EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Where do dogs get their speed?   What body structure is responsible for true unadulterated (as hairy holder put it) type speed?      Often times people look at a picture of a dog with high flanks and a deep chest and long legs and think that dog is a rocket.         Just isn't the case.   Sure these things are indications but are not proof.
           A dogs speed comes largely from its back amongst a few other things.      The spines ability to flex and flatten is essential.  A dogs spin that doesn't flex and flatten well isn't going to be as fast.      Look at pics of racing greyhounds in motion.     You will see two common pictures.   One with the dogs legs under it and the other with the dogs legs extended in sometimes what looks like a horizontal plane.         The front flight phase and the rear flight phase is sometimes what these two photos are known as.       
   Pics of greyhounds are easily found and illustrate well the amount of overreach their back legs obtain when in the front flight phase.    Notice the back and spine at this point.     The flexible spine is what allows this to take place.               Now the rear flight phase with the front legs stretched way way out in front and the back legs extended out the rear so perfectly.    Notice the back and spine at this point and how flat it is now.    Greyhounds who's backs won't flatten out will not be as fast as ones that do.           
    Several other things aid in speed such as length of leg, length of body, muscle,  muscle type which results in how many strides per second a dog can do, the conditioning of a dog and more.           
      Without the flexible back and spine and the ability to execute the double suspension gate they way the grey does with its extreme overreach and flexible spine, all the other stuff like length of leg, conditioning, length of body etc are just looks and only hints at a fast dog.
         If you know what to look for, you can tell a lot about how the true speed of a dog by these two photos.   A standing picture of a dog is not very useful proof of a dogs speed.    They can look fast but only be average and an average looking dog can be faster than you might think by looking at a standing dog
     

speed is mental body style second ..... 

If speed is derived from the mentality of a dog then why did you show a picture of a dog and try to pass it as proof he was fast.      Was we supposed to be looking at how mental the dog was lol

I said I try to breed athletic dogs I also said that dog thought he needed  to kill every hog he seen so he had the mentality to use his athletic build to run one down ...... if a dog don't have the mental part to run fast  he just wont no matter what his body looks like ..... you know that .....don't you ?  maybe you ain't read that part yet ....

If just mentality won races, you'd see some cow dogs at the dog tracks and I'd be betting on them, you'd also see some little Italian guys in the olympics lol


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its mental .......  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

hey you must not watch the Olympics ......cause that's all they talk about is the percentage is way more mental than physical .........   

Like most things they ether got it or they don't


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Everybody knows your dogs are fast dean.
All the bs aside. why don't you talk about nose, or bottom? You got bill nye the science guy with ya. What's your end on a good ol nose, tackin a track and finishing it. And bottom? In thick ol stuff?

give m a few days to research it art ..... ;D ;D ;D ;D well let me go load  up these  mutts ........we may get lucky today if we only get outrun 3or 4 times  ;)

This thread  wasn't about my dogs,    I posted that because I've not ever seen speed talked about or discussed on this forum in the way  I just did.        I'm trying to contribute original thought provoking  discussions.          As far as your science guy comment goes, here is one for you.       I'm trying to talk dogs using my neocortex brain.   The responses you and Parker throw back at me are from the limbic part of your brains.     
       As far as nose on my dogs, I've feilded that question many times and nothing has changed.      I'll give you a recent example of my young stag to in hopes of making you happy.        Had a couple stags in the truck with me the other night.      Herd one give out a yelp.   I stopped, they bailed out the back, went 640 yards and hit a pig.
       Bottom - I'll create another thread addressing my thoughts on it as I see it with my style and type of dogs I hunt with, when time allows.
         Track dogs are great, bottom is great, grinding out a long track is great, I like all good hunting dogs.   
    As far as discussing hunting in brush, we'll I tried to have that discussion the other day.   First to really understand the brush the way I do and what takes place in it and the dynamics of things, we must first understand what takes place in the open and why.    Tried to have that discussion but most everyone got hung up on the open and couldn't move past it.   It seemed to have struck everybody in the limbic part of their brain.

why not just say I have  dogs to suit the places I hunt and  they suit ME ......  hahahaha  limbic  must mean quicker it has took u a week to reply with your neocortex ..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  I'm getting to like  you ....  I'm bored again today .....may go put out corn ....

I am not foolish enough to think my cur dog can outrun a good well bred running dog but it would take one to outrun him. I also know there's not a hog alive that can outrun him in the open. I also know that in chest deep water with brush, saw grass and all the stuff that grows in the swamp, the same running dog won't outrun my cur. If your going for the number you catch, the running dog man would have the advantage. His dogs would come out of there pretty quick and he could go back to the sitting ducks in the fields. The times I've been able to dump dogs on hogs in the open, it was like shooting fish in a barrel.
    Even with my feeble brain, I figured out a long time ago, if your getting outrun on a regular basis, its not a hog problem, it's a dog problem .You fix it by getting better dogs in the style you like to hunt, but you still won't catch them all.

I work to much, and life is plenty busy with the kiddos and the wife to sit around and think about what part of my brain moves my left leg and what part of my spine moves my toe. Basically I don't care!
Speed, here goes. I played football with a man 6'3 could scratch his knees standing up, dread locks and was ripped! Built like an athlete. Guy looked scary in a football uniform.
couldnt run under a 5second 40 (I'm 5'8 240 basically short in fat, and could out run him) and he could catch a football better 1 handed than 2 handed because if using both his hands Would cross. He couldn't jump higher than 4 inches off the ground and was just about dumb as a bag of rocks. The right wind gust and he'd fall over and be tackled.
You either no how to use what you got, or you just don't!
I'll talk of dogs now. I've seen some leggy slander body dogs that look like they could be a dart. Trip over there food bowl. It's mental, you can use it or not. That's not scientifically hypotenuses climaxed and formatted like yourself would done it.
If one can't run one down in the open.. How is that same exact dog finishing hogs in some of the thickest stuff around me? Explain. I honestly don't care if it runs one down in the open and "finder holds" it what ever the hell you call it.
That's catching hogs. I like to hunt. I like hunting dogs.

^sure right my man. Shooting fish in a barrel.
Hey there's a hog!  :o
Dean. Aside all this. I bet you're a nice man, very educated you seem, and probably a good dad and husband. I bet we could get along not talking about dog. Maybe Somthing else. Which isn't a bad thing. We all have opinions.

The reason they can stop dogs in the brush is because the pig become more comfortable it's like this if you were in walmart and some one started shooting would u know where to go like the back of your hand no and you would not feel comfortable in that situation then you have some one kick in your front door the first thing u do is get the peace maker and listen to see where in the house he is you picture the lay out of your house in your head then you make your move n dispatch him the pig is the same way he goes in a field to eat (walmart) hear,smells or see the dogs takes of in to the wood where he spends most his time runs where he knows he's going till the dogs get to him then he stops cus he thinks he can take the dogs or evaluate the situation then makes his next move be it run or get slapped by a bulldog a finder holder will either run it down in the open or run in to his house and when the pig stops to evaluate ends the race right there walk up dogs are swinging and to the foot ball point you must have never played with any polys lol look up jonah lomu he would be the type of dog we ran big fast and strong with smarts n hit like a fright train 8) MUCH ALOHA

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Thanks Art!  I appreciate that.   Means a lot to me for you to say that.  

Well Larry...Maybe you have a challenged neocortex  but it seems your prefrontal cortex is above average...and your amygdala is well formed...l will issue you a clean bill of health due to your strengths ability to overshadow your weakness...no charge for the analysis...

bigo I agree with the last part you said.    The middle part about dogs in swamp type stuff well I gotta say that's a dog by dog basis and not a broad blanketed statement as you put it.     Dogs with longer legs that can touch bottom  or push off better are likely to outperform one that can't.     A dogs willingness and desire to work in such areas is another thing that allows the dog to navigate well in such environments.       I don't see how a cur is any better at it than say hairy holders dogs are who work the swamps of the delta on a very regular basis. We run a few littermates.     I wouldn't expect mine to do as well as his in that environment because his are very used to that type of environmental conditions, mine are used to more hard woods instead of swamp.       I've hunted with hairy holder in the exact stuff you just described.     Couldn't belive some of the stuff he hunted.    We caught two boars on that place, one going 446 pounds which was found and held by just one dog.   Right in the soured mud that pulled your boots off, stagnant looking water, mosquito infested, tall weeds, hot summer night.   Dry land was seeming impenetrable walls of grass woven tightly in briars with only narrow trails navigate through it in.  Grass seemed to be woven together like a door mat and went 1/3 way up the trees that were also thick.     Add in briar thickets with the grass and tree thickets and it's enough to humble most anybody.      I believe out of all the land he has contracted to him for hog removal, that sorta stuff makes up aprox 5/8s of what he catches pigs on.   May have that reversed though.   I tell you all that because same dogs he uses to hunt that stuff I have here in my own pens and are my best dogs.
    The fist part of your statement about your cur  being able to outrun pigs in the open I don't see much to debate either.     Many curs can match the speed of a fast pig or outrun them.        

Black streak...how well do hairy holders dog swim in the deep water...

Many years of testing and observing my dogs I have found certain physical traits that the strongest of swimmers have in common...and some of these curs  will hit the deep water in thE marsh like a well bred lab...

I have found that their confedence and comfort with the water often dertermins how relaxed and well they swim.
   I don't want them pulling there front feet out of the water.    Often when a dog does this, it's kinda panicking or uncomfortable with its situation.         For puppies I put a big plastic swimming pool in there pen.   They will get to playing in and loving the water if they are summer puppies.          I always do a lot of swimming in tanks with the young dogs and older ones alike.        To me, them being comfortable in the water and confident and good swimmers is a big deal to me eventhough I don't have many water catches the way I did when I run bay dogs.
       When my dogs go cool off in water on a hunt, usually the only thing you see of some of them are their heads because they go out to deep enough water and lay down in it.       Pups will run and jump into the water like labs jumping for a bird that hit the water.             Even the stags I raised did this which is pretty uncommon for such dogs.   usually stags will only go as far as getting their feet wet when cooling off, less they are really really hot, then they might go a a few steps farther.              I don't see the physical characteristics coming into play as far as their ability to swim.   To me I see it more as their level of confedence and comfort with the water.       

There's a big difference in a dog being fast and a dog having track speed, after the sight chase is over and let's say the hogs hit the brush and don't spin to fight ( which you say they normally do) and the dog has to put in nose work to finish the game, he's only going to be able to run that track as fast as his nose will let him no matter the spinal alignment or cat like features a dog may possess...


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Hyan, that was an example of what your made up to look like, your not always that.
Believe me, I played with guys that would split your head in half! It happened to me all the time lol.
I see what your saying about all the Walmart stuff, but I think a lot of times it depends on track speed, bottom and the right grit. And pressure! To much pressure causes running hogs. Either gunna catch em, or grab em sit em down and get back and bay.
Just cause there not caught out in plain sight. Doesn't mean there not caught in the thick stuff.
Hey dean. Idk if anyone has ever asked. Could one of your dogs be used to turn to bays? Hyan, did y'all use them like that either?

That kinda was my point If to much pressure they run so my dogs would lock before they had that chance to run...we never ran bay dogs separate so idk I have two finer holders n one bay dog that won't touch a hog that goes with them to let us know where the dogs were at

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I gotcha.

I'm way off topic, hyan would that bay dog find the hogs and your finder holders tag along and catch at the find or was the bay dog along for the ride just as the barking locator?

They would all be able to find so I did rum in to problems when they would separate but for the most part they new to stay together I am sure they could be turn to a bay but that defeats the purpose of breeding the to have nose n stamina I think the bull arab type dig would be good for a lead in because if you run the heavy set big body dogs then tend to lock up after a few pigs if they are used as finderholders our dogs are big but not as wide as bull arab type it helps them on the speed side but that's not to say if you get a bull arab I won't be the first in line for a pup lol

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