Starting a pup - trash breaking question

[Circle C]

What are y'all's thoughts on trash breaking a pup?  I have heard a few people mention letting a young dog bay anything it wants, then worrying about breaking off trash at an older age.  At what age would you begin correcting a pup for baying off game?  Or do you correct them from the beginning?

[dabutcher]

good question and gonna get a lot of different answers.  the most frequent response i've gotten is once you've shown them a hog a few times and they know what it is and what you are wanting from them, then it's time to start correcting them for baying something other than a hog.  not really a set age but more to their progression in training.   

i've asked this question many times to different people....

[grunterhunter8]

We put a Shock collar on any dog that's new to the woods....mainly for cows. We start with verbal "get out" and if they need a little extra motivation then we use the collars. Haven't run across dillos, coons, skunks, etc. often enough during the starting stage so have to use the "get out" for those type of "trash" if they start to bay. In my experience, if you put them on hogs early enough and keep them seeing hogs, they figure out what it is they are supposed to be going after.

[Mike]

When they're puppies and running around the yard, I don't mind them baying the horses or chasing squirrels, rabbits, etc... but when they go to the woods the trash breaking starts immediately.

[khoghunter27]

Circle c I think it would depend on the pup, me personally I like to let my pups get started good and hard on pigs before I start break them of everthing else. Say for instence breaking off cattle once they are bay good on hog several times then I take them on a long lead though a herd of cattle if they bark at them I call them off
then take them back to a hog let 'em bay there heads off to teach them what I want them to bay on and what I don't want them too bay on.  JMO as of age there really is no certain age because different dogs turn on at different ages.

[matt_aggie04]

For what it is worth, this is my puppy rule book.
1) Show hog at the house and make sure the pup will bark at hog and is not scared
2) Cut puppy loose to dogs that are already bayed on hog 2-6 times from the mule
3) Hunt pup only during day light with a shock collar behind no BS kind of dogs ONLY
4) Do what I can early on to catch the hog the pup is bayed as quick as possible on for the next several hogs
5) Get to bay and depending on weather let the pup bay for a while and make sure he is going to stay bayed for a good while
6) Eventually take his help away and put them in situations where they HAVE to perform or hog will not be found
This is the ideal way I like to start a young dog.....I like to think they get trash broke by wanting to bay hogs only...
MG

[cward]

I agee with matt but I would be careful with shck collars seen A guy from san jacinto county that breeds his dogs very well had agyp pup 11 months old smoken the woods down casting and finding hog like you could not beleave I was very impressed.Well there was no hog sign one day she jumped a deer he shocked her and she quit she is 2 years old sitting in an old mans yard after that she would not leave your feet.NOT saying all dogs are that way just becareful.

[uglydog]

I believe all training begins at home. I have a yard full of critters, and the word "No" & "get -Out" come early as they start pestering the chickens and goats. I am also teaching them to load up ride in the truck and learning to be social with dogs & people. I don't start putting them in the woods until they are nearing a year of age, and that is too late of a start for alot of the "basics" IMO, such as "NO" and socialization things. If they bay the Goats & Mules from their kennel, that is acceptable, but once they are loose in yard they have another set of rules, My RULES, They get into the pasture and chase the large animals most likely they will not live to be a year old, Donkeys and Mules don't have much tolerance for pesky pups. after 6 months of age they may get introduced to hogs, or allowed to run around the outside of hog pen before that, but I don't put to much effort and worry into pups trying to be "all that" before 9 months prefer to wait, and when they are a year old they get to go to the real woods with the big dogs wearing a shock collar, I will allow a short chase on some animals,because they have to see what some things are and get a scent of them to know what it is, such as deer and cattle, but a bark or more out of sight with it gets them a slight collar stimulation, that they have already had atleast once in the yard so that it does not FReak them so bad that they quit everything.

[Monteria]

For what it is worth, this is my puppy rule book.
1) Show hog at the house and make sure the pup will bark at hog and is not scared
2) Cut puppy loose to dogs that are already bayed on hog 2-6 times from the mule
3) Hunt pup only during day light with a shock collar behind no BS kind of dogs ONLY
4) Do what I can early on to catch the hog the pup is bayed as quick as possible on for the next several hogs
5) Get to bay and depending on weather let the pup bay for a while and make sure he is going to stay bayed for a good while
6) Eventually take his help away and put them in situations where they HAVE to perform or hog will not be found
This is the ideal way I like to start a young dog.....I like to think they get trash broke by wanting to bay hogs only...
MG

I use this method with some modification.
1) Show hog at the house enough that the dog wants to bay a hog, knows that its supposed to, and has fun doing it (3 to 6 times maybe)
2) Hunt one pup at a time behind one or two NO BS kind of dogs ONLY (the kind that you want the pup to turn out like). On a property that is lenient about pups barking at cows.
3) If the pup bays on cows, I catch it and redirect its focus back to the older dogs and hunting (push it along).
4) The pup should learn to hunt hogs and leave cows alone over time, through repetition.
5) IF the pup gets to the point that it hunts hogs but will still trash on a cow, and I think it should be past that, THEN I break out the shock collar.
6) Eventually take his help away and put them in situations where they HAVE to perform.

I don't turn pups out to a bay (especially not with the catch dogs) because I have turned a cur into a catch dog that way and because I like to walk when training pups.
I do not use an E-collar on a pup that does not yet know to hunt because I want to minimize the potential of tempering its drive.

Steve

[Wmwendler]

Krystal and matt and cward got some good advice.....mainly matt's #2 rule keep them up untill you have a hog bayed and do that for 6-8-10 hogs even more if you want.  Most of the sure nuff hog dogs Ive been around were started this way and it does'nt take away from thier hunt at all like you might think.  Letting a dog mature first like krystal said does wonders some people say you can wait too long but I dissagree with that you can wait till 12-13 months for a real hunt with no problems it will do more good than harm.  I want to Show them a hog or two tied to a tree (not in a pen), put a handle on them and let them mature before I put them in the woods.  Think of trash breaking like a head ache.....If get a head ache I'm gonna drink some water and try to relax first see if that works before I down 6 Ibuprofin.  Same goes for the shock collar get out scold the dog maybe a pop or two on the rear and back on the lead untill a hog gets bayed.  Try that before you try the shock collar, but if that don't work then maybe some stimulation will help.

Waylon

[matt_aggie04]

Good points there Waylon, I would also like to add to what several have touched on and that is I never "burn a dog down" 2 or 3 on the tri-tronics is usually all that is needed and the occasional 4 but only nicks with it while saying "get out".  I want them to associate that feeling with the sound of me saying get out.  I don't ever even want to shock one if he can't hear me saying get out for that reason.
MG

[Eric]

I do the same as uglydog. IF you do any research on training working dogs the FIRST thing they say is OBEDIENCE. IF the dog doesn't have the mental capacity to sit... there is no use going any further with training. NO and Get Out and are some of the first things it will learn.

As soon as they understand the commands I start on trash breaking. I take the pups riding with me to check cattle or what ever and every time we go past cattle, deer or what ever I say "No, get outta there". If they are real focused on what ever I get in there face and swap at their nose to break the attention off the trash and get it back to me... the one giving the commands.

I have a dog right now that I got when it was 3 mo old. Bayed hogs its 2nd time in the woods, never saw a hog prior. It will be a jam up dog if I don't kill it before it gets a year old. I will never take another dog and let it hunt before it is solid on handle. I am training as we go and its twice the work.

This is just my opinion, there are tons of ways to raise dogs. I am of the thinking that no matter what I do... teach it to fetch, sit, trash break, what ever... if that hinders the dogs hunt the dog wasn't much count any ways.

[Bryant]

Trashbreaking should start when the pup starts hitting the woods, but not before the pup has showed interest (I sparingly use a bay pen) and has been showed that baying a hog is accepted behavior.

You take a pup to the woods for the first time and shock it for baying a cow, all the pup thinks is "I barked and it hurt!".  Do they really posess the mental capability to distinguish between what's okay to bark at and what's not when they've never done it?

I agee with matt but I would be careful with shck collars seen A guy from san jacinto county that breeds his dogs very well had agyp pup 11 months old smoken the woods down casting and finding hog like you could not beleave I was very impressed.Well there was no hog sign one day she jumped a deer he shocked her and she quit she is 2 years old sitting in an old mans yard after that she would not leave your feet.NOT saying all dogs are that way just becareful.

cward, I can see exactly what I described as being what happened with this dog.

As far as handle on young pups, I honestly could care less.  The most important job of my dogs is to leave and find a hog.  When I start a young dog, if he/she won't at least leave and go look I'm not wasting my time teaching it to sit, stay, fetch or whatever.  People don't realize that every time you get a young puppy out of the kennel and play with it, pet it, or whatever you are conditioning that dog to stay near and rewarding it for a behavior you will be posting here later trying to figure out a way to correct.  Call me crazy, but I try not to put a hand on my young curs until they are hunting well and I believe as a result I have NEVER had a problem with pups leaving out with the older dogs.  I want my dogs to operate like machines with only one objective in mind.

I am of the thinking that no matter what I do... teach it to fetch, sit, trash break, what ever... if that hinders the dogs hunt the dog wasn't much count any ways.

Eric,

While I agree with some of your points, I (respectfully) strongly disagree with the above statement.  I know there are probably some that exist, but in my years of hunting I have NEVER seen a dog with a handle like you describe that was a deep or long-range hunting dog and honestly I would pay to accompany someone on a hunt to see such a dog (then probably try to buy some pups!  )  What you describe not affecting the dog is the nature aspect, but the nurture side weighs heavy also (as has been discussed on this board ump-teen times)

If people flip over to the "dog trade" section, there are ads posted almost every day looking for "long range" strike dogs.  Personally, I don't think the genetics are near as scarce as the knowledge to not mess up a good prospect from the start, and what I have found more times than not is that those desiring a "long range" dog are really just looking for a dog that will leave their feet and go hunt.

Just what works for me...

[cward]

Some people don't understand how a dog should work I now I payed for my education the hard way alot.It is hard to explain how you do it because you might miss one little detail on what you do.But maybe guidline will help some.I have been in the situaion were I took a pup that I gave away at six weeks old and took it it back to start it because the guy was messing her up boy I should'nt of done that she made twice the dogs mine were but it was for a good cause.Maybe circle c can get some guidelines off this thread and go by them.

[uglydog]

Alot of this discussion can be really messed up by someone reading without knowledge of the fine line between both the "handling" and "the less handling" debate.

I know I can't personally sit and write a complex detail "how to book" of how I work my dogs, besides that it won't work for everydog, or every person, and I am not gonna sit here and tell you that my way is better than any other, It is just my way. I handle alot of different dogs that belong to others and I study and learn from them as much as they are learning from me.

I definately don't have "Obedience title" on my pups, but I don't have wild unruly dogs either, Temperment and Bloodlines PLAY a MAjOR role in what dogs require alot of handling and which ones should not be "loved" on. I hunt the dogs that I do, because I don't have to worry about having a relationship with the dog affecting their desire to go hunt. Now that being said I found it very hard to go buy the pup that fits "my way" just right, I had to raise them to be that way, lts of trial and error along the road to where I am at now, and I am not changing, but I am still progressing.

I too have seen many dogs "spolied" to desire attention from their handler, I have also seen dogs that take twenty minutes of chasing them around the truck to get them caught after the hunt was over because they have not had enough handling - Two different types of dogs- that is what it bolis down too, most folks getting started don't know enough about reading a dogs temperment to know what is best for the INDIVIDUAL dog, and then there are some that just cant keep from touch and petting a dog that might have the potential if the owner would leave it alone and let it do its job.

There are some dogs that once the get the objective there ain't nothing gonna hold them back, there are dogs out there that need encouragement and conditioning and also make GREAT dogs, but IT all boils down to finding the dog to match the person doing the handling if you don't start right, most likely it won't end up right.

I JUST wanted to clarify some of this to folks that may be reading this thread becoming even more confused then they already are.

[cward]

Correct!!!!!! What she said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

[craig]

 Chris , here is what has worked for me on my line of BMC.

im gona start at the begining so this might get kinda long, anyway,,,,

since i raise my own pups i will keep a whole litter. once they are about 12 weeks old i will get a shoat in a gage and let the gyp bay it, after a few times most all of the pups are baying to some extent, after the pups are about 4 mo. old i will put them in my round pen and let them bay the shoat loose, just a few pups at a time. by this time they have just seen a hog 5 or 6 times.

 and since the begining my kids have been hauling these pups around on 4 wheelers go carts wagons, and running all over the place.
my dogs get alot of social interaction when they see you ,they come running. i want my dogs to like people.

by the time my pups are 4 to 5 mo old (or sooner) ,they are baying horses , cows (when they come up around the house),frogs,and anything else they are courious about.  now i start telling them to "get out."(not rough just make them get back and go on)  by this time i have to put them on a chain or pen them up.

i turn one or two pups loose at a time and take off on a 4 wheeler and drive down thru the cows, i will have a older dog running loose
too, if the pups want to bay at a cow i just say "get out" and keep driving they will come on with the older dog. if they dont i circle back and drive in between them and the cows and tell them "get out",, after a couple times they just go right on past the cows.

at about 6 mo. old i will take my more advanced pups to the woods on a short hunt, i will have a shock collar on them , if they bust off on a deer i will tell them to "get out" and if they dont respond i will tell them again and give them a little shock really light.

 to me this is a fine line, you have to use some common sense and not over due the shock collar , just a little bump is all it takes especially if your other dogs are'nt going with the pup. they will come back really quick.

pretty soon they figure out thats not what you are after.

i will rarely shock a pup on its first trip to the woods,if he runs a deer on his first trip it usually not very far.

Just a mental note:  all of the pups i have raised that wanted to run a deer pretty hard have always made my longest range dogs after they were older and broke from deer.

 as far as shocking a dog i will make darn shure i see what he is running before i shock him. so they may get to run a few before i get my chance to bump them off.

i will only take one pup on a hunt at a time(along with my old dogs) , and always have a tracking collar and shock collar on, i may not use the shock collar for 3 or 4 hunts but i dont want them to get collar smart .

by the time they are a year old they are going out really good and i have picked me one or two, and sold or give away the rest.
its not they are ruined or anything i just pick off the top end to keep.

my dogs will wear a shock collar until i feel like they dont need it anymore...

i have some long range dogs and i have raised them all this way and i feel if a dog has enough confidence in himself he will stay hooked.   i have a gyp that is 10 mo. old now and when she was 6mo. old she went over 2 mi. with the older dogs and stayed till we caught the hog.she has went out  500 yrd and more hunting on her own.

this has worked for me on my dogs and has consistantly produced dogs i was happy with.
  
i hope there is something you can use in all of that.

pups baying at 4 mo.


 





  

[cward]

Good lookin pups Craig my pup get to run loose and get in everything I think it makes them mature faster.they bay horses.cows grasshoppers they have been known to even bay a turtle.But I think it is good for a puppy to get a lot of free time in the yard.

[craig]

cward
  thanks,,

  yeh, i have had some good turtle bayings here too.. lol   

i let my pups run loose as long as i can.