Son x mother

[cajunl]

Big difference in wild animals and domestic animals.

Domestic animals and selective breeding can vastly out compete environmental factors. You can change domestic animals very quickly. You can change the gene expression of  eye color, coat/hair color, hair length, size in one generation. You could selectively breed great danes bigger and bigger in south Tx.

It would take thousands of years to change a wolf from long hair to short hair. or long tail to bob tail just breeding to wolf.....unless you hybridize with dog.  Then it would not be a wolf anymore. The coyote basically hybridized the red wolf out of existence.

We have mapped the genome of the domestic dog. With CRISPR genome editing you would be able to express ANY trait you wanted. This will be the future in gentics.

[Reuben]

Many coon hunters talk about their pups that turn out to be naturally straight coon dogs…these pups won’t run deer nor will they trash much at all and we know most pups with lots of hunt will trash on deer and other game…epigenetics hasn’t been talked about in the circle of coon hunting but I believe the day is coming…

[Reuben]

We have no way of gauging the hunt drive because of the things we do to enhance the want to or hunting drive by the scenarios we create…so we can not prove if the greatness was all genetics or also enhanced by epigenetics…but based on common sense from previous examples and well documented studies we can and will see improvement…we just can’t prove it with solid documentation…

examples of well documented experiments…

A females environment can be manipulated to create a preplanned and radical environment change and she can pass on a trait or traits to the offspring females or males or both…and this can be passed from one generation to as many as three or more…depending on which experiment was conducted…

Same thing with the sires to the offspring…the same experiment with the females and males won’t produce the same results…

Some of this research was very surprising to me…it definitely expanded my horizons…

Like I have said before…the best defense is a good offense…breed and select accordingly…

[The Old Man]

We have no way of gauging the hunt drive because of the things we do to enhance the want to or hunting drive by the scenarios we create…so we can not prove if the greatness was all genetics or also enhanced by epigenetics…but based on common sense from previous examples and well documented studies we can and will see improvement…we just can’t prove it with solid documentation…



That's exactly why I don't hardly tinker with a pup until it is big enough to go, I get a better "reading" on his natural instincts and genetic performance traits. If it is all naturel and genetic he or she will be more apt to be a good reproducer when bred.

[Reuben]

That's exactly why I don't hardly tinker with a pup until it is big enough to go, I get a better "reading" on his natural instincts and genetic performance traits. If it is all naturel and genetic he or she will be more apt to be a good reproducer when bred.

I do not see it that way at all…I test for natural ability first and it starts with testing 8 week old pups and then I am looking for the one that tests the best…nothing complicated just keeping it simple…

Improving a bloodline starts with selecting the best pups…selecting those that have a nose that know how to use it…not from training but selecting those with natural ability first…

Natural ability is not just nose…it is the nose driven to work by the brain such as in winding, trailing and ability to locate…when we see those traits in a pup you can bet the brain is driving…thus selecting for all around abilities including the brain…these tendencies are telling us how the brain works in a pup…and one day we will see it in a hunting dog…anything extra is icing on the cake…
Not just in nose to brain but in locating and ranging it’s all the same…we can pick a pup and hope we picked a good one…or we can keep 4 pups that we like and eventually keep the best from those…or we can keep the 4 that tested the best and eventually cull from there…of course it is best to do any of this with an established bloodline…the end result will give higher percentages of better dogs with testing and imprinting…

Your way is not a bad way at all…I just try not to leave any stones unturned..

Is the glass half empty or is it half full? Neither side is wrong…

[The Old Man]

I turn all the stones as well but at a different time and a different way, typically get real good percentages if I have owned their ancestors and raised them here, largely due to having what been able to see what is  truly natural at an age when they can go on the real deal. You'll be able to solidify a good strain of dogs sooner with that sort of assessment since there will be some that don't  look good as at a younger age but start great when they are big enough to go. They make or break here between 8-12 mths.  Lots of folks would consider that too young to make a determination But I don't want any late starting dogs in the strain.

[The Old Man]

Really, a huge percentage of the young dogs I am associated with including hunting with other folks that are starting pups pretty much come here winding and trailing, I consider locating strictly a tree dog trait, locating the tree the game went up whether he winded it or smelled up the bark on the tree. If they are winding or trailing hogs when they get to them they have located them, and are expected to naturally bay them. The strains of dogs I have acquired or am associated with are naturally hard wind dogs, I just figured a huge percentage across the board winded well so no need to test for it. But "until" an appropriate age I cannot judge how cold a track he can move nor how fast a track dog he is, nor if he will stick on tough game that's trying to run him down on the ground. I see "lots" of dogs wind a "cold" track that has not crossed the road but is  several hundred yards off the road while driving 30 mph or more, that's why I say most I see and am around are hard wind dogs. Nobody that I know wants a foot print sniffing track straddling dog, I believe it to be the general consensus that folks want one that can move the track one way one time, that he didn't have to walk across to find and if it is a reasonable track get his head up and roll with it, and you just can't judge that at a few weeks old, granted an extremely cold track they will not move as fast as a better track.
There are no dogs here that I have "built" from the ground up and one breed of them I have raised and used for 40 yrs, I sought out a good solid strain of dogs that other smart people had bred up and solidified.

[t-dog]

Old man, I think I’m somewhere in the middle of yours and Reuben’s techniques. I
Like to start playing with them early but I don’t rush it for exactly the reason you said. 1 year old isn’t old, it’s still a pup in my book. A lot of times those dogs that come out of the gate like gang busters top out early or even burn out early. Those steady progressing ones will often make the best dogs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The Old Man]

tdog I did not mean to imply that I expect a dog to be finished by 12 mths old, but actually before that I do expect him to have all the tools in the box and the ability to use them on a regular basis, he must be a contributing factor by then and not a hitch hiker from start to finish of the hunt.

[The Old Man]

OH AND I HAVE HAD THEM THAT AT 12 MTHS OLD I THOUGHT WERE GONNA BE KEEPERS AND THEY CEASED TO IMPROVE OR WENT BACK WARDS AND WERE CULLED FORM THE PROGRAM.  OOPS THE CAPS LOCK WAS ON, NOT YELLING HAHA.

[The Old Man]

I do agree selection for breeding is very key, and if your breeding selections are good in a proven strain of dogs you don't have to be real picky about weaning age puppy picks, just grab the one you like or are drawn to. When it's all said and done the "PROOF" is in the puddin and if your puddin is good you won't have need to add or subtract very often. I usually know which pups are my favorites by 4 weeks old or even sooner just by gut feeling. Outcrosses can be very dangerous even if it is to an excellent strain of the same breed due to recessives. One bad cross at a "critical time" can be the ruination of a good strain of dogs. To maintain a strain of dogs for any great length of time you have to keep several on hand.

[Reuben]

Old man…I totally agree with everything you said except I like being very involved with the pups at a younger age…

[Goose87]

Big difference in wild animals and domestic animals.

Domestic animals and selective breeding can vastly out compete environmental factors. You can change domestic animals very quickly. You can change the gene expression of  eye color, coat/hair color, hair length, size in one generation. You could selectively breed great danes bigger and bigger in south Tx.

It would take thousands of years to change a wolf from long hair to short hair. or long tail to bob tail just breeding to wolf.....unless you hybridize with dog.  Then it would not be a wolf anymore. The coyote basically hybridized the red wolf out of existence.

We have mapped the genome of the domestic dog. With CRISPR genome editing you would be able to express ANY trait you wanted. This will be the future in gentics.

So where in the evolutionary chain of events do you reckon the dog and the wolf became separated, ENVIRONMENT would make the physical change happen much faster based on the environmental pressures present in the organisms life at the time, a naturally long haired animal brought from an environment suited for its phenotype to an environment that it's phenotype isn't suited for, within the next few following generations the coat length will gradual,y become less thick and long, this has been proven in the show cattle industry time and again, for that very reason big time showers in warmer climates  have commercial coolers installed to keep their animals in during the summer months to promote hair growth, cold temperatures stimulate hair growth, and given the amount of time it would take several generations to be born and live out their life span, it would be sufficient amount of time for the environmental pressures to start influencing cell and gene expression, there's more than one documented instance in which a family of dogs having their tails docked at birth, for generations and then in one generation shorter tails begin showing up in litters and if selected and bred for correctly bob tails become a genetic expression, dogs aren't naturally bob tailed so somewhere along their evolutionary time line environmental factors, be it man made or freak accidents, became so frequent of occurrence that a mutation took place,  yessir anybody with any little hint of knowledge of genetics could breed Great Danes or any other animal, to what ever size and color of their choosing, it's done everyday, that's a result of artificial selection and genetic manipulation, now you take those same xxl Great Danes those breeders in south Texas are known for and turn them loose in the wild to fend for themselves and let the natural order of things do the mating selecting  and I'll put my lucky marbles against your buffalo nickels that within 3-5 generations at the minimum there will start to become a phenotypical change in size within the population of the xxl Great Danes of south Texas, from one generation to the next until they level off in size to match and maximize what the environment has to offer them, let's all look at the bigger picture here, all those same things that you mentioned can be changed through selective mating is absolutely spot on, we most certainly can do that and we do, but have you ever given any thought as to how those various differences in coat color/length, eye color, size etc. all came about (in canines only), remember all canines descended from one original ancestor, the wolf, one base genome from which all dogs originated, I'm going out on limb here and say ENVIRONMENTAL INFLUENCES, which covers a wide umbrella of different factoring contributions, it's always been I front of us all along, the scientific community couldn't explain it so they just looped it into the category of evolution, which in actuality is changing to adhere to the ENVIRONMENTAL circumstances....



How does any of this EPIgenetics stuff effect the outcome of our litters, if it does at all, again I don't think it's a difference maker in taking thing to another level in one litter to the next, but just as in nature , only the smart then the strong survive, why are the survivors the smartest or the strongest, because they had that little edge over their competition, enough of an edge to survive to perpetuate that gained edge on to the next generation until that edge it had outlasted it's competition to become a set standard within the species population. By knowing your hounds and kinda knowing what to expect in your chosen makings all the little things that have been mentioned in all of these EPIgenetics conversations, that can and are done along the way of a pups development will eventually add up to become slight edge in advantage over its competition, however slight or vastly impactful it maybe, either way it's an advantage and in a game of life, where the end reward  can only go two ways life or death, that minuscule edge of advantage suddenly becomes game changing, this is all speculative theory and pipe dreams to most who will never raise the number of litters to ever see this first hand in life and that's all cool because the sun still rises and sets everyday just the same way it does for those that can open their minds and  be able to understand and comprehend the complexities and in the same thought the simplicity of the science in front of us...

[cajunl]

there's more than one documented instance in which a family of dogs having their tails docked at birth, for generations and then in one generation shorter tails begin showing up in litters

Please show me this documentation

[cajunl]

So where in the evolutionary chain of events do you reckon the dog and the wolf became separated

It is also believed now through genetic research the dog did not derive from the modern species of wolf. They derived from a separate genus Eucyon a coyote type canid. So the domestic dog is a cousin to the wolf rather than an offspring to say of the wolf. Similar to our human ancestors related to chimps and Bonobo's (Religious believes aside to not offend) The wolf also went extinct in North America( It became extinct with the other Megafauna of North America). It is believed the modern day wolf immigrated back to north america  roughly 12,000 years ago across the Bering land bridge....with you guessed it.....man and domestic dog.

It is believe now the domestic dog (via genetic research) came around 20,000 to 40,000 years ago in Asia and migrated around the globe with genetic markers developing with tribes and regions of people.

The Black coat in Wolves and coyotes today are all accounted to to domestic dogs crossbreeding with these animals. There were no black coats believed in wild specimens before then.

Dan Flores has some very interesting information about coyotes, Wolves and Domestic dogs in his books. They are worth the read. As are a lot of the universities genetic information on dogs. This is a good one.


Fossil Relatives & Evolutionary History Columbia University Press, Jul 3, 2008

[Goose87]

there's more than one documented instance in which a family of dogs having their tails docked at birth, for generations and then in one generation shorter tails begin showing up in litters

Please show me this documentation

Sure can and sure will it's called the c189g mutation, a very simple search of Google about this mutation or just tail docking in general will give a very brief history on how this gene formed for some breed ands others it's still not explained, and you taking my word on something is t very good scientific documentation, but I'll add it anyways, old man who lived several miles down the Rd from me raised blue healers for years and years and would dock their tails with a hatchet on a flat stump, one day he had a litter and was about to look them over and dock tails and noticed one had stump tail, he kept her and she never had any adverse health concerns and even produced two pups in separate litters later on that both had bob tails, again you don't have to believe my own personal account, but the science behind can't be denied, I knew another account of a man in Florida bob his dogs tails for years and out of the blue he started getting 3/4 and 1/2 tails on his fami,y of dogs, so if you still wish to know more, again the information is out there if we just dig a teeny weeny bit...

[cajunl]

You proved my point....genetic mutation. The only source that mention docking is wikipedia with no reference and refer to it as cruel...you make your own assumption.

To have a naturally docked tail they have to have the mutation......you can cut for centuries if the mutation is not there..... they will be born long tail.

Case in point....

Humans have been piercing ears for thousands of years
Humans have been circumsizing for thousands of years


Billions of sample size....Go to any hospital and human babies are born the way god intended( or genes expressed)for thousands of years all over the globe no matter environmental changes.

It will never change unless there is a mutation in genes.


I am done posting, We can discuss some other time on a hunting trip, your place or mine over a cold beer or glass of whiskey.

Enjoy your 4th with friends and family and happy hunting.

[Reuben]

You guys have made some excellent points…
For right now I will stick with crack mama’s and their babies born addicted to crack…based on this I see many potential possibilities…


Here is another curve ball on bob tailed dogs…a dog can appear to have a full tail and be a bob tailed dog…missing one vertebrae in the tail makes it bob tailed…

Keeping it simple…when I was 19 or twenty…I drank a 6 pack of beer and about 3/4 quart bottle of cheap tequila…I about broke myself from tequila because of that one time binge…I still sip on the high dollar tequila now and then because my wife likes top shelf margaritas…it took a long time to slowly develop myself to where it is ok to sip on the better tequila…

As kids every time we were sick with stomach or with vomiting we were forced to drink a 7 up…who wants to drink anything when you can’t keep anything down…

When going through training exercises with the pups I always think about the possible negatives that can set them back…and I stay away from that as best I can…

I also prep the pups as best I can so the training exercises are positive…we want them to want to do the training exercise, wanting to do the exercise means it is pleasurable to them that is key…some people just don’t get the simplicity of what has been said…

[Reuben]

So what is it about that bad tequila hang over that made me really not like tequila for years? I can keep it very shallow and say it was just a bad hangover and I just overdid it that night…
But what caused me to not like the smell or flavor for many many years? Drinking responsibly and in moderation more than likely would have eliminated the negative reaction or reactions…

IMO many different hormones went into overdrive…the proof is nausea, headache…just to name a few…I’ll never forget how that smell just wanted me to keep throwing up until it was only dry heaves…some of that vomiting actually came out my nose…all this just made me dislike tequila that much more…lots of hormones going crazy, negative chemical reactions throughout my body and brain…

The years that followed just the smell of tequila was repulsive…analyze the body and brain at that instance…that one negative episode caused all this for years afterward…

Now think of a negative scenario in training a pup…did it shatter its confidence and will the pup recover?


Just think of all the positives when making sure that the few things we do are for the better…the pups will do better…

Of course having the pups running loose and running rabbits and treeing squirrels on their own is hard  to beat but very few of us have that option…