EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Just curious here. We have some older line black mouth cur dogs out of the original Re Taylor dogs. Any of you guys hunting these lines? I hear the names Clue Anderson, Ben Jordan, Bo Nutting, and Bob Owens a lot in my line of dogs.... wanting to hear who all has some of these lines and how they hunt for you. Cow dogs, hog dogs, don’t matter to me.


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I have a Ben Jordan male. Honestly my best dog. Was almost a cull until around 2 years old. It's like a light switch went off. Great nose, loose baying by himself, more bottom than I like sometimes but he's a true hog dog.

All the names you mentioned, except Taylor, have dogs that are all line bred to the same dogs. That would be a cross Ricky Driver made in the mid seventies. The ones that made the cut here were hard hunting, cold nosed, fast track dogs with deep bottom. Did they all make that kind of dog, no. Some of them were slow to mature and some would go through a spell at two that would make you want to cull them. Many of them were too dam smart for their own good. They would get ahead of the handler if you weren't very careful and get some bad habits.

I agree 100%. I went hunting with a fella who has a good line of Ben Jordan's and had to have one. At times I regret it but my best dog.

I got those Jordan and bo lines in my dogs. Not every ones cup of tea but they can be good

i got my start of dogs from clue ,  my cowboy x sue pups go back thru ben's dogs and was told they went back 60 something times to the big boy x blondie cross ricky driver made  . they are natural cow n hog dogs with no tree and very little trash in them .

         they were bred to use by people running cattle and hogs outside ( freerange ), not for papers or pecentages of a so n so male or this such n such bitch .

    not all of them make the cut , them oldtimers mentioned have killed enough culls to fill up one end of the grand canyon  ! i've culled a few myself , but the ratio is pretty low  .

Yes, I’d say there are a few culls, but most of em have made good hog dogs! I’d be really interested to hear some stories from some of these old timers



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ive had great luck with the line bred ones, including dr long from A&M, weatherford ben off tank male or lippy female, and deep east tx rathky (spelling?)

         they were bred to use by people running cattle and hogs outside ( freerange ), not for papers or pecentages of a so n so male or this such n such bitch .

    You said a lot right there, and they don’t come with a sales pitch as long as the mighty Mississippi or any “hall of famers” just good honest dogs bred for production instead of profit...


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i've had 2 fbmco or whatever bred dogs that came from over east of me  that were TOP NOTCH  out of the rarthkes reno dog  , grandsons of weatheford ben.  i mean they would go hunting , find cattle or hogs and  stay bayed .  didn't have to wear out a horse gittin to him but when he he saw you he'd get rough .

 i've seen abunch more of them foundation dogs since then that wasn't worth the bullett it takes to kill em . i reckon when you get to selling them at a 1000 dollars a pop a guys eyes get cloudy .

but lets forget about all that and stay with the original idea of this post  popo

Ben Jordan ran cattle and hogs on 80,000 acres of mountain forest in eastern Oklahoma's Kiamichi mountains. Many times they would go to find and gather cattle and find a bunch, bay them up and leave a dog or two on them and go on and find another bunch. Before they could drive the two together, they would run out of daylight and have to leave the dogs bayed and come back the next morning, then drive them several miles to the pens. They would gather hogs the same way. Ben told me he had one place where he had to drive cattle twelve miles down a gravel road to the pens. That rock and shell would flat eat their feet up and said that old Henry was the only dog he had seen that could do it today and turn around and do it again the next.

yessir , if ben would get on here he could educate alot of folks ....   most wouldn't even know how to listen .



    he probly knows more about handling bad cattle in rough country than  anybody alive . and he also drove and penned hogs with the same dogs  .

    i could repeat some stories i've been told but i'll wait for now and let others type .

and bigo wasn't henry a litter mate to punch ?

Bigo...I have heard the same stories and can believe it. My Jordan dog will go and go and go. Never quits a hog. Would love to hear some old stories. Sadly in my neck of the woods we will be the old timers one day as we are the first generation hoggers in the show me state. Would love to find a Jordan bitch but havnt been successful.

Yes they were litter mates.

cmwhogger   i knew dean voit 20 years ago he was hunt;n  plotts by  mule in the national forrest around table rock  on hogs ...... i gave  him some russian hogs  when he was  down here .....probably not  many but there;s been a few hunt'n hogs a while in the show me state ...

I have heard that name. I'm in the southeast in the Ozarks. All we kill is Russian. Never even a hamp or spotted once. Have a good friend in the western part of the state that kills some Hamps and spotted hogs. I guess maybe I was wrong about the generation thing lol. I do know we are covered in hogs and getting to be more hunters starting and quitting. Until conservation traps every pig like they say. That is interesting about dean volt. Maybe being around table rock I assumed he was from Arkansas

I apologize for getting off topic.

all he caught was russian hogs ... he said he hunted  a  park around table rock lake ......he had  some perty pictures  of hogs bayed  on rock cliffs ... ahh  who cares  if we  get alittle off topic ..hahahaha

National forest covers much of the southern part of the state.  More public land than you can imagine. Mainly all Russian hogs. I have lots of pics. The bay's in the big open hardwoods are spectacular and pine groves. When you hit the clearcuts and swamps things get sketchy. Some prairie hunting but usually is only good in spring. I enjoy hearing about the Ben Jordan bred dogs, I also have old stock mtn cur. Rougher and shorter range.

mine have  old stock mountain cur  in them .......  perty much all deer leases  here ... mostywa's here don't  like dogs

We ain't no longer allowed to hunt state land but national forest is fair game. I have 4 mtn cur. 2 of which are old stock and all catch. Short range winding dogs. I don't run a bull dog. Everything is caught with curs. Is there a rough line of BMCs and if so how hard are they to get ahold of. I have a Carnathan bred or Bruno bred (confused on that ordeal) which is supposed to be suicidal but as of yet is definitely not.

alot of them foundation dogs are pretty rough . some of these dogs that the original post was made for can be rough .   when working cattle i find out how many head and how wild or spoilt they are before i turn loose then i decide how many dogs i need and how to match 'em up . 

 i've bayed yearlings without a dog even totching a cow , and i've seen my dog catch like a bulldog on on a cow that thought she wanted to get away .



i've penned and caught cattle around here that everybody said could not be caught , much less penned

but there are several that know more than me

BigO, maybe you or
Clue or someone may know,  how tight bred were the original big boy and blondie dogs, if they were any kin at all, they seemed to be a pretty prepotent pair that were put together


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I think all the old lines of east Texas dogs were more closely related than most people realize. The Big Boy dog belonged to Bill Bay and was by a black Woodruff dog that was by a black Woodruff dog out of a yellow Hutto gyp. Big Boy was out of a leopard Canon gyp. Blondie was by an Orin Granberry yellow dog and out of a Culpepper ranch gyp. The Culpepper ranch was around Rockdale Texas. I found out not too long ago that the Culpepper gyp and Owens Liz, the mother of Henry and Punch, were related and both came from the Rockdale area.

I know a lot of guys are pretty scared to go in close but a ton of these old timers would do some tight breeds, then outcross it a little bit after. It doesn’t take much genetic variability to keep the species thriving.


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to gritty,rough,catchy ... is the most common problem we have/cull for with our bmc's. got 2 start these line bred wb,dr long,rafky,cowboy dogs early if you dont want them to be to rough. Cur dogs are susposed to bay imo, i dont mind them catching 150 lb or smaller but dont get cut etc and wait on the cd imo

A good stock bred cur dog has to be able to hold up or "stop"  the roughest of the rough, and then have enough sense to know when to come off and "bay". They will demand cattle or hogs undivided attention. Total control dogs ;)

If you were driving cattle more than a short distance and had some rough dogs on them running back and forth in front of them trying to bite anything that barely stuck its head out, how long do you think it would take to cover just one mile. Some folks use them kind of dogs and have to call them off to drive cattle. What if you were in thick woods and couldn't see the front cows, what good are your alligators you have to call off then. A good stock bred dog in this country can get as rough as any dog alive when its called for but know when and how much force to use. They will lead out and give the cattle room to move out at a good walking pace and cover some ground, making for a shorter day with less wrecks.
  The same kind of dogs work well on hogs. Hogs are very intelligent and learn very quick, if they stand still the dogs won't be trying to bite and grab, but will put the ivory to them if they act like they won't to leave. What if someone had a sharp object and punch you in the rear all the time, no matter what you did, how long would you stay there and take it. What if the same sharp object was used only when you tried to leave and they poked you in the chest and left you alone when you were still. It wouldn't take me long to park it. I will agree that hog hunting is more forgiving to dogs that are real rough.

Reading the scene....

I was at a baying contest and at the end they turned in 4 Catahoula pups on a good sized boar...I could tell these were rough  6-7 month pups...what I was reading before my eyes was that the boar was reading the pups...he knew if he ran the pups were going to catch him...so very carefully he sat down and the pups just bayed...I very clearly saw what and why the Hog chose not to run...and I clearly saw what the pups would have done if the Hog decided to run...

Bigo...you are right on...that level of performance rides a fine line...

i've had some you could bay and drive bottle calves with and that would also catch a ton bull and lock down like a bulldog .

Something about a good cow dog that never fails to amaze me every time I see it is how they can get as rough as needed to bring a run off back but if it happens to be a pair that breaks they’ll never even look at the calf much less catch it. Even the young dogs that I start I guess the only explanation is intelligence

thats intellegence  ;)

yessir , but to get intelligence  like that in dogs it takes years and years of  breeding , using  and culling . i just am lucky to be able to get aholt of what i've got and try to keep'em the way i found'em for my boys .



them fellers probly killed more dogs than i'll ever use .

The very reason when I decided to embark on this project I’m brewing up that I finally settled on the family of cur dogs I currently have and to be the foundation on which im going to breed around and that is that stock mentality, apply just enough pressure to get the game to stop and hold and be rough as necessary to stop it when needed, my only problem I’m seeing and not really to huge of an issue is that they can be a little to loose baying once they’ve been cut up good a time or two, more so whenever they’re solo, when there’s a few of them together then it’s not that big an issue, I think that stock working mentality/trait is something way often over looked when breeding cur dogs...


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A lot of the difference of opinion on strains and styles of Cur dogs comes from different time frames and cultures or areas of the country. The lines of Curs that this topic was originally about were bred to find, put together, bay and "lead" stock. Some places Cur dogs were all about circle, bite, and call off to drive. Two totally different styles. The older generation with the lead dogs used on hogs used 1 or 2 dogs to find bay and lead hogs, if a dog killed a pig, or caught a hog out of a bunch "without being directed to" he was immediately killed. Those hogs were part of a hungry family's living and a dog was supposed to help them make a living not mash the life out of it.
Usually where they originated and were used they didn't find 200 head at a time but smaller groups of cattle and hogs in real thick rough country that were going to be driven for miles not a few hundred yards, nor with a big crew of people helping.
Ben Jordan had pretty much quit messing with hogs by the time he got into this strain of Yellow dogs, prior to that he had a good strain of Leopard dogs used on cattle and hogs, but lost out on them and "finally after a long search" found these yellow dogs that suited him. "They were like the Leopard dogs he had lost out on".  BEN JORDAN DESPISES A ROUGH DOG.
I know most of you folks would never believe that hogs today can or could be driven but if you could find a pocket of hogs that hadn't had modern day hog hunters in them with a bunch of rough dogs you could drive them with 1 or 2 dogs of the right style, and with a little know how, yes even the heavier Russian cross hogs. I bayed a set just the other day with Plott dogs that if I'd had a Cur dog or two could have been driven. It was 8 or 9 big sows "they were not heavy Russian" that really bayed solid and rallied up a storm and allowed me to go right up to them without flushing. I actually RUINED them by turning the catch dog loose and catching one, then the dogs rolled out and bayed 2 more singles which we caught as well, that group won't ever stand bayed the same again. I taught them they were not safe by rallying against the "predators".
Cattle or hogs that don't want to stop as a group but will stay together will stop and settle somewhere if the dogs don't flush and scatter them in their efforts to stop them. Dogs have to maintain the front end and stay "outside" of the group. The man needs to stay out of the way until that happens.
 most hogs are different today but we have made them different, all of them are just some old sows pig they are livestock in a sense and have inherent instincts that are still in them.
It doesn't bother me one little bit if people disagree with what I have said or think I am crazy, really I find it pretty funny. I don't care how you hunt hogs, I've already confessed to not doing it the old way even though I know how to and what kind of dog it takes.


























' he was killed  immediately. Total different concept of todays hog hunting

yessir clue . ben told me he had driven hogs 12 miles before and penned them .

he said one time he had 8 big barrs driving em of the mountain and they wadded up agaist an old smokehouse . he just sat and wathed em bay awhile , directly one of em jumped thru  thedoor , then another and another until finally he had emm all penned lol .  he just left his dogs bayed and went and got the rig ha ha .


    i'd say that was a good day !

And then there was that style of cur dog that incorporated the two styles you mentioned into one, and were used to actually hunt, catch, drive, and pen truly wild cattle in very rough country. Had to be able to either wind or track cattle in rough woods. Stop and anchor singles or be able to bunch and keep together as a set, cattle that were found. Be able to keep that same "growing" set bunched in those same rough woods, while giving them "room" up front to lead out or being called off to drive. Being able to be sent again and again to hold them up and circle them back into a bunch when they got spread out or to stay up front and lead, depending on how the set was acting. Being able to do this mile after mile, through thick scrub, for days at a time, on to distant holding pens.  Dogs with a fine balance of rankness and finesse and the intelligence to know when to apply either. No "alligators". Just dogs that were in "total" control of the stock they were used on.   Although I myself have actually hunted very few cattle, many of my Kin did it for a living generations ago using cur dogs of this very type. ;)

Someone put a big space and added a sentence to my post ?????

yessir warren , my granddaddy grew up free ranging cattle and hogs in the woods in central florida in the 30's and 40's . their dogs would hold up a sounder of hogs while they caught pigs with a noose on a pole and work them in the saddle .

 when the screwworn epidemic hit , them dogs learned to smell them worms on a fresh calfs navel and go find and bay him and his momma !

 his older brother joined the army when ww2 came along and never went back to the farm cause he was so tired of riding and doctoring for screwworms and sometimes gittin his ass hooked for it  ;D ;D ;D

Screwworms was a bad thing. Them old Cowhunters had to breed "looser" dogs for a while there and actually learn how to throw a rope. ;D Blood meant worms, sure'nuff. I heard tying off hard to an old school McClellan Saddle was a b#tch :)

yeh snd poorfolks didn't have as big and good of horses either  ;)

Them "marshtackies" were not much bigger than shetland ponies ;D

yassir but they had the heart , and the the cattle wasn't as big and heavy neither lol .


 i wish the old man and bigo would tell some tales for us ..........

well i just bred my cowboy x sue bitch to a dr long male , i hope she has a sack full . the last 2 times them pups turned out exceptional .

they'll be garaunteed to do any dam thing you want them to do from treeing bears to blood trackin and bottle feeding the newborn !  500 hundred deposit know , the remaining balance of 750 at birth , should be here in nine weeks . get'em while they last .  O0 O0

Put my up and comer to work Monday. Neighbor is a stock contractor for SE district rodeo events. He runs 30 head of piney woods roping steers out of Louisiana below us. Two came up missing Sunday evening. They tracked them to a water gap that borders a 150 acre 10 yr old cutover that neighbors both of us. They had pushed through and got into the cutover. Sent him in at daylight. 20 minutes later he yips once and goes to baying. He's 487 on my garmin along a small branch that spilts the cutover. Nasty sh#t, but some decent skidder two ruts from when it was timbered. They road to 'em horseback and I took my wheeler around and came in from behind. Got there, and he had the two of them ass to ass, ringing them tight, right in the middle of a two rut that cut the branch. Them boys got a head rope on one and lead 'em up the hill to there gate. Actually went pretty smooth as the other followed behind willingly. One of them boys just paid big money for an 8 week old pup from a Cowman in Virginia. Papered Yeller dog with some TLS Delight in the mix from way back. Although she was not a Blackmouth dog, she did come from my neck of the woods and was a fine cowdog ;) Curious to see how this pup turns out.

Can they tree squirrels? If I don’t let them chase and bay butterflies while they’re pups... will they turn out to be culls? Haha!


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like i said , they'll be GARAUNTEED to do any dam thing you want'em to do .

Haha I've saw pups bay butterflies and dragonflies, but the best "bug" story I've heard was by Ben, when he was a young fellow there was an old man down in his country that had the first yeller dogs in their country "I can't remember the old fellows name" that had a dog with him down at the store one day and was telling the guys he could put that dog on a tumble bug and he would get in front of it and back up and bark, they all laughed and the old fellow pilfered around until he found a tumble bug rolling a ball and showed them that he would do it.

My Lil girl already taught this pup to kennel and she ain't been here 30 min.

 Clue, Mr. Camp gave me a pedigree on Moe and it contained the names of Bo Smith and Van Brock. Then there was Mr. Johnson that was the owner of Ugly. All these are very early owners of yellow dogs in Ben's neck of the woods.

It was a Van Brock dog the tumble bug story was about.

I brought up the chasing butterflies because a fella bought a pup from a famous black mouth cur breeder years back. When the dog turned out to be a cull and the fella called him on the guarantee... the breeder told him it’s because he didn’t let the dog chase and bay butterflies when it was a pup! Hahaha!!!


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Hey Mike my deal is terrapins, if they find and bay terrapins they'll be really good'uns haha.

Haha... mine is snakes!


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the biggest problem i've had with mine is deer . when i send'em and a deer jumps up in front of them they will chase it for a little ways... and then trash on hogs or cattle .  ;D ;D ;D

o.k. i'll tell 1 on jordans henry . mr ben told me he had to be real careful when he turned him loose , make sure he was pointed in the right direction , and i got in trouble for not doing the same when letting bigo's dogs outta the box lol . anyways ben said point him and fire him and then get mounted and he'd find'em bayed somewhere , might be 7-8 miles and it was before tracking systems . said he'd just ride to the top of 1 mountain and listen , and then ride to the top of the next . he would get bayed somewhere .



i don't magine mr ben ever had a traini8ng program . he just done what me and several others do . just raise'em till their old enough to use , see if if they want to  work right, OR die , and then go from there .


i guess it makes a difference i your a weekend warrior or a internet specialist or trying to make a living with dogs .

anyone can cherry pick dogs out of lines ......but  its the consistancy in the lessor  working dogs  i get interested in ....

How good are the bad ones? I reckon that will tell you all you need to know about a line/family of dogs


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i may not fully understand the last 2 posts . and i've not been around this line of dogs but about 20 years off and on . but the ones i've seen are pretty consistent . they either stay hooked and stay in the right place naturally from the first time you turn them loose , or they are straight culls .

i've only seen or heard of very few of them that were culls . the folks before me has done most of the culling already lol

now they don't all make cold nosed deep hunting dogs , but then again nobody freeranges cattle or hogs on 80,000 acres anymore either .


if i was strictly hog hunting , casting from the truck i would need some of'em to operate a little different . but hunting cattle and hogs horseback , either side of a 1/4 mile range is plenty . like i said i don't have to get a horse hot trying to get to a bay if you know what i mean . ;)

 i've had dogs jump a deer and go a good ways till they hit a lone  track and go another ways and get bayed on a bucking bull , get there and his ear might be bleeding but he would be settled enough alot of times to ride up and toss a loop on him . sometimes it goes the other way having to waller him around in the brush till you can get a rope on him . but i could not do without my dogs .

me and another guy went to pen and palpate my heifers the other day . i got 48 on about 200 acres and they was in 3 different bunches . i just took 2 1 1/2 yo pups . they found the first bunch about 500 yds we sat and watched them get them settled a little while when another bunch came to the bay . we started driving and picked up the other bunch on the way out .


it was about a mile to the pen and we never had a bobble with them brangus heifers . never got a horse out of a walk . now when we started workin around them on foot it got western purty quik haha .

 them pups are the first i ever had that if the cattle were settled will start trying to lead them back the way they came from .