Unplanned litter

[duece24]

good points boarninja..i think its a small person that will blame one dog and not the other when a dog doesn't turn out. hell maybe those two dogs just don't knick good.

i guess it's just a difference of opinion, and thats cool, i can have a yard full of dynamite dogs that i know when i make a breedign my %'s are going to be high, i will still won't cull a whole litter just because it isn't a planned breeding. like i said earlier YOU don't have to waist your time on them, give them to a young hunter or give them to someone that is just getting started. i was giving two to a guy near me out of my litter because he just lost two of his better dogs. i felt that my litter would be some good dogs so i gave him two so he didn't have to go out and buy some new ones. that's all that i'm saying, if the two dogs are good dogs that you would breed why cull a whole litter when their chances of making dogs are just as good as your PLANNED breeding? give them to people who would love the chance to work them...but to each his own..long as your honest with who you are giving them to and/or honest in your evaluation of that litter i see no need to cull a whole litter...

[Circle C]

Chris, I think there are hunters that take their time when choosing their breedings....18 months to 3 years between breedings unless they get in a bind. I personally think a big factor in breeding woods dogs (strike or catch) is not knowing how long they are gonna be on this earth. That could be a reason for breeding more frequently...

Scott,

A couple of good points. I agree that there are hog dog breeders that are taking the time when choosing their breedings, I would also have to say that they are the exception, not the rule.  As for the frequency of breeding, I agree too. The dogs I run are VERY loose baying, so I have been fortunate to this point that they are long lived, and I don't need to replace them as often as some might that are running real rough dogs.  I also only hunt about 100 times a year(average twice a week) so I don't need 20 dogs on my place like some, I can get by with just a handful. If I have a new prospect every couple years, then I should be good, barring anything unforeseen happening.

For someone breeding catch dogs, I can certainly appreciate the need to breed with more frequency.

[BarrNinja]

I think the pups should atleast be givin a chance to see what they can do,i mean a dog is a dog and ya never know might turn out to be something. And i think we all have the same goal in mind whether we are a Breeder or not and thats to catch pigs. and as far as spading a good gyp after Breeding her, i would think you would want to get more of her out there if shes good, we talk about the world being over populated with trash dogs, so would make sense to get better ones out there correct? jmo

I respectfully disagree.

The breeders I know are not satisfied with a dog that will "just" catch pigs. Is a race horse breeder just satisfied with a horse that can just run? I dont think so.

All this being said, I think folks would be surprised at how few accidents and unplanned breeding happen among responsible breeders. It happens but its very rare from what I have seen.
The few times I know of, depending on the cross, some litters were kept and some culled.
Its a judgment call to however it happens to. The more honest they are with themselves about the cross, they better off they will be in the long run.
 

[duece24]

you make serval very good points. i will venture to say that most of the people on here aren't "breeders" they may make a breeding but most people on here are doggers. when your main mo is to be in the woods you can prematurily put a gyp in heat back in teh woods. we don't do ti on purpose we just hate leaving them at home and we want them back in the woods, especially if they are a good dog. you are correct most of your "breeders don't have many accidents because most of your "breeders" aren't working their dogs.

what do teh breeders you know trying to do with their breedings? everyone i know is trying to get dogs that will catch pigs every time we cut them loose. race horse breeder is breedings horse that can run and win. our race is catching a pig, now everyone has a different style they like. THAT is a different story...i'm sure a race horse breeder would be happy with an accidental breeding if they got a horse that could run and win, but it may not win pretty..long as it wins...that's me...show me a pig i don't care how pretty you do it...show me a pig...i may not breed that dog but i can use that do to find me ppigs...every breeding isn't made to continue a line or to produce more great dogs...normally an accidentally breeding you r just looking to get some dogs taht will find pigs an stop them..i'm not really looking to breed those dogs...again different strokes for different folks...

[Circle C]

and as far as spading a good gyp after Breeding her, i would think you would want to get more of her out there if shes good, we talk about the world being over populated with trash dogs, so would make sense to get better ones out there correct? jmo

Boss Hog,
   I assume you are referring to me with this question, so I will answer with my reasoning.

First off, I should be clear that I  don't breed hog dogs for other people. If and when I have a litter, it is with purpose, and that purpose is to have a replacement pup for myself. I will give a handful of pups to a select few, so that if needed there is some bloodstock available down the line. The people that I choose happen to be my friends and hunting partners. That was the plan with a litter this spring, unfortunately I lost all the pups

   The type of dogs I am hunting, most probably would not feed, so to think that they would be bettering the hog dog world, would be kind of funny They work for me, and my only reason to reproduce them, is because they hunt the way I like, nothing more. One could argue that me providing pups to the general public that hunt like my dogs would be doing the hog dog world an injustice... So to be safe, I won't make any pups available to the general public.

   The reality is, that everyone has a different view of what makes a dog great, breeding worthy, etc. So what one guy thinks is a quality dog, may be an absolute cull to the next guy. That's what makes dog breeding so subjective. I say do what works for you, and don't lose any sleep over why someone else does what they do.

   If I go out and breed my best dog, and put the pups available, there will still be a large number of people that can rightfully believe that I am just adding to the trash in the hog dog world. because the type of dog I have reproduced and thought so highly of, was still just a cull to the next guy.




    

[BarrNinja]

you make serval very good points. i will venture to say that most of the people on here aren't "breeders" they may make a breeding but most people on here are doggers. when your main mo is to be in the woods you can prematurily put a gyp in heat back in teh woods. we don't do ti on purpose we just hate leaving them at home and we want them back in the woods, especially if they are a good dog. you are correct most of your "breeders don't have many accidents because most of your "breeders" aren't working their dogs.

what do teh breeders you know trying to do with their breedings? everyone i know is trying to get dogs that will catch pigs every time we cut them loose. race horse breeder is breedings horse that can run and win. our race is catching a pig, now everyone has a different style they like. THAT is a different story...i'm sure a race horse breeder would be happy with an accidental breeding if they got a horse that could run and win, but it may not win pretty..long as it wins...that's me...show me a pig i don't care how pretty you do it...show me a pig...i may not breed that dog but i can use that do to find me ppigs...every breeding isn't made to continue a line or to produce more great dogs...normally an accidentally breeding you r just looking to get some dogs taht will find pigs an stop them..i'm not really looking to breed those dogs...again different strokes for different folks...

I give up. I dont know any other way to make my point. I do however understand yours. The breeders I know breed for themselves and most of the doggers I know would have to quit their day jobs to hunt hogs as much as these guys do.
They are always breeding to reproduce the good dogs they have and improving those dogs when they can. Anything less will probably "just" catch hogs though.
Some folks just dont like to settle for less I guess.
Even the folks that I know that arent breeders but make breedings still want a dog as good or better than the dogs they are breeding.

[duece24]

boarninja i understand your points and i agree with nearly all of what you are asying...all i'm saying is that a young hunter or someone just starting out would probally love the dogs you just gave them. they probally pale in comparision to your planned breedings but there are manypeople that are just starting out that would love a free pup to train them selves..hell i was there not too long ago and i wish i could have had some of ya'lls culls....THAT is all that i'm saying...to cull a whole litter just cause it wasn't palnned when there are many people that would love to take one and make it a hog dog is an in justice to me...if i were a breeder i probally wouldn't have accidental breedings(much like you elluded to earlier)....i think it is best to say that we agree to disagree on what to do wtih an accidental breeding..many of you cull the whole thing...me i would rather give it to a young hunter or a newbie to try out(if the two dogs involved were good dogs..again if they aren't good dogs then i would cull teh whole litter).

[uglydog]

, Here is the major problem with your scenario( in my opinion,not tyrying to start an argument) not all pups grow up to be good dogs or even mediocre dogs. So you are giving away potential culls to young hunters for free. Yes they are probaly happy to have the dogs, but the young getting started folks spend two years feeding a dog and trying to figure out why their dog is not as good as so-&- sos dog. THey can't cull a dog they raised for 2-3 years, and because they probly have not been taught about the importance of culling they pass the dog on to someonbe else, or it has an accidental litter that the kids shares the pups with all his friends.

Now the New Scenario, a bunch of young kids are running around hunting, chasing and educating pigs with mediocre dogs. These kids could have startyed with a good dog from the beggining, hopefully got from someone reputable that passed down some knowledge about responsible breeding, hunting, and  keepiing records and tracking performance to build better dogs in the first place.

Now if this dogs have a record of their bloodline, and track record worth bragging about, then putting pups out there in  few folks hands might not be so bad if you are going to keep track, or if its friends requesting pups is one thing but to take a kid and say here you are a great dog this is gong to be when you yourself know its a crap shoot is not right to do to an unsuspecting kid.

[uglydog]

Alot of people don't care about where or what their dog is, and thats fine, but thye folks that breed that take the time to keep records and do the best they can to produce dogs that are better that the generation before, are doing it with purpose to produce better dogs. Many of those are culled to simply keep them in the wrong hands or being passed around and end up who knows where. tHe only way to get better is to take the time to keep up with thyem and find out what can be improved upon.
When someone is offered a free dog that was accidental that takes up a home and feed that could be taking care of a pup that has a real high percentage of being a good dog. Someone breeding the dog has a backgroud info and almost predict down to the day when the dog will turn out, how they will behave and when the will mature. Scatterbred - two unrelated dogs without recorded backgrounds, you are guessing and going with the flow to see what happens.
HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU BELIEVE REALY FIND "HAPPY" HOMES FOR THOSE PUPPIES, when they are given away?
How many end up on the side of the road? or taken to the pound? they go to the pound or a shelter they have a 75% or better chance of being put down, so whats easier and more responsible? Culling at birth or letting the course run?

[Rockin-P-Ranch]

Uglydog what would the males of our race do with out you females of the race to put things right. Just made the point that I was trying to say. Also would like to say that I breed for a reason. And that is to get one or two that I can keep back as replacements just like CircleC said. The rest are given to freinds.Pluse that gives me time to look at all the pups over a period of time.Duece24 if you know of a young person that is wanting to try a young dog.Have him contact me and I will be more than glade to try and help him out.And if anyone thinks that I dont hunt my dogs that I breed and hunt them regular. You have sure missed the boat there.

[duece24]

very excellent points uglydog...what i think everyone is missing here is that i stated if the two dogs aren't good quality dogs i would cull the whole litter. i agree that two dogs that aren't breeding quality dogs(mediocre) shouldn't be bred. i agree whole heartedly with what ya'll are saying here.

what i'm saying is if you have an unplanned litter out of two dogs that you WOULD breed why cull the litter if the two dogs are GOOD dogs that have the ability to produce GOOD dogs. i think ya'll gloss over that part of my posts. i'm saying in the scenario of two GOOD dogs gettting tied unplanned keep the litter and keep close tabs on them. if tow mediocre or even one good and one mediocre dog gets tied i would say to cull the litter just as you have stated.

i had a litter of pups that were linebred(didn't plan it but a half bro and a half sis got tied) i found happy homes for all 6 of the pups. one went to a janitor at my school that is training the pup for hunting and the other 5 went to kids i used to coach that are training them for hunting. 100% of the litter is at 6mos tracking drags and baying hogs. i feel that i've helped the hog dog world because i've brought five new people to the love of hog dogging. i've helped four young guys and one older guy(and his son) to get started that much faster and i've given them what i believe will be quality dogs down the road. both dogs are GOOD quality dogs, so i kept the litter.

just so happens that the dam of hoghunter979 is a full sister to my gyp. i will go on a limb and say that these pups will have just as good a chance as anyones plannd breeding to be above avg dogs. i base this off of my unplanned breeding and how well these dogs are turning out right now.

rocking p i would never question whether you work your dogs or not. if you say you do then i trust that. ive seen teh pics of your dogs and seen them in action through those pics. i actually was considering getting in contact wtih you  down the road becasue i do like the make up of your dogs. but i have to buy some more land before i can do that...lol

[duece24]

uglydog if two of your uglydogs got tied accidentally would you cull the whole litter?

[uglydog]

Deuce, I think that those litters do happen, I know that I have had my share. You were fortunate, in that you found six pups homes, and that you introduced new folks to the sport. I feel that way more people that have excess of pups, and I am not just speaking of unplannhed litters but this happen in planned litters too, that people claim they want a pup then when the time comes you are stuck feeding pups to 8 wks, then 12 wks and for what, to give to someone that  claim to want to hem & Haw about  coming and getting it?
Do you think that those are the kind of people that turn out to be responsible owners ? I am not trying to argue with you just wanting to share some of my experiences, that have led me to the point of where and why I think like I do now. I am planning a litter in the near future, Heres where you may get upset, but majority of the litter will be put down within minutes of birth. Its about supply and demand, I have a demand for certain amount of pups, I don't doubt all will make good dogs, but I am only placing thye dogs that will be in the homeas I have lined up prior to breeding and that includes my replacement dogs.
I feel a ceratin amount of responsibility for the dogs I bring into this world and then the offspring they produce as well. For instance, I placed a pup in apet home, those people whom I thought I erducated about hunting and breeding enough to trust decided to let their babies breed and place all the pups in pet homes, one generation away from completely ruining my reputation as the dogs went to crap in a hurry. That stirred in my gut for a few years now, I vow to not risk that happening again. How can I be sure?? well like plan mentioned above to assure only folks that a TRUST, will have the dogs that I care so much about.

[uglydog]

Deuce, I will answer, that I have had litters by accident and the dogs were placed in hunting homes. I am not going to say I am without fault because I have made more than my fair share of mistakes, and I would like to believe I have learned a little from each one. thats what I try to share with others to hopefully prevent others from making my mistakes.

I gave a scenario, and as far as my Uglies go, yes I will be culling the majority of the next litter(planned). I will keep a couple for myself and a close friend will have choice, and the rest will be gone.

Here is a scenario, you gave those students dogs, what age are those kids? driving age? Graduating age?
What appens to the dogs when they go off driving and running the rodas and chasing girls, and the ones that graduate and take off for college, what happens to the hog dogs? I know you had good intentions, and its honorable to give a kid something to do besides getting into trouble. I have seen all that happen to dogs I produce, and I wonder will I do it again?

[duece24]

Those kids are of driving age. One just graduated one is a soph one is a Sr. Will those boys go chasing girls I hope so. But I also know those dogs are going to be hunted. I talked each one before I gave them a pup. I gave them pups BECAUSE they were good canidates for hog dogs. All of the boys have family in the country to where the dogs will still be hunted. I didn't just give them to anyone that wanted one. I made sure the dogs would have a chance to hunt first, then I made sure the dogs were going to good homes.
When u have a planned litter and u sell a dog u can't answer the questions u asked me with certainty. Whenever a pup leaves ur place u s the best to put them in a home that will do right by them. That doesn't always happen but it is part of the game that we

[bignasty]

Bignasty, what if a young gyp gets bred on her first heat before you know if she is going to make a dog ?  Does she still need to be spayed?

i like fast maturing dogs by 8-10 months old i would know if the dog is a keeper and thats about the same time they would have there first heat.i dont recoment breeding that young,no but i would not cull a litter off my yard because it was not planned.

used to be a shot that would abort the litter dont know if its still ava .the spaying part is up to you.

[uglydog]

Good for you, I will personally pat you on the back for taking the time to talk with those people and hoping for the best, most folks don't takethat time or trouble, maybe if they did there would not be an overpopulation of unwanted dogs. Education is very important in my opinion.
I am that way with planned litters I have sold, not everybody even knows I have pups on the ground, and I am a pain is the azz to deal with I am sure because most probly think I have an attitude about my dogs, well I do. I want to be as responsible as I can, on the border line of being a control freak.

Next question to you not trying to pick at you, because I think this is a great conversation, I rarely get a chance to talk my opinion on this subject, so I do appreciate you taking thye time to converse with me.

What happens when those females come into heat? will the kids get them fixed, will the neighborhood basset cross breed them, will the pups end up as part of the dog overpopulation thyat the animal rights activist are whining about? its part of it too,what becomes of the offspring of the Free pups that get out there?

[BarrNinja]

Alot of people don't care about where or what their dog is, and thats fine, but thye folks that breed that take the time to keep records and do the best they can to produce dogs that are better that the generation before, are doing it with purpose to produce better dogs. Many of those are culled to simply keep them in the wrong hands or being passed around and end up who knows where. tHe only way to get better is to take the time to keep up with thyem and find out what can be improved upon.
When someone is offered a free dog that was accidental that takes up a home and feed that could be taking care of a pup that has a real high percentage of being a good dog. Someone breeding the dog has a backgroud info and almost predict down to the day when the dog will turn out, how they will behave and when the will mature. Scatterbred - two unrelated dogs without recorded backgrounds, you are guessing and going with the flow to see what happens.
HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU BELIEVE REALY FIND "HAPPY" HOMES FOR THOSE PUPPIES, when they are given away?
How many end up on the side of the road? or taken to the pound? they go to the pound or a shelter they have a 75% or better chance of being put down, so whats easier and more responsible? Culling at birth or letting the course run?

I happen to share this same opinion.

Good dogs are hard to come by even with planned breeding's. Feeding accidental/unplanned pups will usually just cost you a lot of money in dog feed and dramatically up your percentages of culls and "sub par" dogs in the end. Why would folks want to do that?
Everyone produces culls but the odds on ending up with a good dog dramatically get better when you stop counting on luck is all I am saying.

A person (kids included) can and will build resentment in the people that distribute them enough culls.

Just to clarify, I am not speaking of untimely, and experimental crosses here. There is a big difference and a different topic all together in my opinion.
I have gone one enough about this for now. People feed what they want to feed.

Hey! Lets not forget what the song says:
Old Yeller was a mongrel. A rotten, lopped eared mongrel. But still the best doggone dog in the West!

[Purebreedcolt]

This discussion is two total different spectrams of dog breedings the guys that have long lines of dogs and the guys that breed two good dogs.  In a lot of ways u can not compare the two.  I am of the second group but have a couple of line bred dogs in my yard both durn good and I hope to breed them eventually. My point is I don't think regardless od line breeding or breeding. Two good dogs if u take time and evaluate ur dogs and their ability ur not doint the hog hunting world a bad thing even with an accidental breeding but both dogs have to be proven.