Cattle/horse breaking pups

[Noah]

I've never done anything special before, but I've never had this many to start at once either... My pups are just getting to that age I'd like to start bringing them along, but I've got to get them "tuned" before I bring them to any of our cattle/horse properties.  Typically I just put one pup with older, broke dogs.  At the most, a quick scold, or bump with a training collar, and these single pups usually have no problems learning the game. 

This time however, I've got 4 ROUGH sob's to start that don't seem to be phased by much... One slipped a collar this morning(6mnth old) and caught my gelding by the ham... with me on him .  Luckily I had my rommel reins and was able to knock her in the head a couple good times before he killed her(and me ).   Even after I jumped off I had to about knock her out to get her to quit .   

This is gonna take some time to get these dogs tuned, that's for sure.

Any and all methods of getting young dogs used to stock would be most appreciated.  Thanks, Noah

[Mr. HG]

I kinda have had some issuses with this with Realdogs bringing in his  catch  dog stock around horses but like you said thats all it going to take is a little time. I would only let out as many as I can watch at one time so you won't get in a wreck. I let my young pups run around them all the time and even let them bay them when there real young then I call them out thats starting my handling process.I spoke about some of this same thing in my other thread about young dogs.I set it up to work my pups to start to put a handle on them getting them off cows and horses and goats and donkey what ever it is so when I take them at around 6 months they are ready to hunt. Des

[Noah]

Actually, I had already told myself I was going to take that colt into the dog paddock and whoop some tail for all the barking I'd been forced to hear as I rode...  It's a good thing I didn't, I don't believe I could've kept 4 of those gremlins off of him

So what's your weapon of choice?  I prefer a good 3 1/2-4'  green palm branch personally, I know I could use the collar, but I just don't like what it does to their brain.  With hard headed dogs, you end up shocking them so much I think it damages their personality...

On a side note, just got back from a hunt... just about came back one dog short... My Snappa dog has decided that she doesn't "like" to hunt at night.... Ellie bayed her butt off several times, but Snappa just wouldn't stay with her in the dark.  She'd "go to" but all that did was push the hogs...  She better step up during the day this wknd or else.

[Noah]

On the point of allowing young dogs to bay cattle(or whatever), do you think that "dulls" them or do you think it might turn them on to it?   I've heard both arguments, but then again, it may just depend what type of dog you're dealing with.  These dogs I'm starting now, I'm scared to death to allow them to bay a cow... I believe it would only make them hotter....

Another old timer told me he keeps his on a 20' piece of rope and leads them through the herd. NEVER allowing them to bay a cow.  That's his way and his dogs won't trash... but that's just one of many ways to skin that cat

[Mr. HG]

Noah I'm in a different sitition with my dogs I am not only after hog dogs I'm after stock dogs.My pups are loose alot so I don't start saying get out or that will do until they start baying something most of the time its a cat or a grown dog first. I'm on 350 plus acres at home and over a 1000 at work so they get to be pups and explore.We have stock all kinds even a huge macaw cage so around here your dog better be broke.Take one at a time its to hard to try to train more than one pup at a time right, put him with a dog with a good handle and start to work I don't make it a habit hitting my dogs I throw a rock or shock them off I hate something that is shy from whipping it so I don't go that route.Realdogs  catch dogs have never been around horses until we started hunting together on one hunt I was horse back between the bay and where he released the dog and the dog jumped at the horse I turned the horse and said get out of it he stopped he heard the dogs baying in front of me and went and caught the hog. So we worked his catch dogs around the horses and discourged them it didn't take much now its no problem.The stuff you don't understand or not confident about doing don't do. Do what you can do the best you will be better satisfied most people that are good at anything has messed up a few things at first now there better at it thats called experience. Again only an opionion. Des

[Noah]

Thanks Des, very good point on one pup at a time, I probably would've tried to do at least a couple and it would sure of been a wreck   On the "training aid" thing, I prefer a good switch any day, not that any of my dogs are shy.  But they all know when I say quit, they better quit.  That shock collar's great for most dogs, but I've seen hard headed dogs that it just didn't work on.

[tanner handley]

i rilly aint for shur we hunt on horses most of the time but we dont use catchdogs and none of our cur dogs mess with our horses much! sry!!!!

[jdt]

i think sometimes they need the switch, and sometimes the collar works best. in that situation [ the dog catching the horse you were on] i would have done what you did and got personel with him. on the other side if the dog is just kinda trying to work and i want to break him of that i would start with a scold and then go to the collar. i have a three dog unit and it has 18 levels of stimulation . i cant keep up with that much so i just keep turning it upand telling them until they get the idea. i beleive it depends on the dog too.just like horses they all respond differently, i mean what will fix one will ruin the next one.  its our job to figure out what each one needs.   just my thoughts.

[Noah]

I've been taking each one out when I ride and tying them to the arena fence while I work.  As long as they sit and relax I leave them alone, if they show aggression I tell them to quit and get after them if necessary.  Definitely making progress.  Just gonna take a looong time to do all four of 'em...

Thanks for all the suggestions, I enjoy hearing how others do it!

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Noah,

I have all my dogs broke to the stock whip. When they hear the crack they better stop what they are doing and come to me. I may have to tap a dog once, at the most twice, but the sound of the whip and my voice is all that I usually need. My puppy pen is right beside one of my pasture water tanks, so horses are coming in to water a couple times a day and most of the pups just learn to ignore them. If I have one that still wants to bay the horses I will take it to the pasture with some broke dogs and carry my stock whip, any time the pup acts gamey towards the horse I am ridding I will crack the whip and say "get out". One time is all it takes usually. When I am working cattle I often load my dogs in the trailer with the horses so by the time they go to work there is no issu.

Paul T

[jdt]

btw, noah are u gonna keep al them ruff s o b s, or do ya want to let me have one or two?

[Noah]

I've been trying to get my whip skills down Paul, right now, 2 out of 3 times I just end up wrapping it up in my horse's legs... good tip though

jdt, February is my proving month... I've got a 30 day public hunt that will allow the cream to rise to the top... then I'll consider thinning out.  I have no doubt in the gameness or hunt in any one of them.  I'm thinking it's gonna be more of a matter of which one(s) survive that hunt more than anything.

[craig]

i have a tri tronics  6 dog system .i just have 3 collars now but thats the best way to break them, with out having a dog that cows down every time you come around them or scold them or become hard to catch.
 you have to use some common sense when using a shock collar, dont get mad and over do it !!

it'll just take a couple of times and they are not near as hard headed as you thought.

 a good shock collar is the best investment you can make if you have anykind of dog.

 good luck

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

I have worked dogs that were whip broke and dogs that were shock collar broke, and there is a differance. The whip broke dogs seem to be bolder in the field and hunt without fear of punishment. My whip broke dogs will hunt or track through deer or cattle with out fear of being shocked. They will hunt the game I ask for not because they are afraid of being shocked but because they are trained to respect my comands without fear. If I am hunting a pasture with cattle in it I will keep my dogs close untill they run across some cattle, they will look to or wind some cattle and all I need to say is "get out" and they will hunt on by or through the cattle and not bark at a cow the rest of the night. Now these are the same dogs that I use to gather and bay cattle with during the day and sometimes at night. I can turn the switch on or off at my comand. I have watched my dogs keep hunting while dozens of deer run past or over them coming off wheat fields, they pay them no mind and keep hunting.  I have seen dogs broke with the collar that will quit a track at the first sigh of cattle or deer and run back to the handeler with their tail between their legs, thats fear in my book, and makes a dog less bold and confident.

Now I spend alot of time with my dogs ( I use them in my work almost every day) and this can't be done overnight, and yes, you can over do the whip just like the collar. If you need a quick fix for a dog that you don't spend much time with then the collar is your best bet, but it will not produce dogs with true handle.

Paul T

[Noah]

That's exactly what I was trying to describe about the difference between shock collar dogs and non shock collar trained dogs.  Glad to see I'm not the only one that notices a difference.  Being a horseback would certainly allow for quicker reinforcement than on foot.... man I need to start carrying a horse...  problem is, I'd need to carry fence pliers for all the doggon fences

[craig]

silverton
 thats great that you can use your dogs every day, and yes you can get a" true handle" on dogs that you have raised and carry with you every day.but most people these day arent that lucky they un-snap the chain fri. night and snap it back sun. night and do it again next week.
 
 i have used dogs to gathered cattle most of my life and yeh i carryed a bull whip most of the time, the bull whip works great !
i have goten away from the whip in  the last few years especialy on my hog dogs becuase most of the time your in thick brush were you cant handle a whip anyway.
 
 the shock collar in good hands!!, is a good method especially for people who cant carry their dogs around every day or are trying to train 2 or 3 dogs at one time.
with a shock collar you can correct one dog at a time.
as far as dogs being leiry of off game because of being shocked is generally a sign(in my mind) of being shocked to much to try and break them.
all of the dogs i have now have been broke from off game with a shock collar not one of them cows down when you raise your hand around them, nor do they stop on a hog track when they cross the track of or encounter off game,such as tru cattle or deer.

 back to Noahs original post " Any and all methods of getting young dogs used to stock"
sounds to me like a dog that slips a collar and catches your riding horse on the back leg needs a shock collar.

                           thats my .02 and thats all its worth, stricly my experience, Craig