Goose…the last comment you made about the old dogs couldn’t figure out what the puppy could figure…those are some of the traits we see when a star is born…when a star is born and as 10 week old puppy can do things that 2 year old good dogs can’t do…

Your logic is right about that pup…

When I set out on this venture to try and develop a family of dogs to suit me and my standard I'll be the first to admit that the intelligence things was of no concern to me, over time and many litters and hide handled and held it has become probably the most important trait I look for out side of a dog with gaminess who wants to run down and eventually tussle with something that badder than  they are, but in the last 8 yrs I've had to help just complete to circle of life that was just a flat out dud albeit a pretty one

I agree with you Goose, I have told folks forever those dogs that are escape artists are smarter than most and that is a plus in any working dog.

Yes indeed, some of the dogs that I've bred and raised out this one particular branch are nearly impossible to keep in a kennel that isn't modeled after Alcatraz, heck the one male in particular that just stood out in intelligence figured out how to get up on his hind legs with the chain stretched tight and move and maneuver his body in motions that would make the end of the chain whip up quick and the ring would be over the stop I'm the ground, I was evicted and optimistic to see his only son doing the exact thing a while back.....

Goose…I do the same with pups…I look for those that figure things out…looking for things the pups do without needing any training to do these things…also looking for natural winding nose…and those that find more hidden treats in the back yard…I then visualize my pups working in the woods even though my backyard is way way smaller…

Since we’re way off topic…

New Year’s Eve night I was concerned about my 9 week old pups, with all the noise with the fireworks that will be cracking the still of night and possibly traumatizing them…

I already know a few things about the  pups…the pup that hunts the best does not like out of the routine loud noises…at the first firework pops she bolted to the shed and crawled under and stayed a good while…the second pup, it was minutes later with quite a few fireworks popping before she joined her sister…a while later their brother joined them…
The 4th pup…the noise didn’t faze him…

The only one that concerns me is the first one even though she hunts the hardest…i will see at a future date if her being over sensitive to new and loud noises will be a problem…she’s not out any time soon because she is not shy…just over cautious…

Cautiousness or high awareness can go hand in hand, lets you know she's paying attention to the world around her, but on a bad note if the fear keeps up it may be early signs of mental instability and can't handle out of routine occurrences, only time will tell and she's in the right hands to have the problem fixed if there is one, one of those problem solvers I kept was my Lucy gyp, New Year's Eve my son and his cousins were setting some cannons off and rattling the neighbors Windows two miles down the road, she's was just as lively and bouncing around on her chain like it was nothing, never had the chance to see her reaction to that type of stimulus, she's was also one of the first ones to make me start watching hard how the pups handled themselves around the house, was barely 6 weeks old and I came inside one day and she's on my couch, thinking my son brought her in I put her back out, I took a nap and about 30 minutes later I'm being licked in the face by this little pup, nobody but me there to let her in, so I put her back out and within a few minutes she's right back inside, she learned herself how to get the dog door open on my back door and make herself at home, and had figured away to climb up on a footstool, get on my recliner, walk over my blanket bin and onto the couch, this was her first day ever up at the house, and within an hour she had done this while the rest were running around whining and sniffing everywhere, I kept her just bc of that, to some that may be something stupid to consider but it showed me she had enough brains and mental to figure things out on her own, heck some of my grown dogs that were just yard ornaments and alarms for petty neighbors never figured the dog door out unless it was left open....

I remember years ago reading about a study done on foxes that were tamed or domesticated from wild foxes for the fur market but as generations went by in domestication their ears, coat, tail carriage, and disposition changed since the folks wanted and chose "calmer" foxes they somewhat lost the necessity for the wild attributes controlled by these adrenal gland hormones.
This is waaay too deep and really stretching  my pea brain and minimal education and I'm not smart enough to be able to apply it in any reasonable amount of time for it to be of any use to me other than maybe have a tiny bit of understanding as to how it works and came about.

the foxes you are talking about changed very quickly...the researchers thought it should take many generations before these drastic changes could occur...they were wrong, as many they have been in many other cases...nothing new about that...

one theory on what caused this is when they were selectiong the foxes to breed, they were looking for the traits that were people friendly and also for not being shy towards people...when selecting for these traits there were other traits that were tied to those traits such as the tricolor and droopy ears...

I also believe as I have posted before...folks say to pick pups for intelligence...many do not or cannot explain what that means...

Just like the foxes...when we pick for winding, drifting and ranging...we are looking for those traits...but when we are looking for those traits, we must realize that those traits are tied in directly to intelligence...so selecting for those traits as natural ability we are also indirectly selecting for natural intelligence with most not knowing that this is actually happening...this is a personal theory, but I would bet money on it to be right...

Pertaining to your last paragraph, intelligence has different meaning for different folks, I was once asked by my aunt who is a Labrador retriever fanatic, what I meant when I kept referring to intelligence, and in the same sentence she's trying to show me how smart and "intelligent" her adorable newspaper shredder was by showing me her tricks she could do that she had taught her while also trying to downplay my "hunting dogs", later that evening I already knew about a dumbfounding moment I had seen her lab do time and again, you could open her kennel while she was distracted by something else and she run right past the the wide open door about to go frantic bc she couldn't get out, you would have to leash her and pull her through the gate, every time all her life, but hey she could sit, stay, shake , and rollover, so I asked aunt may if her dear old Maggie was so smart then why in the he!! Was  she barking about to go into a fit bc she was being let out of her kennel, same as everyday, but couldn't for the life of her slow down and long enough to figure out where the gate was time and again after having to lead through it every time, over time I finally got her to understand that me definition of intelligence in my dogs in a short summary was that they were problem solvers, and figured everyday task around the house out quick and remembered them as little pups, I just started keeping the ones that could figure things out that I never intended to show or expose them to, several generations later and I'm now getting dogs off one particular branch of the family tree that are scary smart, to the point that some of the things that they do just has sitting there puzzled at how did they figure that out, that's also seeming to correlate to the woods as the ones who learn the ways and routes  of different game after only few runs, and are smart track running, off topic as I usually am but this time it ain't my, one of the guys above me started it, I swear....

I've seen it time and again that the length of the ears didn't have near as much influence on scenting ability than it did with what was between those ears.....

 Getting dogs that can replicate themselves and all that you like about them into their offspring and onto the generations to follow, and second would be as already been said, having dogs that have the finesse to work a settled hog but enough salt and attitude to make a rank runner decide it's a better idea to sit still and be barked at instead of trying to make a break....

Is he sleeping in quarters that have any damp or old bedding?

NLA  I still like those dogs of yours. I’m BIG on the eye of an animal, people too for that matter. I’d bet all this dogs are nice but that first red motley dog has a really good eye!


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Them eyes can tell a feller a whole lot if he knows how to read them, birds or beast.....

Man that's a bad deal all the way around, what's a man in his shoes supposed to do you know, situation like that your basically being held by the nuts with a pair of vise grips, I feel a hint of guilt come over me when I think to myself there's no way in he!! I'm getting it, then I thought of my own son and know beyond a shadow of a doubt I'd do what's necessary for him and his well being even if it meant doing something I'm against to the core of my existence just as your friend did, when I first heard of the ivomectin remedy I could completely see that being not just another headline bc over the years whenever I'd have dogs come down with a strange ailment normal remedies wouldn't work my options of last resort was to shoot a double dose of ivomectin in them and just about every time whatever it was would clear on up in a day or so afterwards....

Just want to send a God bless you your way brother, I've been right where your at before and it's completely nerve racking in all aspects,don't get discouraged and give in when all seems lost, one day your going to look across your yard and your mind will bring you back to these times and a sense of pride and accomplishment will come with that quick glance at what you've created, and the work that YOU put in doing it,at least your on top of things, crush up some fresh garlic cloves and oregano and soak them in a jar of water, mix some of that water solution in your milk at every feeding, look up ropa poultry supply, they sale a product that is a chicken supplement, it's mainly oregano oil concentrate, where this is used coccidiosis doesn't exits any longer and a good portion of the poultry industry is going away from conventional medicine altogether to this and other oregano oil based products , this stuff is the truth, however the garlic and oregano is easily and readily available at your local grocery store, I'd start that ASAP, it'd boost the effectiveness of the meds and is an immune system booster, and garlic has a sulfa based compound in it, by the way if you've found a reasonable dog friendly vet, if he eats pork, a few packs of sausage or some fresh, clean cut and ready to cook back strap or smoker ready hog, goes ALONG ways, in addition to a hunt invite, research the benefits and uses of the oregano oil, it's some amazing and very useful information that can be bridged and used in the dog world....

She rushes into them like she’s going to bite them but turns away from them at the last second. She targets the ass end like a heeler. She does it to groups and mature hogs. She looks for an opening to single out shoats. She will catch shoats but she will not bite a hog larger than her. She’s 47 lbs. she will pester a mid size hog on the back end until it runs. A sure enough rank hog will run over her and she will jump up squalling, bark a few times and if it don’t run from her, she’ll quit. I can understand her getting intimidated and quitting a rank hog or a large sounder really rallying on her. I hate that she wants to jump and run them.
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She just pesters and pressured them w/o biting them. Quite frankly it’s hard to watch.


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What kinda cur is she, breed and type wise, I feel ya on the aggravation part I can't stand for a dog to want to overly work a settled hog....

Goose she is 3/4 catahoula, 1/8 kelpie, 1/8 bulldog. She’s pretty scatterbred. Her momma was a pretty nice black & tan cat gyp with a good loose baying style. Her Daddy was a real tight, get in a hogs face and bay until he saw an opening to try to catch. He was nice to hunt by himself but he was too catchy to pack hunt. She took his mindset on the bayin to catch part. She hunts and runs a track like her momma. She yips on a hot track or a busted hog that she can see. Neither parent done that.


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That kelpie and bulldog in there is definitely shining through, actually it's an interesting cross, 3 very different style s of working dog, no wonder she's doing that lol, when I was in high school my my uncles healer dog bred one of his cur dogs and we hunted with them for a few seasons until they all got killed or died, now I can visualize what your frustration are bc I've dealt with it with the one pair we had...

She rushes into them like she’s going to bite them but turns away from them at the last second. She targets the ass end like a heeler. She does it to groups and mature hogs. She looks for an opening to single out shoats. She will catch shoats but she will not bite a hog larger than her. She’s 47 lbs. she will pester a mid size hog on the back end until it runs. A sure enough rank hog will run over her and she will jump up squalling, bark a few times and if it don’t run from her, she’ll quit. I can understand her getting intimidated and quitting a rank hog or a large sounder really rallying on her. I hate that she wants to jump and run them.
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She just pesters and pressured them w/o biting them. Quite frankly it’s hard to watch.


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What kinda cur is she, breed and type wise, I feel ya on the aggravation part I can't stand for a dog to want to overly work a settled hog....

That's a really good Wooly hog, I like to see those that express the Russian influence. Got him with one good baydog as well, "I believe you will get more bad hogs bayed with the single baydog" the exception to that is a real goosy hog that might break when he hears the catchdog coming, in which case 2 or 3 dogs bayed make more racket to help cover the noise of the approaching catchdog, especially in the bad briar patches and thickets.

I try to keep a rough kinda dog in the box just for situations like that, if I've got a lone dog bayed and I know it's a going to be a good one I'll try to send only one catch dog if I can, but if we've got to send more than one we'll send the one with the better mouth first, and usually do a 5 count and send another one with the rough dog behind it just for the sake of the hog brakes there's a fresh set of wheels right behind the hog that'll pull that E-brake on one quick...

Austin there's just as many ways and methods to go about setting a family of dogs up as there ways to blow money, I, sure your starting to see that the two go hand in hand lol, seriously thought it's great to have a plan and even greater to see your enthusiasm in taking on this task, I'll be the elephant in the tea parlor, don't take this the wrong way but is something  to chew on, I know you've got the gumption in you to do it based off your prior experiences, it's an indescribable feeling creating a life, but also comes with a heavy responsibility, are you willing to take it if for whatever reason may arise, it's a tough pill to have to swallow to have to end a life you created, nurtured, bonded with, and became friends with, but something that is inevitable, now about your next planned breedings, in reality exactly how many well thought out plans ever actually goes as planned, now factor in how the laws of inheritance and it makes for some head scratching later on, it's great to have a plan to do this or do that, make this cross then breed back to this dog and back to this aunt or uncle, it's good to have your mind on the future but if it were that simple we'd already had the superior dog, the best breeding method is to cross two dogs that you like for whatever reason and think they would pair good, that's step one, until you have raised the pups and have them in the woods and see how each one performs to your liking, some pups are going to lean toward one side of their ancestry more so than the other, now once you've determined which pups will make it to the next step evaluate what made them successful in producing game, and base your next mating off two dogs that are very similar in style and performance, remember the ones who are productive, when your first starting to build your line from your situation only choose those who can get it done to carry on the family, all sentimental and emotional feelings about particular individuals has to go out the window and you have to be brutally honest with yourself, any weak links from the start will eventually cause your chain to brake when the pressures start getting applied, I'm sure you've heard the proverb of building your house on the Rock and not the sand, that should be everyone's standard when their setting out and attempting to go down the road you are now traveling, another key piece of info is when looking at potential broodstock DO NOT breed to those freak of nature superstars without evaluation of its littermates, if 3 out of a litter of 10 are real good dogs but the rest of the litter was mediocre at best, that's not a good turnout percent, only time I'd say make an exception is maybe in a situation like yours where your just starting to set the family line and are also using a concentrated gene pool per say, although your dog aren't line bred for generations if you close the doors to outside stock and breed from a certain group even if unrelated with each passing generation you start narrowing the down the gene pool,  if your were to breed those 3 to other dogs of their caliber and from some kin of some sort and your averages aren't increasing then your headed in the wrong direction, your goal shouldn't be to breed for those lone superstars if your intent is to set a family line, you want to eventually start seeing uniform and consistent litters in positive ways, another thing to consider is breeding two dogs that are similar in all their good aspects but if each have similar faults then your just enhancing the likelihood of enhancing the negative traits just as well as th good, or if you see that a dog is nice in almost every way but maybe have a small shortcoming in one department, might be a little difficult in your case with trying to stay within a certain gene pool, but I'd say seek out a mate that is actually overly abundant in that dept. so your probability of enhancing the shortcoming is greater, if you got a glass of room temperature water, depending on if you want to raise or lower to temperature determines if you put hot or cold water into the glass is of lukewarm, it be kinda difficult to make any adjustments if you only use water that was a few degrees different up or down, don't believe the bull crap about not breeding a dog for years until it's proven itself, if it takes that long then your on a long walkabout going in circles, if your doing things right by two years old is plenty long enough, don't be scared to breed those young dogs who are doing it day in and day out, that should be everyone's goal, and always keep in mind, NATURAL ABILITY BEGETS NATURAL ABILITY, no amount of "training" is going to overcome what is natural instinct....

Thanks Austesus. The little gyp doesn’t use teeth to bust bays. She actually gets a little intimidated by Sounders & mature boars that charge her. She will turn away from them and then close back in on a small hog. She gets run over by a big hog and squalls. After that they bust and she runs after them yippin every breath. I think she wants them to run so she can single out a shoat to catch. She also feels safer running behind them than she does facing them to bay. She’s been on at least 10 good solid 20 plus minute bays with my red dog. Only on mature solo hogs though. Shes bayed her own solo hogs a few times. I was close with the catch dog and got them caught. She’s busted every group she’s been on. I figure her only hope us to spend a lot of time around hogs and in the pen with them. Maybe she can relax and learn to bay. She has a good nose, good mouth, handles good, hunts well. The hard stuff comes easy to her and the easy part is hard for her. I’m gonna spay her and give her some bay pen/mock hunt time. If she learns to bay, I’ll feed her and hunt her. Probably wasting my time but I like her so I’m gonna do it. I dang sure can’t watch her bust anymore bays. My woods time is too valuable.


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Just asking, but how is it that she's busting bays but not putting any teeth on them....

  Hate to hear that Goose. As of now we have 6 pups. The runt died the first night and the rest are all spoken for. If she would have had enough you would have been more the welcome to one of them. If somebody backs out, I'll let you know.

Yep losing the litter of pups was kinda expected considering age of the female, but losing Bella was a hard blow to the gut, she was hands down by far the most intelligent bulldog, heck dog period that I've ever been blessed to own, I believe some of her brains was from the family she was out of but what made her so dang smart that it was scary was she was raised her entire puppy hood in the house by a teenage girl, it's crazy she even acted like a lady, all prim and proper and well mannered, I might own some one day that could be descendants of Einstein but they'll never be her, there's still an awkward empty void in my house and life, my sister found her ran over on the hwy while I was on the road working shutdowns, running a dang fox of all things, my heart sank when she called me squalling her eyes and said " I hate to be the one that has to tell you this", I was scared to death shaking like a leaf thinking something happened to my mother or son, from the time he could comprehend I've always told my son that were almost always going to out live our best friends, it's just the way the world turns, good mannered high performance catch dogs are getting harder and harder to find, I sure thank you for even considering me to began with....

Once the picking is done if you have a female left I'd sure like to buy one from you, lost my good female this last spring and had a run of bad luck trying to get a litter outa two old dogs, so I'm back to square one....

Sam Mason's old buster dog sure had a lot to do with alot of good dogs that is for sure

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He certainly did, more so probably than any other spotted dog sire, he was the result of a full brother sister breeding, which is why I believe was one of the reasons he was such a prepotent reproducer, a good portion of the blood that makes up my dogs go back to him, we've line bred off two separate litters from two littermates that were directly off of him, my old little girl dog and my best friends stud dog Walt are great grand pups off him, the sure enough colder nose track working spotted cur dogs that I've seen were with my own eyes have all been descendants of his within a few generations, we have a litter that just hit a yr on Father's Day that are off of Walt and Lil girl and one of the females came out looking and patterned just like old Buster....

Hugh Murray put the dogs together and had much to do with the blood getting together. He put together Wager's, Myer's, and Mason's blood. That's how the dogs got started in Georgia. He used the Buster dog of Sam Mason's several times. Hugh's kennel prefix was HCM's. Joey(Nine Run's) and Eddie Denison came into the picture and tried to build on what Hugh has done. A 400acre pen with hogs and lots of puppies on the ground made them a hot commodity for several years; but they got too far away from what made the dogs and lost the blood needed to keep things going. The term 'Dennison Dog" didnt come around till about 10 years ago. Hugh put the blood together 30 years ago.   

Stanton thanks for clarifying that and sharing what you know about them, I've heard before almost word for word what you said but wasn't quite sure I remembered it correctly and didn't want to pass along to much misinformation and is why I didn't bother trying to put it altogether....

Gosh dang that tuff is so easy in the eyes, he a fine specimen for sure....