EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Seems as though we on this forum have humanized the big dog to the point it's more like use than animals.    Every other animal besides a big dog can apparently get through brush well.    Pigs, deer, cows, little dogs, etc.     big dogs and humans seem to be the only things that have a hard time with it according to the common theme on here.      My dogs can jump over the side of my truck bed from the ground yet some think they would have a hard time getting through swamps.   no, I've hunted with their littermates and parents in the swamps in the delta along the Gulf of Mexico and in the jungle of crap that surrounds it on dry land.        it's just crazy the things people will assume to be true on here without hard evidence to back it up.   Then they dispute the evidence given and then begin to try and tweak the argument saying well it would be suicide for a catch dog to hold a pig long in that stuff.    Which that's already been discussed by sighting the differences between 2 cd's only and a cd or two accompanied by bay dogs.    just not the same.     Course the biggest evidence of proof that debunks this myth is that if this is really so, then how is it done so successfully by dogs in different parts of the country like Hawaii or the delta along the Gulf Coast and by the same family of dogs I'm running.            Then the it goes to well the pigs are smaller.         
      People on this subject are like Democrat's running for office.    Their story and argument changes each time it's debunked or fact checked.            A few people claim to have dogs that bust the brush but as most have pointed out in story after story, they all have dogs that hunt the brush.    Who doesn't hunt the brush on here? Not a single person that I'm aware of which includes myself.        Why then is it such an improbable thing for finder holder guys to not be able to do well in the brush.      What's so different about a cross bred finder holder than a cross bred bay dog other than the holder will catch and the bay dog won't.    Its crazy what some will so blindly buy and so blindly follow and regergitate.           Proof to your point is going out with a big pet and sending it into the brush behind some hunting dogs, that's not proof, that's ignorant.        Compare two like things.   Hunting dog to hunting dog experienced cd to experienced cd.
Take the word of people that do things successfully over those that have failed and give up.      It's just common sense.   
         

It's not a myth it is a fact that a big dog in a bad thicket can not perform like a small dog in a bad thicket

I will say this I have some small dogs and some big stocky dogs that I hunt every week   The smaller dogs smoke the bigger dog every time. That being said when the bigger dogs get there it is game over. There not any thing you would call a finder holder but a striaght catch cur. My biggest dog goes around 90 lbs cat Florida cur cross. He is not a speedy dog or his litter mates and previous litters but they will bust thru best they can. If we are talking deep brush and long distance I from my own experience will say the smaller dog will smoke the taller dog. Now if there are opening that stretch a bit then the taller dog can use his speed to recover. Then u have to take in for the 20 foot creek inbankments deep water tall grass 6 strand fence no climb fence and brairs so thick a flash light can't go thru. Now I would say you will have dogs no matter the size or breed they just plain get it done but most are to there weak point as they are to there strong point. If you got a guy 5 9 165 lb in top shape vs a 6 3 240 lb guy top shape there will be thing one can do that the other can't same with dogs   


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I didn't say your dogs could not get through swamps, I said they would be no faster than mine in the swamps. Your dogs would be hard pressed to outrun him on open flat ground. You started all this mess by implying that if we could not catch hogs in the open, we could not catch them in the woods. It's easy to catch them in the open, if you have fast dogs and most good bred stock dogs are very fast. A wild hogs top speed is around 28 to 30 mph. A young crossbred heifer can run that fast or faster and these dogs blow by them and stop them from running off all the time. You may have good dogs but lots of other people do to. They can catch just as many as you do, in the open or in the brush. We just like dogs that are not one dimensional. We can catch hogs, pen the hogs, pen the cows, hunt other game and they guard the place and livestock from two legged and four legged varmints when they are laying around the house and lots of them can jump over the side of the truck.

Good response big O, Dean I have to ask why is is so important for you to get people to convert to your "style" of dogs, some folks like Chevy some dodge and some ford, you know what all 3 have in common, they get you where your going, I can appreciate dogs of your style and enjoy reading about them and watching videos but there's nothing in this world that will convince me that style of dogs is going to put my style to shame where I live unless I witness it first hand with my own two eyes done consistently, yes I believe your dogs are agile and can move through brush quickly but I have good cur dogs that can do that to, the difference between a finder/holder and a good cur is a good cur wi have the nose to continue on with hog for hours if needed running off scent...


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A dog has to be going 38 or faster to catch a running pig in open stags top out at around 40-43 if you cur can run that fast put some type of catch dog in that line and use it as a fast catch dog that way if a pig brakes he can just run it down and I am being serious  :-[

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Finderholders can stay with pigs for hours also it depends what you add in them ie more nose from one breed hounds have stamina also there not like fat people where just cus there big they are not in shape also how you run them and once one a pig it is expected to hold just as long as you expect your bay dog to bay if you call a cur off a pig every time it brakes that cur will stop running them after a while same with finderholders you let them hunt they hunt you call them off they stop hunting and come back

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here is something to consider...some may think that they have an awesome pack and they do when it comes to catching pigs...but sometimes the reality is that there is one good track dog in the bunch all the rest of the dogs will follow...and then one day that track becomes alligator bait and then reality sets in...seen it more than once...

many a cur dog will run down and catch a hog in the open...and the chances of catching hogs go up in late winter when the weeds are down and the weather is cooler...down in the south where the palmettoes are thick and sometimes 8 or 9 ft tall it will not matter...the terrain will be the same year round...

I haven't read any responses yet but have some further points to make regarding the big dogs don't do brush very well debate.            
    Things evolve over time.  There is discussion on this very forum regarding this issue and pig.   used to they grouped and bayed I read, now they run.          Look at the dogs most commonly used now in the US for pig dogging.     cow dogs converted to pig dogs.    Look at the pit bull.   it's almost come full circle, from bear and bull baiting then to fighting other dogs now back to catch boar.   Think of the transitions the pit has went through.    Now look at the original boar dog.    Why is it so hard to believe it would convert back to what it was originally bred for with a little coaxing.   Why is it so hard to belive Americans can't do with a dog what other countries either have done or presently do.    We are the world leader in developing things.  We in our short history have brought the world from the horse and buggy to now being able to fly, speak to someone around the world in 30 seconds, capture moments in time and relive the past via video, we have walked on the moon, brought the life expectancy from 5p years up to 85 and so on and so on and so on and so on.    Why  can we not do with big dogs what other countries have done and are doing.         Heck the work as already been done, the breeds already created, all it takes is unlocking  the dogs ability.   Hence crossing them.  
       I've read on here pages upon pages of stuff about breeding better dogs.   Breeding for this or that, now we have people on here breeding them to look alike.    How does this just stop with bay dogs.   It doesn't!    My type dogs are just foreign to most here but the same concept  that applies to breeding better bay dogs or strike dogs  still applies to dogs you are unfamiliar with.
           I realize Finder holder types are a new concept here in America.   That largely contributes to a lot of the false information  spread on this forum and other places about them.      There is lots to discuss about them, they are a new type dog to most.   Most have probably never seen one hunt or hold but speak about them and tell me what they can't do when they have never even  been with someone who hunts them.   Same with large powerful athletic lead in catch dogs.     I didn't own them, i owned pits for my lead in.    The big cd's always performed as good or better in thick briars because of the exact opposite reason most on here sight.   "They get hung up in brush"    I witnessed time and time again the exact opposite.   They were not my dogs, I'm not ashamed to say it.   I had the little ones.        Pits are my favorite breed but that don't mean I have scales over my eyes.         We all have dogs that do well in the brush.   it is not just unique to small cd's and  bay dogs.

Hyan if those dogs are so good why don't you have some on a boat over right now cause the way it sounds it be like shooting fish in barrel with the east Texas terrain


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   I'm not trying to convert anybody.    I'm trying to stop the spread of misinformation and doing so by teaching  and sharing info.           I really can't think of a better way to dispell myths.         I feild a question now and then to someone asking a specific question such as how to catch pigs on small places instead of  loosing them across property line.     Then when I do that it turns into a debate about my dogs vs others dogs.        So seeing the need for proper information, I'm trying to share about my dogs, both the good and the bad.      Pros and Cons.      I'm not advocating people switch to my style.   I actually don't encourage most anybody to do so because just having the proper dogs is not good enough, you need to know how to hunt them.      Most people not gonna put the effort into proper dogs or get their heads wrapped around the proper hunt style.    Thus it would be counter productive for me to advocate people go this route.    However, what's wrong with getting the correct information out there.          There are a few people like I was who thirst for information about these dogs and this style of hunting.     What not a better place to come for information on pig dogs and pig dogging than this forum?    Am I wrong?        This is a new thing to a lot of people.   why can't this be a good source to obtain the truth and dispell the myths?     That's my approach and why I'm saying and sharing what I am.

You see, the thing about "teaching" is you have to know your "students"....there are some folks commenting on this thread that have used dogs on livestock and in the woods longer than most of the others have been alive.. Personally, I reckon they know a thing or two that maybe the "teacher" don't.

It would be prudent for all to choose their "teachers" wisely....

Because I don't have 5k to ship one dog if I can get my hands on finderholders up here I'll happily run them if I had the space I would breed them myself but I don't have the space to breed 6 different dogs nor the time and another thing to think about is the hog population in tx vs hi if dog can find pigs where there arnt that much then they dam sure can find them where the population is out of control

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Health certificate and a airplane flight a few hundred dollars Hairy Holder told me he flew a couple pups to Hawaii for a few hundred dollars.

It depends on the type of dog they have used for all those years you can have "teacher" that teaches math for 100 years that same "teacher" can't tell some one who has bin teaching history for 15 years how to do there job and not if the history teachers parent has also thought history who's grandfather has also thought history and so on for 5 generations they have all bin history teachers,I don't say much about curs because I only started hunting behind them in Jan but I think the curs I hunt behind are the best curs there are... but I will be the first to admit I hate dragging a bulldog in and out of the woods that's why I don't like the American style of running bay dogs n cds I know that this style catches pigs and I love the dogs Bayed up but it the walking a dog that sucks for me...are you saying that this is not the place for finder holder type dogs and this is just for cur/bay and walk in cds? :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(

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When I was on the island I wanted to bring my pits over that was a costly and time consuming affair due to the two month Quarantine. So I never did They don't have some of the stuff we have here that would run like wild fire there. But any ways coming back wasn't that bad bunch of guys I knew brought them back that was 25 yrs ago


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To catching curs not much else needed


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If a dog is flown to hawaii it has to go in quaritin for at least 6 months all paid for by you average cost is $3500 just for that not the plane ticket they used to let vets do checks up here then send them in but there has bin snakes and other wildlife found on the tarmac so they have cracked down hard hawaii doesn't even let you ship green coffee because of bugs in the coffee if it was just a few hundred I would have a set of dogs here already

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I wasn't born 25 years ago old man lol but yea in the 90s gas was 50 cents there now it's $5 a gal

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hyan, I've dumped my dogs on a 30 head sounder and had them run by them 'till they got to the front and stop them all in the field. Now I don't know how fast that was, but it was fast enough. If I had put catch dog in them, they would have caught the first hogs they came to. That and running hogs down and stopping them in the open is done by stock bred dogs all the time. Some dogs are very fast and not just crossed up running dogs. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
    Very few dogs can run 43mph. Only 30% of greyhounds bred to race make the grade and 43 to 45mph wins many races. There used to be a Greyhound brush track near my home where they ran match races on Thursday nights. Never saw anyone bring a stag and bet their money. There were a good many Stags around in those days. They used them on rabbits and Coyotes. Wild hogs were not in that part of the country then.
    

I can appreciate but I think it's the way you go about trying to "give" your information, I think its great sharing knowledge,I, like yourself have a
Never quenching thirst for knowledge...


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    Now this is a very very fine example what I'm talking about.      Emotion taking the place of reason.    Perfect limbic brain example trying to be passed off as a neocortex.    You would think such a very strong statement would be followed up with and supported by logic but emotional responses such as this are not gonna  have much logic to them.     Probably why the person gets so made, they can't defend their position and resort to emotion over reason.         This is no the way to have a descussion.      If you can't back up what your trying to sell as factual with logic, then how are we to have a descussion.   Just because you say it's fact and you offer no supporting evidence to back it up, doesn't lend much credibility to your position.    it's just all based on an emotional response.      Prime example is the black lives matter movement.      You can't reason with them, they won't accept a logical descussion and they deny facts or facts just don't matter to them.    They speak loudly because they want to be heard but when they speak, no logic comes out, it's all emotional responses.   The more logic you say to them, the more upset they become.        You can't talk or reason with a person like this because they are gonna ignore logic and facts and feed you an emotional response in return for your efforts.

     You mean like the guy who said speed was mental lol
  Cow dogs and other livestock dogs are not the same subject matter as the hunting and catch dogs I'm speaking of.    I think you have your teacher and classrooms confused.      Not very effective to have an algebra teacher teaching history would you say?   Kinda the hole point I'm making about how different the styles are and dogs are.    Just not the same course my friend.    For example, just because I know what I do about finder holders and stags, doesn't give me expert knowledge on hounds.       Different course requires different teacher.   Simple really and again common sense.

I have owned 2 dogs that were #100 while they were both from proven line of dogs and were both very nice catch dogs, I caught lots of hogs with them but my smaller CDs were much quicker to the bay in the thick stuff the smaller dogs would always beat the big dogs. I have seen the same thing behind numerous other big dogs over the years and these were not the backyard out of shape dogs you keep mentioning. I'm not going to say every smaller dog will beat every dog dog every time but I will say that the smaller cd will do a lot better getting hooked up in the brush better than the big dog because I have personally seen it with my own two eyes over and over again


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Lol bubba gas was 4 bucks back then gulf war then it dropped to 225 to 275 off post. I rember going to Cali and being glad it was 2 bucks it might have been 50 cents in the 50ds lol


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Wait so you are telling me what finderholders can't do but just said that pigs were not even apart of the country yet? And this is in you life time so let's say your talking about the 50s idk how old you are my family has bin ranching kapapala ranch over a 142 years and have bin running dogs from that time to work cattle then would take the most ruff crazy stupid dogs didn't matter the breed to hunt pigs as finderholders so if my family has bin run these type dogs that long and you didn't even have them in your county how can you say that curs are better? Never mind this is pointless nothing can compare to curs end of story a cur can outrun a gray hound a rough cur can go one off and hold a pig for hours and can run a pig for miles and never get tired a cur can out run and stop any pig that comes in its nose and is just so good that you only have to breed for looks o and there "mental" and a finderholder can do none of that if a finderholder even gets in the presence of a cur it will cower in amazement and ask the cur to sign it's brestplate period facts are facts

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I've seen big dogs come out with vines and briars dragging behind them and quit the race in hot weather..... even my smaller dogs the whole underside of them will be  raw  where the briars eat them up ......  

Lol maybe it was $2 I was trying to make a point don't judge me!

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Sorry no manners should have said this first MUCH MAHALO for your service

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here cowdogs and hog dogs has always been same dogs. When I was younger we would find bay and pen cattle for 2 days load up same dogs and go hog hunting on the 3 rd day find bay and catch hogs all with same ole stock breed cur dogs. I don't fool with cows much any more but still several people here still doing same thing with the same cur dogs that have been bread same way for last 60 years or more

back in the early sixties diesel was dirt cheap because it was a byproduct...gas was 27 cents a gallon and sometimes there were price wars and gas stations would have it at 19 cents a gallon or lower...

when unleaded first came out around the mid 1970's it was cheaper than regular...some said because they didn't add lead...but all that is a bunch of bull...it is about supply and demand...

This is ridiculous!Finder holders this finder holder that!Once again nothing new There are Cur Dogs Here In The States That Do Exactly What You Guys Keep Trying To Say Is New.Hyan I believe that you are hunting with some of the best bred bay dog's there are but you have no ground to stand on making broad statements against cur dog's and That goes for you as well Blackstreack.You guys run 2 dog's that find and catch and so do thousands of other people right here in the States.Cur dog's!Some of the old line's around me are very large as well The Dad to my Dozer pup was 95lbs and straight catch many people here don't even own a bulldog I do because I also have some baydogs and even a cold nosed hound.The longer I do this the more I realize that being one dimensional with your dog's,hunting and thought processes keeps you from being able to adapt and catch hogs anywhere you go.Example I started running straight catch dog's Curs and also well bred pits that put down 20 + miles a hunt and out performed many other dog's I still own these dog's and I walk hunted mainly but now I hunt some larger tracts of land as well with pine thicket and chop like these guy's speak of huge impenetrable blocks some blocks as large as a few thousand acres there may be a swamp or something in the center of that block and there may be hogs in there but it's impractical to walk in and find out.So you adapt you get casting dog's like the ones I have now that I can send in the block and whether it be 2 miles across it I will know if there's hogs in there.If not pick up and move on to the next.The club I hunted last week was 48,000 acres of this not very many tracks on the road or sign period but I caught 4 hogs behind my loose casting dog's and I know for a fact that my shorter ranging straight catch dog's would have had a hard time there don't get me wrong I could've busted the brush with them and caught a hog or two but it just wasn't the best way.When I hunt some of my smaller tracts of land I just bring my straight catch shorter ranging dog's and by shorter ranging I mean hunting 3-500 yds.I know that straight catch dog's work I own them  and they don't have to be from outside the country we got em here but there are places where they will be outperformed by a different styles dog and that's a fact.Also Hairy Holder told me he flew dog's to Hawaii so I am just passing on the info said it wasn't that costly.

Wait so you own finderholders there just short range so because yours are short range there are no long range finderholders? And I am not saying curs suck or can't find pigs they can.could your 95 pound cur dog out run a well bred 95 pound running dog cross like a stag/gray/deer/wolf or gray/shepherd/wippet/cat? I don't think so that's the point I was getting at I know there cur catch dogs I have seen them a friend of mine has some super and I mean super rough curs that find and hold pigs for as long as he let's them bad ass dogs but there not 100 pounds and fast as a running dog there in shape 55-65 pound dogs mike runs cur that will die before they leave a pig that they had started another set of bad ass cur dogs I know that curs work I am trying to point out that there not the only ones that can go out find pigs and hold them while you walk 1600 yards you like your curs keep your curs it's the right wing conspiracy that I am trying to say there's no place for curs if some one wants to know about finder holders that are not cur then black, hairy ,centex,txboardog,myself would be able to answer questions just like if I wanted to know about curs I would ask well mike first of course then mr.vice then you and judge and lastly of course parker cus he's a meany :D

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Here is my striker catcher lol. Not a hairy dog or a fast dog. But a hog wrecker needs no help. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160924/a4781d87d92d3a6c825001a5dd880080.jpg)


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That's a good looking striker catcher too

What are you talking about I never said that my dog's won't run a hog and catch him a mile out I said that the rougher dog's I own hunt at 3-500 yds which I like never said they ain't got bottom.I have had dog's caught for well over a hr with no injury.I was saying that it's nothing new here just called rough Curs not finder holder's.I speak with Dean and respect him for his knowledge and studies of his dog's but once again they're nothing new here just called something else.I would not ask for your advice Hyan because I don't believe you are totally truthful about your daddy's dog's size and age of starting the dog in that picture ain't 4 months old and catching rank board also I highly doubt that you're getting 120-30 lb dog's out of the crosses you speak of.Probably due to your age and a bit of hot headedness and I understand that but if I was asking for advice on your daddy's dog's I would ask him.As for what I posted about having many different styles and types of dog's for different situations I believe in it because I have seen it and unless your finder holder's will cast a mile into hell with no sign then they wouldn't catch hogs where I hunted last week.I also mainly hunt at night and my rough Curs have to trail fast not just run fast I have hunted places where hogs don't run like you speak of in Hawaii and it's easy to catch them no matter how thick the country but 99%of the places we hunt the hogs have seen a dog and run through palmetto and anything else that is nasty thick.so a fast trailing dog is needed which it sounds like your daddy has but so do we nothing new here.

Your right I know nothing and I lie about it all you have bin to hawaii? Hunted the big island? Seen me run my dogs? Just because you don't run dogs at 4 moths old can't be done right?a gray hound/shepherd can't be over 100 pounds right? And then put a cat that looks almost identical to judges dog he just posted that was breed In to the line right? So because I am only 24 I don't know anything about hogging or running dogs? And just make up storys? OK so I should just say your an old man that's full of number 2 because I never hunted with you or your dog's so every thing you say must be bullnumber 2 and if you have kids they don't know number 2 about huntkng to cus there daddy never taught them nothing? No I am not stupid of course youelr kids know stuff about dogs if they bin hunting all there life and there dad though them of couse I am not going to call bullnumber 2 on your dog's when you post pics why because I never seen them nor have I hunted with them hell for all I know your a 10 year boy typing behind a computer why cus I don't know you so don't talk about me or where I hunt or how big or small my dogs are or the size of pigs there are If you never bin there and I said we had big dogs but I never said that every dog we had was 150 are dogs average around 100/110 I have a shepherd in my kennel that is 86 pounds and he's 7 moths old so don't worry about asking me anything I have nothing else to say have fun with your curs(that you SAY you have) and I'll go on about my business

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And look up life's a boar 7 so you see how us islanders that catch baby pigs start our dogs off a 4 moths old he's alot older then me so maybe you'll trust him

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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160924/1e95d1f03a7815d5a5f39ff7008a622c.jpg) that cur is 1 the shepherd is 7 months

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Bout time you realized all that

There was supposed to be a smiley face....just pickin at ya

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Well, my common sense tells me that big o and many like him have most likely been working dogs for longer than you have been alive. He's seen big dogs, leggy dogs, short dogs, small dogs, hounds, curs, bulldogs, etc. And more than likely the vast majority of crosses that are/were being done. You sir, may be an expert on your dogs and style of hunting, but when comes to choosing a teacher on dogs working and hunting livestock would it be prudent to choose a teacher that's lived it for 40-50 years or one that has for 10-20 years?

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Sorry it took so long for me to come to my senses  :P

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"Big dogs and thick brush myth"...I have been told by more than a few dog men that the best dogs to work all day and every day are less than fifty pounds...they eat less, they can maneuver better in the thick brush and are generally more agile in tight quarters and hold up better in the heat...I agree with the logic...I personally like dogs a certain size and anything past that I would cull...now I am more lenient on account I am not focused on purifying and improving on a bloodline...my main interest is in having and retaining decent dogs at this late in the game...cost too much money to do it how I bred my dogs at one time...

I like a certain size dog...I have said it many times on here...I use football players as the example for the dogs I try to breed for or acquire...

They would be the middle linebacker of the football team...not the biggest but big...not the strongest but strong...not the fastest but fast...when they hit you...you know you've been hit...

oops...I left...not the quickest but quick...and not to be confused with speed...

Average Grey's 66-88# Average Sheppard is 66-88# Average cat 50-75# Average whippet 15-30# These are male's averages Blacks and Hairy Holders  crosses are much larger breeds and they average 75-100# this what Hairy Holder and Black told me And you're not going convince me that a 4month old dog's finding and catching rank boars.I'm sure you're a great guy and I believe that your family catches a bunch of hogs in Hawaii and that your family line of dog's are good dog's and I am sure that you could bring them here and catch plenty of hogs in thick country and open country.My point of my original response was that I hunt with similar dog's but I'm not blind,I understand that different places require a different dog to hunt it in the most efficient and effective way.Like I said I'm sure that the finder holder type dog's could catch hogs in these places but a casting type dog that will bay and then relay on the pack works better in certain situations just as a striker catcher works better in other's.I cannot help but call b.s. when I see b.s. sorry Bud lol.

No matter the dogs size, they all have a hard time keeping up with a hog in really thick brush, briars, etc. If ur dog can run a 50lb pig down in really thick briars, you have an extraordinary dog. i don't care how old you are, no one has hunted in every situation, with all the different breeds and crosses. There are too many variables. Conversations like this really show folks level of intelligence.

Yep...many different scenarios...even a 200 lb. Boar hog...they bust through that brush like a hot nice cutting butter...and the dogs fall behind working the track...that is a big disadvantage...that is why we sometimes have long races...that is why many dogs have mt cur are a dash of hound bred in them...

Many hunters like cur dogs that if they don't stop one right away to give it up and look for another...this type of dog requires lot's of roading or the hunter walking many miles to put these dogs on hogs...

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160925/51d186750befd33c648e3a9f1558f2cf.jpg)never said that pup found this pig and in the other post I said two pups and on holder I should have said to pups and one finderholder my fault second the size of a dog also depends on the breeding so if I take a big grayhound bread it to a big Sheppard chances are the pups are going to be big then I take that cross it with another big cat then cross that back in to each other then put a little wippet in to the mix chances are if you breed big dogs to big dogs the pups will come out big we only would breed the biggest to the biggest then I think it got to close cus the pups started coming out weird so when and breed them farther apart like you are talking average we were trying to breed above average and I would think some with as much knowledge as you are trying to breed above average dogs also if you want size your not going to breed a runt if you want long distance your not going to breed a dog that stays by your feet if you don't want number 2 dogs your not going to breed skates (culls) that cat we put in our line was almost exactly like judges dog but ours had a little longer face my dad just put him down a few months ago cus he got so poor we got him in 2000 I think it was and he was finding pigs good in hawaii just took him some time to get used to hunting the mountains he was from tx just don't know where

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A hound is bred to take track, move it with steady line control and pursue their game till the animal decides to bay or tree.

A collie is bred to be sent to cattle and sheep, judge the intentions of the animal who wishes to stray and compensate for the animals movement by eye contact, intimidation or even thru the bite when necessary. They know the animal belongs either in a group or where the human wants it to be and good ones will die to do the bidding of their master

A Pit Bull was bred to be matched in the pit with another dog, to engage, fight and remain fighting thru pain and distraction, to be ever willing to continue the fight until he or his opponent is eternally defeated.

A Labrador is bred to retrieve downed game birds, thru the tall grass of an upland field or the icy waters of winters duck spreads. They have the undercoat and the mental determination to fulfill their role and the intelligence to respond to complex commands

A sight hound is bred to hone in on movement, rapidly pursue and outpace its quarry and take them down either to kill by themselves, with a pack or to hold for the handler to dispatch.



A cur dog is none of these things, and all of these things, but to argue that curs as a whole are better duck dogs than Labradors is as pointless and futile as arguing that curs are better "finder holders" than the dogs who've been designed for that task.


Proper Texas style cur dogs were designed to tend to stock around the home, and be an improvement on their owners eyes, ears, nose and athletic abilities. The use of a cur stock dog was to be available when needed, to leave ahead of its owner, find his animals wherever they are, gather them together thru using the animals instincts to his own advantage, then help the animals to calm down and settle into a group waiting the arrival of the owner.
Once the owner arrived he could account for his animals, catch unmarked ones out of the group to work them while a few good dogs kept the herd together despite the rising stress of the stock. The owner may then choose to throw some salt or feed to the stock and call his dogs off and ride away, and the curs had better be smart enough to leave the bay and return to his horse once called. Or he could send the dogs to the front to lead the stock as he went around the back end to push their "personal space" boundaries to get them to moving the direction he wanted. Once the group was moving, the curs were to allow them to do so, but to help control their speed and direction, if things got out of hand, the owner could signal the dogs to stop the herd and settle them down again.

See, lots of the above traits went into the creation of these "cur" dogs, but not everyone these days understands the dogs and their instincts, so you end up with people dead set on "my dogs are the best at xyz, but xyz just happens to be a thing that abc dog was literally created for.
I'm out of time and will expand further in a bit.

What I meant to add to that is that what makes a better "hog dog" is dependent on what you are looking for a "hog dog" to be.

If you want to find a big boar hog, but you pay no attention to the hogs habits, you honestly don't know where hogs go, what they do, when they run, when they sleep, only that you see a track right here and you want a dog to smell it from right here and eventually find the hog and once it does, you don't care how long the dog needs to chase it, you just know you eventually want to catch it, then STOP insisting that curs as a whole are the dogs for you! You are in need of a hound even if you don't know it and if you breed curs long enough, your curs will eventually be hounds anyway. I.E.; Plott hound history.

If you know there are hogs where you live because you see them all the time, and you could easily shoot them but you really would rather catch one or even several of them with a few dogs each trip, then running straight up catching dogs is probably going to work just fine for you, no need to reinvent the wheel, just use dogs already made for that or you'll end up breeding curs away from all their other traits and watering them down to simple sight casting or short winding running Catchdogs. Why? Those already exist.

If you want a hog dog to absolutely hate a hog with every fiber of its being that he will lose his ever loving mind once he catches up to a hog and bay so madly that he pays no attention to what's happening around him you will easily accomplish this goal and you will routinely have to put your dog on a leash after every hog and drag them away from a caught hog, load them up and drive them away until they calm down and forget about that one that's tied so that you can go back to hunting. 


Once you see the type of curs BigO and several other have produced doing the job they were created for, in the hands of a man who knows how to use them right, you'll understand why there's no better all around hog or stock dog. Seeing subpar "curs" in the hands of every Tom, Dick and Harry with a dog box, it's understandable why you've decided Finder Holders are "where it's at" and honestly, if I'd never known real Cur Dogmen, I'd probably be right there with ya.

Hope you all are having a great Sunday, blessings to all.

Excellent posts there T-bob... :)

The one thing l will say about the average stock will be a cull...just as any other breed...

I have seen to many not have the nose or bottom to be hog dogs...but the ones that do can be awesome hog dogs...

I don't care what performance animals that are being bred, only a low percent make top of the heap type of animals, weather its hunting dogs, race dogs, race horses, performance horses or whatever performance animal. The nose on some stock dogs was lost because of smaller improved pastures and you didn't need a dog to go find animals in big wooded places. If people had to go find then drive cattle 7 to 12 miles to a pen, they would cull most of the dogs people think are stock dogs. The quarter backing alligators would make driving cattle a mile an all day job.
   The same with every running dog I've seen. Some can run faster than others and some do good to run 35 or 36mph. That's still fast enough to catch hogs.
    People use to come hunt with me and say, man you got good dogs, and I'd think that's because you haven't seen all the sorry and mediocre ones. To me an average dog is like a fast horse, he will run just fast enough to lose your money, because a race horse will out run every time. Every breeding program tends to gravitate to average over time and some crosses work and some don't.

I think dogs as every thing else get better in time. I think the main reason is we have less time then 30 40 50 or 100 yrs ago. If you look at the finish product they look better to. I truly believe that this as most things was achieved due to the need to have things done faster. But I can see how some things were done away with cuz they just weren't needed as much. Just like in 40 more yrs people be like they was doing what


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Well...my grandfather and grandmother road a wagon behind mules or horses 12 miles to town and my dad his fine horse alongside...by the late 40s my dad purchased motor  vehicles for getting back and forth to the farm/ranch...did all that after WW2...the mules went by the wayside and tractors replaced them...we evolve according to the new technology at hand...

I Remember the first computers at work...the boss said he was going to air condition the place for us...found out later computers need cool air for the electronics and of course low humidity...a win win...no more fighting mosquitoes...about that microwave ovens hit the scene...and Mobil phones soon after and they weighed about ten pounds...

And where I grew up it was mostly brush country and I could run my dogs any direction from the doorstep...and now it is cleared farmland as far as you can see...

yeah lot of folks do that here as well.        I grew up on a cattle Ranch were cow dogs were apart of  life and work.        I'm very familiar with cow dogs.   many different breeds and purposes.    example: boarder collie  vs blue laceys.      two entirely different styles.          Cow dogs are much more than pig dogs.    You can take cow dogs pig hunting  and get along well but your not gonna get along well if you take pig dogs to gather cattle.    I could go into a 3 page report about this and actually already have on this forum once already but I'm just gonna leave it at this.    if your interested in what I said about cow dogs, go back into the archives.   

Your common sense tells you what makes a teacher better than another is years spent doing it?    Jesus was younger than me when he was crucified.    Do you think others are better teachers that preach the same message because they are older than He was and as a result been living it longer than He did?           

I've been told by a bunch of dogmen that your as fool of crap as a septic tank.     I have high suspect you haven't caught 5 pigs in the past 5 years less you have tagged along with someone else.       
There are all kinds of dogmen.   pit guys, border collie guys, greyhound men, bird dog men, lab guys, finder holder guys, cur bay dog guys etc.         Just cause I say I know some good dog men doesn't men they are qualified to be used as references on certain breeds or styles.
 Just because you can say you know a dog man or two doesn't automatically make them qualified to speak on certain things.      I strongly suspected you fudge the truth a little but I think you do this unintentionally and are unaware

I have enjoyed my time here on the forum but I think my time is about up.      The reasons I have been on here have  evidently been full filled.   I still had some things I would have liked to have shared but I'm being directed to use the time I spend on here to review and study in preparation for things to come in my life.
    Just cause I'm leaving this forum ( for how long I don't know) doesn't mean I'm slacking off on pig dogging itself.   Actually I forsee a lot more of it and am getting more work in some really good places.
       I sure don't mind talking dogs on a personal level to individuals via texting or phone calls that are curious about my type dogs or my style of hunting  but I'm not gonna be coming on here anytime soon to do it  but hopefully later in the future.       
   To those who visit this forum in the future  and go back looking in the archives scratching for information on finder holder type dogs or stags, your very welcome to reach me at 940-634-0811, if you would like to visit  with me eventhough I probably will not be an active member of the forum.       Happy hunting.
              in closing I'd like to leave yall with this.      If you believe what others say about you or are negatively influenced by them, then what you can accomplish and who you can be, will be limited by others.

Well be careful not to fall off that high horse your riding.


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 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D black if somebody happens to catch you talking dogs  to yourself in a dark closet tell them to mind there  own business ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D     I do .....

I keep learning every day. Today I've learned that you are offering a comparison between yourself and Jesus Christ as a teacher. Drawing from your comparison, one can only conclude that you believe you are omnipotent when it comes to working dogs. Common sense tells me you are most likely full of number 2.

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Wow ! never thought that talking dogs would come to this.Wow is all I can say!

GOOD, BYE!

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you speak as if your dogs can do it all...you did have a weak moment and said a few things that were somewhat negative about your dogs...I will say this before you leave...I haven't been around your dogs but I can tell you how your dogs work probably as well as you can without me ever seeing them hunt...they do serve a good purpose in the right conditions...but your dogs in the thick briars around these parts will have a low percentage of caught hogs...the reason is that most hogs will be very close to thick cover...yep...they will get lucky now and then...take one by surprise...and if the hog runs to the thick briars they will run it for a little while...and if the hog is dog smart it will not stop and the dogs will never catch it because they are not track dogs...they will give it up shortly and they might mill around and wander off and like a blind squirrel they can sometimes stumble across a pecan now and then...and with that one instance your dogs are free casting/hog trailing machines...and as far as winding I do believe that they do...but in the thick woods where there is now wing they can not wind a hog unless they about stumble on one...

and your bloodline...how many calls to you go through to get good dogs...and having to find out after 2 years if your 110 pound dogs will work is tough to deal with...but of course the trainer that you are...there won't be any culls...

Like I told you before...you are unique...it is a good thing there aren't many like you...there is a reason for that if you believe in evolution...

you seem to attack anyone who has their own ideas/opinions and theories...you like weak minded individuals that just might listen and look up to you...

if I were only in it to for hog numbers I would consider finding 2 large catch dogs with decent speed and one top of the line cur dog with stock dog sense and free cast/rig or road him...when he went the range boundary I would implement I would tone him back whether he was running a track or a hog...that I am sure would work but for me it is not about numbers...it is about a certain type of dog that hunts/bays/stops a hog how I like...that is a challenge...

yep...go ahead and keep mouthing off as you always do...more and more folks are starting to figure you out what I already know about you...

I personally have never seen a pig outrun my cur dogs in an open field. The dogs always catch up with them. No, they don't physically catch them but they always catch up with them. I don't think my curs are exceptionally fast as my Stags can definitely outrun them. Maybe the pigs in my area are just slow??

that must be it... the pigs are slow...  ;) :D

What have I been missing! !!

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I just read through the post and have to say. Hahaha.  I went to public school so I didn't have a choice on teachers.  I did realize though I will have my choice  of who to learn from one day. And it's started with old dudes then dudes that just look old..If you meet the above required prerequisite then I'll listen.

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