Cold

[T-Bob Parker]

Number 3,  Once the cross is made and you have a couple of super dogs you are going to want to breed this dog back into your line because he is such a great great dog but that is a lethal mistake .  Because he is still carrying that cold family gene in his gene pool and if he is bred back into his family the cold genes will find each other and pair off again and you are right back in the cold box two times over now .   This does not mean this super performance bred dog from a cold bitch cannot produce great great dogs it just means he should never be bred back into his family of dogs .  If you take this dog and breed him into another super line of dogs that are out crosses from his blood then you can start you on family of dogs off of this cross because the out cross you made with him is not carrying the same cold gene that he is there fore they cannot pair to deal you misery .



LOL Breeding is just like a road map it takes you to were you to go .  Its a puzzle you put it together right and you got a pretty thing you make pieces fit were they don't go and you got scatter bred bunch of noting .

I understand where your coming from, and Im not gonna laugh it off or be a smart ask, I'm pointing this out for clarity's sake.
You just admitted that this dog shouldn't be taken back into his own family for the risk of doubling down on a cold gene. So my question is, Couldnt you have avoided this all together by not breeding his ol cold momma in the first place? Where I am coming from is, if you hit an emergency and are out of options, then sure, do what you have to to keep your head above water, BUT in my belief, breeding a dud is a mistake.
You would be knowingly installing faulty genes into your dogs.
There's no garuntee that a family bred super star doesn't have cold genes, but there IS a GARUNTEE that a cold dog or bitch does.

That's all I'm getting after. No offense, good topic.

[TexasHogDogs]

Sure T Bob that is the best way to avoid it  I agree.  I don't condone it myself but if someone had themselves a old time blood gyp that was cold what am saying is don't let her go to waste are if she is only one of a few left and is really cold take that gyp and breed her but know how first to better your odds .

What happened with this in the bulldog game was just this .  The gyp are gyps were so excellent bred but cold and the breeders didn't want to let them go to waste so they tried different things and found out that what I just wrote about up there.  Matter of fact I have had some really alot tell me that these cold heavy bred bitches made even superior producing dogs to the bitches that were great performance dogs and bred the same way .

I myself don't really know why this is other than what I tired to explain up there .  From what I know a lot of people would chit their britches if the truth was really told about how many bitches that were claimed to be great dogs that were really cold heavy bred family bitches and produced some great great dogs.  There was a lot more of this going on in the bulldog world that was let out .  Some of the dogs that came from these cold bitches were so superior that it has went on for years and this is why some lines of bulldogs produce so many cold dogs is because the secret was never let out and when the people got these dogs that come from these cold lines and didn't know it they tried to family breed them and ended up junking the whole yard .

Anyway man I understand exactly what you are saying .

[halfbreed]

  I know exactly what your talking on now tex  , no different than a heavily inbred line of game fowl . you get to a point in time and start getting runners but you take them hens off that running line and put under another family of roosters and you are back in the derby money  . been their and done that with a family of whitehackle chickens . I was gonna kill every one of them and start over till I got schooled by an old friend of mine . he gave me a cock off of his line of whitehackles to put over them hens and told me to keep the offspring and start a new line or gene pool to pull off of and to carry on   lol . but you talk about inbred I got a trio in 1979 and was still breeding them up until 1999 i'm surprised they didn't start coming out with two heads and four drumsticks   lol . but they had gotten to about half the size of regular whitehackles  .

[TexasHogDogs]

  I know exactly what your talking on now tex  , no different than a heavily inbred line of game fowl . you get to a point in time and start getting runners but you take them hens off that running line and put under another family of roosters and you are back in the derby money  . been their and done that with a family of whitehackle chickens . I was gonna kill every one of them and start over till I got schooled by an old friend of mine . he gave me a cock off of his line of whitehackles to put over them hens and told me to keep the offspring and start a new line or gene pool to pull off of and to carry on   lol . but you talk about inbred I got a trio in 1979 and was still breeding them up until 1999 i'm surprised they didn't start coming out with two heads and four drumsticks   lol . but they had gotten to about half the size of regular whitehackles  .

There you go Halfbreed thank you.  I bet them suckers were bad to when you first made that cross !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Everybody wants to think breeding  is different between each performace animal but it is not you are after one thing the win and a great performace animal .

The best way to avoid all of this is don't think you have the world by the ars with your breeding program and think you can just breed your line forever and ever with never introducing a outcross from outside blood are don't think its just gonna heal its self from within the line because it aint !

In other words don't be kennel blind and let that Ego breath !

[Corey]

Number 3,  Once the cross is made and you have a couple of super dogs you are going to want to breed this dog back into your line because he is such a great great dog but that is a lethal mistake .  Because he is still carrying dthat cold family gene in his gene pool and if he is bred back into his family the cold genes will find each other and pair off again and you are right back in the cold box two times over now .   This does not mean this super performance bred dog from a cold bitch cannot produce great great dogs it just means he should never be bred back into his family of dogs .  If you take this dog and breed him into another super line of dogs that are out crosses from his blood then you can start you on family of dogs off of this cross because the out cross you made with him is not carrying the same cold gene that he is there fore they cannot pair to deal you misery .



LOL Breeding is just like a road map it takes you to were you to go .  Its a puzzle you put it together right and you got a pretty thing you make pieces fit were they don't go and you got scatter bred bunch of noting .

I understand where your coming from, and Im not gonna laugh it off or be a smart ask, I'm pointing this out for clarity's sake.
You just admitted that this dog shouldn't be taken back into his own family for the risk of doubling down on a cold gene. So my question is, Couldnt you have avoided this all together by not breeding his ol cold momma in the first place? Where I am coming from is, if you hit an emergency and are out of options, then sure, do what you have to to keep your head above water, BUT in my belief, breeding a dud is a mistake.
You would be knowingly installing faulty genes into your dogs.
There's no garuntee that a family bred super star doesn't have cold genes, but there IS a GARUNTEE that a cold dog or bitch does.

That's all I'm getting after. No offense, good topic.

I can't say I agree or not, I don't know chit from chinola...but it sounds like a phrase I heard "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" If the cold phase is a matching of recessive genes, it would most likely be buried again by an outcross, until it finds its mate again. Not really a terrible thing especially if there is common knowledge of its presents, can be dealt with accordingly.

 Truth told? how many JUNK traits lay behind these dogs that we DON'T know about, and could rear an ugly head?

  I would take a superior performance (Carrier) over an above average (non-carrier just to say "I" eliminated that gene) everyday of the week & Sunday. If it takes breeding a bred to hilt gyp that doesn't ACT THE PART to an outside male that (to this point anyway) is bred top end and defines his genetics......I'm in, for one cross anyway .  The chances of her producing straight culls is lower then anything I've read about lately.........and if you get a super high % of chit sniffers, your male is most likely a "carrier" also.   

On a flip side.......if a person wanted to eradicate this cold gene this gyp could be a huge asset to help determine carrier males?

Tex, this is a great topic like many that you and Rueben spawn. I am nobody in a mass of nobodies, so read it for what it is......a different perspective, & probably not right at that!
This kinda stuff is interesting. Its like a melting pot of okies & rednecks with art & science........my money is on the okies & rednecks through trial and error.

[bob]

yes tex this is a good post , but I really dont understand you , you ask the question but already know the answer , you are a vast of knowledge about bulldogs and breeding from what i have read on your post , no disrespect , I truely value your knowledge , are you just bored and feel like toying with the dummys or what lol

[TexasHogDogs]

That's what it is all about Corey is people discussing the times and experiences they have been threw and everybody throwing in their  knowledge, ideals and what they think to bring out new ideals and ways of doing things.  I know some think am full of chit but what I say I have seen you know what I mean.  Does it work all the time why hell no but I will tell you what I do ,    I do from my experiences from my time with the dogs and the people that I know and knew that helped me along the way.  I love this stuff  lived it, ate it and slept with it for a long long time.  No one man has market on breeding dogs there is always room for improvement and things to learn .

[TexasHogDogs]

yes tex this is a good post , but I really dont understand you , you ask the question but already know the answer , you are a vast of knowledge about bulldogs and breeding from what i have read on your post , no disrespect , I truely value your knowledge , are you just bored and feel like toying with the dummys or what lol

LOL Well I start out gonna ask the question and tell myself am gonna leave it on here a day are two before I say anything just to make things interesting and see what people think and have to say but damn man some were between asking the question and typing it down here I cant stand it and have to answer it myself most the time before most have the time to post .  Some probably don't like my answer but it comes from my experience.  LOL I guess am a Weirdo Lmao !

[Corey]

yes tex this is a good post , but I really dont understand you , you ask the question but already know the answer , you are a vast of knowledge about bulldogs and breeding from what i have read on your post , no disrespect , I truely value your knowledge , are you just bored and feel like toying with the dummys or what lol

LOL Well I start out gonna ask the question and tell myself am gonna leave it on here a day are two before I say anything just to make things interesting and see what people think and have to say but damn man some were between asking the question and typing it down here I cant stand it and have to answer it myself most the time before most have the time to post .  Some probably don't like my answer but it comes from my experience.  LOL I guess am a Weirdo Lmao !

Its nice to have thought stimulating topic, with folks that are comfortable enough to put it on the table.  So many people feel all this stuff is CIA certified TOP SECRET.  Every species of performance animal alive would greatly benefit for folks being straight out with each other............your preference may not suit me, but at least we could draw upon one another to potentially get closer to our respective "IDEAL".

[Reuben]

yes tex this is a good post , but I really dont understand you , you ask the question but already know the answer , you are a vast of knowledge about bulldogs and breeding from what i have read on your post , no disrespect , I truely value your knowledge , are you just bored and feel like toying with the dummys or what lol

LOL Well I start out gonna ask the question and tell myself am gonna leave it on here a day are two before I say anything just to make things interesting and see what people think and have to say but damn man some were between asking the question and typing it down here I cant stand it and have to answer it myself most the time before most have the time to post .  Some probably don't like my answer but it comes from my experience.  LOL I guess am a Weirdo Lmao !

Its nice to have thought stimulating topic, with folks that are comfortable enough to put it on the table.  So many people feel all this stuff is CIA certified TOP SECRET.  Every species of performance animal alive would greatly benefit for folks being straight out with each other............your preference may not suit me, but at least we could draw upon one another to potentially get closer to our respective "IDEAL".

yes Corey...once upon a time it was all top secret with me...all the dog meds that were for horse and cows that I used on dogs...

breeding my dogs was top secret...lots of folks back then thought that line breeding caused the pups to be born dumb and crazy and I just agreed...this long time dog breeder saw my dogs on a hunt and he was one of those that believed that old wives tale...he asked me if I was getting one or 2 good pups to the litter that turned out...I didn't tell him that the majority of the litter made hunting dogs...

but as I got older I have come to realize that sharing the knowledge will ultimately produce less culls for everyone...or is that getting older our priorities change??? 

[leonriverboy]

I understand the cold bitch breeding program. I realize why it will work in the game dog world.  My concerns in the cur hog dog breeding program are as follows:
 
1. You are dealing with many more traits you are attempting to improve on (speed, hunt, range, grittiness, bottom, desired size, nose, temperament, etc., etc.)

2. Being able to determine if a cur bitch is genuinely "cold", I think would be impossible, because of so many more traits you are working with.

I know very little when it comes to the game dog world, but it seems that you are only concerned with a few traits; game and strength.

Just seems that the more traits you are dealing with the less likely this type of breeding program would work.

[TexasHogDogs]

Reuben you are right on.  There was a time not long ago you could not have beat this info out of me like I talk about on here.  But times change and have changed so much over the last 30 yrs its unreal.  I have talked some about men that kept 100/150 dogs and some way more than that on their yards old time breeders.  People these days do not understand that its just the change of times and the change of people .  To me the greatest gen of people were the people from the 1900's to the 1960's hard core folks that played hard and lived hard fought many wars and made this country what it is today.  Hell it was noting back in the 40's 50's even 60's for dogs to be going at it in the streets with law watching and betting ,  coon hunts that lasted all week long .  People get togethers on the weekends at dances and in their own homes and farms playing music just a rasing hell the ole way.  Hot rods big blocks racing down every street ,  kids everywere outside durning the summers if they were not working on the farms and ranches they were playing football in the sand lots and baseball .  God was in schools and in the Gov. now you cannot even say a prayer without some kind of BS getting started.  This day and time they advertise birth control for 12 14 yr old girls on Tv you can flip threw any cable and watch shows with sex toys and then jump on the PC and with the touch of a finger a 15 yr old be watching porn and you cannot go down the road are anywere that a 12 yr old kid aint got a cell phone pinned to his head are they are texting 24/7.  Kids don't want to work anymore along with a lot of adults and no body wants to sweat are get their hands dirty .  Everybody wants everything with out having to do the work to get it and the worst part about it is they don't give a chit what it took to make it they just want it here and now .  I feel sorry for the younger guys these days that really want to learn to breed the dogs the old school ways because all they have is other know it alls on the net to contend with that is not much older than them and has not bred a hand full of dogs that is worth a crap but yet can tell you everything ya wanna know about the breeding programs .

Yup times have changed and Am afraid the old school ways that made these breeds of dogs so great and what they are today are changing and going down the tubes about as fast as our younger gen of people are .  You know I firmly believe that it is not God that is going to destroy this world again it is the people that live in it and all he will have to do is come behind them and clean it up when it is all said and done .

[chainrated]

I don't have time to read through this whole thread so I'll just answer your question directly as to what I would do IF I decided to breed a "cold " bitch..

1. I would only consider it If she was for sure a COLD bitch and would not start period.
2. I would breed her to an exceptional dog from another line.
3. I would NOT breed her back into my line of dogs.
4. I would never breed any of her offspring back into my line no matter how good they were..

I'd like to go more into it but I can't now.
Interested to see the responses on this one..

[chainrated]

Also the exceptional dog I bred her to would be from another line would be a tightly bred line of dogs.

[TexasHogDogs]

I understand the cold bitch breeding program. I realize why it will work in the game dog world.  My concerns in the cur hog dog breeding program are as follows:
 
1. You are dealing with many more traits you are attempting to improve on (speed, hunt, range, grittiness, bottom, desired size, nose, temperament, etc., etc.)

2. Being able to determine if a cur bitch is genuinely "cold", I think would be impossible, because of so many more traits you are working with.

I know very little when it comes to the game dog world, but it seems that you are only concerned with a few traits; game and strength.

Just seems that the more traits you are dealing with the less likely this type of breeding program would work.

Woooooo  Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee boy are you far far far away from the truth there dealing with many more traits and I don't mean this in a smart way just trying to get you to understand here.  I know you don't know and understand how the bulldogs worked and I know that is why you are saying this but no sir the complete dog was like finding a needle in the middle of the Atlantic.

LOL Well in the game dogs you have the same kind of thing and just as hard are harder to put together than a great hunting dog.



Number one and above all is Gameness but that does not win all the time you have to have style , ability , mouth, quickness, speed, wind, lungs, staminia , durability, types front end , back end, chest , gut , other types a defensive dog , a straight forward dog , a finess dog and it goes on and on and on .   Trying to put together the perfect dog believe me you can proably count out of all  the 100's of thousands are maybe millions  there might be a 100 are so that can be named the complete dog and

I bet there aint that many!

and in my 30 years of breeding I will tell you just how hard it is I only had 1 that was the complete  dog .  Sure there were some great ones but only 1 that fits that one in a million and that is 30 yrs with some of the best that lived ! 

[TexasHogDogs]

chainrated

Me and you are dead on bullseye with the way we think how we would do it  and what we would do , dead on man .