Gammonwood Mastiffs in NZ/AU runs an English Mastiff x Greyhound Cross - an outcross to improve health in the English Mastiff.

Hopefully we get something similar using performance selected stock.


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Yes. The particular dog pictured - his grandsire is my female mastino’s father - Hunter Kennel’s Red Devil - aka Cello

Still planning the pairing - it’ll just occur this fall.

Hatchet is doin well - currently growing out his son and a younger daughter. Super outgoing line of stags - act a lot like Labrador’s, confident socially with sound environmentals.


Cass is maturing nicely and is goin on 3 this fall.



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Just touching base and re-reading all the insight and constructive criticism you all have provided.

Coming from a working dog/sport/ and protection dog background - it’s apparent that  I’m not much of a hog dogger, but the information you all have provided is invaluable.

I can respect Dogmen from all walks of life. Especially when it comes to their understanding of canine genetics, drives and selective breedings, and have incorporated that insight into my new kennel website.

I have a Sighthound molosser pairing this spring and wanted to know people experience with staghound crosses


The following pictures are of an F1 pairing of a racing greyhound x English Mastiff. For those who don’t know - the Gammonwood outcross project in New Zealand is rooted in protecting the health and integrity of the English Mastiff

My outcross project isn’t rooted in the betterment of purebred dogs - but rather the (re)creating of the running Mastiff or “heavy hound” type dog. 






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Working Bandog pup.
Located in MD. $500

Second Pick female - super strong nerves, very high prey-drive. Would make a suitable catch dog or guard dog/family pet.

Raised with children. Very affectionate and biddable. Lightest in frame. Most apbt like in type and temperament. Likely 26-27” and 85-90lbs at maturity

Father competes in protection sports and is a proven catch dog. (Hog dog import from Queensland Australia)

Mother is family guard dog.

Both parents are extremely stable and easily handleable

Mastino Gamepit(Boyle’s/Eli) boerboel cross


Additional pics/vids avail upon request.
DM for info


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T-Dog

That’s some of the more sound advice dropped. Two similar but different families of dogs who excel in different things.

Regardless of specialization - what I Breed and test for - are traits that allow a dog to succeed at either. Who the dog develops into (old enough to show preferences and capabilities) around 14-16mo will really determine where they excel. What’s most important is giving them the chance to mature, explore these traits responsibly. And allow them the opportunity to do what they are best at.

Many of the traits I select and test for - are not only transferable (for man or hog work) but also really just the basis for a sound, confident animal. If a dog doesn’t have the basics - the fundamentals - it won’t be used.

Puppy observation tests around 6-8weeks include

Testing for nerve/confidence/curiosity

Tossing a jar of rocks into a puppy pile - who takes off tail tucked and running. Who chases the jar excitedly. Who runs away but comes back to investigate. Who barks at it from a distance.

Playing tug with a rag - observing bite style and tenacity (who stays committed to a grip) - and for the stronger pups - who stays committed to the grip when the jar of rocks is shaken over head

Popping an umbrella open - purposely startling the pups

Who takes off running. Who stands firm. Who barks defensively. Who’s first to investigate.

Although puppies mature differently - some of these tests have served me quite well in picking individuals capable of working and working well. It demonstrates sound confident dogs who can meet challenges head on and what I feel a first demonstration of just WHO the dog is.

I test dogs defensively around 14-18mo depending how they are bred. A simple backtie test with a suspicious stranger who makes their way towards the dog about 50yards away is all it takes. 

When will the dog start trying to create avoidance behavior in the suspicious stranger? At 50yards or at 10? Are you tucking tail and turning around exhibiting stress and avoidance or are you taught at the end of the leash coming forward curiously or letting out some cautionary barks. Are you just so confident that you’re not barking at all?


Everydog doesn’t make the cut. Everydog won’t be bred. Everydog won’t be suitable for high level work. Crossbreeding doesn’t guarantee consistency. But hopefully selection - with the understanding that I may get two lines will.

I already know the first crosses - won’t give me dogs suitable for man work. But rather ingredients I can build upon.

Thanks for the feedback!




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@ Rednose

Thank you for the honesty and candor. I am by no means an expert, my experience stems from the Working PP/Sport world. Being able to engage in productive and meaningful conversation with people as passionate about their dogs is paramount. I have certainly received plenty of food for thought - and everyone has engaged in a way to help me create an ideal dog.

I think whats important here is the ability to utilize dogs who do not re-direct on other dogs/man in the midst of the activity. A clear headed and stable dog is able to continue working even while distractions are abound. It is a disaster when a dog disengages from the decoy on the field and makes its way to the crowd. I've seen it happen more than once, and speaks to the nerve and capabilities of the animal.

When it comes to manwork - really a dog who displays territorial aggression, yet has the gusto to engage is more of what I'm looking for. Not one who is a loose cannon and hops off a hog just to tag its owner, the dog next to it, or your buddy out on the hunt. That is an unstable dog who has no business working with or alongside others. Currently all my dogs are clear headed and need to be. I don't do undue aggression, lack of stability, or dogs who confront insecurity with aggression.

I believe my first crosses (neopresa x stag, and stag/ab)  will be capable  hog dogs. These heavy sighthound crosses will eliminate all man aggression/defensive drive - and really equate to solid moloss/bull lurchers. Seen quite a few in my travels and they get the job done well. It all comes down to individual selection, heavy testing and appropriate culling. Adding the  athletic molosser/ or bull breeds on top with a hint of defense - MAY add that back, but its all the experiment.

Thank you for the time and consideration. I'll def have some straight crosses i'll be posting in the dog trade section, and would love to see them in the hands of people who'll put them to use.

I’m pretty up to date in the Bandog game. Have a good working relationship with quite a few breeders and Have access to a lot here on the midatlantic

The leucero line as well as the andante/on-off/extasy are all the same thing. I’ve Seen a handful of those dogs work - most arnt what they were in the early 2000s. They are mostly very defensive, not very prey driven - PP dogs who are harder to train in high level sport work. They excel as Home guardians and I can see how - in your experience it was so-so on hogs.

Roger Williams did have some neo abs and neo ab x dutchie crosses. The dutchie blood added that speed and herder intensity. But you also saw a decrease in pain thresholds with half herder blood.

As for the neos used - there was some controversy that the neos in SA went full blooded and were instead Bandogs. Not that it mattered a whole lot imo. But the individuals used - is what makes the crosses.

I’d take a driven Neo over a flat Bandog if it made for a Stable Balanced working cross.

With that said -

Not all sport dogs make good PP dogs
Not all PP dogs make good sport dogs
Not all mandogs make good hogdogs
Not all hogdogs make good mandogs.

And that’s the difficulty in creating a “dual purpose dog” yes there’s beauty in the specialization aspect. Individual breed ARE specialists.

But what’s even harder is maintain a level of balance and stability in a population of dogs capable of doing both.

The greatest fear is that I’d run into the problem of jack of all trades master of none.

And that starts with ensuring the individuals selected and incorporated in a program are balanced, thoroughly tested, and placed in the hands of skilled individuals willing to provide honest and critical feedback.









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This is a rather long thread - im sure some things may have been overlooked. With that said

My attempt is the recreate the coursing Mastiff. I want a dog capable of doing catchwork. I want a dog capable of doing manwork.




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@judgepeel

Greatly appreciate your feedback big man.
That’s what the thread is for. Thank you for the contributions. You’ve given me food for thought.

No doubt about it. I love me some gamedogs.


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And lets be honest.

Apbt added to anything improves a breed.

A Bandog is an inferior pitbull
But a superior Mastiff


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@TheRednose

The feedback is invaluable. This is a very productive, informative thread that speaks to the experiences and preferences of others. You’ve expanded upon very valid points and I thank you for your suggestions.

I can certainly understand the assumed level of gameness in true apbts - and how that can solidify a level of reliability.

I also feel that larger pits - over 75/80lbs arnt necessairly game dogs. I work very closely with a Virgil mayday grunt dog who’s 75 conditioned. The rest that I’ve seen that large are scatterbred streetpits - not gamedogs.

It’s true - the present day Mastino is a monstrosity of a guard dog. Over exaggerated in type and likely lacking heart courage and will. But I can respect the original phenotype. One where the Mastino and corso were the same breed - and were tasked with farm work and all it entails (guarding flock guardian and catchwork)
They are Mastiffs - not bulldogs

I personally am not a die hard hog hunter. I have more humans than hogs in my part of the neighborhood. And a dog I can reliably count on to engage a human when necessary is something I value. If the dog can catch - I have a dog who is merely showcasing versatility. I like dogs with balanced drives. Both high in prey and defense. I participate in PP sports. Most* gamepits run into conflict when engaged in manwork. Majority of American bulldogs, Bandogs and Mastiffs don’t.

Horses for Courses.

A sporting dog is very different from a working dog. I value the gamebred dog - one of the finest demonstrations of both natural and artificial selection. But with that - comes limitations. How many gamedogs will happily walk away with a stranger?

My attempt is to recreate a coursing Mastiff. Who - while not renowned for gameness in the traditional sense - is capable of manwork, and a level of catchwork.




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I’m very appreciative of a the feedback. I’m coming from a sport/pp dog background and looking to accumulate as much knowledge as I can get as I look to create a more functional working type Mastiff

I’m just starting to really get into the hunting game with my own dogs. Have a few close friends providing guidance and working what I’m producing. But really want to get a feel for what people make the decision to feed. The terrain they run, and the preferences they have

I happen to have a few dogs in my kennel that I’m planning to breed to create a dog very similar to the dark brindle dogs pictured
That dog is neo presa x grey in the UK


I have a working stag (Russian wolfhound deerhound Grey) out of Tibbs stouffer and feather lines who’s parents are a head and throat dog on coyotes and solid ear dogs on hogs. I’m planning on taking his father to my female neo x presa import from the UK. And my pup to my AB.




Depending on how they are thrown some will be lighter framed than others. There was quite a bit of variation in that UK litter. The purpose of the breeding being to improve the physical health of the Neapolitan Mastiff - they greyhound being a complete outcross.

This is one of the larger framed dogs compared to his siblings.


They didn’t place emphasis on proven working dogs/working ability as they did on physically sound breed types. Im hoping the stock I’m using makes all the difference.




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Appreciate it gentlemen. I have no plans to throw her on hogs atm. She’s being groomed to become my high level bitework/ sport competition dog.

So far I’m EXTREMELY pleased with how she’s turning out.

In the meantime - I’m looking to compliment this Bandogs strengths/mitigate his weaknesses (excessive size/weight) and am actively seeking feedback.

I have a few dogs here in my stable - and would love to make an all around running catch dog. Ultimately one capable of working hogs/coyote with some defense drive/man aggression.

This dog is pretty close to my ideal “running catchdog type” - and is in the UK. He’s a neoXPresa x Grey

 

Looks to have good leg - likely decent wind.
A “light coursing Mastiff” of sorts.

Would this be something avid hog hunters would appreciate? Is this dog too light in type? And what are the experiences hunting with Sighthound/staghound blood.

Someone was kind enough to mention how the bite style changed? Does heavy Sighthound blood make them “head and neck dogs” as opposed to dogs who catch on the ear?




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If you don’t mind me asking...

Where did your heavy screaming eagle ab blood come from?

Dave pope? Henry?

Just wondering...

I have a dog linebred off KRK’s Big Bruno - who actually just recently passed. My female pup is Heavy koura leclerc with a quarter boyd blood.

Gift from a mentor of mine.
Feel free to shoot me a direct message.


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In my opinion you don't need to up intensity for a catch dog, the best catch dogs go from catching to laidback as soon as they are off the hog. I always thought 100# dog was too big till I saw a good one. I would be looking at something tighter lipped cause he will chew those lips up on a busy hog catching day. Sight hound may be good if you are hunting more open country but their way of catching is quite different than bulldog types so it may be inconsistent in the litter.

Ha. Those lips def get caught in bitework from time to time.

And you do have a point about catch style variation. I haven’t seen enough first generation crosses (bull lurchers) on hogs
But would think a 3/4 bull x Sighthound would keep that bite style consistent 

I have a young male stag I’m growin up atm. Parents are coyote and hog dogs. Think I might have to use him later down the line


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He’s a large dog. 28.5” and 120 conditioned. I’m looking for ways to improve upon him if he were ever to be bred.

He’s a phenomenal Home guardian. Great in personal protection sports. And instinctively - knows his way around a hog - but his sheer size is a limiting factor.

I have a really nice performance AB. Heavy screaming eagle blood. Would likely lighten up his frame a bit while upping the intensity.

Just thinking of how he could be used in mindful crosses that working/hunting homes would appreciate.

I’m playing with the idea of incorporating some Sighthound blood.


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Greatly appreciate it. He’s really more of functional working type Mastiff.

I’m really trying to determine what potential hog hunters prefer in a larger type dog (if they even have use for one) 


 


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Hey all,

Went to school in Australia and ended up doin a fair bit of hog hunting. Got hooked. And had the option to bring back a dog.

The pack I ran with had a few finders/bailers and some large catch dogs - deep generation Mastiff x apbt crosses. This Old Italian immigrant family had been running these dogs for 60yrs. Old school corso/Mastino types.

Turned out both the sire and the dam were extremely hard catch dogs with wind and nose. So when they had a litter I brought one back to the states.

I don’t have many hogs on my side of town but have been training this monster up in personal protection sports. He’s been a great working dog - super high prey drive. Fool chases leaves/bees/trash blowing in the wind. Very athletic for a Mastiff with Good territorial aggression/defense and man aggression. A well rounded and balanced dog.

Needless to say - threw him on his first hog and he blew me out the water. He was a natural. And I’ll def be taking him out. Strapping a vest on him. And goin after bigger game.

The question being....


How many run larger catchdogs - and at what point does size inhibit ability?

I’ve seen quite a few functional crosses in Australia. Bandogs. Bull Mastiffs x Dane. Wolfhound x Mastiffs. Cane corsos x bull Arabs?

Is 120lbs the upper limits for hog dog athleticism and ability?

What would turn off perspective hunters about a dog that size?

I’m just pleased that this Bandog works.
I’m looking to further prove him on game.












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Spent some time down in OZ and tagged along on some hunts.

Ended up bringing home a little Bandog pup.

Those arabs are like a more solid bull lurcher. Ebt x pointer x running dog  makes for a nice running catch dog.

Good nose dogs
Nice grit and some brains.


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I have different opinions than most. There is a huge difference in the word rough dependin on who you are talking to. Theres what i tent to call counterfeit rough and theres true committed rough, counterfeit rough (entirely my opinion)  is a dog that gets right in ones face and goes to fightin/biting and gettin whooped on and doesnt flat out catch then theres dogs that go about it in a smarter fashion with a bit more sense. Dogs that barrel in wide open have alot better chance of being cut down than dogs that take their time, wait for the right moment to get a piece and when they do they dont let go. Now at the end of the day rough is rough and sooner or later they will pay for it, i just know that some dogs go about it way smarter than others.....same as catchdogs, some run wide ass open and bulldoze the hog and some  take that extra couple seconds to pick their shot but when they do they usually connect.

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Excellent post. A smart "rough" dog is skilled in combat. A dumb "rough" dog is full steam ahead.

Hunting style is important. But I need my team to be strategic. Get in. Shut him down. And keep moving to the next hog. Without sacrificing life and limb in the process.

I'm not agains a catchdog that bails and strikes at the right moment.

Ali chose when to strike. I want my catch dogs to do so as well.


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