EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

My previous examples of catching in feilds and it's descussion was to set up the understanding for this descussion.     The science behind stopping and catching pigs and the variables that influence the outcome.
    We all I think can come to the agreement that a dog can run faster in the open than it cane the brush no matter what dog it is.
   We all can agree that most pigs started in the open are caught in the brush.        This would imply that shutting a pig down in the open  of any sort " baying or catch" is more difficult, based on the percentage of all pigs started in the open that are finished in the woods or brush.  Why is this since all our dogs are faster in the open and have virtually no obstructions between the dogs and the pig, which would allow the dog to better impose it's will on the pig.
    Well to answer this we would have to look at pig psychology of a pig.    Why will the average pig not stop and bay up in the open for the dogs but will when it gets to where it has the dogs at a disadvantage in the brush?     
                The non conforming pig that takes you around the world is the problem we as most pig doggers face.  These are the pigs to me that were really fun when I was a bay dog guy.  Problem was property wasn't big enough to allow this in many areas,   dogs could get lost, you got farther and farther away from water and med kit, not productive for tournament hunting, couldn't get to bay do to not your permission etc.
    So how do we stop these running pigs that won't conform to the average pig in most areas.  Some areas the runners are the most common.
   Well if your dog can't stop the pig in the open and this is a runner that won't stop in the brush, how your dogs gonna stop him once he hits the brush?      Run him out of air is about the best you can do.
      So it's either catch him or run him out of air till you can keep him bayed long enough to get cd there.  There are exceptions of course but the running pigs generally dictate what plays out and how.
   Anybody see anything about this they disagree with?
     

stopping a pig...

my opinion;

it all depends on many factors as to how a pig will react once he realizes the dogs are on to him.

I am talking about hogs started in the open...

if he has never seen or never has been bothered by a dog he will more than likely stand his ground until he realizes his mistake...at that time he is caught or he breaks for cover...he probably won't run far thinking that the dogs will give it up...depending on the dogs he could be right...some dogs will bay loose and the bull dog shows up and it is over...or maybe the dogs are just gritty enough to keep pushing the hog and the hog will be educated...good gritty cur dogs will hammer down and probably catch them in the open...of course it has to do with how far the pig has to run to reach cover...I believe the average wild pig can reach speeds of up to 30 mph for short bursts of speed...but will drop off between 20-25 mph...my cur dogs can run 28-30 mph and they do not have a problem running down and catching in the open...but more often than not we see a pig or pigs cross a pipeline and each side of the pipeline is pretty thick...so where we hunt the hogs has a lot to do if they get caught or not even with good dogs...if they are dog smart and will not stop and keep hitting the thick stuff the dogs will not keep up because they are having to trail...and it takes a good dog to stick with the track for hours...I am not a finder holder dog man but I know some about most breeds...these dogs will run quite a bit faster than the average cur dog and their chances of catching the hog in the open is better for that reason...if a finder holder is true to his name then it will be a caught hog if he catches it in time before it gets off in the thick briars...a finder holder is supposed to catch if not he is a cull...so any time he is able to reach the hog it should be caught...if the hog makes it to the briars he will stop pretty quick to listen and he probably will get caught by the finder holder if he is not dog smart...if the hog is dog smart he will run and run through mostly the thick stuff...the average finder holder will probably trail the smoking hot track for a little while and give it up...because the few I have seen do just that...they are sight hunters first and wind hunters second...and trailing a distant third...

my observation of wild hogs in the years gone by has led me to develop a theory on why some run so much and and those that stopped to fight got caught pretty quick...at least that is how I saw it in my neck of the woods...I saw that the barnyard looking hogs with the flop ears did not run as fast and they tended to stop to fight more often...the hogs with the most russian influence tended to run more often and once they do they tend to run further...we as hog doggers have done our part in educating them...but that is a minor environment issue...the real problem is that we have really sped up the evolutuon process by catching the slow ones first and so the hogs have evolved into hogs that will and can run for hours...those that survive tend to pass on there genes more often than not...it is called survival of the fittest...

and a huge factor in whether or not you will catch hogs has to do with where you are hunting...open type woods with good dogs and plenty of hogs...it will be a good day...

in the thick thick jungle where the hogs have been dogged and you will be lucky to catch one every now and then...

When I was a little kid I knew where to hunt when it flooded w/dogs or w/gun...knew where to hunt in droughts...

and when rabbit hunting with my dogs I knew where we could catch as many as I could carry in less than 2 hours...and I knew where not to go with my dogs because we would not catch one but every now and then...I had dogs to hunt and jump and had  lurcher types that would catch...if the rabbit made it to cover the small flusher dogs would catch in the briars or flush them out to get caught by the hunters or lurchers...

the lurcher types would not trail much but would wind some...they tended to follow the trailers/jumpers...these dogs caught deer that I would shoot with a 22 on account I liked my dogs running them down and catching...to see the lurcher types really work was when we got on a jack rabbit or deer...they were at their best when they had their eye on the game...

This is really simple to me. If the hogs are aware the dogs are on them from a distance then they run and takes longer to stop. The unaware hog is easly over taken. The running type hog will have to be persuaded to stop if that with gritty or bottom or catch. I have some very catchy dogs two or 3 of them together will catch any hog that turns to fight. And I will say this a running hog is easier caught while running then if it is being bayed 


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I agree...and I will add...a dog that is gritty but won't put teeth on a hog that is holding bay will lots of times catch an ear or a ham to stop a running hog...

...black streak  you got the best ...that should help matter's .... ;D.... each hog is different and the same hog can be different on any given day ...what works  today may fall a little short tomorrow ....  .... caught a big male hog one time  he just set down and squealed like a sow ....we  cut him bayed him another time he damn near killed everything we  had ....you just never know .....one thing is for  sure  tell somebody how  good your dogs  are  and  your  sure  to look like a fool later ....

Ruben i didn't think I was gonna enjoy your post and just dang near didn't read it but I did.  Not bad, I actually enjoyed it and appreciate  it!         I do have a correction for you though about the finder holders.  The true finder holder guys breed there dogs to scent find first and foremost.  Sight is important and so is sound but the scent is first to those guys and their finder holders.  
     I basically have two types of dogs on my yard.  Finder holders and stags, though mine aren't really coyote type stags except 1.  My stags have a large influence of wolfhound, I guess that would mean they are long dogs but but I call them stags.  The term stag has a little wiggle room but not as much as lurcher or especially rcd.      Many many many types of rcd's and categories and sub categories if you really wanted to break things down.  Many types of finder holder bred dogs too.   It's really not fare at all to say a finder holder is best in this situation and not so well in another.   Just depends on the breeding and personal preference. Same goes for lurchers, rcd's, and even stags and long dogs.  These are all loose terms that have wiggle room.  A stag for example isn't a true breed of dog but rather a type.    You have roo stags, coyote stags and pig stags (I made the last up).   My stags have lot of wolfhound blood in them making them bigger, harder, more willing to 1 out a pig and more willing to use their nose to scent pigs etc.        
       Really not far to judge a style or breed of dog off what 1 person has.  Rcd types and their various categories and sub categories are as diverse as the cur dog and hound worlds.       Also dogs adapt to hunting styles of their owners and how one guy hunts half the litter might not be how another guy hunts and the dogs will get used to and adapt or spoiled to certain way and not be as willing to work another way as the other guys half the liter.  I see this in rcd's anyway.
   I enjoyed your post, sorry for the long description of rcd's,  I kinda got side tracked from what I was really gonna say, now this post is soooo long it lost a lot of people's attention lol
 

Good points.    Crop dogs need to be really fast because they have a lot of distance to make up in a limited amount of space.   If I sight hunt the head start the pig had is usually close to 300.  Don't matter to me, I'm sending the dog anyway if it's 600 yards cause they will catch in the woods pretty easy if the race gets in there.       Scent hunting the dogs and the head starts are usually around 100 yards.  If the moon is bright it might be a bigger jump for the pig but the race is shorter because the dogs catch quicker.  On a dark dark night, when they get to pig, it's a running fight for a little distance before they start swinging.     In mature crops, the dogs make a lot of noise running to pigs they have scented.    They know the pigs are there, just can't see them when they get close cause of the tall crops.   They pick up the spooked pigs with there ears.  I catch smaller pigs often during this time of crop hunting do to the dog zeroing in on the sound of the pig running through the crop rather than being able to see what it's now on or any of the others.   
         I've said many times on here that a running pig is a caught pig for my dogs too.  Easier for them to grab a hold of a runner than it is to get the ear of one that's standing and fiercely defending itself.

Well I didn't say they were the best, you did so i better not get ginksed.     
     When I used to do the bay dog deal, I'd have ups and downs.    Catch 3 big rank boars back to back in a night and not a scratch.     Then about get whipped out by one 200 pounder a week later.            Or get out ran twice in a night after having started one.    I'd say my dogs probably were not as good as yours are but at that time, I was hunting behind the best strike dog I or anyone else I've ever known of had ever had the privilege of hunting behind.      Dog did and still does belong to my pig dogging buddy I had then.   
     Since swapping styles and getting the style of dogs I have now, things are much more consistent, predictable, convenient and has opened up new land and hunting opportunities since I can take landowners with me, send the dogs to pigs in a feild, let them watch the chase and the catch and let them see the speed and the efficiency and effectiveness of dogs like these without ever getting out of the feild and when the landowners are with me, they like to sight hunt.   We never get out of the truck, just watch the dogs in the warmth of the truck through the windshield while they enjoy a cold one.  The drive them out to the catch and let them stick it or let them watch me tie it.    If I was to send a bay dog to the same groups of pigs, the landowner would look at me and and say what you gonna do now that the dogs are over on so and so's place.  Most of the land owners have been pig dogging once and won't let you pig dog on them around here cause of the bay that happens on the neighbor.  Landowner seen between the lines and new the pig dogger would be crossing property lines in order to get to bay.   Permission denied.         Permission granted when you show them the efficiency and effectiveness of rcd's  hard enough and fast enough to catch in the feild, not just once but almost every time.  They really like it that you just hunt with 2 dogs too instead of a pack.        Then they are really impressed when you tell your dogs to let go and they let go and then ride loose in the back of the truck with a tied pig without bothering it.      They tend to want to go again and tell you to catch as many pigs as you want, just don't go when it's wet and tear the feilds up.         Sight hunting is done primarily when the landowners go cause its fun for them.           I rarely have an injury to a dog that gets it laid up for a hunt.
   As long as the dog can consistently run down and catch pigs in the open, things should be more consistent on hunts because it's in the dogs hands for a better percentage of the time than if you didn't.          I know you don't give two shakes about hunting in the open, I'm just saying if a dog has this ability, the dog can and will  stop a runner given a fair chance.  If it can't do this consistently,  no matter where the pig is, open country or brushy, the pig dictates the situation most of the time, not the dog.  Referring to runners

I know what a dog can do in a field or open woods means nothing here the longer legged catch dogs with a vest stay tangled up in thickets the shorter catch dogs is the way to go here

If a man knows how to hunt crops and pastures fields whatever he can be very successful with a couple rough cur dogs.its all in your approach using wind ,tree lines ,ditches and cuts to your advantage can bring your odds way up pull up like a circus holding your spotlight on the hogs and you better have 40 mph dogs.Slip up like an ninja after spotting the hog's and any fast rank curs will do. Since we're talking about fields and crops but if a hog's started in the thick terrible nasty and he get out 20 ft on the dog it's all about trail speed and I know that when mine are in a race that hog messed up if it hits a pasture.

I have relatively loose baying, cowdog style curs, they get beat sometimes like any other dog, but them jokers can fly, they get ahead and they are persuasive. The older/ better ones combine speed and experience to bay hogs and they don't have to be cob rough to get the job done.

I don't wanna argue with anybody but ill give an anecdote;

ive got an old bitch who got crippled a couple years ago putting a boar back into a sounder and early this year I pulled her out of retirement purely for her own enjoyment and after about the 7th or 8th hog of the night, she lined out another big sow and was busting butt trying to stop her in the thicket when the sow couldn't stand the heat and tried to cut an open field to gain some distance. less than 200 yards into the field she was bayed solid, when we got to her we realized the bitch had been cut thru the tendon on her GOOD back leg! She had run down that sow carrying herself heavy on the front end, using her crippled leg to push off of! 

Lots of things I have seen, but that one example reinforces to me that a dog don't have to be loose or rough, hound or cur, they just have to "be able", and "want to" more than the hog.

all of that being said, my good buddy Ronnie has a big dog he got from Chad S. by the name of MotherF#?*er Jones who is a Stag/Dogo/pit I think and he is sure worth the name! :D

I wish we had more open country opportunity to let him glide more often because that dog is poetry in motion.

T bob I agree the want to trumps breed and hunting style


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I'm 38 years old and have be hog hunting duck hunting and fishing all my life, we had around 5,000 head if hogs in the woods at one time. These were the half way gentle woods hogs and we could use pretty much any of our hog dogs to bay and catch these out, the ones we didn't pen. But after we got the fairly gentle ones caught out that's when we got to see the real dogs work. Over the years there's about four dogs that stick out in my my mine. These dogs weren't rough but if they got on a hog we caught it, the dogs were a long way from being rough they just new what they had to do and done it. We would usually have a cut our two but nothing to bad.from my point if view speed and little gritty and not having to fight a track to keep it lined out is what done it for me.

streak do you have  so many hogs on the places  you hunt you can see hogs out in open fields every hunt ?  do you run vests ?

This is something that doesn't hold true to most thickets.   There are exceptions to every rule though and you may very well be an exception.      Every small cd with a vest on turned loose to a bay in the thickets with a big athletic   cd always got its butt kicked in getting to the bay by the big cd.    Pit would be hung up by the vest and couldn't push through or couldn't jump over etc.  The big excited cd would use its power and athleticism to get itself to the bay.     Both want the pig just as bad, the big dogs just had the ability to get through the stuff.
     I've seen big dogs that sucked in the brush.  They just didn't like it, didn't like to be in it, wouldn't hardly go through it etc.   It wasn't because they were big they was causing this, it was their mentality.        Same with any dog little or big.     A dog that's never had much experience with briars is always gonna have a learning curve.     To look at things in a holistic manner, many things must be taken into account.      Dog size is one of them but usually this works to the advantage of the dog if it's an athlete.       
    I've seen many pics of people catch dogs on here.    Fat chubby pet pits that look like they sleep on the bed at the owners feet at night.      Soooo many things wrong with this that lead to potential problems such as heat stroke, break down of muscle tissue, lack of stamina, lack of athleticism, inability for the dog to recover quickly for next  catch, etc.    This dog isn't gonna near as good getting through thickets as if it would with a different owner that treated the dog differently.            I have seen several times in real life this same thing with the big cd's people are so high on.   They proud of their big huge cd and say come look at my dog.  You look just to see a big unfit looking couch potato laying down in the back.   Nothing about the dog gives the slightest indication it's physically fit.      I'd lay $ on this dog getting it's butt smoked in the thickets by a little cd.           Most big lead ins I've ever seen were treated like this, not conditioned warriors that could and would live up to the expectations of the owners   blind eye.          This is where they overall myth out the big cd in the brush stems from.  People not taking things in to account and looking at thing holistically.   Plus how many doggers besides us of course are decent dog men out there hog dogging?    I've run into some doosies, and I've seen some good pig catchers that I felt bad for their dogs do to the neglect of one sort or another you could see in their dogs.  I don't mean skinny either

I have about 3500 acres of crop land I hunt and 15 to 2000 of woods and  brushy  creeks.     How I hunt the crops is the very similar to the top two winningest  teams competing in the big pig tournaments.     Since I have spoke to both about dogs or tactics and am still in communication with one of them, i will not divulge on here how I hunt the feilds.    I owe no loyalty to either of these people but I doubt they would appreciate it if I revealed tactics they are using by telling you how I hunt.   I have never even spoke to one team about another nor would I but they both do things the same way basically which is very similar to my style.
    Yes I do run vest on my dogs.     Won't hunt a dog without one, though the guy that got me started with this style of dogs often times only runs a cut collar and is pulling up great finds with good well equipped boars with no injuries over and over and over.  The guy does this for a living, catches I'm assuming thousand or more pigs a year.  Cut collar for them lots of times

I've got two sets of dogs, track dogs and sight dogs. The sight dogs I call "night vision dogs" and I'd be willing to bet your buddies hunt a lot like I do with my night vision dogs. I've got greyhound and pit crossed dogs that once I spot a hog with the night vision, I walk them downwind as close as I can to the hog before I send them. My "night vision dogs" wont take a track or run one in the woods very far if it does make it out of the field. That is how I want them to be though, if they get burnt by one hog we just load up and check more fields. That is how a lot of people are starting to hunt here in Ga. It is definitely a way to catch big numbers, but to me nothing beats walking my bulldog to a hog that my bay dogs trailed, ran, and stopped.

I hunt both ways so I understand why you hunt the way you do, but not everyone has those type places to hunt and have to have a dog that will wind, hunt out, or take a track to trail and find where they are laid up be it 100 yards or 3/4 of a mile. If you've got a dog that is straight catch and sticking with a hog that runs as far as some of the hogs around here do then you'll be out of dogs quick.

Grunt your rcd's play well into my next point I was gonna discuss.         

    My rcd's  (two different types and neither like yours) are bred with many factors in mind other than speed and hardnesd.        Longevity sums it up well.    In order to get a dog to be able to perform like your bull greys do and do more, the must be bred different.  Grey's run out of gas fast and are dainty.      Two things I want to avoid breeding to.  They have great structure (except for the feet on a lot) and superb eyesight that they contribute.     You can get these two things and turn the bad qualities contributed by the gh  into positives if you will use the deerhound and not the greyhound.    Endurance and size that's not as easy diluted plus lot of times they are real hard dogs on there own capable of 1 outing a good boar.       Now breed the deerhound to something a decent size and speed and lead in style hardness to something like a dogo.    Why dogo and not pit type dog? Dogo keeps from diluting the length  of everything  for 1.  Body, leg,  etc.  The structure of the body aids in many things to a good rcd.    Style of vest needed for protection is mitigated which mitigates causing the dog to heat up more so, natural ability to hold a big boar while the vitals are not as easy to hit for the boar, effectiveness at covering more ground with every stride faster than smaller dog (whippet and greyhound both smaller and faster but we are building a pig rcd not a rabbit dog)       dogo  can naturally come closer to matching the speed of a fast pig than a commonly used pit or AB etc.   For everything you add, your taking away something else when crossing these kinds of dogs.  Got to realize this and midagate it.  This is exactly why it's so hard to get an F1 type cross in rcd's to do what a well bred finder holder can do and do it several times a week till you retire it.            Want better rcd's  then breed them better.      I was green in this thought process when I first wanted to use only rcd's to hunt with.  I knew how I wanted to catch pigs but didn't know as much about how to breed for it.   I spent hours talking to a guy that hunts these dogs for a living.  Telling me how it's done day in and day put, what enables it to happen and dispelling the common myths about our misunderstanding of this type of pig dogging or these types of dogs.               Soooo hard to break through to the unbeliever  because they have seen the limitations of F1's and not so well bred dogs used for this type of work.
         Couple all that I described  and then work on the scenting and hunting traits  of the dogs also.    It's way more than most can juggle correctly.  Like I said for everything you add you dilute something else, you got to be able to afford to dilute something before you can add something else.      Don't think of 1 breeding, breed this breeding in order to get the next.    Breed this breed with that and another with another then breed them two together type thinking and get to know people like me with dogs as well bred as mine in order to continue breed to and better the next breeding good instead of diluting to much what you have gained in the 3rd breeding by crossing to dogs that are where you want to be and already have the mixtures established in them and they are just a type of dog now rather than experiments.         

that sure sounds good streak but breeding ain't that simple ....  I been breeding the same line of dogs I started 30 years ago...and all mine  go back to 3  dogs one male and 2 females ......and I can tell you all  these  breedings of crosses to achieve traits would take  you years  to prove  up with those  crosses  before  you ever  become consistant .....I just got  mine bred in the past few years to where they all look the same without any throw backs and thats atleast 25 years  of  breeding the same  dogs ....

If you run a bunch of culls like me that can't even find a pig, then you never have to worry about them breaking bay and running. There for you don't have to stop them... Yeah that's right boys I figured this whole game out!


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I'm 45 and have been working cattle and hogs with Florida bred cur dogs since I was 9. Stock bred, front end dogs that are rough enough to attempt to stop any cattle or hogs that would run from them. Had some that would stay hung and some that would come off and bay after the stop. Situation dictated which dogs or dog I would use. There are some good stock bred cur dogs that will stop and keep a hog bayed without ever putting teeth on it, but in my experience, rank stock will usually run "over" a dog or set of dogs that will not hang on them. With this being said, some stock seem to just be unstoppable until they get wore down. I prefer all my curs to be hard catch dogs when needed. Being able to control their catch is priceless ;)

your right warren !




     blackstreak = l 3 x 10   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

My finder holder bred dogs have 18 plus years behind there breeding.     Plus there are more ways than one to breed.      Best to best or line breeding to name a couple.    Why do you need rcd's to look alike.       These dogs are breed for function not what they look like.    If I wanted to breed dogs for looks, I most certainly wouldn't have bred my finder holder bitch to the dog i did.   

there is more to breeding better dogs than just best to best or even line breeding...

How many generations of finder holders have you bred? just wondering if your dogs are breeding true to the way you prefer to hunt...

Having access to breeders who breed the same type is definitely a plus...

because if you gonna tought about how to breed dogs then  show what  you've done ...if you can't its just talk ... I can show over  a 100 litter's of dogs from these dogs of mine ...and  show after 25 years  I have  bred  them perty true  to type ... as  I bred  through the years watching them my breedings changed I learned about the dogs ....you don't get that  talking about what  you think ..... your  thought process seems to be ahead  of your breedings ......you seem absolutely sure of the outcome ....doesn't happen that way ....  if you haven't figured out looks  in a line  is important  then you just ain't there yet ....

this thought tickled me about someone  I used  to know ... if he wanted to get into cutt'n horses  he would  just research old  breeder's interview them  same with dogs or anything he  got into and  he was sharp he'd make  you think  he  was an authority on the subject .......but he couldn't do it himself...all he  could do was talk about  it .... 

Yeah u right,,, a lot of people these days got the talkin part figured out... hehehe

Parker in 25 years of breeding you line, you started with curs and ended with curs.     Your curs perform no better or do not better job than most everyone's best dog on here.   You describe your breeding of them the way a show breeder would there dogs, looks.  Probably because  from the dogs you started with, looks was about all you could change.   I mean what did you really change?  Did you turn a close range dog into a long range dog.   Did you turn a gritty dog in to a loose dog?      25 years worth of breeding dogs and the main thing you say about them is they look alike lol.      I'm proud for you and your pretty dogs, maybe you can get them registered and start showing them in the kennel clubs.
         You tout your 25 years worth of breeding as though it's some kinda thing you have to do to have good consistent dogs and have made out like I don't know what  I'm talking about cause I don't have 25 years of experience.  Yet you say you changed where you wanted to go with your dogs half way through and started changing what you was breeding for.       Sounds like to me you didn't listen and found out the hard way after so many years of breeding.                  
           Most of the people on this forum find that what dogs like mine do are in conflict with what they have been said can't be done or done long.      How you accomplish what these dogs do is by what you put into them.    People would see me describe what my dogs do and try to breed for it.   Most would breed grey to bull and then be convinced I was full of crap cause there fast cd can't do the things the kinda I run do or they all get killed.      There is lots of interest in the kinda dogs I run from people of this forum.  I visit with guys that are interested knowing more and what makes this possible.  I have guys reach out to me and talk about what they want to breed together to get dogs that can either do crop work or finder holder work.        Yeah they want a fast cd, I get that from the beginning as this is main premise for meeting me.    I ask them what do you really want to do with these dogs?    Hunt crops or finder holder work or just run an rcd with there pack of bay dogs to stop runners.       If it's the later I tell them I can't really help them because I believe this just gets rcd injured and eventually killed.   If it's finder holder work, we discuss finder holders, what their job is, there mentality, how to hunt them etc but you are not gonna have finder holders without really really knowing what you need and what breeds of dogs to breed from to get this.      Crop dogs isn't a tuff to breed for and can be more easily had on the first cross but again the quality of dog and your happiness and confedence in them depend on what you crossed to get this type of dog.        The people that reach out and contact me to discuss things before they do it are often glad they did because 1, I urged them to use something a bit different to get what thy want, 2 I tell them how to use the parent stock in the mean time and what to expect from a dog such as a stag, what to look for in a stag etc, 3 how to develop the future dogs, 4 how to hunt them and develop there own style, 5 dispelling the myths which are so ingrained in some people and wide spread.   I'll discuss why certain breeds are bad to cross to  and why they are the first that we'll intended people go for.                   Listening to wisdom and experience sure speeds up the process and the learning curve.        I listened to my mentors.  I got dogs from the first.  I had and used the kind of dogs I wanted before ever breeding for them.    I already hunted the way I do now before breeding a dog.     I consult with my mentors about their wisdom on various breeds and how the blood influences the dogs hunting style, holding style, physical abilities, and manners.       The people I consider mentors have years upon years of experience and there own wisdom but they too have there own people that they discuss things with in Australia who also make a living with these types of dogs and have crossed dogs for years and years and know what influences what.
        I didn't come by my knowledge from breeding dogs all my life.  I knew how I wanted to pig hunt and my intuition and research put me on the right track with the breeds of dogs to use to get what I wanted.   During my research before ever starting, I met my mentors I have today which drastically shorted my learning curve.     I have no need to breed my own dogs, I am part of something much bigger than myself that has been in place for many many years.     The wisdom I share with people here did not just come from my yard or from a friends, it has come from Australia, been proven here by breeding up the dogs we have access to here and now by integrating the Australian blood with our own.            I have seen everything which I share.  If not on my yard, on my mentors yards.   Before developing these types of dogs I run, time was spent in Australia developing first hand experience on the inside and outside of these dogs, hunting abilities and style, catching and holding ability and style, what breeds influence what, running the different cross bred dogs together to see the differences etc.  Then bring all that back to the states and applying it.    And still to this day continuing the relationship with the Aussie guys.      
       This is how I know so much.  This is how I'm no fool when it comes to breeding for what I want.   This is why I can recommend what dogs to cross for people looking for a very usable F1 cross.        
   I'm into catching pigs, not chasing them.  I don't want a yard full of dogs.    I wanted 1 out type dogs.   I wanted what most on this forum say can't be done.        I did my homework before I changed dogs.       There are people on this forum interested in the type of dogs I use.   There are people interested in not making the same mistakes you did Parker and breeding for something that didn't suit them in the beginning.  There are people here that want to catch pigs like me instead of run them like you.     There are people here that want 3 dogs on there yard instead of 30.     You know little about the type and style of dogs I run but act as if your an expert because you breed some curs that look alike lol.            

wwwellllllllll  whooow  to much for  a  stupid like me to digest  ......the person I talked about in my other  post could also talk about what someone else done all day ...... and he could make  it sound  like he  knew what he was talking about .......its all good  everyone  has  there own idea's and opinions ...... I just like talking dogs ...... I get bored ....

Black steak what would it cost to get you to come to Arkansas I will take you to a place that will cut you a big slice of humble pie

Holding style -   when a dog is holding longer for a time period measured in minutes, not seconds holding style them becomes an issue of importance to some guys, me for one.        If they chew the ears off a pig, there will not be any handle bars for them to continue to hold with.    Some people seem associate shredded and mangled pigs with hardness in there dogs.  I guess the case could be made argued but it really just gives the impression the dogs are not holding but rather fighting and shaking and provoking further fighting and unrest from a pig till they have no ears left.          This can be the result of more than 2 dogs on a pig or can be just the nature of the dogs you are using.        If there are no bay dogs bitting or barking or exciting the boar and keeping it stirred up, this will all work the catch dogs and pig to settle down and just hold and relax a little while doing so if the catch dogs are of this type nature.   This is not breed specific, I've seen all types of cd's even pits settle and just calmly walk in circles with a big boar they are holding.  Some dogs like the stag  are bred not for holding but ripping and shredding but hold pigs cleanly when you don't have more than 2 on the ground at once.
       What you see when you catch pigs with just a couple cd's and nothing else  (be it cur cd's or bulls, or rcd's) is a furious battle in the first few seconds that quickly deesculates and eventually turns into dog and pig seemingly walking around calmly.   A screaming pig usually doesn't settle eventhough it won't fight hard after initial hook up.         I've had people tell me they thought I was full of crap saying big boars and cd's will often be calmly and silently walking around together in a very relaxed manner when caught for a while.  I get a confession saying something like dogs had pigs bayed a 1400 yards out.   We were headed to bay and seen a big boar walking in front of us.  All we had was 2 catch dogs with us.  We decided to cut the catch dogs to the boar and get him and then go on to the bay.    Then there worst fears come true.  The boar outrun our cd's and took them 1000 yards off, crossed a creek we couldn't get across etc.         They spend a whole looking at the Garmin trying to figure out how to get to the two catch dogs.  They have shown treed for a while.  They know they are caught and what they are caught on and they are panicked cause they can't get there.   After much time getting finally they find a place to cross.  Dogs haven't moved.  Reality is setting in and they are preparing for what they gonna find when they get to the dogs.  They get close, kill the ranger and hear nothing and dogs are not coming to them.  Still haven't moved really.   Walk to the collars and find in their light 2 catch dogs calmly walking around with 1 big boar.  Nothing injured and boar isn't shredded.   Then have them tell me about their hunt and what transpired and have them tell me they thought I was full of crap till they seen that.            
        With the new sense of confedence  with the catch dogs and them thinking maybe there was something to what I say, now they get the feeling they can use these dogs like this again.   So one hot summer night one of the guys is gonna do some request work in an upscale neighborhood in town by immulating my style of hunting and was gonna use just catch dogs so as not to make a big distribution in the neighborhood.     The pigs are located in a backyard and see the hunters first and start heading down the cliff and into the brush.   Some apprehensive conversations takes and one of the dogs is released well the other guy releases his and in the direction the pigs were last seen the dogs ran and disappear.  Close to a mile later dogs stop, show treed etc.    How do we get there set in again.    Decision was made to take this road to that road and maybe they will be close to the catch.      I think I was told 500 or 600 yards was about the closest they could get to these dogs.   The dogs start moving a little on the Garmin but still won't leave that area.    They walk to the dogs and to the spot they were treed for so long and nothing.    No piglet no nothing.  One of the dogs is acting funny.   On the way back to the truck the dog stops walking and won't move.  Then it's entire body contracts and locks up.        We'll I knew the dog and knew the condition in which it lived.    Kept very well but in a small 10 x 15 type space.  No exercise except on the occasion it gets to run 50 yards to a bay, etc etc.            In this guy's story, before he ever got to the dog locking up I knew what was about to happen and where this story was about to go.     He didn't recognize what was wrong with the dog when he first got to it, he didn't take water with him to the dog etc etc.    Story ended up that they carried the dog the rest of the way out, set in the guys barn for a couple days and got no better and then he took it to the vet.    (I find all this out after the dog is released from the vet by the way)    what's the vet do for the dog?  Exactly what I told him was wrong with the dog when he got half way through his story.   Vet rehydrate he dog and puts a warming blanket on the dog to bring it's temperature back up to normal.    
    The unfit dog was allowed to over exert itself, no we dealing with a build of lactic acid in the body and no water to rehydrate the dog and cool it down upon arrival to the dog,   time was spent getting dog out and to the truck in which time the dogs body locked up.  This adds enormous mystery for the two guys to what's going on with this dog.   At this point I'm told the dog just ran down a pig the day before and did great.    As the mystery deepens to them, it becomes more and more certain to me what caused this.    Dog lived to catch again but none of this should have or would have happened if he would have fully listened to me.   This half azzing things about killed his dog and ruined his confedence hunting like this again.
    Why did this happen and exactly what happened.  Once it happens, how do you midagate it.    What do you do going forward?         The guy was told all of this prior to this ever happening.      He thought what I do with my dogs was unnecessary and me just being weird.  I told him why I do what I do.  Which to which I would explain of him what I was avoiding you doing this.   When it happened to him, it wasn't well I didn't prepare my dogs for such hunting or arm myself with the knowledge in how to hunt dogs like this and hunt this style, he  didn't have actually have the right dog for the job either, just kinda making do with a boarder lined dogs ability to do that kinda work.
        So to answere the question as to how, why, and then what.           Initial cause was lack of fitness and conditioning of the dog to perform such work.  It stayed in a small kennel all the time with the exception of being snapped to the back of a ranger and then being allowed to run 50 yards to a bay every now and then.          
   2, the day before he uses the cd to run down a pig not mentioned in this story.   Now we have a build up of lactic acid in the muscles that has not been allowed to flush itself out yet before the next hunt.     Next hunt we have a race which the dog was not fast enough for, was turned loose way to late with to much ground to cover on already running pigs that had reached cover.   Not so much cover a good rcd couldn't have  run a pig down quickly and caught but enough to slow one a little.          So now we have just allowed a dog to run a mile with already high levels of lactic acid build up in the body.     Further complicating things was the dog was brought no water.    Then we have a failure to realize the shape the dog is in and why and can't at least get some fluids in the dog before it locks up.    After the dog is back home, the reason for the dogs condition is still not known to the owner who allows the dogs condition to further decline getting fluids in the dog to rehydrate it and to flush out the substantial over load of lactic acid.          
          Root cause for this dogs sad story = lack of understanding about they type of dog he has and it's requirments to perform certain tasks.          I wouldn't be the least bit scared of using this dog for myself but got to get the dog fit enough to perform the work multiple times a day for a few times a week.
     Oh the other dog was fine but the guy thought he had a finder holder dog and was no where near such a dog
      

I am lost on this because I have hunted dogs like black streak In thick stuff that most say cant bd done like sugar cane also last time I checked hawaii had the tallest volcano in the world and it has jungles so if my dogs can stop and hold pigs in woods that are up and down mountains gulchs that are 300 ft and can run down pigs in our pastures how is it that it can't be done here? I had a cat that was in ported from tx was a great dog I breed him to my grayhound/ wippet/shepherd had a great noes but couldn't keep up with my bitch in the open or woods and we ran chest plates on my bitch nothing on the cat and he still couldn't keep up this is the kinda stuff we hunted on the top part of our ranch it can be done and if you use the same dogs for 50 years or 100 years and nothing else how would you know that somthing else don't work better? O n I haven't bin breeding dogs that long I am only 24 but my dad stop using bay dogs in 2000 and started our long legged full catch dogs cus my uncle was running this type of dog n catching more (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160902/2e8a07d0585daf616b9bf1404ccff609.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160902/5a662010313fe80f44cf9ca26ccb3606.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160902/0ba423307ef0426eb17c6abc988c8139.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160902/17d62d172193e5831f39cd9c4cd90f1e.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160902/687d20a839d4ba9c27bdd3649d3e8ad5.jpg)12 years old now this was one of the first pups out of our first breeding haole girl

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It would probably cost me about the same it would for you to come to me so I can put you and your dog in the open where you can see what really takes place and you can eat your own pie.   You can speculate all day long about what you can't see, but when you can see, there is no need to speculate.   If they can't get it done in the open, they are even worse in the brush.  It's just the pig mentality that changes once it gets to cover that allows the dogs to then shine.            You think a dog that can't out run a pig in the open and catch it, can do it in the brush if the pig didn't stop and face the dog in the brush?   No, if the dog  can't out run a pig in the open or it can't catch it in the open, it dang sure can't out run it in the brush which means it can't catch it.    There is a reason why it happens though and it's not because the dog got faster or harder in the brush

Kai they say these things because they no no different or because they are scared to accept it which would mean everything they have believed or said would then be a lie. 

Cheeeheee 8)

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How does a dog stop a pig running without putting teeth on it?

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Also how do you control a dog from catching n not catching that sounds bad ass

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hyan for what streak hunts and how he likes to hunt his  dogs is  just the ticket  for  HIM ......I ain't seen nobody tell him he needs to change what he  does ....... and  I know his dogs ant work here unless behind  one of our  woods dogs ....  now  far  as  Hawaii never been there and I'm just to fat to climb mountains or big hills .......fella use to call me wanting me to send him dogs ....but man its a pain to send a dog there  or was  then ....... now I don't know but he told me most of the dogs there was shat bred ...he said they just didn't have the hunt the dogs from the  main land  does ..... he said the country is so ruff  you would loose dogs like  we  hunt because they would track pigs so far ....but he said he wanted to cross some with what they had  to give  theres  more  hunt .....now I don't know that's what the man said  you know  more  than me ......

There's dog's here that have been bred to do this for hundreds of years it's nothing new you're not doing anything that hasn't been done before I like to see the pictures of the hog's you Catch And your dog's Dean but you're coming off as arrogant and rude to other's because they run different dog's than you.Mocking men who have been breeding dogs for 30yrs because they haven't switched to a new style in your eye's that's really nothing New at all.Hyan many FL dog's will put teeth in hog get it stopped bay by themselves and hang it when you show up warrant has owned true one out dogs  I own a couple true one out dogs and many many others do as well.When someone said that there's many kinds of dogs that do the same thing as in find and catch hog's you shut them down and mocked them throwing your dogs down there throat and discredited any breeds but your own.You have told me in text that you can't believe that cur dogs down here do exactly what you're dogs do but they do and have been doing It for hundreds of years CUR DOGS!!!people have different preferences on how they want to hunt and their dog's to perform I have rough curs that have been bred to do this and also like to hunt longer ranging bay type dogs and have even been getting into some casting type dogs. I have respect for all aspects of hog dogging and the men who are dedicated to breeding better dogs and the future of the sport. I hate to say it but the last couple of days Dean you've been sounding a lot like Oconee and have came off quite offensive.

Where did you get your your gyp from you just breed

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Gary Cambell in Ga.

If that question was for me cavity lol.

F..ing autocorrect Cscott not cavity.

All you know nothing I've been doing this a few years you are doing it wrong because you don't do it like me I have the best of the best lol

By getting in front and working on the head end. Not all dogs can do it of course, but this is how stock bred curs work.

Alot of guys have crap dogs that they get for free or get from the pound because they want to hunt we actually breed our dogs to get what we want out of them and I wasn't talking about dean's dogs I was talking about mines they are built like dean's but I use them in mountains and yea you can't have dogs that go miles cus u have to walk to them where they hook up with a pig my dogs would roll out to 500 yards then loop back over and over we would walk somtime up to 10 miles if we hunt the pastures at the ranch we let them see the pigs then they run um most guys down in hawaii don't think about breeding just hunting n that's why there dogs just work but don't get better every time they hunt all I am trying to point out is long big legged dogs can work n if they can work in hawaii I am sure they can work here I am not saying that curs don't work cus I have bin hunting behind curs n some bad ass ones at that so I am not going to knock it I just wanted to point that out I hope no one thinks I am being disrespectful or an ass

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I enjoy the bay dogs doing their job the most. Really doesn't matter how fast my little short legged Bulldogs are  and in my 15 years of hunting behind a bunch of different Bulldogs the best I ever hunted behind trotted to the bay and snuck up on the hog like an Indian and hit at the right time.


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hell I give  up ... I went down to the dump and got a truck load of whippets and greyhounds ....old man there said  takes care of the place said thats what  they are  ... I said are  you sure he said  yeah son thats whippets and old rin tin tin there is a greyhound ...I said  ok so I started load'n up ...he said  hey don't forget that miniature  whippet he's just a puppy his teeth  is short  he chews  on a lot of bones I said  ok ......I told him what I wanted them for and asked if he thought they'd work ....he said  son see how far  it  is  to that back fence  I said  yes sir  he said  ain't a wood rat ever made it out ..... ;D ;D ;D  I'm just picking fella's  .....its all good ....

See told you if that can catch a rat then they can catch a pig  ::)

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;)   As for controlling catch Hyan, it involves having a handle on a dog. Handle that is achieved by working with a dog day in and day out. I won't own suicidal dogs. They must have some sense and catch smart to make my cut.  A shock collar can be a useful tool in this process, but for the most part it goes back to the type of Bulldog we put in our dogs. That alone eliminated a lot of headache from the get go. Proud to say that we started with cur dogs over 120 years ago and will end our existence with them  ;)

I'm not suggesting people change styles or dogs.     I'm simply trying to illustrate to people that if stopping and catching runners in the brush is so much harder than the open which everyone on here has agreed upon once somewhere on this forum, then why is it there not stopping and catching pigs in the open when they find them.    I typical target pigs in the open and that's where most of my pigs are caught as a result.       That's where catching is the easiest for dogs right???     If so, good this is my premise to my point.    Why do I need to come put my dogs in the brush when the point I'm trying to make is if others dogs can't do it in the open, then what's really going on in the brush to allow such success in catching pigs in the brush.  Nobody has even attempted to answere this that I've read.  It's the point to the hole thread.                  This having better dogs than thow that so many are reading into and getting offended by it not me saying it, it's them reading into it and going off the rails with it.        
      Everytime I've ever feilded a question on here about rcd's, a dang 4 page back and forth argument breaks out mostly by people that don't even run rcd's or haven't been able to do it successfully.  Which I pointed out breed matters, things matter.    Every reason I've ever heard given on here was to me either self induced or inappropriate breeding to get what they were trying to accomplish.       A good rcd is the most miss understood dog ever discussed on here and it's talked about fairly often.     For someone to come along and get the truth out about such dogs and combat the myths and missunderstandings and give explanations and break stuff down the way I have is about time and been long over do.     I knew I would be in the hot seat but I was big enough to do it.        I'm using the most easy example to understand, hunting in the open to illustrate my points.    Sometime the descussion gets pulled one way or another but still I've maintained what I believe to be a steady direction to this thread.    If people take things out of context and turn this into a my dog vs your dog or style thread then why is that my fault.  Could I have illustrated my points better? Probably but if you have seen where I could help people understand my points, then why haven't you helped?
     As for the guy with the 25 yrs experience in breeding dogs that's now turned into 30, he didn't have to says what he did.  He has 25 years worth of breeding the same type of dog he started with and has now that do the same thing.   And his big accomplishment he speaks of is they all look alike.  Ummm, that isn't what this thread is about.  It's about dogs stopping pigs, not best in show.        He said grit don't stop pigs and give the slowest cd used as an example that not surprisingly couldn't catch a pig in 3/4 of a mile.    Ummm does he take me for stupid?  I treated him the way he spoke of his experiences and examples.  Which by the way he turned around and tried to lend credibility to himself by posting a picture of a dog he said sucked pigs up in the open.   So which is it according to him,  more grit and speed catches pigs one the dogs terms or not?  He made both points in the same thread.     I said a few more things than that but so did he.    You feel that I'm supposed to lay down and let this person keep spreading crud about dogs which he don't breed or use and that tells me I'm wrong.  No, negative, I have a backbone and knew what I was up against and prepared to stand and dispelling all the propaganda and myths about rcd type dogs.   Don't take an rcd to stop a pig in the open but this post is long enough without having to re-examine every detail.      
      I'm not doing this people like you Casey nor am I doing this for people like Parker.       I'm doing this for the people who are interested in getting on the right track with rcds and not taking the long way around, not wasting their time with stuff the realize later etc.       I have people contact me on a regular basis that want to pick my brain about various rcd's but they won't dare speak up on here.  Why is that Casey?   It's because of the bias, the crud that gets started as a result of talking about such dogs by people touting their experience which often times has very little if any to do with rcd's.          Just like the guy in the last thread that asked about rough  or rougher for small places.  How many bs answers did he get that truely addressed his problem.        Several, and one of the bs answers come from Parker who said call the dogs back.  We'll if you had dogs like his, which the guy evidently did, you would need to call the dogs back in order for the not to get on the neighbors  before catching a pig.   The guy asked about catching pigs BEFORE they pigs could get onto the neighbors property and what kinda dog to use.   Not what kinda instrument to call dogs back because the dogs he was using couldn't do the kinda job he was wanting out of a dog.              No my respect is not to the one that gives the bs answer and fails to answer the question.  My respect is for the person asking the question.  When try to answer a question, I deal with the question asked.   If I don't have an answer that works for the parameters given, I don't answer, very a simple.      If your seeing red right now, I'm sorry but that's just how it is with me.  
   You don't see me given advice on guys asking questions about hounds.  You don't see me tell in no someone a dog that runs a track hard and fast is more successful and better than a dog that swings one.    You don't see me contradicting what the good houndsmen of the forum say about there dogs or hunt style.  I know enough to answer a question or two but why would I?   I'm not a hound man, I don't hunt them, etc.       I have more respect for the good houndsmen of the forum than to take a question better answered by them.         I could speculate on things but provide answers the way my minds eye sees them and what little info I know but there are aging much more qualified guys to answer hound questions.        To me, if you can't examine things in a holistic manner your not gonna analyze things correctly.  If you can't do either of these for one reason or another than you really are limited to what you can truthfully speak about and feild.
     Pigs are part of the equation too.   You can't disregard them.  If you don't know pigs you can't really examine things from a holistic standpoint.     This thread included the mentality of pigs.  It's the question I have been setting up for people to hit on and look at.  It's the big reason why dogs that can't stop a pig in the open can so successfully  do it in the brush.           I've been trying to make this about  pig mentality from the beginning and using open country  and dogs the common dog not being able to stop a pig in the open but soooo often and successfully getting it done in the brush where it should be harder to do.        Maybe I was setting the question up wrong for most,  but I at least expected someone to pick it up.  Instead it was read into as my dogs are better than your dogs thread which in no post did I purposefully portray this

The only open places we have is roads and the occasional shooting lanes so we never find them in the open unless they run across a road

Hyan when I was to referring to brush and my dogs, I am mostly talking about briars. They are horrible up here in places where the ranchers don't control the growth. Dogs will come out with bloody faces just from running through them. Part of the reason I don't like hunting this type of dog in them is that they may get through it in 2 minutes but it'll take my big butt 10 minutes and I personally don't care to have my dogs caught that long.

Hawaii looks beautiful and appears you'd have to be in better shape than your dogs to be successful there.

Pigs stopping in brush to fight is what you're getting at I know that but if you don't have a high population of hogs and only hunt thick stuff and you don't have dog's that trail or hunt their asses off then you'll have no success my question  was how do they hunt in comparison to a good Cur or cross whatever have you ,a good strike dog?If you can't find the hog's then a race is never started there for speed stopping power and everything thing else is obsolete.I have hunted highly populated areas where we hunted fields and roads surrounded by alligator pits/marsh and the thickest nastiest brush on the planet with success with curs catching In the open. I also know that if a dog is handed hog's in the open its whole life it would have a hard time with hunting thick such as palmettos,briars,switch Grass tunnels,stick marsh and all the nasty stuff I hunt Ihave seen it time and time again bring dogs that hunt crops such as orange Groves, tomatoes, etc and they don't even want leave the trails or roads because the brush is to thick.if a dogs been bred  for many generations to hunt open land primarily by sight or winding hog's at a close distance than how can you expect it to out perform a trail dog that has been bred for its hunt and finding ability in the thick? Nothing to do with loose or rough because It can't be stopped if it is not found.I have asked this question before and never really got an answer Other than Jsh.

I say in my opinion nothing beats a good cur that has a touch of every thing and a good handle makes for some good times in the woods. I know every one like there way the best cuz it's there way. A good dog regardless it's style will stop the hog but first it has to be found.


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Would be hard for you to see first hand what point I've been making but haven't had anyone grasp a hold of yet.   But I know you have read the stories on here where dogs have struck pigs in the open and couldn't get them shut down till they got to the brush.     It is why this happens with such overwhelming frequency  (starting a pig in the open and not being able to get it stopped till it gets to the brush) was the root point I was trying to discuss and talk about.           To really get good legit discussion about why this is and to get people on the right track in how to discuss this, it needs to be done from a holistic standpoint in order to identify that it's the pigs that enable this to happen the way it does, not so much the dogs.  If it was the dogs, it would be done in the open when the dogs had the upper hand.                 

All great points but just not for what I've been trying to navigate the thread toward.    If a dog can't find your right, nothing would be relevant.   Very very true about spoilt dogs hunting open all there life and having hard time getting up to speed in the briars.  I think this is overlooked an awful lot.  How can you judge a type or style of dog fairly when you only seen one persons dog.      Josh and I run some of the same dogs, same litter etc.    His dogs would make mine look like a joke in the delta that he often hunts in until my dogs got used to it like his.    Same dogs, same litter, if you seen my dogs first time they were taken to such an area to hunt you would have a different opinion of them than if you seen his hunting same thing.     This is one way such myths about different kinda dogs are born and spread.

Say I'm having trouble catching pigs on my not so big place before the pigs get onto the neighbors.  Neighbors are totally against pig dogs bring on there place. What kinda dogs do I need in order to catch pigs in my place and not the neighbors?
    
Does this guy  need a yard full of dogs?
Did this guy ask how to call dogs off of pigs before they got to the neighbors place or catch them before hand.     (These are not questions  I asking to be answered just rather really pointing out)   t

 

  

The first post on this thread I said short and rough is my style. This is my main style of hunting. You don't need a specialty dog to catch a hog. But I can see why people would choose to breed for a certain type of dog. That being said I think people put a lot of thought into this I do not. If u hunt with some one that u think ur dogs can out do ten times you might be disappointed at the outcome. Most people that have hunt for a good period know what works and don't. Dean we have had some good discussion about dogs. I am open to all forms of dogs fast slow cold nose or not if they work they work be happy and hunt


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This has been enlightening.........and entertaining

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I'd just like to know how the h3ll u start out in the middle of a field every time ..... what do you do if the hogs is near the woodline ?  friend of mine from granado is down we will hunt tom ...he said  it ain't perty when one of those sight dogs hits a fence .....he said  about everybody has went to night vision hunt'n ......oh and  as  my first post most folks now  use the garmin trainer to keep dogs on there property .....hey streak  no more country than you have  to hunt  one old curdog  hunter would clean that up in a few weeks ......

Many folks have spoken highly of the parker cur dogs...that is respectable in my book...

I think my dogs are pretty successful, I think Bolens dogs are different from mine, but I believe they are quite successful, I think a lot of dogs that are completely different from mine are very successful, what I can't understand, is what is it about Australia that makes some Americans lose their damn minds and think there is no possible other way near as good as the way some foreigners showed them? Why can't "one out" guys ever admit that their "finder holders" are great for the environment they are used in, but it is also possible that there are other dogs, better for the environments they were created for?

I think my curs are better hog dogs than your finder holders, but that is only my opinion, it may or may not be accurate so what is the point of getting 4 pages worth of bent out of shape trying to prove the theoretical superiority of one or the other?  I garauntee that if we sight casted your dogs and mine to a sounder of hogs in an open field yours would be caught on a hog before mine got there, but what I can also say with some degree of certainty is at least a few of mine would leave your dog with the hog caught and go rally the sounder we just cut loose on so we could continue to catch the rest. Of course, they may leave the property line, so I guess that means mine must be inferior dogs... Lol

I'm tryn stay off posting on boards cause I get myself into trouble and let my mouth outrun my ass and experience lot of times....hell, I'm first to admit I'm a drinker. Hehe

But I do read and check in on most days, sue me, ain't had a tv in four years and don't miss it lol

I've probably made enemies out of folks that I more'n likely would be friends with and vice versa and all pints inbetween.

I love a good debate and it's hard for me sometimes to not pull a trigger, even one that I wake up in morn and regret hahahaha but I take it as it comes and keep stumbling done the road in the path I choose.

But on this point...

I have met talked to and/or hunted with folks for going on a decade that have bought Parker dogs and either bred and owned yards full of em or crossed em into other dogs or just kept and worked a good one...

I have seen some I wouldn't own and also outstanding ones, like any breed of dog.

I think from the percentages (hard to quantify %'s in working dogs as there are never 100% absolutes consistently) of happy folks that have the dogs crossed or pure Larry's program is a success.

....I think the man has done a good job and like Rueben think it's respectable at the least.

Now I'm not a Parker coattail rider. I don't even own one and never have. I got one that is a 1/4 but she don't count cause she aint showed me enough yet and honestly I ain't given her a fair chance this year and she was free anyway. So I really got no stake in the game. I got dif stuff I'm doin. But I think Larry just proud of the uniformity of form he has seen in his dogs and locked in. And I also think form follows function and believe Larry himself and lot folks that bred his dogs off his yard culled and worked em on working principles as well...

But I have seen quite few good ones and def heard of gobs more from folks that really put in work.

Now by that I'm not down grading what dean says about his dogs...

I honestly don't know and admit I've never hunted that style or seen it personally besides vids. I have some doubts but also a pretty open mind and would live to see it happen one day esp on these thick pine farm cutovers and woods here in la. Is be the first to switch gears if I seen it cause we get outrun all the time lol

But I just wanted to put that out there...

Carry on

Lemme bow out before I embarrass myself now, cause hey I'm a drinker, and sometimes that clouds being much of a thinker, and I admit it hahahaha

I don't start out in the middle of a feild Parker, the pigs do.         Often times the pigs are running before the dogs hit the ground,  often times they are not.    If they are the pigs half half a feild head start.        As far as your buddy saying it's pretty when sight hounds hit the fence, he been use to some super dumb dogs  if he has watched them hit fences the way your implying.       My dogs nor any other persons dogs I know have had any trouble at fences.        I had a dog break a tail once but that's it.      If the pigs get through, then I've never had an experienced dog not be able to get through except once.  He got through just not in time and pig made a good getaway.  That was right after a long run and decent hold time this summer then within minutes see another pig on the way to get truck.
    When pigs cross the fence if there is on, sometimes there isn't and get into the trees or brushy creek bottoms the pig is caught no problem.    Why would I have a problem catching where it's most commonly done?           These long hold times I refer to is not pigs caught in the open, it's pigs either found or run down in the brush that takes time to get through.      
    As far as a cur cleaning up what I hunt yes  your exactly  right .     One of the great things about running straight catch dogs and not curs is the lack of pressure the other pigs feel.   Often times the don't even know why a pig is stressed.      No dogs bark to give up the gig.      If you catch a pig or two from a group, often times in an hour they are based k in there feeding and you can catch another.         More pigs come in also.   Hunt with bay dogs and you put way more pressure on pigs and catch less before the pigs move out.   Sometimes you never run the pigs out of the feild on the first catch.      I'm sure your  dogs would alert pigs of the danger for miles around and push pigs off.           So yeah your exactly right, your curs would clear out  the pigs on what I hunt and then you would be left with nothing to hunt or only a pig few and far between.    Your right you just right for the wrong reasons

Since your not even really getting what I'm eluding to, it's kinda pointless for me to carry on and try to make it understandable.    I've used every holistic approach and example I could think off to get the descussion onto pigs but if my examples are misunderstood, then taking it further and discussing pigs would be an even bigger obstacle to discuss in here

hey man i'll be the first too tell you in my opinion you can't breed a line of super dogs or I can't ....I can breed a good solid line of dogs that or so similar they  perty much all work but some is just gonna be better than other's ..... I do feel that with a good working line  you gonna get more of those  top dogs than scatter bred dogs produce ....  I;m almost 50 and I'm done with what I have  I have  pushed it far as I can I believe and  I'm almost 50 years  old now its just keep up  what I have and when that exception pops  up my program breeds around him ......  when I started I had a few yellow dogs  brindle few reds all colors in litter's  but when I got them bred down to looking alike and breeding around the better dogs I didn't get any better  dogs than the good  dogs  I just got more  of the better  dogs ......   hey steak  son if your dog got his tail hurt  he was  either running  in reverse  or the wrong way .... ;D ...... dogs running full blast  run into all kinds  of mess ....I have heard  of  bird dogs  killing themselves ... an old friend  of mine that has  hunted  grain for year around Beeville hunted pointer bulldog crosses and  man they could fly and super ruff dogs ......















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Black streak this is a sincere honest legitimate invite to bring your style of dogs down here to the southeastern parts of Louisiana and southwest ms so you can see with your own two eyes, if your capable of that, that your style of dog in not compatible everywhere. I've heard enough on these "finder/holders", since they are for more superior than any other style of dog I want you to bring the brigade and hunt them the way and style we hunt, casting into a wall of briars and going as far as needed to cut a track, or put on a track crossing the road from the night before and trail that hog up and "find it and hold it" until we make our way around there to them. Yes your style of dog may produce big numbers or results for YOU, but why talk down on someone because their style of dogs aren't the same style as yours. I make decent money and I'll bet a months wages that your style of dogs won't be squat in a pine cut over, ever since the first videos made their way across the ocean from Australia men have been trying the finder/holder dogs around here to no avail. Let this be an open invite so everyone can see that you've been offered a chance to showcase these showstoppers....


Ps. We never see the hogs first that we catch, no big crop land around here...

I guess it's above my head lol.


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 streak here's my catcher catcher ......(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14141957_1396904073670224_2879424034759533563_n.jpg?oh=329f6170e8b5f01d8f28b1d0c5049f33&oe=583CF521) ........ my runner downers and that catcher catcher caught two this morning  ....

my finder runner downers ...I am inspecting the holes ....(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14225574_1397082270319071_5514587494788404372_n.jpg?oh=9bc4a31f23ea4bfee1123e28accf5ec3&oe=584C521A)

Goose87...I am not knocking blackstreaks dogs or even his mentors dogs...but I am willing to bet that the average finder holder will not trail a hog very far if at all and winding yes to a certain extend but I wouldn't spend any of my time hunting that type of dog in your country nor mine...now having a good cur dog or plott leading a couple of finder holders around I could go for that...

my mindset is that the days are coming and almost here for many of us to run some shorter ranged catch on sight type of dogs...

What is trail a hog very far? For me it was 300-600 yard loops over a ten mile walk n they did trail,find n hold hogs while I walked the 600 yards I do believe there are hard places to hunt here but these finder holder dogs can be breed to work in thick woods in thick sugar cane and on top of mountains

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Not knocking the mans dogs either, he sounds like an intelligent individual who really knows his style of dogs, I'm sure they are very productive for him in his geographical area and others areas similar, but in an area that's extremely thick with a sparse hog population to begin with, your not going to be very productive. I can clean my pond out of bream in a days time with a small bait cast and a beetle spin, I'm not going to take that same set up and catch catfish on the Mississippi River.


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Hyan...I agree with you...you can breed dogs to hunt deep and take a track...but my thought is that the percentage goes up on these scatter bred dogs that most the time won't hunt the way a well bred cur will...usually if there is one good ranging dog that will take a track then you can have a pack of hog hunting machines that will follow that trail dog...I have hunted with folks that have al kinds of mixed up dogs that catch many hogs...not a bad way to hunt at all if one is after numbers and not care much about breeding a pure and consistent line of dogs...

Kind of reminds me of a football team...takes all kinds to balance out the team...I have seen your island videos...I have seen the proof your style works well...

it don't take much to catch hogs ....knowing the dogs you have  is the key and put them where they do well .......  but ....... for some its having the best dog in the box ,,,and that's always the finder  weather short ,medium or long ranged .....

Parker that's the truth


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I get what your saying we breed the type of breeds we wanted in a dog then took them and started line breeding my uncle had the line of our first bitch from the 80s then we added cat to it n that's all n just line breed from then on

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Any more science to be shared?

yeah , i'll share some with'ya .

if it is dropped out of a butthole , and looks like crap , and smells like crap ................    i'm not a scientist but  .............

Hyan are your dogs as big as deans or more like 50-60 lbs?


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Hyan most of the videos I have watched on dogging Hawaii they are cur sized rough dogs and they run a lot of them on the ground at once like 6-8 or more.How many dog's do you and your family usually run at a time?

Hahahahah  :o

We ran two they were not cur size the pic of the our first bitch she was the runt of the litter her brother was around 120 pounds n his back was about to my hip the most she weighted was 85 pounds n was a little above my mid thigh every one in my family also only ran two dogs my dad said if you can't catch a  pig with two dogs n them two dogs can't hold it till u get there you should shoot them but that goes for finder holders of course not cur type or sized dogs but we did have two dogs that came out the same size of curs but they had wippet in them so they were fast n they never let go of anything they got a hold of one was stolen n the second one got killed by a lahole but we always only ran two dogs it was also because our dogs were big and each would grab an ear sp there was really no where for another dog to grab unless we didn't want any meat to take home

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95-130 was the average size never really had any bigger then 130 that bitch is 12 years old now that's why she looks so small

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N the cat we breed her to was a freak from here in Texas that weighted 80-90

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There not only running them types of dogs in au n it can also be said that Americans lose there mind when we say au dogs can work here also I there are guys in au that run bay dogs a guy I met actually runs Mr masons cats n breed them down there and they work there so if American bay dogs can work there why can au finder holders work here but I will say I had cat in my line n also shepherd so my dogs had speed n a dam good nose my uncle still has full shepherds he runs as finder holders

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There's two kinds of finder/holders I have found. Ones that run pigs down and pull them to a stop, and ones that run a pig till it trips or slows up to navigate an obstacle and catches it then. Truth is most dogs cannot out run a pig and have to wait till it trips or gets caught up in the brush before they can catch it. Imo rough dogs or RCD's will not improve your chances of catching "runners" unless they can flat out smoke a pig down. I hear people say all the time they are switching to a all catch pack or all rough dogs because of the runners. If that pack is all dogo or cur bulldog cross ect, ect... they will still be disappointed because these dogs lack the raw speed needed to run down a pig that is already spooked and on the run. Sure these dogs will catch feeding and bedded pigs and make it look easy but will fall flat when the pig is already spooked by the dogs or if they hit and miss a hog. In finder/holders speed and nose kills. And I mean raw unadulterated flat out speed.

I believe what people are referring to catching runners don't mean actually catching them in the act of running , they are wanting to catch them before all the running starts. Everybody has places that they hunt where as soon as the hogs see the dogs they take off to the races which is why some want the dog to catch it immediately instead of baying waiting for the catch dog to arrive.


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I often send my dogs to pigs feeding on the edge of feilds.       With my style of dogs I can tweak my style a number of ways for this catch.     Mostly I just send them from across the feild.   That's 1 fence to cross, the length or width of the feild to cover, another fence to negotiate while I'm persuit, run the pig down in the brush often times having crossed a steep creek etc.    Then hold till I arrive to take possession of the pig.         
        If the pigs are in the middle or on the side I'm on, I'll be tying pigs in the feild.          If a dog can't run down a fast pig in the open, the dog has zero chance of running the same pig down in the brush and catching it all things being equal.         If the dog is only slightly faster than pigs  in the open and the race is stretched out do to the dogs lack of real speed, then the pig will be either caught much farther in the brush or won't  be caught at all, unless the pig makes a mistake.           We all know pigs like to turn and face the dogs once they get in the brush, these are not the pigs I'm speaking of.    The pig that never checks up once it hits the brush is the ones I'm speaking of.   Any cd can get a good chance at catching a pig if it checks up once it hits the brush.            Many people don't have the ability to hunt their dogs in open stuff.      Take the jungle and hills of where Hyan is from In Hawaii.       They have developed dogs to run pigs down and catch them in the brush should the pig be able to flick the dog once found.   These dogs (2) are holding for how long?   A long time as opposed to what most of us are used to.       They aren't gonna be doing this with 25 pound terriers most people here think it takes to get through thick brush.           
   The logic that goes along with the little dog theory that it takes to keep up with pigs in the brush and are doing what big dogs can't is one of the most flaud thought processes I've come across.     Can they do it, yeah they do it all the time.    Big dogs do too, big dogs of this caliber and kind are just foreign to most doggers of this forum.    So is strickly hunting with catch dogs yet it's done by  a growing number of people in the US and is the dominant style in Australia.    Same stuff there as here.    Brush, heat, blackberry thickets, hills, crop feilds etc.    It's done the same there as it is here and they have dogs that do it all same as here.   Wind, rig, cast, sight hunt, crop work, working blackberry thickets etc.      Just a different style dog than what most are used to here on the forum but common In certain circles here or cultures or other countries.
   

Injuries on these kinda dogs?       Typically far fewer than lead in cd's.        Much longer holds with far fewer injury.        I'm not talk if no about the guys that half hearted have dogs of this nature or but the true finder holder bred dogs getting to hunt like true finder holders.           If your getting frequent injuries, something is wrong with the type of dog your running or something your doing is the weak link.   

My dogs didn't really get hurt also when they had a pig in the mountains when j got there they would be standing the same direction as the pig so there body would be next to the body of the pig not the head(holding ear) it was in the open when they would get cut cus they had space to more so they would hold on the ear but be standing in front the pig

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In my experience dogs that get cut more then average would be a dog that is fighting the hog not catching. This will cause other dogs to get cut. Now you ain't going to stop all cuts but you can knock it down by knowing the dog and good cut gear. 


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Hyan and everyone else that runs these kind of dogs, there's been times it's been over a hour before I could get to a bay, I get nervous and I have loose dogs. I could just imagine if I had something caught that long. I'm completely ignorant to these kind of dogs, so I'm not talking down on them or anything. Just curious if that ever happened?

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I have had them hold longer then that it's all mountains in hawaii so some times they stop a pig in a gulch and you stand at the top of of a 150 ft cliff trying to figure out how the hell they got down there so u follow it till u find a spot to get down them have to walk back to where the dogs are some time it can take 2 even 3 hours to get to some pigs that by the time u get there the pig is half dead n the dogs are still there just holding it depends on your line breeding the type of dog is important my dogs were started at 4 months old so if by 1 year or so they couldn't keep up they didn't make the cut the size of the dog also our dogs were big so when you have to big dogs on one pig it helps alot (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160916/ad85a5803bff3841953a5b231fe47fdb.jpg) this is my little bro the pup behind him is only 4 months old this was her 4th pig of the month and she was trying to hold with the other dogs we also exercise our dogs as a pack every day they would run a 8 mile back road be hind the truck that was going 10 mph so they were really fit when my dad first started the line he would hunt the dogs every day after work in the sugar fields on his way home

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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160916/0caf4b5ca9417bd71b80b8605fba5685.jpg) two pups at 4 months one grab dog gun just in case

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My sister and cousin with a nice boar look in the background and you can see how thick that stuff is and this was in one of the more open spots(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160916/5aee99dc28ab513c4bc057bea9577c07.jpg)

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I can vouch for the terrain there. I been up and down those mnt more then I care to remember. Spent many a trip to PTA makooa valley over the top kollie kollie pass top of the world Kahoo koos and on the last lepercy colonialism. I known my spellings ain't right lol. If you can hunt and hick there this stuff here is fairly easy except briars don't think I remember any there


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I was wondering about the spelling lol the I think there the same as cat claw?

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perty much each area adapts to what works the best for them .......  who cares I don't  I wish I  could get a donkey to catch then he could pack it out for me .....  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  get off here and go  hunt  ;D ;D ;D  we gonna hunt tomorrow maybe i'll have a big nasty to show ya'll ......

       I often times raise an eyebrow at people who demand no regripping from their catch dogs they send to the bays.   The curs are instigating a big fight from the pig.   Biting it barking and escalating the level of intensity and excitement coming from the pig and other dogs.     They want a dog that doesn't regrip  while the others are doing provoking a fight.     Sure 1 or 2 guys can hold another down but that calm assertiveness is basically gone in mob rule type culture and fights.   No one gonna naturally hold while others are fighting, if you can kinda visualize that.    Not saying we on this forum would willfully fall into mob rule type groups, just using it as an analogy to illustrate circumstances.     Same catch dogs in different circumstances may be more prone to calmly hold.    These types of circumstances are one of the key elements to finding holding dogs being able to hold so long and stay so injury free.  1 element of many but a key element.

That goes for any dog type cd.   Curs that find and catch that are hunted in finder holder type style, stags which are bred to shred and kill, pits, or purpose bred finder holder style dogs.            More than two dogs on a decent pig and the dynamics between pig and dogs often is changed.    Most cd's will kill smaller pigs or try instead of hold them from what I've seen in all types of hunting and dogs.

One of my rcds used to hold solid and now it looks like he's trying to eat the ear off a hog, he seemed to do it after I started feeding him boar meat, he does seem more jacked up than he used to, maybe I'm hunting to many dogs


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It don't matter what type of dog it is the more dogs u have on the ground will change the atmosphere. That's why less is best. Dogs are pack animals in a pack they go back to being wild and need to demonstrate there pecking order thru aggressive behavior.


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4 months old?Dog's don't even have their adult teeth at 4 months old or the maturity to handle a hog, Personally I would never put a dog that young on a hog in the woods especially if I know they're rough and catch.

That's how my dad always did it from when him n my uncle started hunting in the 70s so that's how I did it

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