name and before her eyes even opened a lil 38 come poking out from under the blanket.

lol, sounds like how i met both sets of my wifes grandparents. i didnt know mr. hilliard just knew of the name. did you know dennis ruth who was partners with curtis m. he was so nuts that he was banned from our rooster deals down here.

No I never knew Dennis. Sure were some different times than now!

yes times were absolutely different .dennis owned a gimp legged dog named dagan and also owned patricks kramer at one time. patricks spent his short time in oregon with all his dogs at dennis place just south of grants pass.

My late buddy Keith Williams would have known him I'm sure. He grew up down there.

Hey Wayout what blood are you running now?

I'm down to 3 dogs and my old male is Jeep/Redboy Rascal, I have a nephew of his where I bred a sis of my old boy to a dog named Musket that was bred by LG and pretty much Lil Man/MissKim breeding. My current catchdog prospect is off Reatj's bitch and T-dog male which are strictly line bred for size and catch. You wouldn't recognize anything in the first 5 gens. Performance in the woods was the only thing that mattered for the last 20 yrs. I hope he lives up to the hype I have built up around him! Haha Thomas has let the paperwork drop off but they have come from ADBA stock. The Carver/JRR cross might have made a catchdog but he got his teeth yanked out on a hog 2 yrs ago. I like him so he has a home here. The old guy is 11 and is my last real tie to what I have been breeding my whole adult life.

Joel I hope he works out, his sister is pretty tight wound when the bay starts.  It's going to take a while before I can take her to a bay off lead.  Big momma is a 2005 model


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I am really interested in that old carver stuff! I was thinking about picking some up, I have never had any. I only have a few dogs too right now, but I am reloading  ;D Right now I have some real nice Mayday/Buck Directly off some Ch's. But I am in the process of picking up some old Mexican Eli.

Good luck with your new catchdog prospect, I have read about T-dog's male sounds like a great one so your chances are good!