Questions?

[So Oklahoma Cur Dogs]

I have some questions about dogs and would appreciate some input from some experienced members.


(1) Do all dogs have to be broke off deer or are there some that just aren't interested once they learn what a hog is?

(2) How common is it for a nine month dog to find a hog stick with it a good ways and have it bayed when you get there with praticly no experience?

(3) If dogs mother was gritty and the father wasn't what are the chances of the pups turning out gritty?

(4) Are gritty dogs that way from the start or do they learn to be gritty with experience?

[matt_aggie04]

1-I know of plenty of dogs that never had to be broke off of anything, they learned what a hog was at an early age and that was all they needed.

2-Not very, I would hang on to the dog and keep hunting him and see what else he can show you

3-Flip a coin a few times and I think that will give you a good idea of the odds. 

4-I have seen it in several different ways.  Some start gritty and keep getting grittier, others start gritty and wise up and learn that they may not live long if they keep it up (these are the dogs that I like, tend to make SMART strike dogs) and then there are those that are not all that gritty but are always hunted with gritty dogs and pick up habits from their hunting partners and continue to get more and more gritty with age until that "one" hog ruins their day.

just my .02..........

[clint]

again i agree with matt on his response.

on question 2 i have had a couple pups that have struck their own hogs and bayed them, i dont think it is that rare for a 9 month old though.

[Mr. HG]

1. It all depends on the dog and how bored he gets and how you start them if my pup that hunts his butt off doesn't find something in a hour I better get him up and move him because he wants to run something bad breed up wound and wanting to go.2. It is  rare most pups have that kind of drive but don't have that kind of confidence he sounds like he is going to be the one.Most dogs are more packish I don't kknow if thats a word but you get my drift.3 50/50 4.A little of both If you hunt dogs that won't catch and he does hopefully he figures out he has no help and stops doing it before he get killed.I have a rough dog or two or three the best thing about them I run one of them with every hunt because they are going to try to stop that hog from running and I train all my dogs to shoot over thats what happen to Mr No Ears 2 stop dogs and that catch dog that barks over here and bites over there  Puma 44 mag. All this B.S ought to really confuse you good luck.Matt said it all on #4

[Bryant]

(1) Do all dogs have to be broke off deer or are there some that just aren't interested once they learn what a hog is?

I have heard people claim there dogs have never trashed, but have yet to personally see a pup (that hadn't previously been corrected for such) that wouldn't chase or bay whatever showed up in front of them.  In a young dog that doesn't know any better, "trashing" shows me something that I like!  Hunting dogs aren't born knowing the intended prey.  It's the handlers job (by whatever his/her chosen means) to let the dog know whats ok to fool with and what isn't.

(2) How common is it for a nine month dog to find a hog stick with it a good ways and have it bayed when you get there with praticly no experience?

I would say not that uncommon if the dogs been hunting for a while.  I personally do not, but some start their pups way young in the woods.  You ended your question with the phrase "practicaly no experience", so my response would be pretty uncommon.

(3) If dogs mother was gritty and the father wasn't what are the chances of the pups turning out gritty?

I have been told by many with a lot more knowledge than myself (as recently as last night speaking with Randy Wright) that just like with horses, in general a bitch tends to have a little more influence on pups than the sire.  Having said that, if the mother was a rough dog I would say the pups chances are very slightly inclined towards being the same.  It also depends on the breeding of the parents.  Unrelated pairs are bred based on average breeding, and the pups can easily be throwbacks up to ten or so generations back.  That's why you sometimes end up with a pup out of litter that isn't anything like either parent.  For example both parents rough and pup is stand back and bay type dog.  With linebred dogs, your breeding towards a specific set of traits and a lot less likely to produce offspring with traits different than those of the actual breeding pair.  Irregardless, it's still can be a toss up.

(4) Are gritty dogs that way from the start or do they learn to be gritty with experience?

I have seen a lot less dogs that were rough from the start grow or learn themselves out of it, than I have seen looser dogs grow rough.  A looser type dog may get a bit rougher with confidence.  Same thing with people...if your hesitant to try something new, then you do and find out you can, you become a lot more likely to try it again.  Dogs are the same way.  Be the action good or bad, they learn by experience.

I'm also a believer (although I know there are exceptions to every rule) that dogs don't learn a whole lot by being cut.  If you have a rough dog you would like to work on, your much better off working him in the pen with a docked boar or a rank sow and getting him/her a little worked over than injured.  An injury happens so quickly, that although the dog knows he/she is hurt sometimes I feel they might not know exactly why.  No different than a person in a bad car wreck that can't remember what happened. 

Again, I'm by no means an expert and I realize there are exceptions to every thought and belief I have.  These are only my opinions and personal observations.

[Mr. HG]

 I agree with about everything Bryant says but the female carring more of the controlling genes not and I think as pups go its pretty uncommon for a 9 month old to find run and bay his own hog I think that dog is going to be special.Most people hunt only maybe twice a week and how often does a pup do that not mine anyway and not most people I hunt with old and young.Maybe we need to trade our junk in and get some of bryant dogs if thats common for his I need some.We DNA typed  a few animals about 400 and its equal so far.50/50 dam to sire

[Flatbroke]

Mr. HG,

I agree that the dog is probably gonna be a special dog.  We were fortunate to have two pups like that in the early 90's one is dead and the other too old to hunt or breed.  I havent seen any since.  Post some picts of that dog.  I'd like to see it. 

[So Oklahoma Cur Dogs]

[Flatbroke]

Nice,  One of the dogs I was talking about belonged to Bigworm and had the same coloring. Pure Catahoula though. 

[Bryant]

We DNA typed  a few animals about 400 and its equal so far.50/50 dam to sire

I'm not talking about DNA.  Your correct in that the canine genetic makeup consists of 78 chromosomes; 39 from the father and 39 from the mother.  What I'm talking about is simple expressed traits.

We both also mess with horses so as an example, here's an excerpt from an article in the Feb 23, 2002 edition of Thoroughbred Times titled "New Technology: Genetically Speaking"

"...In horse breeding where very successful bloodstock agents spend their entire lives and stake their incomes on their ability to scrutinize pedigrees and predict the success rates of breedings, there is a very strong belief in the importance of the broodmare. Many breeders (some very prominent) believe that the broodmare somehow affects more than 50% of the success of the offspring, and I’ve heard some very successful dog breeders support that same contention. In horses the success of broodmare sires is carefully tracked and some sires do seem far more potent in passing on good traits through their daughters. “Secretariat”, a mediocre sire, has consistently ranked near the top as a broodmare sire. His daughters seem to pass on his good traits far better than he could directly. “Drone”, only an average racehorse and a soso sire has also been a top broodmare sire. His daughters are known to impart soundness and sturdiness into bloodlines that are often too fragile to endure the stress of racing."

Not trying to argue, just once again my opinion and this is a small portion of what I have studied along the way to conclude my opinion.

[Mr. HG]

Not trying to argue either but besides horses we show and collect semen,embroys and going to clone our first cow and we bred champion russian wolfhounds or borzoi.The vet I work for  we haven't seen that doesn't mean thats not true in his studies but I just didn't want someone new to get the wrong idea like a gritty gyp would most likely produce a gritty off spring its about 50/50 we think and again just an opinion.Thats a pretty old study to go by 2002. Thats back when people couldn't decide was milk good for you or not. Ha Ha Ha!!!!

[Wmwendler]

1.  In my opinion all dogs with a strong drive need to be educated on which game to hunt, and which are not to be hunted.  But there are different ways to go about it both reactive and proactive. (Reactive)One way is to wait for the dog run the wrong game and disipline them.  (Proactive) Another way is to limit the young dog to only the game you desire.  For instance let the old dogs find and bay a hog then bring the young dog to the bay and let them work and learn what the correct game is, so on and so forth untill the young dog is focused on the right game, then when you do give the dog his head so to speak and let him run loose all the time he is less likely to mess with the wrong stuff.  I prefer the proactive way and it works better for me by far.

2.  Not very common in my opinion.  But it is relative........In a situation where the hogs are easy to bay and not dog spoilt or have never seen hog dogs then it would be easier for such and inexperienced dog to find and bay a hog by its self.  My Monk dog found a hog(actually just stumbled on it) at 6 months, chased it and bayed it for a few mins then another dog got there.  Then the hog moved a bit into some very thick stuff and the Monk dog quit cause he lost confidence in the thick stuff.  I might say that he found and bayed a hog all by him self at 6 months, but I would'nt.   He was'nt actually hunting a hog just smelling around in the woods and tripped on a hog, then he quit.  But, I did'nt fault him because he was so young and lacking confidence.

3.  Its a crap shoot.  It depends so much on what you mean by gritty, what breeds, what where the ancestors of both dogs like, ect.  If both dogs are of the same breed or same type then your chances of finding a happy middle ground are better.  I Might better explain this with two examples.

Example 1....You have a Cur x pitbull dog and a Hound gyp and you breed them.  The hound gyp is not gritty and will bay 30lb shoats, AND none of her known ancestors were gritty.  The Cur/pitbull is very gritty, catches or tries to catch all hogs under 200 lbs, AND all of his known ancestors were gritty.  In this example there is no telling what you will end up with.  Some might be like the male and some might be like the female and only a few in between.  The fact that you are talking about three different breeds involved, and three different styles of hunting make it dang near impossible to predict.

Example 2....You have a Cur dog and a Cur gyp and you breed them.  The Cur gyp is not gritty and rarely gets cut, but some of her ancestors were gritty and some were not.  The Cur Dog is gritty and will put teeth on a hog to make him bay and has the scars to prove it, most of his ancestors were gritty but not all.  In this example you are more likely to have a predictable outcome of what the pups will be like.  Chances are most of the pups will be somewhere in the middle with one or two more like one parent or the other.  In this example both dogs have the same working style so even though they are two ends of the spectrum its still the same style and will "mix" better, so to speak.

In both examples you have one parent that you could call gritty and one that you could say is not gritty, but will have a completely different outcome due to all the different variables.

4.  In my opinion the grittyness of the dog has more to do with breeding, and a dog is born the way he is.  However, the dog can be influeced to some degree by hunting with certain types of dogs. 

Just my opinion.

Waylon