yep, but there is more to the story. I learned a few more dogs came from the Alice area. I too had talked to Rex. He sent me copies and copies of research  he had done about the leopards, plotts, julys and Birdsongs over the years. Even the hand written letter from Cowboy Williams about the leopard dogs that Mcduffie had.  Rex at the time was unaware of the Sunflower Hound Kennel in Aledo Tx ran by Mr Pool back in the 1890's (1890 was the first ad I found in a news paper). They sold red bones-irish slashers crosses and birdsong strains and also advertised fox hounds. Rex thinks the july and Birdsongs have a heavy influence on the leopards since you can find leopard spotted July's and Birdsongs.  Maybe thats why he bred Jull's in to his stuff. I know it made a sure enough go getter and dang good dogs.  Rex saw these dogs as a young man and can confirm that they produced "like" litters. Another words they produced litters that were consistent in looks and traits. Crosses will usually produce pups that resembles looks of one or the other parent and yes a blend of both too, but the second and third generation will throw a few pups that look like one or the other grandparents. Rex stated these dogs produced consistent like litters. Rex is only one of the guys that told me about Alice Tx. Now there has been a couple others. Like all good stories and legends of dogs these leopards that McDuffie had resurrected from almost extinction it  needed a story.  I think thats why the mexico story about rabbits came about.... He just couldn't say "well I bought these catahoulas from texas..."  LOL

I have no doubt that the old leopard dog is still out there, but it is of catahoula origin or maybe older like the Pastor Leones that the spanards brought over in the 1400's. (they are leopard spotted too).  Now what was all mixed with it?? Who knows for sure. I guess why we call them curs, but maybe  Mr Outlaw or another person down in that area had something that McDuffie built his leopards curs from.   I still think Stodghill had a lot to do with it.

Oh dont forget about the A.W. Carter strain pf leopards that McDuffie and couple others brought in. Mr Carter moved up from florida with his leopard spotted cow dogs used for catching cracker cows. I've got a pretty good article about him in a CO-OP mag that talks about them.  McDuffie and them got them because some of them would tree game.

thanks

mike

Briar  as far as looks only, I'm looking for a leopard spotted cur with 2 to 4" hair.  With 3 to 4" floppy cur ears and a nice eye stop. She's a nice looking spotted dog, but not enough hair for me. She could be. I'd like to know if she trees, open on track and has free hanging floppy ears

Cats and old leopards do look a like in a lot of ways. Leopards seem to have more hair, more tree than cats and open on track. Most leopards now a days look real real  houndy and are getting slicker and slicker coated, big ears and have a  hound style of running tracks. Thats why I'm looking in the direction of Alice Texas.  4 dogs came from down in that area.  They became the foundation of the ALCBA. These dogs would have had thick double coated hair like a shepherd would have, but leopard spotted. Later on McDuffie wrote that he thought the leopards descended from the old style farm shepherd. Stodghill ran the ARF and was the first to register Catahoulas in the US.   Stodgehill also had advertised and sold both old style english shepherds and Old style scotch collies (also known to some as old time farm shepherds) in the 1940's.  McDuffie picked 30 or so dogs from Mr Stodghill in the early 60's. Now he said that they where all culls, but I doubt that.  Then came back again and picked up more dogs. Cowboy Williams was his contact back then. The sweet talk strain that Fred French ran and raised  was a leopard that was registered as ALC  in the ALCBA by McDuffie and also as a Cat with the ARF with Stodghill. The story I've heard is McDuffie asked if Stodghill would register his leopards and Stodghill said yes, but they would be registered as Catahoulas. Funny that the leopard cur/hound has almost the same standard and history as the cats do. I believe McDuffie took what he learned from Stodghill and Started the ALC association. You got to remember to that dogs where added through out the years. A lot of these were registered regardless of ancestry and more about what McDuffie and other owners of the Registry thought represented a leopard and leopard traits....   

Man I could go on and on.  I love looking into these old curs.

thanks

mike

thank you sir

mike

Thank you Mr Roberson. On more than one occasion I have heard of some of the foundation stock of the McDuffie leopard curs coming from this area. One of the names popped up was Kirkpatrick or Kilpatrick and Cowboy Williams. This would have been in the early 60's.  Would Mr. Don Outlaw  have any contact info on folks that still may have some of the old Outlaw blood? Again these would have , in some cases, been as hairy as shepherds.

Thanks again for the reply.

Mike

Ok I'm still digging around on leopard history.  I've had several good leads over the years about dogs across the state. One town in particular has come up in several conversations about an old style leopard cur with lots of hair that and had all kinds of natural ability and that's the town of Alice Tx.  So i'm looking for any contact info of folks that still may be raising a type of leopard/cat cur that would be hairy like a farm shepherd, aprox 60 to 80 lbs, merle  with tan/ red trim or black and tan in color. These dogs would have been a multiple use dog. From guarding and herding to hunting.  I would like to find some of these leopards. I'm hoping to find someone who has had their line for years and years.

any info will help. You can text me,  private message me or shoot me an email.

thanks

mike 

254-631-9883     mike.rogers1967@yahoo.com

great little video!! Nice looking cur dogs...

good looking pup.

sorry to hear that. We'll keep y'all in our thoughts and prayers

Those sure are some fine looking dogs. I think it would be interesting to know if there's any of that line left...

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I believe  there was a article that states he left Louisiana with 30 or so dogs when he came to texas the later on into new mexico and into the gila. Hard for a man to travel with that many dogs. I'd bet theres traces of them somewhere out there....

thanks josh223.  I'll blow that thing up so I can look at him. Found one article that says catahoula, but a couple of them look more like blue dogs. Thanks again

mike

good looking pups..

great looking pups. I really like the looks of that momma dog.  I like the male too, but that female is really nice.

super nice looking pups. Looking real good on that piggy. Hows there mouths?

Where's Barlow? This thread is right in his wheelhouse...

boy it sure is. I've talked to Brian about leopards and blue lacys a while back.  In fact I'm still looking into those yellow and leopard spotted lacys that Brian talked about. Mainly the leopard spotted ones. If anyone has seen one then please let me know.

Been an interesting thread.

In the end we all breed the way we want to breed. We breed the type of dog that we like to hunt, that benefits us, pleases us or even just something we just like looking at. Whether we have luck in line breeding and inbreeding or outcrossing.  In the end it's up to the individuals on the directions we take. 

We all have opinions on how to get to where we want to be. Respecting each other opinions and thoughts on how to get there as we go.  Learning a little here and there and teaching a little here and there.

I like the line and inbreeding part of dog breeding myself. Mainly to help control the good traits compared to the bad ones. Only outcrossing to a cousin when the line needs it. To tight and you'll loose size and sometimes stability in the litter and too loose we take the chance on a couple of generations of bad characteristics were we're back breeding to get away from it and get back to what we had.  Breeding like dogs to like dogs in a family can sure help you get a line that produces a consistent litters.  The hybrid vigor in a male in an outcross is sometimes lost after the 2nd and 3rd generations when not line breeding. Yes the hybrid can and does produce top quality pups it's just sometimes those pups wont produce the vigor of the original male.  Don't forget the females in this equation too. I believe a female is more important than the males sometimes. After all she caring and introducing 50% of pups genes.

mike





   

There is a good little old article written by Tom Stodghill  (the owner of the ARF and the first one to register the old catahoulas). It's about clockwise breeding and using a hub sir. Some even think that McDuffie may have used this info and breeding guidelines for the leopards.  If y'all want it posted then I'll dig it up this weekend.

this thread has been some good reading for me.

mike

I've been looking for a picture of Ben Lilly's old Crook dog. I've found several old pictures on line, but nothing that states it's Crook. So I'm hoping one of y'all will have a picture. 

thanks for any help y'all can give

mike

good looking pups

good looking pup....

My male dog  had a big spot come up on his side. It ended up being an abscess. Maybe from a thorn or something. Got as a big as a football. He's all good now but still missing a little hair....

it was nice meeting you today Clay. Keep in touch on the pup and I'll work on us going on some hunts

Mike