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Author Topic: Half tail to no tail dogs!!!!  (Read 4907 times)
charles
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« on: August 04, 2011, 02:13:40 pm »

For those of yaw that know or may know. Where did some of these dogs that are born naturaly bobtailed or halftailed come from? I know that some of the dogs that are in the fbmco have full tails to no tails. What dog breeds could this gene come from or could generation of docking the tails at birth send a signal to the brain telln it there aint no tail n the gene that tells the body to grow 1 is recesst through later generations n come out every now n then? Any ideas or facts from some of u oldtimers?
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 02:58:03 pm »

I say Visla Wink
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leonidas
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2011, 03:28:29 pm »

It prob started with a gene that clicked on or off. My only other guess was some body just breed shorter and shorter tails. I'm sure it didn't start with tails being docked and the gene thought. WoW thats a great idea.... LOL
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uglydog
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2011, 08:19:44 pm »

It comes from the catahoula ! Grin

good reference articles are on cats ceasle catahoula www.  http://www.bconnex.net/~langevin/html/bobtail_info.html
 Member of the “Natural Rearing Breeders Assoc.”

 
 The bobtail trait is inherited as a dominant gene. Only one bobtail parent is required in order for bobtail pups to be whelped. On average, when breeding 1 bobtail parent and 1 longtail parent, 50% of the pups in the litter will have a bobtail.

The bobtail gene can not be inherited as “homozygous”. Meaning that a bobtail dog can not carry two bobtail genes (one inherited from each parent).
The bobtail gene is inherited as “heterozygous”. Meaning that a bobtail dog has 1 bobtail gene and 1 longtail gene.
Therefore when breeding two bobtail dogs together, there will still be both longtail and bobtail pups in the resulting litter. On average there should be 50% bobtail pups with this breeding.

The bobtail gene in Catahoulas (as with most other Cur breeds) has a “variable expression”, meaning that the length of the bobtail can range from a very short stub to a ¾ length tail, although on the average the bobtail is from 1 – 3” in length.

A longtail dog from a bobtail parent will not produce any bobtail pups when bred to another longtail dog. If a pup does not inherit a bobtail gene from a parent then the trait is forever lost in that pup...it can not be passed on as a “recessive” trait.

Out of eight associations, only the NALC faults the natural bobtail.

The Animal Research Foundation was the first to register the Catahoula in 1951. The bobtail dogs have always been included in their standard.
Note: Mr. Vernon Traxler was the first to registered a bobtail Catahoula with the ARF.
Mr. Traxler - “Traxler Catahoulas” had been breeding bobtail Catahoulas since 1944. His first bobtail Catahoula was acquired in a trade with the Indians at Three Rivers, south of Jonesville, LA - a yellow, glass eyed female.

When the NALC started up in 1975, the bobtail trait was not faulted. This fault did not come into effect until 1985. In 1995 the standard was revised to make the bobtail a serious fault.

Most Cur breeds have the natural bobtail trait. This trait is accepted by the various Cur breed clubs and organizations.

Remembering Bobtails

by David Traxler

David Traxler is the son of Vernon Traxler, an “old-timer” in the world of Catahoulas.
For more information on Vernon Traxler see Tribute

  The first one I ever saw was when I was 6 years old. I walked out the  back door and there he was. Almost as tall as I was, kind of gray-black  with dark black spots all over. He had a white patch on his chest and  no tail. Both eyes were brown with lines of white running through them.  Almost as if they were divided like a pie. Part of his left ear was  gone, and an ugly scar ran from the back of his head, over his ear,  almost to the end of his nose.He had encountered a large wild boar when  he was still a pup, and obviously the boar had won. There had been many  battles with wild hogs as well as black bear since then. Old Bob wore  many scars.

  I would waste away the hot summer afternoons of my youth laying in  an old swing in the backyard. Bob would lie next to me. While my grandpa  would scratch my back, I would scratch Bob. As my little fingers would  discover a scar on Bob, I would raise up, take a long look at it, turn  to my Grandpa and ask, " What happened here Papaw"?   Then as my grandpa  would start the story, I would lay back down, close my eyes, and dream  of the great hunt my grandpa and Bob were about to go on.

  They all started the same. He got his first Catahoula from his grandpa  when he was about my age. His grandfather had settled at the mouth of  the Red River where it dumps into the Mississippi. He had married a  half French/ half Choctaw Indian woman and they had a trading post as  well as a ferry to cross the rivers. For a small fee, he would put up  travelers, ferry them across one of the rivers, or trade them something.   One fall, he traded 10 pounds of salt and a ferry across the Mississippi  River to an old Catahoula Indian, for a white female cur. She had light  blue eyes, several dark spots on her hips, three legs and was pregnant.  She had seen her better days, especially since a black bear had torn  off one of her front legs at the knee. Since the Indian had to cross  the river before high water, and he had several other dogs, with winter  coming on, and thinking that she would not be able to raise the pups  or hunt, she could be traded. On the other hand, my great great grandfather  needed a dog and since she was heavy with pups and bred to a half-red  wolf/ half cur male that the Indian had with him, the deal was made.

  Every winter, when high water came, everything was put on the ferry,  and they waited out the flood. They felt this was better than moving  to high ground because they always found a lot of stuff floating down  the river and he could still trade with the people going down river  to New Orleans. As fate was back then, winter came early and they moved  on the ferry before the old female had her pups. Two weeks later she  had four puppies. One died the next day, the other three lived. One  blue female was traded the following spring to a Choctaw Indian for  two pigs, one red female was traded to a half breed for a white female,  and the other, a black leopard male with a white chest a partial glass  eye and no tail was kept and named Bob.

 So was born the ancestry of the present day Bob.

  My ancestors as well as Bob's enjoyed many great hunts.  I got to hear  all this every time before Grandpa would tell me how Bob got the cut  that made the scar. The rest of the story seems to fade from memory  but the one thing that they all had in common was that Bob made a mistake  and paid for it with some kind of a cut.  Once I ask my grandpa if he  and Bob had ever been on a hunt that Bob did not get cut.  "Sure they  did," he said with a half smile, but that was the easy hunts, and they  seem to be forgotten in time. That's the way they are supposed to be.  Any dog could make the easy hunts; it was the hard ones that you work  for that would always be remembered.  Each one of those scars was lessons  in Bob's life that he had learned. Any dog could survive the easy hunts;  it was the hard ones that made him good. The trick was to not only being  there for the hunt but survive for the next hunt also.

  It was not easy being a Catahoula Cur. Not only did they have  to catch the animal; they had to catch them in such a way that they  would live to hunt another day. These things were not taught, they were  learned by instinct and by mistakes. When I got my own Bob and hunted  the same swamps that Bob's ancestors and mine had hunted, I encountered  many, many wild animals. Sometimes Bob couldn't hold them for me. Sometimes  he would not catch them when I wanted him to. Sometimes I would become  angry because Bob let them get away.  As I got older, I realized just  how good Bob was. He survived all those hunts as well as my temper so  he could hunt again.

  Bob gave me a lot of good memories; I cried the day he died. I buried  him in an old Indian mound close to where Choctaw Bayou runs into the  Tensas River.  Maybe I'm crazy for spending so much of my youth on the  back of a horse in a Louisiana swamp with a dog.  Before he died, Bob  gave me many things. Patience, Understanding and Perseverance were among  them. And how to survive and hunt again!

  That was many years ago and I thought this was the end of the story….I  did not think I would ever own another Catahoula; not after Bob. But  the spring of 1999 would bring me back to my youth. While playing on  the Internet, I found a web page by Don Abney. My parents had lived  next door to Don for many years in Abita Springs, Louisiana. One thing  led to another and I ended up at Mary Langevin's web page. There on  the Internet was a dog that looked exactly like my old dog, Bob! I waited  for what seemed like ages, but was really only a few months, for my  bobtail pup to be born. He will remember the many great hunts that I  went on with my first Bob and the many great hunts of our ancestors.  The smells of a swamp, the scent of a trail, the loyalty for his master;  he will already know these things, for all this knowledge has been passed  on to him.

His name will be Bob.

 
 
 
   
 
   
 
   


 
 
 
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GET.LOW.CURS
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2011, 09:46:52 pm »

that is a neat story... really enjoyed it... thanks for sharing
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 10:34:35 pm »

great story crystal  i enjoyed it  Smiley  not to long ago i found about a breeder around B.c.S  that raises them , i didnt know that there was a bob tailed  cat .
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 10:40:29 pm »

haha! you must be talking about tha breeder we got Moto Moto from,   THomas loves a - bob tailed dog, and I have been fortunate enough to start several nice ones for that kennel,  Cheesy
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2011, 11:14:24 am »

Well I've wondered about this myself for a long time, now I finally know....cool.
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charles
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2011, 01:48:28 pm »

So ur telling me all these bobtailed yeller curs are the descendents of them spoted cats, that some how got mingled in with a real cur! Grin  . I guess im gonna hav to sell these cat/bmc muts n go hound if my dogs ancestors r catahoulas.  Angry . There has to be another line of dog that has a bobtail other than a cat.
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2011, 02:14:43 pm »

alot of mt. curs are bob tailed . they were the fist cur dog of the settlers .
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AW
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2011, 02:38:04 pm »

Here is what i was told, The bob tail gene goes back to the English Cur dogs brought over from England that started the different Cur dog breeds. While some tried to breed the bob tail gene out of their dogs others tried to hold it or simply didn’t care. There was a half-tail dog named Crook that belonged to J.E. Beavers that was bred to some Wrights dogs so like said above he could have bred away from it but looks like he chose to keep it in. I dont know if its fact or fiction just saying how it was explained to me when i asked the same question.
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charles
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2011, 02:44:41 pm »

Ilike thst answer AW, better than the story told above. I do got a gyp thst has a couple dogs out breavers n nuttings. I would hate to think my dogs had cat in them. Wew, what a relief.  Thanks aw
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2011, 02:45:14 pm »

I was just joking about it coming from the Catahoula, but Catahoulas are an original AMERican Bred to otriginate with it. If you go to that link I posted it tells alot more facts about other breeds and bob tails too.
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2011, 02:54:45 pm »

That was pretty interesting i didnt know that a long tail pup out of litter of Bob-tails will not have bob-tail pups if always bred to a long tail dog.
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2011, 04:20:56 pm »

alot of mt. curs are bob tailed . they were the fist cur dog of the settlers .

x2...I thought the bmc and the cathoula had mtn cur in them... Huh? Grin

I raised quite a few mtn cur with a 2 inch bob tail to 3/4 tail. I tried to breed it out but never could. I read an article where just 1 vertabrae missing will make it a bob tailed dog and will pass that gene on. Missing one vertabrae still looks like a full length tail. That might be the reason I never succeeded in that department...
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2011, 07:19:21 pm »

It comes from the Native American Indian tribal dog that was crossed into just about all of the dogs that were brought over from countries from the six flags that explored, dont beleive any other dog is actually a American original by definition, if you look up National Geograpic magazine there is a article about the small fiest type dogs that have been discovered in artifact digs dating 2000 years and earlier, some apartently were eatern and some used as hunting/camp dogs as their bones are found in camp site digs and some paintings on cave walls that have survied.  After you read all of breeder sites hype and alleged facts its apparent that nobody has got the time date type and breed of dog that originated the strains of dogs we know as catahoula, lacy, blackmouth cur, those are American dogs, a hodgepodge of various breeds that came from overseas and were crossed or mixed with what ever was here or left here.  Reason i usually laff at the history is they can not back up the facts.  The boats that brought the dogs to American reflected what dogs that expedition brought, it parrels the history of the horses in the USA, the Mustang is really just like a catahoula, a lacy, a blackmouth, plott etc, all mixed up with confirmation and colorwide.  I think the N G Magazine scientist dnaing those Native dogs discovered that there were some native small type dogs still exsiting in Ga running wild in the 1980's.  I base this on common sense, you can not go to a reference book of dog breeds in europe and point to a Black mouth cur, a Catahoula cur, Lacy, most hog dog types prob came from Mastif/Greyhounds and whatever other dog the french and spanish left here and got crossed up with everything but red wolves as some suggest.  I have had bob taled rat terriers for over 50 years, the long tail to long tail can and does ocassionally produce bob tailed dogs, I have never seen the missing vertabra either, you cant beleive about 1/2 of the stuff you read on the web.  Just look at that post the other day about red wolves breeding hog dogs???  Ever seen a red wolf with a bob tail?Huh? lol  Ducking now
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2011, 07:43:21 pm »

Here is where i think the bob tail really came from, this is the guy that discovered the wild population and matched the dna, the pictures etc, there is a recreation for money of these dogs by some idiots but they look like huskys and are not the dogs this guy found at the dam/lake site for the federal gov and dnaed.

A University of Georgia biology professor named Dr. I. Lehr Brisbin (or Brisbane) first discovered a pure population of primitive dogs living naturally in the United States Department of Energy’s Savannah River site in South Carolina. He studied and monitored this group, which closely resembled the wild Dingo dog of Australia. He and other scientists discovered that their bones were virtually identical to those of Neolithic dogs found in Native American burial grounds dating back thousands of years. These dogs are thought to be direct descendants of the ancient pariah dogs that accompanied the Asians across the Bering Strait land bridge some 8,000 years ago. Some of these dogs remain in pure-breeding feral packs in the swamps and piney woods of the Savannah River Basin. Great care is being taken by scientists and enthusiasts to protect them from human influence, some of these dogs pictures showed bob tails some long some 1/2 etc.
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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2011, 04:05:02 am »

Hey knightStockterrier. Can u post the ng link please? Oh n uglydog, the story u posted is good. Im just givn them cat owners a little friendly trash talkn. If i couldv afforded cats when i first started back into huntn i wouldv gotn'm instead, but i'll stick with me yeller dogs now. But please post any links for more reading please
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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2011, 05:50:44 pm »

Knightstock, I believe you that there were dogs here before settlers and all and we don't know everything just yet. I believe the Catahoula was one of the first domesticated breeds thats was uniform and intended to have a particular purpose and uniformitory or a standard originated in America. I could be wrong.

I used to not favor the spotted dogs much either and picked at them every chance I got. I could not find a yella dog I liked much either and always had mixes and brindles dog, mostly ugly dogs taht worked, Now days we have 4 Cats and only one of them has spots, one is yellow and two look like reverse BMC, lol so I get a kick out of it too
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