EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I am just in awe, after watching this news story, and that officer's chest cam. I'm speechless.
What was he thinking? This should have been handled SO so differently. This is in no way a bash LEO post....I have family members that are in Law Enforcement. I respect their jobs, but this incident right here.....is just, sad. Deadly force was VERY MUCH uncalled for in this incident.....

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/cops-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-man/vi-BBioQd0?ocid=mailsignout

So many thins come to mind, however ill only make one point and ask three  questions.

1:  after all five (5) CNN anchors that were on at the time said on national tv that they stood with the protestors in both the furgeson and Ny deals and then all put their hands up I lost the little respect I had for them as "news" reporters.

Now for the questions,

Have you shown this video to your family who are in law enforcement? 
What was their take? 
Have any of them ever been attacked with a weapon?  (Yes a screwdriver can be a weapon)

 I Understand that a screw driver can be a weapon. I didn't dispute that. What I am questioning, is being these officers had training in dealing with the mentally ill,  knowing the man was mentally ill, why in a matter of seconds the situation went straight to five shots that mortally wounded the man.....the man who was lying face down in his blood dying (whom they also handcuffed), and didn't immediately call for EMS. I've sent the videos to said  family members and am awaiting their insight for what it's worth. I obviously was not there, but I know what I saw on that video from the officers chest cam.
Again.........
I am NOT bashing LEO, I am simply questioning the way this particular incident was handled.

miraculously the other officer's cam crapped out just before the shooting. with only that 1 cam working, it didn't show the guy "attacking" the officers. i personally don't think that was a clean shoot. at least 1 officer had a taser. so why did he not draw that instead of their weapons? i agree, it could have been handled differently. and this may be another reason why the feds are testing a new federal police force in the dfw area. ft worth agreed to receive funding from the government and be 1 of 6 other cities fielding federally activated police force.

putting myself in their shoes, both could have stepped back, 1 drawing his service peace and the other drawing his tazer. the tare could have been deployed before using deadly force. again, the only cam working didn't show the guy attacking, just the guy falling forward after being shot.


iv never been attacked with a screwdriver, but been attacked with a firearm, and i did return fire. a firearm or knife is much different than a blunt hand tool, which takes a lot more force and effort to cause lethal harm than a knife firearm.

 I'm sure its department discretion as to the level of "attack" for the officer/s to up the level of force, and left to the offices discretion, which i agree with. it should be left to the department and officer/s discretion to escalate the usage of force. but again, just from the cam, that specific incident could have been handled a little better, and dispatch should have provided them with more info, OR the communist news network should have provided a more in-depth/accurate description of the call from the hm owner to dispatch and dispatch to the officer. but as with most so called news reporting a-holes, they only show/tell what they want and what will get more ratings.

From what I seen that is murder and the cops should be charged

I want to know why in the devil any city would agree to a federal police force in their city. There are enough federal agencies now. Why do our streets need patrolled by a federal police force. I'm not a doomsdayer but that makes me very concerned.


Shotgun
Arkansas

I am not trash talking any officer's/deputies either. I have lots of friends and family that are in some sort of law enforcement. But there are tons and tons of videos online where i think to myself , "is this a bad / dangerous situation? " yep. "Did this person deserve to die? " hell no. I totally support the law and the folks enforcing it. God knows without them this would be a hell of a bad place to live. But i think there should be alot stricter restrictions as to when "deadly force" can be used. Like it was stated above. Deploy the taser first. And until the subject is endangering yours or someone elses life i simply dont think the use of deadly force can be justified. Now if someone "rushes" you and gets pretty dang close with the weapon then maybe its time to shoot. But i would have to take some leg shots first. I know alot of places teach that if the trigger is pulled its center mass or shoot to kill and all that. But i dont think it should be that way. Just as an example... if a fella rushes me with a screw driver in his hand , and ive already got a 40 caliber hand gun pointed in his direction i would be willing to bet a years pay that i would be able to take his legs out before he was able to get to me. Simple as that. Now you would have to be able to think clear enough to be able to know when the subject was to close and then comes the kill shots. I cant help but think about peoples families and things like that. I've never been in a situation like that and i pray that i never am. Even though i know for a fact i could take a life if i had to. It would ABSOLUTELY have to be the end of the line, last straw , bottom line , me or you type of situation. I'll shoot for the legs and maybe a gut shot and hope the medics can save your life when they get there, before i try to kill ya. Now a person with a gun is a totally different ball game. If the gun ever gets pointed in the wrong direction.... its over with. I didn't mean to ramble and go off track but i think sometimes people die for no reason.

I understand completely...don't make an advancement at a law enforcement officer giving you orders, especially when you have a weapon in your hand. Now Georgia, you would bet some money, but would you bet your life? Also, I seriously doubt they are trained to aim anywhere other than center mass. It would create another hazard with stray rounds considering you would be aiming at a 2-3 inch diameter moving target compared to a 12". It is not my concern to say "right" or "wrong", but I wouldn't risk my life on an individual with a weapon and unknown intentions.

The way i read it, the city police would be federalized, they would be the federal police force. Ill find the link n post it

i never said anybody or any agency was trained to shoot anywhere but center mass. In fact i said thats where there trained to shoot at. All im saying is if the situatuon is right and a person can eliminate the threat without ending someones life it should be done that way. Now if theres a day care in the background and you cant afford to take some shots at the legs then that calls for a different action. But thats why i also said a man/woman should be able to think clear enough to make that decsion. If they cant think clear enough to make the right decision in situations they dont need to be out in the publice with a gun. That should be part of there training. And no i would never bet my life or anyone elses. Thats why i said you'd have to be smart enough to know when the person is to close. Then make your kill shots. The bottom line is you cant walk or run without your legs. If you have a screw driver , knife , stick, rock, or anything other than a gun i bet you wont get close to me before you hit the ground. STILL BREATHING

Everything is easier said than done no matter what training an individual has had. I have never served in civilian law enforcement, but I have been on a combat deployment and involved in some extremely delicate situations with "civilians" or "non combatants" the press likes to call them. More than too many times, there were situations when my mind did not agree with the rules of engagement and extensive amount of training. In a split second, life or death decisions have to be made and it is never easy....not the first time and not the last time. I think the same applies everywhere, whether it is law enforcement, a person defending themselves or their public property, or a security guard at the school trying to do a job. I'm glad he had the body camera on so we can give our opinions honestly with the details in the open. It makes it much easier to give an honest opinion instead of having to depend on undependable media or other forms of information. Please remember, this is all a personal opinion and I am not saying any other opinions are wrong. Sorry for the novel or any spelling errors....big fingers little phone. lol

Shotgun, I'm with you! I see no reason that the feds come in and take over policing in city jurisdictions. It's one thing during a riot or a natural disaster but giving the feds control over day to day policing is BS. There are many issues I have with that! As far as this police shooting, I feel a lot of LEO's are blazing away way too quickly anymore. I understand that you think your life is at stake on every confrontation but some of the fellows doin this job are ill prepared in the quick thinking department. It's easier to blaze away and then say what you need to say to justify it. No offense to the LEO's who do there job with professionalism and good judgment but they are not all like that!

Hahaha knew all this was coming.  Bunch of people whi have never done the job miraculously know how from watching a video.  Go to the academy, train and put your a$$ on the line.  Then critique.  Because no doubt about it, crazy man less than 10 feet away with a screwdriver?  Every damn one of ya woulda done the same. 

Some cops are cool. Most not so much. Feel bad for all involved.  But hay lets film everything and see who a freek or not....im definitely a ass hole

So it's ok if the police show up to your house and shoot you because you have a screw driver in your hand. There was two men against a mentally challenged person who could have been handled different . I'm tired of hearing people say you don't know how hard my job is if you are a coward the be a police officer is probably not a good choose

Yeah it is, especially when you charge them with it.. 

quote author=Curcross1987 link=topic=90030.msg525954#msg525954 date=1426792905]
 There was two men against a mentally challenged person who could have been handled different .
[/quote]

Ummm.. Paranoid schizophrenia is not exactly down syndrome.  It makes people extremely violent and aggressive.  but hey you probably took the CIT classes too so you already knew that.


And what exactly do you do to contribute to your fellow man???  Why not go to the academy?  Scared, felon?  what? 

Speaking for myself, I actually earned my degree in Criminal Justice because when I was younger, I aspired to be a Law Enforcement Officer. My goal was to work with a K9.
I went on plenty of ride alongs, had good mentors. Good guys.
Reason I am not a respectable LEO today is because of my unfortunate debilitating back problem.  Couldn't pass a physical. So I became a Vet Tech. I understand the whole brotherhood mentality, sticking up for each other come hell or high water, but each incident is its own, and circumstances vary. There's good folks out there, and bad folks out there, some don't wear uniforms, some do. In this particular incident, from what I can see from the video footage, how it was handled, was in my opinion uncalled for. We are all entitled to voice our opinions and draw conclusions from what we see. Obviously not every human is perfect, none in fact, So it surely is possible for someone wearing a uniform to make a poor decision. We've all made poor decisions in our lifetimes.

Ummm.. Paranoid schizophrenia is not exactly down syndrome.  It makes people extremely violent and


aggressive.  but hey you probably took the CIT classes too so you already knew that.


It don't pay enough for me and I probably would make a bad cop cause I don't do good with stupid crap but if you are going to do a job do it right


And what exactly do you do to contribute to your fellow man???  Why not go to the academy?  Scared, felon?  what? 
[/quote]

No offense to you or your criminal justice degree, i have one too.  My sister has a masters in criminal justice.  You do know that degree is wortgless as tits on a boar hog right?  It isnt even close to what tge real world is.  Now with that being said, who is more than likely better versed in force on force?  A police officer who has to know state law, fed law and case law, or..... A vet tech with a criminal justuce degree?

Now add the fact the liberal ass hats at cnn probably deleted the other officers canera footage from theur brodcast because it didnt fut their agenda.  But lets cover wgat we did see.....

1st man wuth screw driver INSIDE front door. 
2nd cops yell drop it.
3rd you see same armed man shot aprox 2-3 feet outside front door.

So let us as reasonable humans surmise this, the man advanced (since we dont have the other video, we dint know if he walked ran crawled it skipped. But he cane forward.). Towardsthe officers armed.  There fore the officers did what??  They defended themselves.  Now coulle other things.  How narrow was the walkway?  They turned sideways to get through.  Where was the car parked?  Against the garage.  Where did mon immediately go?  Behind the officers for protection. 

im not supporting anyone, however this video and a little commib sense tells me its probably a good shoot.  However id be willing to bed the other officers film proves it and thats why liberal cnn didnt show it. 

Sorry bout the typos.  Hate typing on a phone.

[/quote]

Doesnt pay enough?  But its such an easy job, its almost like stealing!  Dont have to rish your life or nothing!!  Its no where near as dangerous as being a monday morning quaterback!!!

You're right. I'm just a silly ol' vet tech with a worthless degree and no common sense. What was I thinking, having an opinion that opposed the officer in this incident. How dare I.

My mistake.

I may not be a LEO but I do have a da*n brain and some pretty good common sense too. My opinion still doesn't change.
I'm entitled to my OPINION JUST as you are yours. I can express mine without belittling others who aren't on the same page.

police officers are like any other profession...20% above average, 60% in the mid range and 20% below...I know hindsight is 20/20 but I am pretty cool in emergency situations and do my best thinking then...but these officers did not have a plan other than draw and shoot to kill...a screw driver is a deadly weapon with someone strong with intent to kill...but only at close range...seems to me one of the cops should of taken the lead and said I Taser and you back me up with the gun if he doesn't go down and he is coming at us...

I have known some mentally ill folks that the parents have had their hands tied because they could not commit their son or daughter because they are of legal age of 18 or older...the mentally challenged person can not make the right decision because of their mental illness...yet the parents can not make it for them even though they should...that law came about because a rich man in the late 1800's had his wife committed even though she was completely sane...so they created a law that has hurt many many folks...it would be nice to have that law changed...sometimes someone could be committed for the wrong reasons but the system if set up correctly could identify those situations and be fixed so that it won't happen...

in this case the mother called because her son was probably having a relapse and all she probably wanted was to have her son committed...it is heartbreaking to see the mother crying out in agony...what if it were your son or daughter???   

Pretty sure I prefaced that with I have the same degree.  Secondly I was only using the vet tech/leo reference to show how a view changes with a specialty.  I wouldn't second guess your line of work or tell you you murdered a dog during surgery.  It was an example.

As far as the common sense goes, I was pointing things out in the video you may or may not have noticed.  When you've walked up to as many doors as I have not knowing whats on the other side you take notice of those things.

You and everyone else are ABSOLUTELY entitled to your opinions and certainly no one can change them.  however speaking on behalf of the citizenry that risks its ass to protect you while you voice that opinion, I would appreciate it if you would please refrain from telling us how to do our jobs, and bashing us about something you have NO clue about.

Now if a man attacks you with whatever weapon he has, and you decide to give him flowers, stun him, shoot him in the leg etc. that too is your right.  The leos I know and work with, we have a motto.  I GO HOME!

 No disrespect meant, however your posts pretty much said those two officers (who were cleared of any wrong doing and the incident was determined a good shoot by the way) murdered that man.  Oh and did you know the video was released by the man's family as part of their federal rights violation lawsuit in an attempt to bring about another show of support like they did in furgeson?  

The family actually said he couldn't do much damage with that screw driver because "it was a small one like the ones used for computers and stuff".  

just food for thought.  But yes you are entitled to your opinion, and heres the kicker.  call 911 and we still come.

Ill get off my soap box now.

rd, that is another reason why the federal police task force is being tried out, that fergeson bull crap. and now this shooting in discussion. how many yrs does it take for #2 headed people to get it together, I mean come on, 165 yrs and still no different, even with millions of $$$$ up for grabs. they want get publicized, try doing something with their lives that will have a positive impact on the world, not just their pocket book

Myself and my weapon ARE my 911.
You did say you had the same degree, but then proceeded to tell me that it was worthless as tits on a boar hog, lol. Basically indicating that it was meaningless.
I was giving extra insight on my background, trying to make the point that I'm not just another "cop basher". I was expressing my disgust in this particular incident. I know a couple other LEO's on other forums and I know there's a strong brotherhood mentality in place. However, do you not recognize, that yourself and your fellow officers are indeed human behind that badge? Are you saying that officers can never make a poor judgement call? Are you saying poor judgement calls never happen?

As far as this particular incident goes, we just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

Charles I disagree with having a federal police force. to me that's nothing more than martial law.  I will say this.  I will say it very bluntly so there is no mistaking what im saying.

Ive been an officer for ten years.  in that ten years, ive been shot at twice, once by a man with an uzi in a small home, right after he murdered his brother.  Ya know, maybe all the bull spit was right, I probably should have tazered him while he was shootin at me...  Hmm what do you think about that one?  I mean they gave me a congressional medal for protecting his mother and my coworkers but hey whats that mean? Trial by social media is much more effective.

ive also been attacked once, 7 minutes with a "mentally ill person" who was self medicating as "mentally ill" people do.  Only he was using morphine.  I suffered a concussion, two black eyes and welts to my head, as well as being stabbed with my own badge, and not the needle that holds it to your shirt, as well as a whole list of other number 2.  

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but most of the commenters on this post have no f---king clue what its like to do this job, or live with what you have to see and deal with..  But ohhhhh can they Monday morning quarterback the hell out of it.

Fine how is this.  MY degree in criminal justice is WORTHLESS.. Better?  And yes cops make mistakes.  This WAS NOT ONE OF THEM.  Here lets try one more experiment.  NO offense intended, I promise.  This one will show the difference in peoples perceptions based on their life experience. Kinda like no two people see the same thing. 

I read this to a few coworkers:
 

There automatic response was, oh great a no it all that couldn't do the job.  I cant tell you how many curb side lawyers have their criminal justice degrees.

Then I read this:


Now I don't know you and i wont insinuate anything negative about you, however their immediate response was not a polite or nice one. 

The reason i mention this is it shows how people view thins differently based on life experiences.  Im happy you have the luxury to view thins as happy and full of nice people.  Im also happy you can be surprised and outraged when you see violence on the news.  bet you didn't know it but most cops are so used to violence and the negative in people that nothing surprises us  anymore.

Rd, i whole heartedly agree with the police force, the begining of martial law and has no place in this country. Now, as for cqb with that uzi, 3 shots, 2 in the chest and 1 in the head for good messure. I would classify that uzi incident as no different than soldiers on the battle field, and been in that shoe before, having to supress the incoming rounds to protect myself, the pilots and fellow crew members and our 30 pax.

there are a lot of good cops out there...and most probably would not have shot that man...if the job is making a cop so nervous that they want to shoot for any little reason then I think it is time for them to seek a different line of work...

One last question mrslousiana then im done with the subject.

You mention you and your weapon are 911, all things being equal, If someone attacked you with a weapon how dead would they  be?  

That being said though, I sincerely hope you are never put into that position.

reuben I hate to say it, but anyting less than 21 feet with a weapon is a gun day all day long.  Screw him.  We go home!

That 21 foot rule was what we were taught in the military. A person can cover 21 feet in less than 2sec and in those 2 sec, a person has to decide and react.

Ugh. No where did I say that an officer SHOULDN'T defend themselves. Of COURSE if you have someone aiming a gun at you, you'd have no choice but to take them out, use deadly force. What I disagreed with here was that it wasn't a gun nor a knife/machete or something of the like. As someone else also mentioned, one of the officers could have tasered the guy and dropped him, and if for some reason taser didn't knock him on his arse immediately, and he was advancing  towards the officer to where he couldn't be taken down some other way, then by all means, go that route of deadly force.

Yes yes yes........I'm sure you do encounter some extreme piece of crap nutty drugged up uncooperative crazies. Part of the job is it not? The job that you CHOSE to do?

You don't have to have any special training to see something for what it is. I didn't go through the police academy, but I have two eyes and a pretty decent head on my shoulders, and I don't think I'm being outrageous here.

"If someone attacked me with a weapon, how dead would they be?"

Well, if I'm in a situation where I feel my life is legitimately in danger, and I was actually being attacked as you say, I'd shoot the sucker in the crotch, take his weapon, then call you guys to come pick him up. If it were a mental person holding a screwdriver, and I told him to back off, and he kept stepping towards me, I'd shoot him in the knee caps and render him immobile, then call you guys to come pick him up I suppose.

But in all seriousness, that's a vague question. So many circumstances would change they way said situation would be handled. Am in out in public? Am I on my private property? Am I an officer with or without back up?

And......you said you read portions of my post to some of your co workers.....fellow officers.....
Am I supposed to be surprised that they too totally disagreed with my opposition? I mean really?

Again you picked out about how I mentioned my degree. That was not brought up with the intent of me trying to prove I'm a "know it all" by any means. It was part of my explanation which lead up to my point that before anyone such as yourself got defensive immediately, I wanted to share that I am not just another "know it all cop basher." But it's very obvious that that went way over your head.

Glad you found my opinions intriguing enough to share with your coworkers. Even if it was just for mockery.

I just hope y'all remember, you guys are all human beings. No better than anyone else who doesn't wear a badge. Protect and serve, ENFORCE the law......not act as though you are above the law.

All in all, do I respect the job itself that Leo's do? Yes. I most certainly do.
But no one forces you to do that job, it is a choice.

I for one am glad that I can execute my personal opinion on something, without picking others apart who do not agree in attempt to render their thoughts and opinions null.

mrsla, i don't know what the laws are in la, and more than likely don't know the full law here in texas, but going from what more than 10 police and sheriff deputies have told me. shooting and wounding them is setting yourself (speak in the their words, not directing the "yourself" towards you or anyone else) up for a civil law suit, in which in some instances, the criminal has won. again, their words, you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to stop, which means center mass and continue till all movement/threat has been eliminated. i was even told that by a co-worker last wk, who did 7yrs as a state trooper here in oregon, in which he was put into a tested situation with paint rounds, and the attacker (another trooper) had emptied his 6 shooter, and my co-worker gut shot him and stopped firing because he knew the guy was down, was basically an unarmed suspect, even though he had a gun, it was empty. the instructors ask him why he stopped shooting and he said, the guy was out of ammo, mortally wounded and posed no threat. the scenario was run again, but the attacker was given a glock and 2 extra mags with paint rounds. he fired, emptying 1 clip, was reloading and my co-worker proceeded to empty his clip into the suspect. in both scenarios, the threat was stopped, but both times was with fatal, or mortal wounds, and he was told, next time, don't stop firing till the threat is no more, even though he knew there was no more bullets in the revolver, his department policy was to stop "kill" the threat, not wound the threat. it opens the officer, department and in our case ourselves up for a civil law suit if the criminal lived.
MY opinion is, not to wound and call 911, but to STOP, call 911 and ask for a coroner to show up too. i too, like rd, wanna go home, not et my home sold out from under me to pay the medical bills and give the criminal my money bc i wounded him/her and they lived to cry about it. to each our own though.

wait, what i meant it to read was, i whole heatedly agree that the federal police force is the beginning of martial law, NOT that i agree with the feds enacting and utilizing the force. 

I wasn't going to chime in but couldn't watch and not play any more. When I got out of the army I went to the police academy and was on the force. Second day on the job pull over a dwi offender. He gets crazy slaps my training officer so I snot locked him and drug his face across the black top I thought this was a good thing. Well it was good I got the fella off my training officer but I was told that I went to far with force. I figured right there this was not the job for me cuz I would hurt some one or get hurt my self. Could these matters ended with a better result yes but we are not that person and don't know the level of fear he faced. Do I agree with him shooting not really this is why they made pepper spray and taz ers but if the shooting is justified so be it

So your telling me if a cop gets with in 21 feet I'm good to take him down with a shot to the face or is that only for police officers after the walk to his door you are a joke

Chances are a cop standing 21st from you with a knife is not running at you with unknown intentions. That was a pretty poorly thought out response. If your walking down the street and a thug/unknown individual is coming at you from 21ft better hope your armed and can draw quick enough to shoot before your the one in the obituaries

seems like there are a few in the system wearing the badge who think they are above the law...a license to kill...there are lots of good cops out there...the few that are looking for an excuse to kill need to be weeded out...

I think it boils down to last defense and first defense. If you are scared or not totally sure of what you can and can't handle then deadly force is first if you are sure of your self but not overly confident then deadly force might come last defense

There is a thing called use of force chart that tells a cop what level of force he or she can use. It tells you when  to use deadly force.  Deadly force also has a definition. Cops are not trained to shoot to kill.  They are trained to stop the threat.  That is one reason cops are not being charged in a crime for what a lot of civilians call an abuse of force. Deadly force is not defined by the weapon or item or tool of choice. It is defined by the damage that can be done.

Talking about shot placement is crazy. First officers are trained to shoot center mass. officers can not decid if anyone is dead or decide  if someone is mental. Cops train in shooting simulators and it it is very hard to hit small targets,  such as knees, crotches, elbows, etc.

He said 21 feet with a weapon so you know any cops with out weapons your response was pretty poor thought out

I know some older cops are decent people but city/county cops by in large are just glorified firefighters. Dorks from high school. Every cop I have ever met does nothing but brag about hurting people when you get to know them. I just read a comment that said something about crystals degree and avocation not being good enough to pass judgement on barney fife. that kinda attitude is exactly why most people don't like cops.I can tell you have a horrible attitude. Sometimes a person can get tunnel vision when they are to close to the situation and someone not as experienced at fbi stuff but more objective can see the situation more clearly.I'm sure screw driver guy made many bad choices in his life leading him to that point but there are an awful lot of cops that  do not have any sense what so ever.   

I watched it a couple more times and i think the guy came after him.

I dont think i would have done what he did though it was real crappy not to help him. he should be fired for that. especially the comment about him still being alive.