EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

LEARNING IN THE WOMB…
Life Before Birth: How Experience in the Womb
Can Affect Our Lives Forever
Arthur Janov, Ph.D.

the importance of healing prenatal imprints to more clearly see their
widespread cumulative and enduring effects. “It means that how the birth trauma is
played out, and reacted to, depends on earlier life circumstances—womb-life.”

“New Agey.” Now, there are literally hundreds of studies verifying this
proposition. There seems to be little question now that a pregnant
woman’s mood and physiology can produce long-term effects on the
offspring.

Epigenetics: The Inheritance of Acquired Characteristics
There is something we must add to the theoretical mix: epigenetics,
or said other way, how very early events in the womb and at birth can
alter the genetic unfolding. One genotype, a single genetic
predisposition, can give rise to many phenotypes depending on what
happens to those genes during gestation. So what we might imagine is
genetic, is genetic-plus what happens to us in the womb.
What Lamarck said was that individuals acquire
characteristics as a result of their environment, and now, these
characteristics can be passed on to the offspring.
Much of the research work in epigenetics has to do with diet; a
mother’s diet influences the offspring’s physiology. Epigenetics has to
do with how genes are regulated and influenced by the experience of
the baby. I believe it has more to do with the fetus who resides in the
womb; that his experience is influenced forevermore by the mother’s
diet but also by her moods, her anxiety and depression.
What we are discussing is how a mother’s interaction with her environment can
pass this on to her offspring. I think we need to understand that a
fetus in the womb is always trying to adapt to his environment and
that his genes will evolve and be expressed depending on that
adaptation.  For example, a mother who is anxious and who has
depleted much of her serotonin supplies cannot fulfill the young fetal
need for his own serotonin supplies (fully discussed in a moment). He
may well grow up deficient in inhibitory or repressive capacities and
be an anxiety/impulsive case forevermore; this can evolve into
attention deficit in his youth. There may be a continued inability to
have a cohesive cognitive ability. I think it is important that all this
occurs while the fetal brain is rapidly developing and needs proper
input to evolve normally.
________________________________________
Journal of Prenatal and Perinatal Psychology and Health
To get an idea of how early all this may begin, there is a study by
the University of Miami School of Medicine that states that: “A review
on (maternal) prenatal depression effects on the fetus and newborn
suggests that fetal activity is elevated, growth is delayed, low birth
weight common.” (Diego, et al., 2009, p. 70)
Newborns of a depressed mother show a profile that mimics the
mother’s prenatal state, including her physiologic state. This includes
higher stress hormone levels, lower levels of dopamine and serotonin,
and greater right frontal brain activity.
I have discussed the notion of the “critical window” in my other
works; it simply refers to a time in life when needs must be fulfilled,
and at no other time. We can hug a child all day at age ten but it will
not erase the lack of touch for the first 4 months of life which seriously
deregulated the whole system and left a legacy of internally imprinted
pain, a pain for which one must constantly take pain-killers. And it
remains a mystery to the loving adoptive parents who took the child
from an orphanage at the age of twelve weeks.
There is no way to make up for that kind of early loss except by
going back to relive the original trauma. There is no way to “make up
for” this deficit, as much as we might want to. It is set in altered
biologic set points.
National Academy of Sciences, Jan. 26, 2009) that demonstrates how
early stress impacts the immune system. Children who had an abusive
early life or had spent time in an orphanage showed a compromised
immune system. Even after they were taken out of an adverse
environment there was still this damage apparent. The scientists point
out that though the immune cells are ready at birth, how they develop
and become a dependable cohesive system depends on experience.
So much happens to us in the womb; so much as been ignored in
terms of their long-term effects that many diseases remain a mystery
because we are looking at the wrong place at the wrong time with the
wrong tools. What I am learning is that events in the womb explain so
much about later life. As already noted, if you bend an emerging twig
you are bound to get a distorted tree.
The question has always been, “How early is early?” This is where
epigenetics is relevant. A group at Washington State University (led by
________________________________________

Arthur Janov

Matthew Amway) found that gestational experience in animals that
sways the genetic unfolding can show effects for three generations.
They found that exposing pregnant adult rats with defective sperm
could engender many diseases including cancer in adult animals.



What conventional
therapy does with medication is use it to block and suppress feelings,
a very different approach.
Let us not abandon the past in an effort to modernize current
practice. Memory is medicine. Let us not eschew critical medicine in
order to cure our afflictions.
In sum, there is a qualitative difference between events that
________________________________________
Journal of Prenatal and Perinatal Psychology and Health
happened to us while being carried in mother’s womb, and those
events that happened after birth. It is a matter of irreversibility.  What
happens to us during gestation imprints a now-print memory that
endures as if that were our genetic legacy. The physiology and later
psychology revolve around this imprint.  There are little or no
compensating mechanisms that will right the ship. It adjusts to the
imbalance and goes on from there. If the imprint includes a general
passivity then the vital signs, temperature and blood pressure will
accommodate themselves to this new state.  After birth there is often
the possibility to correct the imbalance. So, accommodations, which the
body makes while we are in the womb, take on a genetic focus because
it seems to occur so early in life and remains such a force.
Thus far we have been talking to the non-verbal brain! This brain
is one that contains our history, our pain and our feelings, and
ultimately, the one that can finally liberate us. We need to speak that
language—one without words. We have to convince the brain that
spouts words and ideas that it is necessary to go back to early life and
relive—that lack of love—feelings that were too much to feel at the
time. We have to convince that thinking brain to let go, let the lower
brain systems emerge and breathe the air of freedom. It can be done.
A cure is possible.

I have been interested in this subject for a good while now and have wrote about it on here in the past. I copied some parts from a long article...

Makes you rethink how we care for newborns


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I told a story on here several years ago about a 4 year old kid...my grandson comes running in the house and says caden is eating the red peppers outside from my birds eye plants...I did not believe it so I said show me...and he goes out and picks about ten peppers comes in and pops them in his mouth and starts chewing...no red face and no tears...he opened his mouth and showed me...his mouth was full of red pepper and seeds...
I couldn't wait to speak to his mom...she said he started eating peppers at under 2 years when he reached for a jalapeño from his high chair...turns out right when she got pregnant she started craving fresh jalapeño peppers and she ate quite a few...I just wish I could have videoed that scene...

Yes indeed lief...I see this topic as taking it to the next level...I wish I knew  38 years ago what I know now...

But...I am Leading this topic towards the making of a hunting dog...

This is something that intrigues me, as of now I believe in it, I've always wondered how fish(salmon) can be hatched in a river, washed down to the ocean, spend their lives there and then know how to swim back to the very same waters where they were hatched and repeat the cycle and die, never learning from an older fish.

So Rueben what ways would you apply this to hog doggin, besides hunting a pregnant female or letting her in a bay pen


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I'm not Rueben but I'll give my answer if it matters. What I get out of it to try and breed two animals that have really really proven themselves, and to give her some sort of stimulation while pregnant, wether it be hunting or in a pen, I'm going to work the next gyp I have bred in a baypen just to play around with this .

I believe Goose said all I was going to say about it other than feed her some raw pork every now and then while pregnant...Also when the pups are 5 or 6 weeks old skip the morning feeding and throw a raw pig head out in the yard instead and turn the pups loose and they will devour the neck meat...just putting pig in their minds...just little things here and there in hopes of making better hog dogs...

Brain development is something I did a lot of reading and am currently in the process of testing a few of the theory's I've read about now with a litter of pups I have on the ground.

Yes...at 6 weeks I have the pups coming/running towards gunfire...I also test for natural winding from 6 to 8 weeks as well as finding...I use most any kind of meat chunks to do so...I am exposing the pups to different scenarios but am interested on selecting pups for hunting potential and natural ability...natural ability begets more natural ability in a breeding program...

That's the core of my breeding program, it's still fairly new but every dog I'm hunting I've started everyone and they were all naturals, yes they needed some correcting and pushing one way or another but for the most part, Mother Nature took over, after spending many years and countless hours trying to make apple juice using lemons I found that it's easier to make apple juice when you start with apples. I have to many domestic responsibilities to have to do mock hunt after mock hunt or day after day in a baypen.

Another thing I'm watching is, I gave my friend a pair of pups I bred up, these are pretty tight bred within this family, he started his on nothing but hogs and i started mine on cows first, mine will bay the hide off a hog but his have more grit than mine, our future plans are to cross these gyps back into this line, I'm curious to see if the pups from his gyps are grittier than the pups off my gyp, being as each set of siblings were brought up in different settings, and were exposed to different animals at young ages, his would bay tighter than mine at a younger age but mine would circle bay way better at the same age his were baying, they're all litter mates but were exposed to different things growing up.

Sounds good, I always give pups some pig parts to gnaw on, maybe I should give them the part I want them to bite, like the ears or head instead of feet, I'm going to wind up with a bunch of ankle biters lol


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If I trow a pig head in my yard my pup will just bark at it till I cut it up

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I wanted to bring this back to the top...as I read more about epigenetics this article makes a lot of sense as to what it is saying...this leads to more understanding as to how cells and genes and DNA work and not work...

none of the above is new...what is new is that we are taking it to a higher level of understanding....because of this new level of understanding...we can improve health with better treatments, better upbringing such as exposures to certain conditions, and staying clear of the wrong things to do....and creating better hunting dogs...

doing the right things at the right times with pups is key to having better dogs...

these things seem minimal but they are really big things in the development of the pup....

Example;

over a few days teach the pups to like wild pork for treats...the key is to do it when they are very hungry...hungry makes them really want it and it is logged in the memory...epigenetics tells us there will be changes made around the DNA and the cells will make adjustments...all positive...

if creating the scenario mentioned above when the pups have just had their fill of food in the morning (I always try to make these exposures/training in the early morning), they will not be interested or as interested in what I am trying to instill in the pups...

doing what I believe is the best way is the setup for the next training session...

once they like the pork I then scatter it in the yard to identify the individual pups styles of winding. hunting and finding...I look for those that require little to no guidance on account I am looking for natural ability...the pup that has his nose in the wind...this pup comes alive when the gat opens and rolls forth as I hiss the pups on with encouragement...the pup that finds the most pieces usually makes the better strike dog one day...

many of us have been practicing epigenetics while the science was in it's infancy and maybe before it had a name...

I agree with all the things about puppies post birth that you gentlemen are discussing, but, getting back to the " in the womb" thing. I have always believed that positive stimulation of the mother during pregnancy, was a major factor in how the pups or child, or any live birth animal for that matter, would be (  Better, Faster, Stronger).  Key things most of our fraternity look for is more grit, more nose, more track speed, more endurance and better feet. What key stimulations to the gyp, during pregnancy, and timing of them, relate to changes in the key things we seek to improve upon?  I know it works, but how in these key things?

Mike,

I do not know the answers to your questions...but I have copied some sections of a study to show it epigenetics work...there are many other ways besides what I am pasting below...

New research1 demonstrates males may experience epigenetic changes when exposed to cold temperatures prior to mating that are passed to their offspring, appearing as a greater percentage of brown fat distribution
Recent research using an animal model demonstrates males who spend time in lower temperatures prior to mating produce offspring with more active brown fat tissue.6 This quite literally means the environment has an impact on the father’s ability to pass epigenetic changes to his offspring.
Recent research using an animal model demonstrates males who spend time in lower temperatures prior to mating produce offspring with more active brown fat tissue.6 This quite literally means the environment has an impact on the father’s ability to pass epigenetic changes to his offspring.

In order to delve further into this correlation, researchers conducted studies on mice.7 Splitting the mice into two groups, one group was kept near 74 degrees Fahrenheit (F) while the other was kept at a cool 47 degrees F. The animals were then allowed to mate. An analysis of their offspring showed the environmental temperature of the male made a difference in the level of brown fat tissue in the babies, but the temperature of the females were kept in did not.
The offspring of the males kept in cooler conditions were better protected against excess weight gain and against metabolic disorders.8 This research confirms prior studies demonstrating environmental factors have the ability to modify epigenetic pattern of sperm.
However, this is the first time ambient temperature has demonstrated an ability to make genetic changes that are passed on to the offspring.

one of the ways I understand epigenetics to work is as follows...

it is about perceptions...positives perceptions and negative perceptions and can be created in different environments...

Like I mentioned in an earlier post...I can feed the pups first thing in the morning and right after I can feed them some wild pork as treats and they might not be interested because they are not hungry...that is a negative perception of what I want to create...then right after I grab a pork skin and drag it around to entice the pups to give chase and catch...I can not get the best out of these pups on account they aren't hungry and they are so full they don't want to give chase...all negative perceptions on account I created those negative environments...

Over the years I have used the power of hunger to my advantage for many different scenarios...

Now I will do it in a different environment...The pups are very hungry early in the morning...I have given these pups pork treats through the kennel fence and they now love the taste of pork because hunger intensifies their want to eat...a couple days later I scatter the pieces of pork in the yard and they want to get to them because they know they taste good...and they hunt hard for the treats...they are keenly interested and will hunt hard for them...their cells and brain were craving these treats...I created the environment and their biological being created the want to environment...

The next morning I show up with a nice pork skin drag and run it across their noses at the kennel fence and then I open the gate and they are giving hard chase and then I make sure they win by letting them catch and they set down anchoring the pig hide...

just doing the right things at the right time...and creating the right environment...

I create the right environment for the pups...but the pups biological environment is right for the training exercises created by their hunger...

the genes and DNA we inherit and the environment tweaks the changes whether it can be passed on to the offspring or not...in some cases yes and others not...

Quite a bit of what I have written is proven fact and the rest is my personal theories at work...

a few more examples of positive and negative environments of many, many more...

we experience love, security and happiness...our brains and cells react and many positive ways...the life blood travels through all the vital organs and cells and many and many positive hormones are released as they are carried by the blood through all the cells in the body...we tend to be healthy with the positive thoughts (positive perceptions) which were created by the biological and external environments...

We experience fear because we broke down in a bad neighborhood and we must now walk towards safety in the dark...now we experience fear and anxiety (negative perception but reality), our blood flow is now restricted to our major organs which should have priority...but in this case the blood flow was restricted to the organs because the brain decide it is now prepping for fight or flight...it is now increasing the blood flow to the extremities such as legs and arms...

so whether human child or animal in gestation...if in a negative environment...then what are the extent of repercussions?

Man, this is good stuff...Maybe we should look to the wild dogs (wolves, coyotes, foxes, dingoes, ect.) of this world for some of these answers.

That is the next subject I will and below when I have time...dingoes weren’t in the plan but it applies...

I myself agree that there are certain characteristics in animals and people that are created in the womb. I am a firm believer in a balanced digestive system. Your digestive system creates and works in conjunction with same chemicals your brain makes. If one is off the other more times than not, the other is too. So, if you get a female that is pretty  sound and stable and all of a sudden she gets sick or she has to deal with something very traumatic for a long period of time during the gestation,  it's very likely that the offspring will show it at some point. It may be that they are susceptible to disease or that they have a lot of anxiety or can't deal with pressure, etc. etc. If a hot acclimated female is taken to a cold climate and has offspring, it usually isn't long before the offspring start getting longer haired. Those are examples of epigenetics to me and what I believe to be true. I don't know if I agree with your theory of the pork though Rueben. To me that is a learned  characteristic. Brains, speed, grit, build,  those are all inherited genes. They are not influenced by gestational occurrences, in my opinion. A family of catch dogs that naturally go to the ear, or family of currs that hunt deep or have a ton of bottom, these to are inherited and become more potent through selective breeding. I don't think that the pups are gonna  be faster if I feed the mother Cheetah meat while she's pregnant or that they'll be coon crazy when they open their eyes because she was fed a coon diet. Those things are from selective breeding. I'm not the smartest marble in the  bag but that's what I believe.

I don’t buy into any of that stuff. I feel like a good diet and strong body with a sound emotional system. The rest is preset and up to the amount of work put into the raising of the animal or child.


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Tdog...
You are right about genetics...I can’t expect to feed a wiener dog Cheetah meat and train it to chase a mechanical rabbit and expect it to keep up with the greyhounds...ever

There is no doubt in my mind that proper selection of pups from within a bloodline of well bred dogs is the way to go...proper socialization and exposure to different conditions will make those pups better dogs...sometimes it is epigenetics or just plain training or a combination of both...

There is genetics...epigenetics and training...with common sense and know how along with some reading we can put it to work in our favor...I believed in it before I knew the term  “epigenetics”...

I agree with that Reuben. Judge, I believe in it for my own reasons. To me one form or example is this, a woman has a couple of kids. They are healthy and functional at a high level. She has another child by the same father as the first two, only  this time she's strung out on drugs. This child is  born maybe favoring the older two or maybe with deformities. Maybe the third one has a learning disability or a really poor immune system. These weren't inherited traits. They were a product of what happened during gestation. Altered genes due to outside influence. I have seen horses that were closely related and some stayed down south and a couple went up north. When off spring from the northern horses came back, they had twice as much hair and longer hair all because of the alterations the climate difference created. Typically they were short tight haired animals. Just my opinion.

I have first hand knowledge of drug baby. Both my sisters where heroine baby’s there are perfectly normal. My cuzin dad was hit by agent orange she was born with out fore arms and her sister died. But any way out side of a drug induced change or a extreme weather conditions even then could take generations to change. If you read your check book to your unborn child it’s no more likely to be a banker then any one else. It’s prove that kids that do above average at 3 to 5 are average at 10 to 12. It’s just wishful thinking to me. If my son drinks grape koolaide and listens to rap will his skin get darker lol


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What do reckless choices, stressful situations, poor nutrition and environment have to do with learning in the womb? That is damage in the womb and I know that can happen. Proper care, handling and good genetics determine what you end up with not what the mother smells or eats while she is pregnant, as long as it is nutritious.

Pretty much saying the same thing


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I don't think it's actual "learning in the womb"  as it genes being altered. I myself don't believe anything "learns" in the womb. Maybe my understanding of epigenetics is wrong, I've been wrong once before.

Haven’t we all bubba


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But only once! hahahahaha

Ok T-dog....you got me on that one...you are 100 percent right...it isn’t learning in the womb...it is changes in living cells or living components  that adapt to certain environments and conditions...

There is nothing New whatsoever...all this has been going on all along as part of nature...the only thing different is that we are reaching a higher level of understanding and as a result we now have many scientists studying and performing experiments learning more about how this works...hunting dogs could reach a higher potential as hunting dogs

If they spent all the time effort and money wasted on those silly theory’s and put in to teen pregnancy prevention and after school programs we might actually gain some of our intelligence back 


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Reuben no disrespect but I still think your trying to convince yourself your on a mountain when in reality your just on a mole hill when it comes to this whole Epigenetics subject, yes I believe it is real and as T dog mentioned easy examples to use are livestock in various regions being moved to a different region, but in the grand scheme of things exactly how does this help us improve our breeding programs, most of the things you’ve mentioned in this post are helpful but aren’t any improvements on what Mother Nature has already shown us and after all she is the ultimate breeder and scientist and doesn’t make mistakes, the pork in the yard method and technique doesn’t have anything to do with improving on genetics , that is nothing more than conditioning, you could do the same thing with deer meat, ribeyes, boiled eggs, dog treats etc. and still get the same results, I’m fortunate enough to live where I do and have understanding neighbors and am able to let my pups run loose and after a few weeks they learn when they see me coming on my golf cart to immediately run to the feed shed door and start scratching, that has nothing to do with their cells or genes “waking up” or becoming active, they’ve figured out that’s where the food is, as they get older they figure out that there’s game to run in the woods and natural instincts take over, I’ll give an example, the first F1 cross I made with the family of running walkers I chose and my cur stock, two ran loose most of their life until they were becoming a nuisance and safety concern, they could run a red fox and coyote like they were tied to him by a year old, those two were natural game getters and took right to real hunting like a baby duck does to water, and after the switch to hogs I can count on one hand how many times I’ve had them trash on off game, their full sister was left in a big pen behind my parents house and was never allowed to run like the other two and now at a little over 3 years old that one female is better than the two that had all the experience and exposure that they could get and is now my buddy’s go to dog on his yard, there are several things that can be done post partem to enhance what is already there genetically but a man has to truly know his family of dogs to notice a difference, most of the things and methods you’ve mentioned in this post and others have already been done and tried, breeding dogs isn’t anything new, the old school APBT guys tried just about everything a man could dream up to “improve” on what they had in a bitches belly and after all the trials and very little triumphs they realized that there’s not much improving on sound genetics and a balanced diet, there are some things that can done be as far as a pre natal diet is concerned other than making sure the females increasing dietary needs are met supplementing her with high amounts of DHA, which is omega-3 oils has been proven to improve cognitive development and function later on in life, it has also been written that there isn’t a neurological connection between a mother and fetus, if that were the case every physical pain the mother felt the fetus would also feel, their only connection is the placenta and what enters into the fetus comes through the blood after the mothers body has extracted what it needs to maintain itself, I have never read anywhere or seen any examples of “learning in the womb”, if that were the case we would already have the ultimate beings whatever it maybe, canine or human, at the end of day all that matters is that we do right by the dogs and their welfare, it doesn’t matter one bit what I do on my yard or what you do on your yard, as long as positivity and enjoyment comes from it, I respect your thinking and input that you contribute to the dog world even if I don’t agree on everything you mention and will be the first to admit that I’m not scared of innovation or change as long as it is for the better and maintain an open mind about life and my opinions may change or shuttle a little bit as life goes on and I’m able to broaden my knowledge on things, glad that there is something to talk about on here for the time being...

Thanks for your input Goose...but I have to strongly disagree with you on some of the epigenetics as how you and others see it...you are generalizing and that makes me believe you are wrong...it is not learning in the womb...sometimes it is conditioning due to environmental changes...the changes might not be great but they can be there...I do not thing it matters as much as to what it is...we can call it whatever or choose not to believe and we can still have great dogs when the genetics is right and with proper socialization to go along with it

Yes...I use wild pork now and then and beef liver or even churches fried chicken at times or whatever is handy...I am not creating these training exercises to train pups or even for genetic manipulation even though it is a good training exercise for them...I am looking for natural ability...such as a pup hunting into the wind and how he drifts in his or her search for the meat, I am looking for locating ability and style by who finds the most amongst other things...I call it testing the pups and I do this for baying style and for free casting in the woods as pups...we can train a pup to do these things to a certain extent...and we can then expect to have more of the same in future breedings...or...we can test those pups and select those that are born with that natural instinct and when they prove themselves at a later time in the woods then it is a go for future breedings...and they will produce themselves more often than not...natural ability begets more natural ability...if we all followed this thought process we wouldn’t be dealing with so many culls...epigenetics will be one more tool to add to our bag of training tools...in reality many of us already do this without realizing it...

I can defend most of what I say but most of the time I choose not to do so to prevent from having to go into so much detail ...after all when we present our opinions we believe them to be right...but I can be made to change my mind quickly when I clearly see that I am wrong...

We can all play the part of lawyers and poke holes in what someone says such as...but ole Fido didn’t pass the puppy testing but he is as good as the siblings that tested best now that he turned 2 years of age he is as good as the best...yep...that will happen but why breed Fido when you can breed the one who did it right from the beginning...

I too have given away one of my ten week old pups to my brother and that pup had tested well...long story short he didn’t do anything with him and so he gave him back to me at over two years old or older...and the first time I took him out he shined as good  as my better dogs...by the third hunt there was no doubt about his consistency...but realistically speaking how often will we see a dog that can be chained all it’s life and then make that type of hunting dog?

Yes...we can call it training, exposing or conditioning...but quite a bit of the success we get from a pup is in how we train, how long we train and when to get the best out of our pups...and we all know it is easier with the right pups...

I do put importance and priority in feeding the pups a hog head at the minimum once but try for two or 3 times different times...and dragging a piece of pig hide once or twice so I can get them grab it and not just nip at it....whether it is epigenetics, conditioning or exposing...it doesn't matter...what matters is the end result...