EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Anybody ever made this cross?if so what was the back story on the dogs and how did the cross turn out?

   I understand it is playing with fire but it’s already done. Was not on purpose though I had pondered on it, but this most recent litter out of my sketch dog was by an own son of hers out of her previous litter. 4 months old and the little gyp I kept I think has a real shot at being one of the great ones.

  This litter she had 8 pups with one true runt that she did away with in the first day or 2. No physical abnormalities to any of them. Overall the litter looks pretty identical to the previous(shocker I know lol) one which was a straight “F-1” cross. This little gyp of mine has to be the smartest little pup I have ever messed with. She takes 0 number 2 off any other dogs, at 4 months old she thinks she can punk the bulldogs on the back of the truck lmao. Anyway I am excited about her so wondering if anyone else has had a similar situation.


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Slim, years ago we were bear hunting in Canada and my best female Tarbaby came in heat.  I was lucky enough to have her Dad there even tho he was getting up there in age. We bred her to him twice. We only got 3 pups out of the litter but every pup was a top dog. Wish we would have had a dozen.
  As long as both dogs have the traits you are looking for I will make that cross every time.

Ive had several father daughter breeding's turn out great - my lead strike dog now.

I think it’s only an issue when the dogs are already heavy linebred. 

Made the same cross, bred my Ben dog back to his mother, had 4 pups and they all leaned more to the side of the mothers ancestry, I give a pair to a very undeserving individual and never heard anything out of them other than the idiot got one messed up real bad as a young pup hunting them WAY to early just because they would go and do it, the pair of females I kept I gave to two good ole boys I like a lot and both of them are top notch dogs, on Bens top side is bred extremely tight and on Shiloh there’s no line/family breeding so I wasn’t afraid of getting to tight, one of the boys bred his gyp to a son of Ben of another litter and none of the litter made it and I believe they were just to tight and physical abnormalities unseen is what lead to the litters demise...

Slim I’m gonna say something that I don’t want you to take the wrong way. It’s my opinion and what I myself have experienced over the years. I was picking the brain of old pit bull breeder many years ago. We got to talking about my goals as far my breeding plans. Of course line breeding was brought up. He told me that you could do father to his own daughter 7 times before you started having issues (as a rule of thumb). That being said, he told me to NEVER do mother/son. Of course I asked why that was and he was honest, he said he didn’t know. He said that he had tried it with bad results. He too was warned by mentors not to do that particular cross. He just told me that he didn’t understand the difference in it and the father/daughter cross but one works and one doesn’t. I tried it anyway, 3 times. All 3 litters were complete failures. One litter had 6 pups. Of those 3 were born dead and looked premature or underdeveloped. One male was a show stopper in the looks category but couldn’t catch a paper sack. Another male was BAD built and would catch a freight train if he caught up to it. The third was running across the yard at about 6 months old, yelped one time and fell over grave yard dead. The other 2 litters weren’t so much physical but they just weren’t right is the only way I can explain it. You wouldn’t have known they were even in the same family as the dogs they were out of. I know that people have done it and had luck but I’ve heard way more failures than success stories. Your pups smarts sound awesome but I don’t like the no nonsense attitude part. Maybe I’m not seeing it correctly but the quarrelsome nature is the easiest fastest way to get moved down the road. A buddy of mine kept a male puppy out of a litter because he thought it was funny and a sign of independence. The dog almost cost us a friendship because he was a constant problem when hunting. Either he wanted to challenge the bull dogs or he was jumping on other dogs at the hog. He ruined an extremely nice puppy I had doing that. I would’ve never known what it was but got lucky and saw it happen one day. I told my buddy the next time the dog even bristles up at another dog that he was gonna take him home in two pieces. He never brought him again with me. Like I say, I could have the wrong perception of her zero tolerance. If it’s right though it may just be her personality and nothing to do with the particular cross. Like I say though, I’m glad you like the pup and I hope she turns out to be the best you’ve ever had.


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Slim, I did in the beginning to double up on the dam’s genetics. All my line bred dogs go back to that cross.

Thomas no harm no foul. I want to hear everyone’s side of it. As far as her no non sense thing, so far it isn’t what I would call dog aggression, but she is still very young, certainly something I will keep an eye on and something I have 0 tolerance for. 
 
 What I am telling myself or atleast hoping at the moment is it is more or less her being a puppy and playing. She also has free roam of the 1000 acres I live on and she does roam around some. Runs coyotes off, trees squirrels, bays my horse. she hasn’t been confined since she could climb out of the dog house at about 3 weeks old. That changed tonight as she is officially kenneled and no longer free to come and go. I’d have to catch a video of her doing what I’m talking about.  She’s a goofy little pup I’ll say that, and she’s very vocal, she will bark just to hear herself make noise right now, sounds like she’s trying to talk half the time lol.
 
5 of my buddies also got pups out of the litter. 1 is here in beeville and she’s just gonna be a pet. She’s smart and pretty, little more laid back dog but that also comes a little with being a house dog IMO. Another is up the road in Kennedy a male, he’s gonna hog hunt. Haven’t seen him since I dropped him off but through conversation he sounds a lot like my female. He’s with my buddy Nathan carpenter and I trust Nathan’s judgement as much as I do my own. Nathan is excited about him. Another female is at my buddy Rhett back home outside schulenburg. She’s an in town dog, comes in the house some but spends nights outside in kennel, Rhett and me started hog hunting together and she is gonna get a chance to make a hog dog for us. She is real quiet, laid back kinda dog, again I think that’s some of the “house dog” mentality.  Other 2 are with another buddy back home. He’s got a male female pair and also hunts with me. They get turned loose at his receiving pens and they spend all day barking at yearlings and running loose but are kenneled at the pens at night. They are the most people shy of the ones I’ve been around but not coyote by any means. They will get the chance to be hog dogs. And the last male is up in north Texas with CRC which is where sketch came from. He is excited about him and said he’s a spunky little dude. Also going to get a chance to be a hog dog.


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That is the Idea mike. If I can get to where I can have a string full of Dogs just like sketch, I’ll be happy. She’s got a few weaknesses and I plan on making an out cross to help with those as next cross and then cross the best out of that litter back to the best of one of her pups when and if that opportunity presents itself. But overall she is most everything I want in a dog and she has bayed lots and lots of stock and game with me over the last 5 years.


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I have done the cross. It produced the best males I had the pleasure of hunting behind. I did notice the times I did it the sizes of the dog produced were all over the place.

 I do want to ask another question. I have heard it brought up a lot from hog dog people. why would it be different mother x son vs father x daughter? Genetics are genetics or am I wrong?

Northstar that has been my question for a long time. I know people do it both ways and I tried it with no luck. All 3 times were different females one tight line bred, one line bred but not tight, and the other an F1 cross. None of them were related. The only thing they had in common was they were outstanding gyps. The older guys I’ve talked with have advised against it but couldn’t give an explanation why they thought it didn’t work. Logic says it’s the same as father/daughter so why wouldn’t it work? I didn’t for me so I don’t do it. I will do grandma/grandson though. Mike had good luck with it as have others. Maybe it’s luck on my part lol.

Slim I hope she works out. The description of your litter sounds like the old saying “if someone says your a jacka$$, they might be the jacka$$, but if everyone says you’re a jacka$$ then you’re probably a jacka$$!” With everyone having the same opinion of each pup sounds like the odds are in your favor that she is what you think she is. You’ve had some hard luck with your dogs I hope for your sake she is.


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"I believe" there is no difference genetically, I have not made either cross so my opinion is not based on first hand experience. The best  I could explain the failures in the crosses that failed would be the same as any other cross that failed some males or females do not reproduce an honest reflection of their strain, or there were recessive's in them that that when "paired" came out . That and accidental death is why I have always promoted breeding them early, they are not proven producers no matter how good they are on the ground, until bred and the offspring used.
Lets face it, if we could just breed a good one to a good one and be assured to get good ones, and then breed those good ones within the family and make them better and more consistent everyone would have an outstanding dog, and again lets face it, the truly outstanding dogs are rare.  I can't see that there is any particular magic-nor taboo cross in animal husbandry.

That’s very true old man. Just when you think you’ve figured it out you’ll learn you don’t.


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Thanks for starting this one up Slim... I always enjoy reading on breeding from the experienced guys on here. I’ve currently been trying to figure out the game of chess for how to take what I have a tighten it up in to something worth feeding. I have several different ways I can take things between a few of the dogs I have, just not sure what the best route will be as I’m starting with all unrelated dogs and trying to mold them in to my vision of what I want. All of this is currently dependent on whether my 3 pups make the cut or not. If they do not, I’m back to the drawing board.


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Really glad you started this topic slim... I’ve never made the cross but I do have a gyp out of a mother son cross, it was a happy accident I guess you could say it’s out of my crank dogs littermate brother and their mom(she’s a line bred dog) right before she died of old age but she’s never been hunted she’s about 3-4 and I got her from him for a just in case my old crank dog dies before I get to cross him to a few gyps...but I plan on breeding her to my bill dog (male off my crank dog and a full outcross gyp) to loosen the pups up without going another straight outcross
She’s a nice level headed dog just super hyper and a smaller framed dog(my guess is from it being such a tight cross)

Anyone have any tips about how far out y’all would cross to a motherxson cross pup? Or would the half outcross be fine?


O yeah our litter of crank and them was a full outcross male to the line bred dam idk if that helps


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I’m no expert but breeding period is about your goals and objectives. You have to factor what you are trying to produce as well as the pros and cons each parent brings to the table. Was cranks dad line bred from another line or was he a scatter bred dog? If Cranks mother was what I wanted to reproduce then I would breed back towards her. If that’s the case I would probably breed Crank to his niece/ half sister first just because of his age. You could breed her to something else after that if didn’t work. Unless you have him collected you are subject not to have him any day. His age and occupation aren’t breeder friendly so to speak. I also don’t know if there are other dogs out of that line out there that you have access to. It’s digging worth doing. You have to figure in how to fix the holes in the line or their short comings. Can you do it by breeding within the family or will it require an out cross? Are they already too tight and if so what do you base that off of? My way of thinking is as long as the dogs perform and are physically sound, they aren’t too tight. You have to have an end goal in mind. As stated already, there is no exact science or guarantees but in order to get a specific type you have to breed for it. In my opinion kennel blindness is the number one fault in breeders today. You have to be humble enough to admit what dogs are and not let sentimental attachment or pedigrees be the reason you use a dog to reproduce. Performance has to be first.


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I agree with your post but will add some of my beliefs...as we move forward with our breeding programs we should get a higher percentage of good dogs produced simply because we are selecting as best we can from each generation...selecting and keeping the best pups for hunting and breeding is key...and I say breed close to eliminate bringing in too many new genes because that makes a breeding program turn into a crap shoot...

I also think the genes are basically the same whether male or female...the biggest difference is that the female carries the pups and they are connected to her...and they live with her at least the first 8 weeks of their lives...at a time when they are very impressionable and if the female is shy or over aggressive it could affect the pups...

Williamsld one other thing is I’d work and use that female some how. You gotta know if she is worthy of being bred. If she puts up any red flags then you gotta get more extensive. If all she possesses are the negative traits of the line or cons out way the pros then she likely isn’t going to help at all no matter what she’s out of.


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You can say that last part again. I have had some Hellacious luck, and alot of it has been my own damn fault. I have lived and learned though so atleast it isn’t all for nothing. Luckily, I took a new job out of Caldwell. Start 1st of March, and this job will have 0 say so in what I do with my dogs or how many I keep. I got a lot of big plans this year. My dog program of course isn’t the upmost priority, but it’s top 5. Hopefully going in to this fall, I’m back to feeding a full string of dogs I can be proud of.


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The dad to crank wasn’t line bred he was scatter bred just good dogs bred together I know his dad was jam up and so was his grand sire on that side

I have access to the original breeder of cranks mom’s line several male dogs out of it to cross in to later on and I have a gyp at the house that I really like too that’s half the same line as cranks mom too just a different side of it and that’s the side that I like and want to get back to

I was out of town this past fall and crank slipped his collar and made the cross with his niece/half sister and the one pup she had in the litter was a gyp that was real bad bowlegged and got culled at like 3 months for her bad conformation

I do agree I need to hunt her more before I do anything breed wise just got her for a “just Incase” situation but that was prior to getting more access to these other dogs from this line to help with


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Tdog I think that pup came out messed up because of the fact cranks mom was heavy line bred then the mother son cross on top of that

But there’s no history of bad bone disease or anything that I’m aware of on the moms side and I know he’s traced the line back to the 1920’s-30’s and he’s had them since the late 70’s early 80’s


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Just know you can't get out of them what's not in them, and what comes out of them was in there somewhere/back to the salt in the stew analogy.

Old man...years ago I was told you can’t get better than what the dogs are...what you see is what you get...but through the generations I saw more hunt and more grit...so then I realized it is also about what is not seen in the bloodline that can and will show up...and in 7 generations I had 2 chocolate colored pups about 5 generations apart...didn’t keep either one...

There is something else that comes into play and the science is proving it to be true...it is called Epigenetics...the ability to turn some genes on and other genes off...

My dad always said once it’s been put in there it can’t be erased, it’s always there. He said it may not show up this breeding or the next but more likely when you can least afford it to ( like when you are bred into a corner and don’t have many options).


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I agree %100! I think handler sensitiveness and confidence is a imprinted tendency. It is given to the pups very early on and a hard one to fix.

I say do it. You will know early on if it is too tight. First sign is small litters. I think bulldog her and chicken men are some of the best performance breeders and they bred tight as heck.

I have done it few times made dam good dogs but they both where dam good to start


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Williamsd sounds like the pup had rickets most likely and not a genetic deformation.

Is that hereditary? Rickets is due to a lack of vitamin D right?


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Cracker that does sound like she could’ve had the rickets.

Obviously there is no exact science. There are a lot of folks on here that hunt good dogs that have done it and been successful. I wasn’t one of the lucky ones that it worked for but sounds like it sure might work out for you slim.

Northstar I had a similar conversation yesterday about “old school” pit breeders and game chicken men. They were successful for sure. I think you could put race horse breeders and greyhound breeders in there too. The thing about all
of those is that they bred for 1 or 2 main traits. To me that is much easier to accomplish than what we as hunters are working towards because we have to breed for a multitude of traits. The more traits you seek the more complicated it is. That’s just my opinion again though. That’s not to say that we can’t learn from them or that a whole bunch of things don’t parallel each other just that we have more to consider in my way of thinking. The game chicken men were probably the next closest. I asked a VERY successful greyhound breeder once about his breeding strategy. He said that he bred whatever was the going thing. He had access to the best of the best most all the time so if so if flipper bred to shamu was the hot going cross then that’s what he did. He said but the winningest man in greyhound history had a strategy. He line bred for 3 generations then made an outcross then started it over again. His out cross was chosen because of its strong similarities to what he was raising or to try and fix a short coming that his had. It all depended on his evaluation of his dog that he was breeding. I would like to have met that fella.

It's not hereditary and alot of times it's caused by to high protein content in feed it can be cured by switching feed in a couple of days.

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T-dog...quite a few breeders used this strategy...I used but bred my main stud with an outside female that already had some of my bloodline...if I liked the pups I bred a female back to a half brother...only did it twice in 20 years...

With tight bred dogs I bred my main stud dog to his daughter who was already related to him and then bred a granddaughter from that cross back to him...the main stud...I had 5 or 6 pups...all males and they well all good hunting dogs...one was too dominant even as a puppy...I didn’t have that trait in my dogs until he popped up...he was a very smart pup...always scored well on the testing...

I sure wish I would’ve known that prior that’s good information thank you sir!


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Generally speaking if you feed an average quality dog food and the pups are  getting in the sunshine you won't have rickets.    If you are really pushing puppies nutritionally "more often in larger leggier breeds" you can have them outgrow themselves, that is their bones are growing faster than  their muscles, tendons, and ligaments can keep up and it will cause them to be crooked legged appearing to have rickets.

I think that is why there are so many performance and race horse colts broke down, 2/3 yr olds  are too big and strong for their maturity levels. Most of the endurance horse competitions have a minimum age of 5 yrs old. Way back in time they usually didn't break horses until 4 yrs old they were largely range raised not pampered and pushed from weaning on.

I have done with hunting dogs for about 18 years with some success. I pride myself on precent of workers. I just took what was learned from gamedogs and transferred it to hunting dogs.
  I hate to speak on my success but once you have a primary goal then the traits you are looking for stick to that.
The thing forget is when line breading you get more of the good but also more of the bad fraught if they line up.
Greyhound breeders follow game bird breeders train of thought and cull about as much.

I was always told father to daughter and never son to mother. Since my best blood tracking dog (female) got cancer, i was told i should have her spayed. I bred her one last time and bred her back to her son.  Well, all the pups I got came out deformed, mental or physical issues. Kicked myself in the ass!

Jerryg


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There’s 2 forsure a buddy of mine has gonna be alright, they’re baying everything, hogs and cows, treeing cats, and they’re damn salty at 6ish months old on some yearling cattle. I have been using my gyp sparingly, just been hard at it 7 days a week with new job last 2 months, but she’s coming along fine, baying and running hogs with her momma when I’ve gotten to take them. Buddy out of Kennedy likes his male a lot, haven’t check on him a while but I’m betting that boy will get it out of that pup if it’s there to be had. Sketch is proving she can produce quality and quantity.


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https://vimeo.com/567865484 if they don’t turn out to be anything else, they’re good made. These 3 are going to work. These belong to 2 buddies, one of these days I’ll get back to finding some time to jack with my pup and maybe get me a real string built back up.


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Good Looking Pups, and appear to be fireballs. I have often read where folks say the female has more influence on pups because she carries and nurses them, I consider that to be an environmental influence and to be almost completely false. If weaned at an appropriate time she will not have any more influence than any other dog they are closely associated with.    Buuuut all mammals receive their mitochondrial dna from their mother only, so if there are any performance traits attached to the mitochondrial dna they are passed to the offspring only from her which could give the female an advantage. All that I have ever been able to find out seems that the mitochondrial dna is more closely associated with health issues be they good or bad.

As you would hope with as tight as they are bred. These pups are as a whole exactly what this line of dogs have been and are supposed to be as far as build mentality color and attitude. Now only time will tell if they got the handle and hunt that’s gotta come along with all that other stuff If they want to look through a collar past 2 years old


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Every litter of pups I’ve ever had, I’ve always hunted the mom until she was about 3 weeks out on pups. I believe it to be a real factor and somehow the unborn pups get something out of it and it makes them better in the long run.


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Slim…I totally agree…there is a study called Epigenetic’s that was discovered about 80 years ago and 20 years ago the interest in this study started to increase and now scientists all over the world are experimenting with it…the potential for many cures is at their fingertips…
Just one example of many…two groups of male rats were used for an experiment…one group was in a controlled temperature environment…the other group was kept in a real cold environment…these two groups were bred to females that were almost identical to each other in every way genetically, and the environment the same…
The offspring from the sires that were comfortable grew up and had normal issues such as obesity, a high incidence of heart disease and diabetes…
The offspring from the sires that were in a cold environment their offspring which were on the same diet and environment as the other offspring were in, were a lot more slim, less heart disease and less diabetes amongst them…not only that but it carried over for three generations…
There are many more different examples…I like to say many of us knew this but didn’t know how it worked…it is actually mother nature at work…it is happening all around us all the time…
When the pups are really hungry (really hungry are key words) throw a fresh hog head out to 5-week-old pups…they will go crazy on it…all positive influences…pull them off while they are wanting more…that is key as well…
Hunt the mama as you said…the pups will get a big dose of adrenaline from the mamas excitement…she’s inhaling the scent from trailing…just like smoking a joint or a cigarette…except this is hog scent molecules inhaled into the lungs and are transferred into the blood and they reach all parts of her body including the brain…and the puppies get some of this and it is a big positive…

I used to get lots of negatives on this but more and more folks are starting to see the science of Epigenetics…
Epigenetics does not change the genes and the DNA is constant…what happens is that some genes turn on and some turn off…these changes will change how our brain and body responds…if its positive…well we will have better hunting dogs…if negative we will have a setback…
It’s kind of like giving a poor kid a little ice cream once in a while and he will want more…and more…
You give that same kid all he can eat anytime he wants, and he will not want any ice cream after a while…he will be sick of it…a negative outcome…
I first read a story about the trailing and pups not born yet back in the 1970’s…at first I thought the writer must have been on LSD or something while writing the story…but as I kept reading he got to me…hook line and sinker…

I have heard that for yrs I don’t believe any of it. To me it’s just plain silly thinking. So will your son be a better student if wife does math every night before bed. What if she played basketball every day before birth your kid will be able to dunk. Maybe just maybe if she chops fire wood every day until birth your kid will be a lumberjack.


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Well…common sense plays a big roll…
Women that are on crack on hooked will have newborn babies addicted to crack…

Alcoholic women that don’t quit drinking during pregnancy will have mentally disabled children or children with lower IQ’s…

But everyone is entitled to their opinions…

The brood bitch unlike the crackhead or the alcoholic is taking a chemical that goes straight in the blood stream. Don’t get me wrong I believe in good genetics but Epigenetic is nonsense my opinion don’t shoot


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No problem…the science is showing that traits can be passed from the female to the pups and can carry for several generations and the same from the male side…

Common sense tells us that evolution is always evolving but now the science is starting to see and understand that much of it is genetics…that is true…but now they are starting to understand and explain many changes that are caused by the environment whether it is out in the environment or with the types of food we eat which is a form of environment…the environment in our stomach and system…just using these two examples of many that can be staged or created to get a desired outcome…that is how the science is being performed…IMO with this knowledge we should be very considerate in training techniques that includes attentive to the pups mental state during training and making sure everything is positive during training or hunting exercises…I train and hunt that way as often as possible…

Clue, from what I've found on the genetic material that's carried and passed through mtDNA, has a lot to do with muscle control and function, which correlates into athleticism, and working abilities, and it got into a little more detail about a few certain other genes dealing with health, that's a lot of reason why the race horse people and bird dog world has put a lot of emphasis on the females lineage, I'll see if I can find that study again and post the link...

  Secretariat is one of the sires that was involved in a study done by the race industry as to why such on prominent stallion couldn't reproduce a son as equal to or greater than himself, it was discovered that his daughters carried the genes to produce good stallions as equal to their grandsire....

It's hard for someone to believe something that don't have a clue at understanding and since they can't understand then it's blasphemy and bullsh!t, we live in the time of technology in the age of information, where access to vast information is at our finger tips literally, nearly all of us have access to the Internet and the research and information is there at ones disposal 24/7....


Here's an example of EPIgenetics in plain sight every day, if there is no merit to it and it's just nonsense then how do you explain whitetail deer, they're all the same species right, can't mix breed with other ungulates, so why the such huge difference across the spectrum across the country on their weight, body mass, antler size, look at a whitetail from Manitoba Canada, vs a whitetail killed say in the Florida Everglades, ones huge in body and antler mass while the other is spindly built, take that same spindly built deer to Manitoba and feed it the exact same thing as a native deer and that Florida deer is going to continue to reproduce more spindly built deer, why because the genes the spindly deer carries come from its ancestors who have evolved and adapted to make it on what's available in their home environment, now you take that original spindly built deer to Manitoba and continue to breed its offspring for 3 or more generations in the northern environment and eventually they start evolving and changing the actual physical appearance to adapt to the environment, I promise it just didn't happen because that's the way things are, a study was done using wild caught fox who were born wild but had been bred and raised babies in captivity, the f1 offspring were raised around humans their entire lives but we're born from wild raised parents, even being around and interacting with humans from day 1 the f1s were still very much like their parents, the f2s, born from captive raised parents were more friendly and accepting towards humans but still very leery and spooky, the f3s, being the third generation  born and raised in captivity were much more accepting to humans and were able to be handled and taught to do certain task....

Take cattle from far north country that have been bred and raised up there for multiple generations, bring them to the Deep South and they are going to have a hard time, they will adapt and adjust some  but will be hampered by the environment the rest of their lives, in just one generation their offspring born in the southern climate will have no trouble as compared to what their parents did, and the cattle born down from the pair that came from the far northern climate will not face the same struggle, same exact genetics, no deviation from original genetic package but one struggles to perform in a foreign environment they are not biologically designed to flourish and thrive in, then the next generation doesn't have as many problem handling the same issues and the generation after that has even less than the first 2 before, why, bc their bodies are are changing on a cellular level to adapt and make use of the now native environment, cells that were activated and used to function and make it in a northern climate have now become dormant and the ones that are necessary to thrive in the southern climate are becoming activated because that what's needed to survive in a foreign environment, the result is a cellular change in the DNA of the now native cattle, who then pass that change onto their offspring and so on, if all dogs originated from the wolf then how in the heck can you explain the huge differences in all the various breeds, humans don't have the powers or abilities to abra cadabra change an animals physical shape, ENVIRONMENT,Mother Nature is always going to find away to exist and each organism whatever it maybe is going to flex, bend, change, whatever you want to call it to find a way to make wherever it may end up, all this rambling is just the tip of the ice burg, there's so much that is being discovered almost daily on the science of EPIgenetics and environmental influences across of areas of biology, were each our own individuals and have the right to choose to believe whatever we want, if you continue to believe it's just some scientific pipe dream then go right ahead, there's nothing wrong with that, but if you want to put forth a little effort to understand something maybe you'd realize that we've always seen examples of EPIgenetics right in front of us our entire lives and each  and everyone of us is the result of EPIgenetics  ourselves but don't realize it....

In laymans terms, "if you don't use it, you'll lose it", whatever that "it" maybe, and "you can lead a horse to water, (heck even put the trough right in front of him, )but you can't make him drink".....

Simple protein in take Terrain and climate. If a pregnant deer out runs a mountain lion don’t mean it’s  off spring will. I totally understand what there saying I just don’t believe it. The best science on earth is weather science and there just on the edge of understanding 10% of it. Every 30 or 40 yrs that goes by they discount what they previously thought. In the 80ds they said eggs and bacon where bad for you know it kecto diet lol. Most thing are only true if you believe it. I have found that to be the absolute truth in life


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I believe all species evolve. Hogs, they tend to run more now than they did 30 years ago. In my opinion it makes sense. The hogs with the fight before flight mentality get caught and killed first. The next largest group of hogs to die are the dumb ones and then the slow ones. So with fewer of these three types breeding, naturally fewer of these three types are being born. So the flight before fight, intelligent, faster hogs are breeding hogs with the same characteristics. If you turn out a mean, eager to fight boar and he starts breeding sows, some of those offspring are going to be like him and like the sow. Him and the offspring like him are likely going to get killed or caught before the majority of the runners. After a couple generations those fighters are going to be bred out again. Southern cattle taken north where the winters are harsh are just like the fighting hogs. The northern cattle have more hair because the ones that had more hair were the ones that were able to survive. The smart hairy ones lived to reproduce while the less hairy, dumb ones died. I raised a family of catch dogs for years. They were very similar because I selected for type and similarity in style. They started very early and rarely had to be shown where the ear was. I don’t think was so because I let the mother catch ear while she was pregnant. I think it was so because I had selectively bred those type of dogs together over and over. Some studs are dominate but not most (dogs, horses, etc.). I don’t believe the freaks are any different. I think it’s just more obvious because there have more expectations and emphasis placed on them. Their daughters are going to be the reproducers like Goose said. Many, maybe even a majority of offspring are more similar to their grandparents than their parents. It’s exactly why we have to consider pedigrees immediately after we evaluate performance when choosing brood stock. Genetic selection is absolutely necessary to accomplish our breeding goals but that being said I don’t think it’s the same as epigenetics. I’m not sure how removed from one another they are. I don’t consider the examples I used to be epigentic related but plain genetic selection. I’m not sure if I truly believe in a lot of the epigenetic “theories”. I honestly need to do more reading about it myself. I do believe that the mother contributes certain genes to every puppy. That I consider to be epigentic and believable.

I have no basis on which to disagree with epigenetics, but I think the effects it has are minimal. What leads me to believe this is say, horses and dogs that their mother was not used ever, much less during pregnancy, nor fed anything other than a normal routine diet and they still produced quality offspring. I do see things "evolve" but it is slow and takes multiple generations without an outcross of some kind, and it would typically be a change in environment that required certain traits to survive naturally leading to a shift in the genes required for success. Those with the genes to survive and reproduce would eventually be the norm for that environment vs the ones that didn't have the proper genes would not "in numbers" survive to reproduce.

Hi Goose. Again remind me to never get in a debate with you. lol You really missed your calling, you should have been a divorse lawyer.  The reason animals in the north are larger then the animals in the south is called Bergmann's Rule: The colder the climate , the bigger the body mass.  Thought you might like to add that to your repertoire. You were on the money on Secretariat. The daughters out of him were the real reproducers.

I think we have came up with ways to make us believe we are smarter then we really are and I think Epigenetic is one of them. Common sense tells me that. Now if you believe it and want to study it and it’s out come go ahead there are certainly worse things to believe in.


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There is no doubt…the right breeding with the right genes is the best way to breed…genes are fixed just like DNA…you are born with that…that is what we will be so we select so we select accordingly…

Epigenetics is manipulating the environment to enhance the right genes or even turn on dormant genes and turn off or minimize other genes…

We know not to put a little pup in a bay pen with a big boar because if he gets hurt pretty bad then he might never bay again…if we wait until he is bigger we can put him with a bigger pup that bays good on a smaller hog…to increase his want to we might tie him outside the bay pen…once he is going crazy and slobber mouthed it is time to put him in the pen…we work on increasing the want in the pup…that’s the goal…
We do the right things at the right time to get the best from the pups…we want to increase the desire to get the job done…not decrease the desire by making mistakes due to ignorance…

This is how Epigenetics works…we change the environment to get positive results…we been doing this for many many years…we call it training, imprinting the pups…etc…etc…new times have new terminologies…

The scientist now call it Epigenetics…same thing except now they are starting to understand how it works…and they are creating environment changes around tumors blood cells, weather…you name it they are doing it…

The medical field used to experiment looking for a positive reaction from trying different drugs…now there are scientists who manipulate the environment to see what reaction they get and follow thru to see if it is multigenerational…it’s not just medical….this technology covers so many different areas…

We can take our hunting dogs to a higher level…many of us have been doing it without knowing anything about Epigenetics…

I believe I wrote about this story on here some years ago…

we were having a birthday party for my grandson…he was about 5 or 6 at the time…and just now he has finished his 2nd year of college…at party time my other grandson showed up with his younger cousin named Kaiden who was about 4 years old at the time…

During the party kids were playing outside and they all came running in all excited except for Kaiden, he was kind of calm and not saying much…they said Kaiden was eating the Birdseye peppers…those are some really hot peppers so I didn’t think he was…I said he can’t be, they are too hot…but they sounded pretty convincing so I said go get some peppers and show me…they went to get some peppers and were back shortly…I said where are the peppers…Kaiden said I ate them…I said open your mouth I want to see…well his mouth and tongue were red with the little red peppers and also lots of seeds…he looked as if he was eating a lollipop or piece of fruit…just as calm and no big deal whatsoever…I made him stop on account I was afraid he would be sick…I couldn’t wait to talk to his mom…

His mom showed up a couple hours later…I told her what Kaiden ate and she said it’s no big deal…one day when he was sitting in the high chair he reached over and grabbed a jalapeño pepper and started eating it when he was about two years of age his mom said…

She also said Kaiden has been eating peppers ever since…I asked her if she had any theories or ideas as to why…she said she never ate peppers until she got pregnant with Kaiden and had to eat Jalapeños and kept them handy…she said she craved them really bad during pregnancy…she also said she thought that that is what caused him to like eating them…and without feeling the heat…

The environment in her digestive system most definitely changed…common sense says it was a domino effect or chain reaction that many things reacted to the radical change in the diet…

This was a very unique situation that I will never forget and it just made me want to learn more from it…

Some other person might not give it a second thought…

It is the same with our dogs…sometimes we see it clearly and others don’t or don’t care one way or another…that what makes this world go round and round…we’re all different because evolution molded us this way for a reason…if we were or are all the same we wouldn’t survive…

Everyone take a step outside the box for minute and realize that your not going to see any major changes in litters of dogs from one generation to the next in our own kennels in each litter, it's a timely process that has to happen over a span of multiple generations before any sort of genetic mutation starts to take place and even then it takes a trained eye that's looking for it to even know how to notice it, Bergmanns Rule is the most common plain as day example we've all seen and just didn't know it, Judge all the things you just listed, protein intake, climate, such as that, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that all be attributed the ENVIRONMENT playing a crucial role, all of the listed have to be locally sourced from the environment, an alfalfa field in a northern state is going to have a much higher output of protein than a coastal Bermuda field in south ms, you care to take the time to look some while back I posted on here a topic titled for Reuben or something along those lines, it was a link to a show done by HBO called Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel, on that episode that documented a population of people living on the ocean in the South Pacific Ocean and survived by free diving and spearing fish, long story short this population of individuals have physically evolved to match their environment, so much so that it's become genetically encoded to their DNA and passed on to the following generations, that is what EPIgenetics is,  I don't think there can be any great significant change in a short span of time but I do believe that doing the little things like Reuben and others have said before does awaken, arouse, bring out, etc, certain instincts just a little more than their contemporaries of the same caliber and breeding, not so much that there's going to be a noticeable difference that most others besides the man who knows those particular dogs top to bottom inside and out for generations and generations back is going to be able to see, and let's be real, how many men can honestly say that they have that much knowledge of the dogs they own, I do believe that dogs bred, and hunted for a certain type of one particular game for multiple generations will become genetically inclined to prefer that certain type of game over anything else, the research, data, and results are easily accessed if we want to or even if we choose to believe it or not, could be worse there are folks out there who think Earth is flat....

Reuben, I can personally relate to this account, when my mother was in her 2nd and 3rd trimester during her pregnancy with myself she craved and ate ungodly amounts of watermelon and couldn't eat enough of it, could it  be her body was lacking something contained in the melons and it be a coincidence or not who knows but I can eat an entire watermelon in one sitting everyday, and I usually do average one melon a day while their in season and some days will be the only thing eat, I absolutely love watermelon and it has no ill effects on my digestive system like it does all those around me, I'm the only one in my family that never ever grows tired of eating it, could it have been my mothers consumption of them during pregnancy or just be shear happenstance, who knows......

Lol good stuff. I love watermelon myself eat it daily but I am a 1/4 Black


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I would bet your mom was needing some nutrient or nutrients in the watermelon…

Big difference in wild animals and domestic animals.

Domestic animals and selective breeding can vastly out compete environmental factors. You can change domestic animals very quickly. You can change the gene expression of  eye color, coat/hair color, hair length, size in one generation. You could selectively breed great danes bigger and bigger in south Tx.

It would take thousands of years to change a wolf from long hair to short hair. or long tail to bob tail just breeding to wolf.....unless you hybridize with dog.  Then it would not be a wolf anymore. The coyote basically hybridized the red wolf out of existence.

We have mapped the genome of the domestic dog. With CRISPR genome editing you would be able to express ANY trait you wanted. This will be the future in gentics.

Many coon hunters talk about their pups that turn out to be naturally straight coon dogs…these pups won’t run deer nor will they trash much at all and we know most pups with lots of hunt will trash on deer and other game…epigenetics hasn’t been talked about in the circle of coon hunting but I believe the day is coming…

We have no way of gauging the hunt drive because of the things we do to enhance the want to or hunting drive by the scenarios we create…so we can not prove if the greatness was all genetics or also enhanced by epigenetics…but based on common sense from previous examples and well documented studies we can and will see improvement…we just can’t prove it with solid documentation…

examples of well documented experiments…

A females environment can be manipulated to create a preplanned and radical environment change and she can pass on a trait or traits to the offspring females or males or both…and this can be passed from one generation to as many as three or more…depending on which experiment was conducted…

Same thing with the sires to the offspring…the same experiment with the females and males won’t produce the same results…

Some of this research was very surprising to me…it definitely expanded my horizons…

Like I have said before…the best defense is a good offense…breed and select accordingly…

We have no way of gauging the hunt drive because of the things we do to enhance the want to or hunting drive by the scenarios we create…so we can not prove if the greatness was all genetics or also enhanced by epigenetics…but based on common sense from previous examples and well documented studies we can and will see improvement…we just can’t prove it with solid documentation…



That's exactly why I don't hardly tinker with a pup until it is big enough to go, I get a better "reading" on his natural instincts and genetic performance traits. If it is all naturel and genetic he or she will be more apt to be a good reproducer when bred.

That's exactly why I don't hardly tinker with a pup until it is big enough to go, I get a better "reading" on his natural instincts and genetic performance traits. If it is all naturel and genetic he or she will be more apt to be a good reproducer when bred.

I do not see it that way at all…I test for natural ability first and it starts with testing 8 week old pups and then I am looking for the one that tests the best…nothing complicated just keeping it simple…

Improving a bloodline starts with selecting the best pups…selecting those that have a nose that know how to use it…not from training but selecting those with natural ability first…

Natural ability is not just nose…it is the nose driven to work by the brain such as in winding, trailing and ability to locate…when we see those traits in a pup you can bet the brain is driving…thus selecting for all around abilities including the brain…these tendencies are telling us how the brain works in a pup…and one day we will see it in a hunting dog…anything extra is icing on the cake…
Not just in nose to brain but in locating and ranging it’s all the same…we can pick a pup and hope we picked a good one…or we can keep 4 pups that we like and eventually keep the best from those…or we can keep the 4 that tested the best and eventually cull from there…of course it is best to do any of this with an established bloodline…the end result will give higher percentages of better dogs with testing and imprinting…

Your way is not a bad way at all…I just try not to leave any stones unturned..

Is the glass half empty or is it half full? Neither side is wrong…

I turn all the stones as well but at a different time and a different way, typically get real good percentages if I have owned their ancestors and raised them here, largely due to having what been able to see what is  truly natural at an age when they can go on the real deal. You'll be able to solidify a good strain of dogs sooner with that sort of assessment since there will be some that don't  look good as at a younger age but start great when they are big enough to go. They make or break here between 8-12 mths.  Lots of folks would consider that too young to make a determination But I don't want any late starting dogs in the strain.

Really, a huge percentage of the young dogs I am associated with including hunting with other folks that are starting pups pretty much come here winding and trailing, I consider locating strictly a tree dog trait, locating the tree the game went up whether he winded it or smelled up the bark on the tree. If they are winding or trailing hogs when they get to them they have located them, and are expected to naturally bay them. The strains of dogs I have acquired or am associated with are naturally hard wind dogs, I just figured a huge percentage across the board winded well so no need to test for it. But "until" an appropriate age I cannot judge how cold a track he can move nor how fast a track dog he is, nor if he will stick on tough game that's trying to run him down on the ground. I see "lots" of dogs wind a "cold" track that has not crossed the road but is  several hundred yards off the road while driving 30 mph or more, that's why I say most I see and am around are hard wind dogs. Nobody that I know wants a foot print sniffing track straddling dog, I believe it to be the general consensus that folks want one that can move the track one way one time, that he didn't have to walk across to find and if it is a reasonable track get his head up and roll with it, and you just can't judge that at a few weeks old, granted an extremely cold track they will not move as fast as a better track.
There are no dogs here that I have "built" from the ground up and one breed of them I have raised and used for 40 yrs, I sought out a good solid strain of dogs that other smart people had bred up and solidified.

Old man, I think I’m somewhere in the middle of yours and Reuben’s techniques. I
Like to start playing with them early but I don’t rush it for exactly the reason you said. 1 year old isn’t old, it’s still a pup in my book. A lot of times those dogs that come out of the gate like gang busters top out early or even burn out early. Those steady progressing ones will often make the best dogs.


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tdog I did not mean to imply that I expect a dog to be finished by 12 mths old, but actually before that I do expect him to have all the tools in the box and the ability to use them on a regular basis, he must be a contributing factor by then and not a hitch hiker from start to finish of the hunt.

OH AND I HAVE HAD THEM THAT AT 12 MTHS OLD I THOUGHT WERE GONNA BE KEEPERS AND THEY CEASED TO IMPROVE OR WENT BACK WARDS AND WERE CULLED FORM THE PROGRAM.  OOPS THE CAPS LOCK WAS ON, NOT YELLING HAHA.

I do agree selection for breeding is very key, and if your breeding selections are good in a proven strain of dogs you don't have to be real picky about weaning age puppy picks, just grab the one you like or are drawn to. When it's all said and done the "PROOF" is in the puddin and if your puddin is good you won't have need to add or subtract very often. I usually know which pups are my favorites by 4 weeks old or even sooner just by gut feeling. Outcrosses can be very dangerous even if it is to an excellent strain of the same breed due to recessives. One bad cross at a "critical time" can be the ruination of a good strain of dogs. To maintain a strain of dogs for any great length of time you have to keep several on hand.

Old man…I totally agree with everything you said except I like being very involved with the pups at a younger age…

So where in the evolutionary chain of events do you reckon the dog and the wolf became separated, ENVIRONMENT would make the physical change happen much faster based on the environmental pressures present in the organisms life at the time, a naturally long haired animal brought from an environment suited for its phenotype to an environment that it's phenotype isn't suited for, within the next few following generations the coat length will gradual,y become less thick and long, this has been proven in the show cattle industry time and again, for that very reason big time showers in warmer climates  have commercial coolers installed to keep their animals in during the summer months to promote hair growth, cold temperatures stimulate hair growth, and given the amount of time it would take several generations to be born and live out their life span, it would be sufficient amount of time for the environmental pressures to start influencing cell and gene expression, there's more than one documented instance in which a family of dogs having their tails docked at birth, for generations and then in one generation shorter tails begin showing up in litters and if selected and bred for correctly bob tails become a genetic expression, dogs aren't naturally bob tailed so somewhere along their evolutionary time line environmental factors, be it man made or freak accidents, became so frequent of occurrence that a mutation took place,  yessir anybody with any little hint of knowledge of genetics could breed Great Danes or any other animal, to what ever size and color of their choosing, it's done everyday, that's a result of artificial selection and genetic manipulation, now you take those same xxl Great Danes those breeders in south Texas are known for and turn them loose in the wild to fend for themselves and let the natural order of things do the mating selecting  and I'll put my lucky marbles against your buffalo nickels that within 3-5 generations at the minimum there will start to become a phenotypical change in size within the population of the xxl Great Danes of south Texas, from one generation to the next until they level off in size to match and maximize what the environment has to offer them, let's all look at the bigger picture here, all those same things that you mentioned can be changed through selective mating is absolutely spot on, we most certainly can do that and we do, but have you ever given any thought as to how those various differences in coat color/length, eye color, size etc. all came about (in canines only), remember all canines descended from one original ancestor, the wolf, one base genome from which all dogs originated, I'm going out on limb here and say ENVIRONMENTAL INFLUENCES, which covers a wide umbrella of different factoring contributions, it's always been I front of us all along, the scientific community couldn't explain it so they just looped it into the category of evolution, which in actuality is changing to adhere to the ENVIRONMENTAL circumstances....



How does any of this EPIgenetics stuff effect the outcome of our litters, if it does at all, again I don't think it's a difference maker in taking thing to another level in one litter to the next, but just as in nature , only the smart then the strong survive, why are the survivors the smartest or the strongest, because they had that little edge over their competition, enough of an edge to survive to perpetuate that gained edge on to the next generation until that edge it had outlasted it's competition to become a set standard within the species population. By knowing your hounds and kinda knowing what to expect in your chosen makings all the little things that have been mentioned in all of these EPIgenetics conversations, that can and are done along the way of a pups development will eventually add up to become slight edge in advantage over its competition, however slight or vastly impactful it maybe, either way it's an advantage and in a game of life, where the end reward  can only go two ways life or death, that minuscule edge of advantage suddenly becomes game changing, this is all speculative theory and pipe dreams to most who will never raise the number of litters to ever see this first hand in life and that's all cool because the sun still rises and sets everyday just the same way it does for those that can open their minds and  be able to understand and comprehend the complexities and in the same thought the simplicity of the science in front of us...

Please show me this documentation

It is also believed now through genetic research the dog did not derive from the modern species of wolf. They derived from a separate genus Eucyon a coyote type canid. So the domestic dog is a cousin to the wolf rather than an offspring to say of the wolf. Similar to our human ancestors related to chimps and Bonobo's (Religious believes aside to not offend) The wolf also went extinct in North America( It became extinct with the other Megafauna of North America). It is believed the modern day wolf immigrated back to north america  roughly 12,000 years ago across the Bering land bridge....with you guessed it.....man and domestic dog.

It is believe now the domestic dog (via genetic research) came around 20,000 to 40,000 years ago in Asia and migrated around the globe with genetic markers developing with tribes and regions of people.

The Black coat in Wolves and coyotes today are all accounted to to domestic dogs crossbreeding with these animals. There were no black coats believed in wild specimens before then.

Dan Flores has some very interesting information about coyotes, Wolves and Domestic dogs in his books. They are worth the read. As are a lot of the universities genetic information on dogs. This is a good one.


Fossil Relatives & Evolutionary History Columbia University Press, Jul 3, 2008

Sure can and sure will it's called the c189g mutation, a very simple search of Google about this mutation or just tail docking in general will give a very brief history on how this gene formed for some breed ands others it's still not explained, and you taking my word on something is t very good scientific documentation, but I'll add it anyways, old man who lived several miles down the Rd from me raised blue healers for years and years and would dock their tails with a hatchet on a flat stump, one day he had a litter and was about to look them over and dock tails and noticed one had stump tail, he kept her and she never had any adverse health concerns and even produced two pups in separate litters later on that both had bob tails, again you don't have to believe my own personal account, but the science behind can't be denied, I knew another account of a man in Florida bob his dogs tails for years and out of the blue he started getting 3/4 and 1/2 tails on his fami,y of dogs, so if you still wish to know more, again the information is out there if we just dig a teeny weeny bit...

You proved my point....genetic mutation. The only source that mention docking is wikipedia with no reference and refer to it as cruel...you make your own assumption.

To have a naturally docked tail they have to have the mutation......you can cut for centuries if the mutation is not there..... they will be born long tail.

Case in point....

Humans have been piercing ears for thousands of years
Humans have been circumsizing for thousands of years


Billions of sample size....Go to any hospital and human babies are born the way god intended( or genes expressed)for thousands of years all over the globe no matter environmental changes.

It will never change unless there is a mutation in genes.


I am done posting, We can discuss some other time on a hunting trip, your place or mine over a cold beer or glass of whiskey.

Enjoy your 4th with friends and family and happy hunting.

You guys have made some excellent points…
For right now I will stick with crack mama’s and their babies born addicted to crack…based on this I see many potential possibilities…


Here is another curve ball on bob tailed dogs…a dog can appear to have a full tail and be a bob tailed dog…missing one vertebrae in the tail makes it bob tailed…

Keeping it simple…when I was 19 or twenty…I drank a 6 pack of beer and about 3/4 quart bottle of cheap tequila…I about broke myself from tequila because of that one time binge…I still sip on the high dollar tequila now and then because my wife likes top shelf margaritas…it took a long time to slowly develop myself to where it is ok to sip on the better tequila…

As kids every time we were sick with stomach or with vomiting we were forced to drink a 7 up…who wants to drink anything when you can’t keep anything down…

When going through training exercises with the pups I always think about the possible negatives that can set them back…and I stay away from that as best I can…

I also prep the pups as best I can so the training exercises are positive…we want them to want to do the training exercise, wanting to do the exercise means it is pleasurable to them that is key…some people just don’t get the simplicity of what has been said…

So what is it about that bad tequila hang over that made me really not like tequila for years? I can keep it very shallow and say it was just a bad hangover and I just overdid it that night…
But what caused me to not like the smell or flavor for many many years? Drinking responsibly and in moderation more than likely would have eliminated the negative reaction or reactions…

IMO many different hormones went into overdrive…the proof is nausea, headache…just to name a few…I’ll never forget how that smell just wanted me to keep throwing up until it was only dry heaves…some of that vomiting actually came out my nose…all this just made me dislike tequila that much more…lots of hormones going crazy, negative chemical reactions throughout my body and brain…

The years that followed just the smell of tequila was repulsive…analyze the body and brain at that instance…that one negative episode caused all this for years afterward…

Now think of a negative scenario in training a pup…did it shatter its confidence and will the pup recover?


Just think of all the positives when making sure that the few things we do are for the better…the pups will do better…

Of course having the pups running loose and running rabbits and treeing squirrels on their own is hard  to beat but very few of us have that option…